Tol-in-Gaurhoth CXIV – The Evil Breath of Morgoth in Dor-lómin, game thread

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Kath

Actually, from what Lommy has said herself about her attitude towards the game, I could absolutely see a Lommywolf leading the charge and being entirely willing to take all the flack for it the following Day. What a great way to pull suspicion onto pretty much just one person. Even if she's lynched, if all the discussion has revolved around her and her actions at the end of yesterDay, it would surely leave fewer clues as to the identity of her fellow wolves.

I can't obviously say if I would play this brazen as a wolf too - perhaps, because like I said I feel more laidback about the game in general. On the other hand, it's possible being a wolf and feeling a loyalty to my pack would have made me want to avoid the spotlight.

I mean I certainly don't follow with Kath saying that if I was a wolf and lynched, the discussion being centered on me toDay would give you guys fewer clues about my packmates. On the contrary, it would be a freaking goldmine. In fact, even as it is, if you guys lynch me toDay, I want you to swear to look at the controversy I have created and look who jumped on it in an opportunistic way.

But that being said, I would very much like everyone to look at other people than myself toDay. I'm afraid the whole "is Lommy suspicious for spearheading the Sally lynch" debate is somewhat drowning out everything else.

I'm not the only one who voted yesterDay.

No one but me has even looked at the Legate kill.

Please guys, focus your energies somewhere else, at least a little while. Then you can decide who you vote. Frankly I understand why several of you suspect me, and perhaps I deserve to be lynched for how wrong I've been in this game, but I don't want to be lynched because getting innocent myself lynched would be about the worst conclusion to my track record in this game and I would not forgive myself for messing up that bad without having done anything constructive (that I can see the consequences of so far). I don't want to play anymore unwitting cobbler than I already have.

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Lommy my love - now this is too much. You seem to forget you were stomping all over the thread shouting at us about voting for Sally, we could barely get a word in edgeways!

Come on. I didn't force anyone to vote Sally yesterDay, yet most people still did. I don't have any magic manipulation powers. Yes, I was arguing quite vocally for lynching Sally. (Side note: so was Legate, a known innocent.) You guys could have let me yell at Sally alone and ignored me and voted for someone else. Yet you didn't. You can blame me for my decision that was bad in hindisight, but you can scarcely blame me for your own. The Sally lynch was not my doing alone, yet that narrative is very much being pushed. Do you know who benefit from that narrative? The wolves. Both the wolves who voted for Sally themselves, and even those who didn't, because it's making me an easy lynch candidate.

Originally Posted by Zil

No, but I can't see such zealous urging being the product of a mere "90%".

Then be careful how zealously you press lynching me toDay. Anyway, I would like to link as a proof a game where I was the ranger and Mac was a wolf (ok not the same as this, as I turned out to be right there) where I was super convinced Mac was a wolf, went on a crusade that made everyone raise their eyebrows, then Mac pulled a fake ranger reveal and out of spite I refused to counter-reveal because I didn't want to give him that snippet of victory and everyone thought I was deranged and I think I was even lynched (and Mac the next Day). Fun times. Not my greatest moment, but I have thought of that game a lot recently because it was a great warning for me not to pick fights with Mac (which I nonetheless did in this game). *blows kisses to Mac in the qt if he's reading this*

Originally Posted by Lalaith

No this is not true and quite careless of you, Lommy. I had in fact talked myself out of suspecting Legate due to his Hui vote and had been highly suspicious of Eonwe since my analysis post of hiim earlier that day.

I remember you backed off the Legate suspicion but I didn't remember you suspected Eönwë. Sorry, my bad about that one. The Boro and Brinn thing though, it really just adds to my general unease about some fairly commonly suspected names floating around in the lynch discussion yesterDay but garnering scarcely any votes. Why did you, for instance, vote Sally and not Eönwë, or Boro or Brinn? Had you done that as soon as you started voicing your misgivings about the Sally lynch, there might have been an actual option to lynch someone else.

Originally Posted by Greenie

I didn't think too much about it, to be completely honest with you. At that point, I was tired and had a headache (an actual one, not just a thinking-too-much-about-werewolf one), was pretty convinced that Sally was a wolf, and in general terms didn't think it likely that a genuine Hunter would want to drop hints at her role as this would effectively mean the wolves would be less likely to kill her, thus making her Gift useless. So with this combination of background factors, it did cross my mind that she was making a hint but I took it with such a big pinch of salt that it didn't really impact my decision-making.

Noted.

Originally Posted by THE Ka

Are you echoing Mac’s statement of the wolves trying to get the hunter out of the way early to bag an innocent in the same Day?

Hm, I'm not sure I understand this question, please rephrase if I answer the wrong thing. I simply thought claiming to be the hunter would be a quite cunning and in character move from a wolf!Sally, because (quoting myself) "a) the real hunter might be reluctant to challenge because it greatly decreases their chance to get to use their special ability and b) conversely, flushing the real hunter out is a big favour to the wolves, it's like flagging a landmine for them". I'm not sure it really depends on whether it's early or late in the game. Perhaps earlier is even better for wolves, but I wasn't looking at it timing-wise yesterDay.

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by Lommy

I simply thought claiming to be the hunter would be a quite cunning and in character move from a wolf!Sally, because (quoting myself) "a) the real hunter might be reluctant to challenge because it greatly decreases their chance to get to use their special ability and b) conversely, flushing the real hunter out is a big favour to the wolves, it's like flagging a landmine for them". I'm not sure it really depends on whether it's early or late in the game. Perhaps earlier is even better for wolves, but I wasn't looking at it timing-wise yesterDay.

Got it, that answers it more for me. Kath had pointed out earlier with a quote from Mac the previous Day where he had mused that the wolves if targeting a hunter would want them out of the way early since the risk of the hunter taking an innocent was high. Before knowing his role, this could have been seen as a wolfish way of laying a subtle hint to pack mates, but now it's just a villager concerned.

[Kath]

Originally Posted by Lommy

I remember you backed off the Legate suspicion but I didn't remember you suspected Eönwë. Sorry, my bad about that one. The Boro and Brinn thing though, it really just adds to my general unease about some fairly commonly suspected names floating around in the lynch discussion yesterDay but garnering scarcely any votes. Why did you, for instance, vote Sally and not Eönwë, or Boro or Brinn? Had you done that as soon as you started voicing your misgivings about the Sally lynch, there might have been an actual option to lynch someone else.

This is in response to Lal. Agreed, but there were quite a few others in the same boat. Who was still to vote after sally's reveal:

Lottie - 9.53
Lalaith - 9.55
Legate - 9.56 - known innocent
Shasta - 9.56
Brinn - 9.58
Rune - 9.58
Boro - 9.58
Mac - 9.58 - known innocent
Pitch - 9.59
(Lhuna - no vote)

The first vote after the reveal was Lottie's, half an hour after sally's vote, and that was with 7 minutes to go, and by the look of it almost every vote from then cross posted. Out of all 9 actual voters there, no one took the plunge of pushing forward another candidate fast enough. Very likely there are wolves who didn't want to be the first onto an alternative bandwagon who were watching the insanity with glee. But looking at the lateness of Legate and Mac's votes, who we now know were innocent, means not immediately throwing out an alternative doesn't automatically equal wolf.

[Kath]

Originally Posted by Pitch

Which is to say, even though they're free of evil intentions, our beloved quarantined may still be wrong and the baddies can hijack a vote for a non-wolf.

Agreed, but we're at two baddies and five innocents, so the baddies can't have the same level of influence as before.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Lommy

No one but me has even looked at the Legate kill.

I haven't had a chance to look deeply into it, but I've thought about it and read your analysis.

Legate seems like another safe, boring kill since it seems he was widely presumed innocent. But then again, why wouldn't the wolves try seeking out the seer? Unless they wanted us to think they were targeting the seer or they were worried that targeting a seer could implicate one of them. But it seems too risky to not seek out the seer - the longer they remain alive, the bigger the risk they are to the wolves.

So maybe the wolves did think Legate was possibly a seer who dreamed of Hui. I do agree that if they did kill Legate for seer suspicions, then that does put Rune in a better light.

[THE Ka]

(Sorry for delay, my work suddenly decided to have a conference call with all mgmt. and our tribe on gradually reopening businesses)

Originally Posted by Kath

Agreed, but we're at two baddies and five innocents, so the baddies can't have the same level of influence as before.

yesterDay:

Originally Posted by Lottie

Huh. QT votes for Brinn again. Do they actually want Brinn lynched, or are they repeating yesterDay's vote as a way to refuse to give us anything from Huin to guess about?

Having a chance to go back and begin reading everything that happened near DL yesterDay, I'm agreeing with Lottie's observation. I know we've joked about the repetitive QT vote, but I highly doubt we're going to see a vote like this to cover for anyone toDay. If Brinn is still in the suspicion for being a wolf and 'protected' by the dismissal of the QT as Zil pointed out yesterDay, I just don't see it swinging that way a third time. If anything for suspicion on Brinn, it will either allow them to return to a safe spot to hide or force them to be more forward.

Like Kath has said, it's the level of influence. Huin and G55, whatever they may be saying toDay in the QT, it's a fair assumption that Legate is going to be interested in what they were trying to cover from Huin previously. It also makes me suspicious that the wolves are going to be interested in waiting for the QT vote as well so we may see a last minute push of their preferred bandwagon.

It made me want to go back to Legate's #740:

Originally Posted by Legate

I think they are doing this to give us no info, plus potentially even discourage us from it (depending what Brinn is). Anyway, clearly messing with us in some way, that's for sure.

Breeeeep. Disagreed. I'd almost be tempted to shove it in the QT's face and vote her. But let's think about this for a sec.

Yes, this is one, fairly plausible, option, in my opinion.

From this we glean that Legate highly suspected the Brinn QT vote to be a cover, give us no information, and was almost tempted to do the opposite and vote for Brinn (which if there was some earlier plan before Hui ended up in QT to collaborate between the two threads to not give info and save Brinn, it would potentially force the wolves to decide quickly whether to abandon their current bandwagons to save Brinn or be forced to give her up.) A frantic situation like that two hours before DL could glean a lot of leads on potential wolves.
I know before when G55 had made the fake-vote idea, Legate mainly was interested in it due to this similar effect of disarming wolf-planning suddenly.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Lommy

Shasta -> Sally 8

"-shrug emoji-" From a person who was pretty loud that we should lynch Sally regardless of her role? Really?

If my, like, two posts stating a differing opinion to the majority qualifies as "pretty loud", what does that make you? Ear-shattering?

Originally Posted by Lommy

Thoughts: I'm not super keen on Lalaith and Shasta's votes, the former voting Sally without even saying whether she believes her or not, the latter voting Sally despite thinking it's a bad idea. Brinn's attitude towards the whole debacle looks super safe, but not necessarily sinister.

I explained that already - I'm used to Hunters that the wolves have to kill, and you had a point; wolves wouldn't necessarily have had to kill a revealed Hunter here. Although I do think, as I type this, the case for a wolf-Lommy going all-out to get Hunter-Sally lynched to take down a non-wolf grows... and makes Lottie look better, maybe? Hmm. Pin in that.

Back to my train of thought - I fully thought Sally was a wolf; leaving the Hunter to the wolves was an option. No one seemed to really go for it, so I was fine voting for Sally in the end. Hence the shrug.

X'ed since my last.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Ok. I've gone away, I've had a glass of wine and a think and here's what.

Maybe I should try this wolf-catching method too

Originally Posted by Pitch

[Incidentally: +1000 posts on D4? Whole games have played out on less than half that. This is really insane.

++tweet-style character/post-capped game

TIG CXV - The Liar Tweets Tonight?]

I'm looking forward to you and Rune co-modding this in June.

Originally Posted by Shasta

If my, like, two posts stating a differing opinion to the majority qualifies as "pretty loud", what does that make you? Ear-shattering?

Touché.

I actually went and read Boro and Brinn's posts on Lhuna, and now there's Kath's. None of them are sources I would take without a pinch of salt , but they all do have some good arguments for Lhuna being a wolf. Plus, there's the weird bandwagon roll call she never explained, plus her quickly pointing out then shutting up about Huey's wolf slip.

Might as well put my money where my mouth is and vote before the last chaos minutes:

++Lhuna


Lhuna -> Eönwë
Eönwë -> Boro
QT -> Lhuna
Inzil -> Lommy
Lottie -> Boro 2
Greenie -> Zil
The Ka -> Lhuna 2
Pitchwife -> Eönwë 2
Lalaith -> Lhuna 3
Lommy -> Lhuna 4

[Lalaith]

I remember you backed off the Legate suspicion but I didn't remember you suspected Eönwë. Sorry, my bad about that one. The Boro and Brinn thing though, it really just adds to my general unease about some fairly commonly suspected names floating around in the lynch discussion yesterDay but garnering scarcely any votes. Why did you, for instance, vote Sally and not Eönwë, or Boro or Brinn? Had you done that as soon as you started voicing your misgivings about the Sally lynch, there might have been an actual option to lynch someone else.

I've already explained and also mea-culpa-ed on this. See my post 905.

[Kath]

For the QT, my suspicions haven't really changed, because neither person has done anything to make me feel better about them.

+-Inzil
or
+-Lhuna

[Lalaith]

Sorry as my two posts were split and also probably not making my intentions clear enough for the cuties. :-)

I could vote Eonwe, Brinn, or Boro, (same as my suspect list of yesterday) and could also be persuaded to Lommy and even Shasta. (for easons see my posts above)
Sorry that is a rather messy list but I make more sense at weekends when I'm not at work and have more time!
Btw I was skim-reading as much as I could, looking for stuff Legate had said that could have made the wolves think he was a Seer.
I didn't find anything precise but i did find this: he pointed out that Hui's saving of Brinn looked wolfy. That makes me feel better about voting Brinn, particularly as Hui was a first-time and therefore possibly not very tricksy wolf.

[Brinniel]

If we're doing this early fake voting, my preference would be +-Inzil.

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

looking for stuff Legate had said that could have made the wolves think he was a Seer.
I didn't find anything precise but i did find this: he pointed out that Hui's saving of Brinn looked wolfy. That makes me feel better about voting Brinn, particularly as Hui was a first-time and therefore possibly not very tricksy wolf.

I'm getting really tempted to honour Legate's theory from the post I previously quoted, especially the new ratio in the QT now.

Originally Posted by Lommy

Do you then disagree that Legate was killed for looking like a seer? If not, who do you think they thought he dreamed of?

I'm going to have to ask the same Lhuna. Choosing him appears to be they were having a hunch on his role due to his relative safety and insights? If so, why not Pitch who was in tandem with him at points during the Huin vote. Or do you think he was chosen out of pressure and because of starting the Huin vote they thought he had some additional role insight?
Granted we've had issues with gifted roles revealing here and there, but Legate was pretty solid 'stop talking about it, the wolves can see' and agreeing with Pitch's reminder that the cobbler and innocents in QT don't have some magical reveal any more than we do on exactly who is what.

Just refreshed and I see x'ed with everyone. Sorry.

[Pitchwife]

Lalaith's suspects, as of yesterDay:

Originally Posted by Lalaith

I could vote Eonwe, Brinn, or Boro, (same as my suspect list of yesterday) and could also be persuaded to Lommy and even Shasta. (for easons see my posts above)[...]
Btw I was skim-reading as much as I could, looking for stuff Legate had said that could have made the wolves think he was a Seer.
I didn't find anything precise but i did find this: he pointed out that Hui's saving of Brinn looked wolfy. That makes me feel better about voting Brinn, particularly as Hui was a first-time and therefore possibly not very tricksy wolf.

Two of these (Eönwë and Lommy) were also quite consistently suspected by Lhuna, which could be a point in their favour. Now I don't recall playing with Lhuna before, so to those who have: How much wolf-on-wolf do you think she'd be willing to engage in?

[Lhunardawen]

Hmm. Interesting.


Well it's 3 AM here and I have work in 5 hours and I can barely keep my eye open, so I'll call it a night.

[THE Ka]

For referral, from yesterDay after QT vote:

Originally Posted by Legate

Also a quick list I made for myself just before I came back here:

Wary of:
Greenie
Lhuna
Inzil
Boro
Brinniel
Eönwë

Thought guilty earlier but think better now:
Lottie

Flip-floppy about:

Thinlómien
Sally
Lalaith
Macalaure

Nothing particular on:
Pitchwife
THE Ka

Feeling good about:
Kath
Shasta
Rune

Originally Posted by Lommy

For the record, he didn't single him out. I singled him out in my analysis. Because everyone else Legate called innocent he at least had some doubts about, or made a point in passing about how something they said could be suspicious. Rune is the only one he was unanimous about, but it was pretty vague.

I decided to go back, again, before my eye glazed over and try to find this reference to Legate's suspicion on Rune and discussion that Lhuna mentioned, because from this back and forth with Lommy I kept trying to figure out what the vital focus on Legate and Rune was.

Checked several posts with lists he makes, #667, #642, and then #632 which has the only direct mention of Rune that I can find. In it he is looking at votes for Day 2 and on the Rune topic for his vote for Lottie:

Originally Posted by Legate, post #632

Now depending on the context this could be anything: a throwaway, likely though not an attempt to save a packmate (too little momentum already and stronger bandwagons elsewhere). It looks mostly like an innocent going stubbornly after his own.

After reading it again, this supports Lommy's words more than Lhuna, which out of the two on trying to force the interest of suspicion, makes me a bit more wary of Lhuna's mounting interest in pushing it. Granted this could all be a possible fabricated tit-for-tat between the two, but I would assume both parties would have gone back and made sure the basis of the Rune-Legate connection checked out and not just one of them.

As for the QT and since Sally is the tiebreaker for their vote toDay (if I'm getting that right), back in post #724 Sally follows the theory that the QT vote is to be ignored since who is controlling it at that time. ToDay we'd have: G55 (cobbler), Rikae (villager), Kit (Ranger), Huin (Wolf), Sally (Hunter), and Mac (villager). I'm assuming Mac does count since he was lynchee ala Sally and not voted by the wolves?
That's 4-2 difference with far more insight and influence for innocents given the gifteds around them along with help from Legate. I find it hard that G55 and Huin could have thrown that vote to protect Lhuna and prevent us from picking her. So I can see Sally's stance changing but it gives me more reassurance she was at least aware yesterDay this could be a factor, along with Legate.

If I gave Lhuna the benefit of the doubt that she just slipped up, I still don't see it working in her favour as a wolf. It would be a gamble to put it all in Lommy's corner to argue and believe that none of us would go back and check Legate's posts for insights, let alone clues for who would want him out of the way the most if how it's looking the wolves thought he might have been a Seer candidate.

All this in mind, I'm trusting QT and going with:

++Lhunardawen

x'ed probably with everyone, been writing since 12:20 my time and haven't refreshed yet.

[RL - I have to step away now and check on family along with getting them to focus on travel plans before it's too late. Thanks again everyone for giving me a break.]

[Thinlómien]

...to see if people have already addressed issues I raised in my vote analysis post.

I'm somewhat worried to see that the timestamp of Zil's megapost against me is 8 minutes past the deadline. He spent the Night building an attack against me. I can't feel very good about this - even if given the amount of suspicion he's under, he could probably quite sure about his continued survival as an innocent too.

Originally Posted by Lottie

If I was a wolf, I would have been trying an awful lot harder to swing the vote Zil's direction, because I would have known for sure that Sally actually was the Hunter, and there would have been no motivation for me to lynch her. I voted for her because I thought there was an actual chance she was a wolf. If I really wanted to vote somewhere else, I could have pushed for Zil, who had also been suspected. In my opinion, the fact that there was no coherent alternative at all should speak to the idea that the people in Sally's crosshairs were not evil.

I'm still not sure why you were so convinced Sally would hunt you. Dare I say the p-word here? Hunters vote their hunt pick sometimes, but just as often they don't. I am somewhat thinking on the opposite lines to you here. Why indeed did no one really press the lynch towards Zil (or Boro, or Brinn - all three quite widely suspected)? Is that ecause they were somebody's packmates? (Not talking about Lottie here. I don't really suspect her, and she seemed to be fairly convinced Sally was a wolf until the last minutes.)

Originally Posted by Lalaith

For the same reason Legate did (we actually cross-posted) I got freaked out by the fact she didn't say who she was hunting. Up til then I'd been waiting on an agreed alternative to sally.
Coulda, woulda, shoulda.....Shoulda just voted earlier for Eonwe. Not sure if it would have helped though. Zil was coming up as an alternative with a lot of people but I didn't really feel enthused by that alternative bandwaggon - I felt similar about him as I had about Mac - couldn't quite see what all the fuss and suspicion was about.

Okay, I see this answers a question I had to Lalaith. I'm a bit unsure whether I buy it or not. It sounds genuine enough, but if Zil is innocent, then this could easily be Lalwolf admitting reluctance to get her hands bloody by voting him.


edit: xed with Lal, gotcha!

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Kath

Actually, from what Lommy has said herself about her attitude towards the game, I could absolutely see a Lommywolf leading the charge and being entirely willing to take all the flack for it the following Day. What a great way to pull suspicion onto pretty much just one person. Even if she's lynched, if all the discussion has revolved around her and her actions at the end of yesterDay, it would surely leave fewer clues as to the identity of her fellow wolves.

The other important thing to consider here is, Lommy is a very good player who is very good at arguing for her innocence. If anyone could get away with encouraging the village to quarantine a Hunter who was very likely to take an innocent with her, it would be Lommy. With five wolves, I could see them agreeing that someone should be playing loud and bold, and that Lommy was the best person to do it.

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Lommy my love - now this is too much. You seem to forget you were stomping all over the thread shouting at us about voting for Sally, we could barely get a word in edgeways!

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Come on. I didn't force anyone to vote Sally yesterDay, yet most people still did. I don't have any magic manipulation powers. Yes, I was arguing quite vocally for lynching Sally. (Side note: so was Legate, a known innocent.) You guys could have let me yell at Sally alone and ignored me and voted for someone else. Yet you didn't. You can blame me for my decision that was bad in hindisight, but you can scarcely blame me for your own. The Sally lynch was not my doing alone, yet that narrative is very much being pushed. Do you know who benefit from that narrative? The wolves. Both the wolves who voted for Sally themselves, and even those who didn't, because it's making me an easy lynch candidate.

I'm with Lalaith here - it was very hard to think and plan around Lommy arguing that we should just quarantine Sally yesterDay. There wasn't another voice arguing with you, so we all just ended up quietly doing our own things without coordinating at all, and a lot of that (from what I remember) was just not being able to coordinate over you.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I'm still not sure why you were so convinced Sally would hunt you. Dare I say the p-word here? Hunters vote their hunt pick sometimes, but just as often they don't. I am somewhat thinking on the opposite lines to you here. Why indeed did no one really press the lynch towards Zil (or Boro, or Brinn - all three quite widely suspected)? Is that ecause they were somebody's packmates? (Not talking about Lottie here. I don't really suspect her, and she seemed to be fairly convinced Sally was a wolf until the last minutes.)

If you pay attention to Sally's posts yesterDay (before the reveal), you'd notice that she really didn't have a nuanced suspicion list. She suspected me, Pitch, and Mac, as far as I can tell based pretty much just on gut feeling. I didn't get any sense from Sally that she had a deeper plan going on. I got the sense that she was too RL busy to have any hidden suspicions. And I had the feeling that I was absolutely going to be her pick, and that if I wasn't, it was going to be Pitch or Mac - two people who, at that point in time, I really didn't think were wolves. Turned out I was right - I was her pick until one minute before the deadline, and when she changed it, it was to another person who was very, very likely innocent.

[Thinlómien]

(and then I'm gonna take a short break because I've spent basically all day on this game, ugh)


Innocentish

Lottie - I don't like how she's been focusing on just me toDay, but I maintain that her last minute hunter panic, as well as her Huine vote, make her look more innocent than not.

Pitch - also looks very innocent thanks to his Huine vote. I mean I guess I could reconsider that, but not toDay.

Rune - I think the Legate kill makes him look very good, and there's nothing at the moment to make me second guess it.


Ish

Kath - nothing super sinister or super reassuring going on here. I got mildly suspicious of her being so non-committal yesterDay, but the Legate kill perhaps makes her look mildly better.

Greenie - I have got a lot more genuine vibe from her toDay than before, perhaps because she has been talking more openly about her emotions/ thought processes (frustration over having been wrong, admitting ignoring Sally's hunter hint because she suspected her etc). Still, her track record is about as terrible as mine, and it would be very ironic if we were BOTH innocent. I still don't like how she steered clear of the whole Huinescussion on Day2 though.

Boro - started the game weird, then started to sound like his normal innocent self. Explained this with meta reasons which I was ready to accept, thought him pretty innocent. However, his Mac vote is still a little concerning, as is the fact that like with Inzil (see below), the suspicion against him somehow seldom materialises as votes. I should probably reconsider my good feeling about him (which, to be entirely honest might partly be based on him not suspecting me) but I don't think I'm gonna do that toDay.

Lalaith - I keep flipflopping here. I still don't like her indecisive going with the flow yesterDay, and I think her Huine vote looks faily likely to be a wolf-on-wolf. But then again, could innocent Lal play this way? Absolutely.

THE Ka - still very much in her own bubble, which freaks me out a little. But is that enough reason to considering voting her? Ehhhh...

Shasta - mmmmhhh I still like him in regards to the Kit thing, and I like his independent thinking. But I don't like how he's now spent two days hovering around until the deadline and casting an absolutely meaningless vote. Talk about people who keep their hands clean. Possibly looks a tidbit better for the Legate kill though.


Suspiciousish

Lhuna - she is playing very safe and avoiding connections to most players. I don't like it.

Inzil - the next ??????? for me. I still don't like his Mac vote, and I don't like the way he's gunning for me right now, and I don't like how despite "everybody" suspecting him an actual zillynch has failed gaining traction repeatedly. Is it because a lot of the suspicion on him has been wolf-on-wolf? His weird vote yesterDay doesn't feel to wolvish though, and I am somewhat afraid he could be a very similarly misguided innocent as I have been. It would be all too ironic.

Brinniel - I am honestly quite puzzled how this game seems to orbit around her. She gets suspected, but never lynched. The evil QT have latched onto her (hopefully we'll learn more about that in three hours). If Legate had been considered seer, paranoid Brinn could have been behind that (just like with the Rikae kill, may I add). Everyone talks about her all the time but she is quite non-committal in her comments about people and keeps voting safely. Huine defended her in a striking way that could however be just as well wolf-on-wolf as wolf-on-innocent. If I would lynch anyone just to shed light on everybody's roles, I'd pick Brinn. But I'm not 100% she's a likely enough wolf that it's a good idea.

Eönwë - I can't quite put my finger on it, but my vibe of him in this game is very opportunistic and evasive, and he's been involved in several dodgy puddles (such as last minute voting in Huine-vs-Mac, or possibly his Sally vote yesterDay which I'd like to hear more about).


edit: xed with everyone

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Everybody sing along with me:

Dead innocents don't know anyone's role,
Dead innocents don't know anyone's role etc.

Which is to say, even though they're free of evil intentions, our beloved quarantined may still be wrong and the baddies can hijack a vote for a non-wolf.

No, they don't, but they have read Gal and Huine's interactions on the QT thread and know what lead them to pick Brinn yesterDay.

Originally Posted by Kath

The first vote after the reveal was Lottie's, half an hour after sally's vote, and that was with 7 minutes to go, and by the look of it almost every vote from then cross posted. Out of all 9 actual voters there, no one took the plunge of pushing forward another candidate fast enough. Very likely there are wolves who didn't want to be the first onto an alternative bandwagon who were watching the insanity with glee. But looking at the lateness of Legate and Mac's votes, who we now know were innocent, means not immediately throwing out an alternative doesn't automatically equal wolf.

Yes, but Legate for instance was quite convinced of Sally's guilt. Mac wasn't.

I'm getting more and more convinced it is not in the innocents' interests for everyone to leave their votes to the last minute. (Why do you think I've voted earlier than I had to 2 days in a row?) Dudes, let's learn from our mistakes and spread out the votes a little toDay, so we have time to discuss and react to each other's votes. Please.

Originally Posted by Lottie

The other important thing to consider here is, Lommy is a very good player who is very good at arguing for her innocence. If anyone could get away with encouraging the village to quarantine a Hunter who was very likely to take an innocent with her, it would be Lommy. With five wolves, I could see them agreeing that someone should be playing loud and bold, and that Lommy was the best person to do it.

Awwww, this warms my heart a little! But to be honest, I am a crappy and unhappy liar irl and it often shows in werewolf too *points at signature*

Originally Posted by Lottie

I'm with Lalaith here - it was very hard to think and plan around Lommy arguing that we should just quarantine Sally yesterDay. There wasn't another voice arguing with you, so we all just ended up quietly doing our own things without coordinating at all, and a lot of that (from what I remember) was just not being able to coordinate over you.

Then the question you should ask is probably why was there not another voice arguing with me? Why did everyone keep discussing Sally? Like it's been said, she revealed 45min before the deadline. Not as much time as would be ideal, but certainly plenty. Did the discussion loop around Sally because both innocents who wrongly suspected Sally and wolves thought lynching Sally was a good course of action? Then who was who?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I'm getting more and more convinced it is not in the innocents' interests for everyone to leave their votes to the last minute. (Why do you think I've voted earlier than I had to 2 days in a row?) Dudes, let's learn from our mistakes and spread out the votes a little toDay, so we have time to discuss and react to each other's votes. Please.

Or, so you and your mates have a little breathing room?

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Then the question you should ask is probably why was there not another voice arguing with me? Why did everyone keep discussing Sally? Like it's been said, she revealed 45min before the deadline. Not as much time as would be ideal, but certainly plenty. Did the discussion loop around Sally because both innocents who wrongly suspected Sally and wolves thought lynching Sally was a good course of action? Then who was who?

Ah, so it's the innocents' fault for listening to you?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Or, so you and your mates have a little breathing room?

After yesterDay's fiasco I'd think what Lommy suggests here seems plain sense, not sure why you'd react so strongly to this.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Ah, so it's the innocents' fault for listening to you?

There were a lot of other people involved in yesterDay's lynch beyond Lommy, so we could at least entertain the possibility that Lommy's initial suspicion of sally was innocent and some wolves picked it up and ran with it. Or would you rather lynch her now and worry about her guilt later?
I don't like this exclusive fixation on Lommy. If you think she's a wolf, who do you think are her packmates?


I actually think both Lommy and Lottie sound genuine to me. Taking a look at Brinn's and Greenie's posts from yesterDay right now.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Lommy

No vote: Lhuna Not much to say about that, but speaking of her: don't look at her vote tally of yesterDay, it has several errors.

The several errors you speak of is where I removed sally and Mac's votes since they're no longer of consequence. Apart from that, our tallies are the same.

[Lalaith]

After yesterDay's fiasco I'd think what Lommy suggests here seems plain sense, not sure why you'd react so strongly to this.

For my part, while I certainly don't want another last-minute panic, I would at least like to wait to see what the QTs have to say.
I haven't had time to do as much reading/analysis today as I wanted (busy at work). I've got various ideas of wolf combos floating about in my head but not enough time to sit down and plot them all in order to see if they stand up.
I feel still feel bad and somewhat dispirited about the shambles of yesterDay. Rune's term was "bummed out" and I know what he means.
So because I haven't had time to do new analysis toDay I haven't really moved on much from my suspect list of yesterDay. I could add Lommy on there - I admire her chutzpah toDay but I still think her behaviour was suspicious, particularly in her refusal to acknowledge the benefit of having HunterSally as a known innocent.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by THE Ka

[RL – Sorry for the long bit of silence, helping grieving family is always difficult the second day when shock wears off. I have some more time today so I’ll be catching up further. Thank you everyone for your words, I appreciate all of you. As for the Game, again, regardless of role and what’s happening in our RL let’s keep playing as a sort of solace in the storm. [/RL]

THE Ka <3 <3 What a lovely way to put it.

Originally Posted by Inzil

Or, so you and your mates have a little breathing room?

I have to say I'm with Lommy on this one. The last-minute scramble is a recipe for disaster, and also harder to analyse the next Day if everyone crossposts and votes in a hurry.

On a related note, I don't like the extent to which we are focusing on Lommy at the moment, and especially how Inzil has been pushing it since minutes into the start of the Day. Regardless of whether Lommyis a wolf or not, even regardless of whether we end up lynching her or not, we are only playing into the wolves' hands by focusing so heavily on one person. If Lommy is a wolf, she and her packmates are doing this on purpose to keep attention on her while the others sail by unnoticed (or are made to look better by crusading against her, *coughInzilcough*). She'd be more than capable of pulling off something like that, because, as Lottie said, she is a very good player and a better wolf than she gives herself credit for.

I'm off to have a quick look at Brinn now to try and figure out what on earth is going on there.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Then the question you should ask is probably why was there not another voice arguing with me? Why did everyone keep discussing Sally? Like it's been said, she revealed 45min before the deadline. Not as much time as would be ideal, but certainly plenty. Did the discussion loop around Sally because both innocents who wrongly suspected Sally and wolves thought lynching Sally was a good course of action? Then who was who?

I can only know what I was thinking and feeling at the time, which was of course clouded by my knowing that if Sally really was the Hunter, I was probably in real danger of being hunted. But I was so confused and overwhelmed that whole time. I wasn't able to come up with a coherent argument. I flopped between "she's the Hunter, I am absolutely not voting her, I don't want to die!" and "there's no way, she's gotta be a wolf, we need to just quarantine her". I could imagine that you might have just decided to go with the second option and not even consider that she might have been the Hunter. I could also imagine that you knew for a fact that she wasn't a wolf. But you definitely weren't reacting the same way I was, and the fact that no one else was able to make a coherent argument, either, suggests to me that my reaction - being confused and overwhelmed - might have been a really common reaction to have.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Lottie - I don't like how she's been focusing on just me toDay, but I maintain that her last minute hunter panic, as well as her Huine vote, make her look more innocent than not.

You're not wrong about this, though. I'd like to see more from Boro, and while Zil sounds more innocent toDay, I haven't forgotten about him, either. I'll do a list in a minute here, because I do think there is a danger of letting the quieter players just slip right out of view.

[Loslote]

Feeling good about:
I don't trust anyone this much right now.

Feeling okay about:
Pitch - Ever since his vote on Huin, I've felt pretty good about Pitch. He comes across as genuine. Also, I don't think Huin would have pushed that hard for the GLP thing if there was actually a wolf in it.
Kath - She's seemed engaged and helpful. I like what she has to say.
Rune - He's seemed more genuine lately, I feel okay about him at this point.
Shasta - He's done some things that are very innocent-looking, though he hasn't really gotten his hands dirty wolf-hunting yet, so I'm not going to fully trust him.

Feeling nothing about:
Lalaith - She feels very neutral to me. I haven't seen anything that jumps out as suspicious, but if she turned out to be a submarine wolf, I wouldn't be shocked, either.
Brinn - Brinn doesn't strike me as especially suspicious, but with all the controversy around her, I can't say that I have a strong sense of her alignment one way or the other.

Feeling dubious about:
Greenie - She's flown right under my radar somehow, but I think she's been extremely helpful without actually pushing the village in any particular direction, which makes me feel a little uneasy. I don't have her at the top of my suspicion list, but I can't say that I trust her at all.
Lhuna - She's been very quiet, which I can't exactly blame her for, but I haven't seen any proof that I can trust her, either.
Eönwë - I don't have much of a read at all, but he does feel like he could possibly be a submarine wolf.
THE Ka - I don't trust her, but I don't have super solid reasons to suspect her, just a feeling.

Feeling bad about:
Zil - I've felt better about him toDay, but I can't ignore the timing of his vote or the weird behavior yesterDay, in particular how he wasn't adding any new suspicions after his Mac vote, which just felt like a way for a wolf to avoid tying himself to his packmates.
Lommy - Her gleeful attitude at the deadline yesterDay feels too different from how I and others were feeling for me to think we're coming at this game from the same perspective. I also find it suspicious that she almost completely ignored Boro yesterDay in favor of focusing on Sally and Zil. I understand she had other reasons to suspect them, but to just not mention Boro at all seems like they might be packmates.
Boro - I've been suspicious of Boro for Days now, and his vote for Mac looks pretty bad. I also don't at all like that he asked me how I was able to convince Sally - to me, that reads a wolf whose pack decided I probably wasn't the Seer, but who really wanted to prod a little to be sure.