Lord of the Rings TV series gets multi-season order at Amazon

[Inziladun]

I wonder if this is indeed true.

I think I've been approaching the problem with this project from the wrong angle.

My worries have been mainly that the desire for GoT style success to generate huge profits would override any fidelity to the spirit of the source material.
However, there is a stronger force in play.

I have seen very many examples in recent years of things I enjoyed being remade and "updated" to reflect so-called modern and "progressive" ideas.

A streaming show on another network is doing its level best to destroy everything I admire about a great Star Trek character.

Is it remotely possible that Middle-earth as depicted in the new show will be recognizable as the beloved world in Tolkien's books? Or even that place Peter Jackson sees in his mind?

If Isildur is now going to have a have a sister, the broken-down examples I pointed at above dictate that he will be ground down and shown to be weak, so she can be that much more superior in every way.

Can the works of a man like Tolkien be allowed expression in their old form? Aren't they too full of male characters who don't deserve the spotlight? Don't so-called progressive messages impose themselves on every facet of entertainment today? Why should this be any different?

The pressure on the producers of this show must be immense. Yes, they want to make money, but they must do it the right way, by appealing to the right people. I don't think old-school fans whose first experience was to the books decades ago are in that group.

Yes, Hollywood. You've torn down Luke Skywalker in favor of a Mary Sue who didn't earn anything she got.
You made Jean-Luc Picard a weak old man, afraid to take decisive action and forever apologizing for being himself.
I really don't even care about Dr Who, but from what I've heard, the BBC has really taken a sledgehammer to everything old fans liked about it.

Again, what hope is there that Amazon won't go the same way with Tolkien?

I think I'm now going to stop paying attention to anything having to do with this rot. That way lies only sadness.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If Isildur is now going to have a have a sister, the broken-down examples I pointed at above dictate that he will be ground down and shown to be weak, so she can be that much more superior in every way.

Can the works of a man like Tolkien be allowed expression in their old form? Aren't they too full of male characters who don't deserve the spotlight? Don't so-called progressive messages impose themselves on every facet of entertainment today? Why should this be any different?

Isildur is weak.

Or rather, no. Isildur is three characters.

1/ The one who appears in LotR. He kills Sauron with his father's sword, takes the Ring, refuses to destroy it, and ultimately gets shot in the back while trying to sneak away while his soldiers and sons die. By this point, strong or weak, Isildur is a crown prince (and indeed High King), who must have come a long way from his life in Numenor decades before.

2/ The Silmarillion version, who gets nearly a whole paragraph(!) to himself. He sneaks into Armenelos and retrieves a fruit of the White Tree, nearly dying in the process. This is the strong version, though he doesn't "earn anything []he got".

3/ The version from the drafts, specifically The Lost Road. This one isn't even called Isildur - he's Herendil, son of Elendil, but he has the same narrative position. He's weak! He's practically a Sauron loyalist! "Is there a shadow? I have not seen it. But I have heard others speak of it; and they say it is the shadow of Death. But Sauron did not bring that; he promiseth that he will save us from it." In the notes associated with the text, he either winds up arrested by Sauron - or betraying his father to him.

If you want Isildur to be a character, not simply an archetype (good or bad), the only remotely Tolkienian way to do it is to combine these stories. He starts out led astray by Sauron and Pharazon - he finds his way to being the hero who rescues the fruit of Nimloth - and at the end he succumbs to the lure of Sauron's own weapon and power. He is weak - and then, through character growth, he becomes strong.

As to your comments about Tolkien being a man, whose male characters should be permitted to male in a manly fashion unmolested by women, well, a) , but b) Numenor is the place that idea holds up the least-well. Am I wrong to say it's the only place in the Legendarium where Tolkien wrote a fully fleshed-out story of conflict between men and women? He covered the same theme many times - Nerdanel, Yavanna, Haleth, and of course Eowyn - but the only one who gets an entire story to herself is Erendis.

Originally Posted by The Mariner's Wife

Men in Númenor are half-Elves (said Erendis), especially the high men; they are neither the one nor the other. The long life that they were granted deceives them, and they dally in the world, children in mind, until age finds them - and then many only forsake play out of doors for play in their houses. They turn their play into great matters and great matters into play. They would be craftsmen and loremasters and heroes all at once; and women to them are but fires on the hearth - for others to tend, until they are tired of play in the eve*ning. All things were made for their service: hills are for quarries, river to furnish water or to turn wheels, trees for boards, women for their body's need, or if fair to adorn their table and hearth; and children to be teased when nothing else is to do - but they would as soon play with their hounds' whelps. To all they are gracious and kind, merry as larks in the morning (if the sun shines); for they are never wrathful if they can avoid it. Men should be gay, they hold, generous as the rich, giving away what they do not need. Anger they show only when they become aware, suddenly, that there are other wills in the world beside their own. Then they will be as ruthless as the seawind if anything dare to withstand them.

Thus it is, Ancalimë, and we cannot alter it. For men fashioned Númenor: men, those heroes of old that they sing of - of their women we hear less, save that they wept when their men were slain. Númenor was to be a rest after war. But if they weary of rest and the plays of peace, soon they will go back to their great play, manslaying and war. Thus it is; and we are set here among them. But we need not assent. If we love Númenor also, let us enjoy it before they ruin it. We also are daughters of the great, and we have wills and courage of our own. Therefore do not bend, Ancalimë. Once bend a little, and they will bend you further until you are bowed down. Sink your roots into the rock, and face the wind, though it blow away all your leaves.

So Isildur might have a woman close to him who objects to him going to war? Who doesn't just let him go about his business, but has a will of her own and does not necessarily bend to the desires of men?

Gosh. I wonder where that idea came from.

hS

(PS: Curiously, there are actually two women of "Herendil's" age mentioned in The Lost Road: Almariel, "whose hair is of shining gold, and she is a maiden, and of my own age", who seems to be presented as his friend; and Firiel, "a maiden of [Elendil's] household, daughter of Orontor". Isildur's wife is mentioned, though not named, twice in the Silmarillion, both times after the escape from Numenor. His mother is not mentioned at all. And, interestingly, there is a sister in the Andunie family who plays a significant role: Lindórië, sister of the Lord of Andunie and mother of Inzilbeth. She taught her daughter the ways of the Faithful, and she passed them on to her own son, Tar-Palantir, King of Numenor. Numenorean women are a force to be reckoned with.)

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Again, what hope is there that Amazon won't go the same way with Tolkien?

Was there ever any doubt that it wouldn't?

I think anyone who goes into this new show thinking it isn't going to take a modern Hollywood approach to diversity and incorporate it into Middle-earth is kidding themselves. And I say that as a dreaded "progressive" who doesn't have a problem with that approach in principle. Execution is a different matter, obviously.

As with most modern sequels/adaptations/re-imaginings etc. I strongly suspect what will really be the problem with the Amazon show will be that it gets the tone wrong, and not because of its gender politics.

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I think anyone who goes into this new show thinking it isn't going to take a modern Hollywood approach to diversity and incorporate it into Middle-earth is kidding themselves. And I say that as a dreaded "progressive" who doesn't have a problem with that approach in principle. Execution is a different matter, obviously.

This, basically. There's absolutely nothing wrong with diversity, it's all in how it's done. To take two current or recent examples: Star Trek Discovery and The Expanse. Both present diversity as a theme, but could they be any more different in the execution?

Maybe the problem is with adding diversity where there was previously none? Why not just say that?

There are a lot of people in this thread who seem to have imagined up a worst case scenario of how this show could go, then decided that they're going to hate it with the burning fire of a billion suns based on not much more than their own imaginings. I just don't get that.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by mhagain

There are a lot of people in this thread who seem to have imagined up a worst case scenario of how this show could go, then decided that they're going to hate it with the burning fire of a billion suns based on not much more than their own imaginings. I just don't get that.

It's the trick of setting the bar so low that it's hard to fail so miserably. Expect the best, and you will suffer disappointment. Expect the worst, and you may be spared. It's not going to be "good" by definition, the way I and a number of others here would define a good Tolkien adaptation. But I myself am taking the more cheerful route of gleefully making fun of the expected ridiculousness rather than letting it gall my spleen. You see, it's hard to out-pessimism reality, but if you succeed in out-pessimisming movie expectations, you might actually enjoy it for whatever good elements - or at least entertainment value - it will have. And if it still sucks even after you've done all that - well, it good and truly sucks, if it failed even the lowest bar you could imagine.

I recommend it to all - care less and laugh at it more. Seriously, it's already given me quite a bit of entertainment factor. It's like The Room / The Disaster Artist - perhaps it was not intended to function as a comedy, but if nothing else, it can at least be that in the expectations stage.


But if you wanna talk about more positive expectations - what are yours? What would you like to see, within the scarce info we have, that would make a story you'd enjoy?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

It's the trick of setting the bar so low that it's hard to fail so miserably. Expect the best, and you will suffer disappointment. Expect the worst, and you may be spared.

But it's kind of grim for those of us who would actually like it to be good, that every time we come in here with a new tidbit of news the responses are all "this just proves that it's going to be terrible" when it doesn't do anything of the sort.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

But if you wanna talk about more positive expectations - what are yours? What would you like to see, within the scarce info we have, that would make a story you'd enjoy?

Thanks, I will!

• I want to see Numenor. It won't be my Numenor - that's currently veering towards the Egyptian-Mesoamerican style - but it will be Numenor. The visuals from the movies, plus the one image we have from this series, tell me that they're excellent at evoking Tolkien's landscapes.
• I want to see hints and glimpses of the First Age. Not lots - and despite the contention that the Estate has sold out entirely to Amazon, I don't believe that they would allow a great deal of First Age material - but glimpses like Tolkien scattered through LotR. Give me the Lay of Leithian as background in a party, and paintings of the Fall of Ancalagon.
• I want to see Elves (Sam says hi ^_^). More than that, I want to see Elvish civilisation. We've not seen that - Imladris, Lorien, and Mirkwood were fading enclaves. I want Lindon and Ost-in-Edhil and, ideally, glimpses of Eressea and Tirion. (Gondolin and Nargothrond is probably pushing it, but ye Valar! Give me a flash of them in the prologue!)
• As for the story... I want Tar-Miriel to get the respect she deserves. I know, I know - women, in Tolkien?! But it's inconceivable to me that the Last Queen of Numenor - the only person who attempted to intervene with the One to save the island, even if (as an earlier tale of Earendil ran) she came too late - wouldn't be involved in the Resistance.
• I want to see the fall of Pharazon - or further fall. I want to see him as an example of how there is always a deeper depth to sink to. He starts out pretty bad, as a racist rapist; he winds up as a death-cultist waging war against heaven. I want to see that decline take place not all at once, but in realistic slow time. I want to see Annatar corrupting Numenor (and Celebrimbor, if we get that story) by tiny, reasonable steps.
• I want them to draw on all the stories of Numenor. Not merging Silmarien, Aldarion and Isildur into a single nightmare timeframe, but using elements from the earlier stories. A series has room for more side characters than a movie, so draw on The Mariner's Wife to give us the Lord of Romenna's fights with his lady wife. Take Elendil and his son's discussions in The Lost Road and use them to give us a Faithful/King's Men debate that's more than just "you're evil" vs "you're too nice".
• And I want them to remember that, in any story that didn't include Sauron, Numenor would be the villain. The Numenoreans are racist, slave-taking invaders, and even the good ones are built on that foundation (just ask the Dunlendings!). I fully expect that some of our primary cast will be naive King's Men who discover what's really going on and join the Faithful over it; but I hope there will also be those who find out and... don't change, because actually, people can justify almost anything to themselves. "Take up the Edain's burden / The best ye breed forth send! / Go raise your sons as sailors / To bind the Lesser Men."

None of this is particularly implausible (the most unlikely is them using The Mariner's Wife). None of it makes the outcome a definite success. But it would provide the foundation for a good-quality adaptation of Tolkien's world, built on the wonder that is Middle-earth and giving it something to say about the sometimes vile way humans treat each other - and how we can do better.

What I don't want to see is a straightforward adaptation of the Tale of Superhero Isildur and Cartoonishly Evil Sauron-n-Pharazon, And How Good Inevitably Triumphed (Shame About That Ring). Even The Hobbit has more moral depth than that.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Hui

I want them to draw on all the stories of Numenor. Not merging Silmarien, Aldarion and Isildur into a single nightmare timeframe, but using elements from the earlier stories.*

I can totally get behind that. And this is something GOT managed to do quite well - they integrate snippets of history into the story. So if we can learn about Aegon the this and Maegor the that, I think we can learn about Aldarion and Erendis and Silmarien. And a few First Age tales - but I don't think I want more than a brief flash of the FA.

Originally Posted by Hui

I want to see the fall of Pharazon - or*further*fall. I want to see him as an example of how there is*always*a deeper depth to sink to. He starts out pretty bad, as a racist rapist; he winds up as a death-cultist waging war against heaven. I want to see that decline take place not all at once, but in realistic slow time. I want to see Annatar corrupting Numenor (and Celebrimbor, if we get that story) by tiny, reasonable steps.

And this too. It would be nice if this happens. But - and I stick by my previous post - I ain't gonna count on them getting it right. I prefer pleasant surprises to disappointments, especially in the movie industry.

[Boromir88]

I'm excited to get some new blood in a Tolkien adaptation. I wish Del Toro would have been able to stick around for The Hobbit. And I never had any major gripes with the casting in either trilogy, but I think it's good we're getting a different cast and crew for this series.

I believe I read Howard Shore is doing the score again. I was slightly disappointed in The Hobbit score, because I think he recycled a few themes, but the Misty Mountains theme (and the song in Bag End I enjoyed). Not to mention the LOTR score was top shelf. Rohan theme and Khazad-dum theme give me chills every time.

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

But if you wanna talk about more positive expectations - what are yours? What would you like to see, within the scarce info we have, that would make a story you'd enjoy?

I'll bite - here's a top three.


I want to see the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. There are so many cinematic scenes in that, from the arrival of Turgon, to the charge of Gwindor, to the last stand of Húrin, it almost demands to be visually depicted. It needn't be a full episode, give me it as prologue material or something, but I so badly want to see that.


I want to see more about the Nazgul. If they can construct a good backstory that works well, and show us something about those Kings and Sorcerers before they became Ringwraiths, the people they were, and the reasons why they succumbed to temptation. Get this right and it could be like the fall of Darth Vader times nine, without the angst and whining.


I want to see something I haven't seen before in a depiction of Middle-earth. We've had heroism, we've had struggle, we've had hope, we've had sadness, we've had the passing of an older age; we've already had these themes. I want to see something that evokes the huge titanic struggles, the Powers clashing, something that will make me **** myself.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by mhagain

I want to see more about the Nazgul. If they can construct a good backstory that works well, and show us something about those Kings and Sorcerers before they became Ringwraiths, the people they were, and the reasons why they succumbed to temptation. Get this right and it could be like the fall of Darth Vader times nine, without the angst and whining.

Okay, I would love this. Previous attempts to do anything with the Nazgul have been... uh... pretty dang bad, and I will be clawing at the walls if any of them turn out to be a) dead or b) Isildur. But if they can do it well, it would be incredible.

hS

[Huinesoron]

Hey hey, actual news! The first trailer is coming next Sunday! And TORn are doing a watch party.

Honestly I would not have expected to find myself visiting TORn for movie-related news again. What a world.

hS