"Rings of Power" trailer analysis

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Tar Elenion

Yes. I would rather they depicted the sun and moon in existence at the same time as the Two Trees as per LotR and The Hobbit.

This would mean pulling material not just from the Silmarillion, but from HoME texts - the Appendices are crystal clear that the Two Trees "gave light to the land of the Valar", so they would have to use the Dome(s) of Varda to make sense of it, and it/they isn't/aren't in Silm or UT.

Without invoking the idea that the Valar just shoved a giant lid on Valinor because, by golly, they'd had this idea for shiny trees and didn't want to let a ball of flaming gas ruin it, it's perfectly possible to reconcile the LotR and Hobbit texts you reference with the "young Sun" worldview:

- The Hobbit is written in Bilbo's editorial voice, and was written before he read the Elvish tales; Hobbit folk-tales make no mention of the creation of the Sun and Moon. (It is clear that Tolkien was thinking of the Dome of Varda/Melkor's smokes cover the Sun story here, but that doesn't mean it's the only possible interpretation.)

- Durin: there was no stain on the Moon because there was no Moon. The "light of sun and star and moon" is either a later metaphor (like the Winged Sun on Finwe's heraldic device), or an indication that Durin ruled until after the Sunrise.

- Galadriel says "beyond" and means in time.

- Gandalf is explicitly covering a broad timeline in his riddle - he mentions rings, which is the mid-Second Age! Or: he's referring to mountains that are now under the Moon. Or: he's saying that Treebeard and the Ents came to Fangorn after the Moonrise, leaving the lands where iron and hewing and woe were found. (Heck, Woe Was Wrought by Melkor before the land was even solid!) Or even: 'when young was mountain under moon' is a Rohirric idiom not otherwise attested.

And there are references which imply (but again do not state) the Silmarillion cosmology:

- The "stain on the moon" from the Durin rhyme is only ever explained in terms of Tilion and his ship, not a giant orbiting rock.

- There are explicit references to a Man in the Moon throughout Hobbit lore (and indeed a woman in the Sun).

- The "Sunless Years" reference from Gildor's song.

- Tom Bombadil talks of "the young Sun" shining down on battles on the Barrow-Downs.

- Bilbo's song tells of Earendil flying behind the sun; for a Silmaril to be visible at that distance the Sun must be pretty close (or the Silmarils once lit the entirety of Beleriand!).

- Haldir mentions that the light of the Sun is not as it was aforetimes, which actually sounds most like one of the very old legends about the death of Arien. It definitely doesn't make sense with an Old Sun model, unless Haldir is complaining that the sun isn't washed-out and obscured enough. (Perhaps he is English and longing for grey summers?)

And that's only from Fellowship! I'm sure you could find more in the other volumes. This isn't an obvious "the Sun always existed" situation by any means.

hS

[mhagain]

"The sun always existed" was the "destructive idea" that CJRT referenced in a number of places in HoME. It's certainly not as simplistic as saying "the sun always existed, get over it, move on" - and it's incredibly disingenuous to imply so.


If nothing else, consider everything that would need to be rewritten to support it:

• The Myth of the Lamps
• The Sleep of Yavanna
• The Myth of the Trees
• The first reckoning of Time
• The Darkening of Valinor
• The Myth of the Sun and the Moon
• Remind me what's so special about these Silmaril things again, anyway?
• Etc.
• Oh, and the Change of the World at the end of the Second Age; including everything about the Straight Path to Valinor.

And these were never rewritten.


Whichever way you slice it, you're going to need to handwave away something.


So which is easier to handwave away? Some oblique references, some of which came in via subsequent edits or editions, and most of which can be easily explained away? Or the entire first half of the Silmarillion? And so much other important stuff?


Nope, not buying it. Tolkien may have had intentions towards rewriting everything, but the key thing is: he never did. Ultimately all that we're left with is the latest completed cosmology, and, despite some offhand references and subsequent edits, that is the Cosmology.

[Tar Elenion]

Originally Posted by mhagain

"The sun always existed" was the "destructive idea" that CJRT referenced in a number of places in HoME. It's certainly not as simplistic as saying "the sun always existed, get over it, move on" - and it's incredibly disingenuous to imply so.

I did not say that. And it is disingenuous to imply that I did. Is that what you are attempting?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by mhagain

( . . . ) And these were never rewritten.

I argue that Tolkien eventually realized that they didn't have to be, although interestingly, if I recall correctly, he did add a reference to the Dome of Varda to LQ2 -- but again, there's no explicit-ness there (on purpose I would say).

The reference is there to be picked up on, but it doesn't have to hit the reader over the head. I read the "Death of Ambarussa" text (as no one calls it), as a Western Elvish tradition of a pre-existing sun . . .

. . . and I see no reason why it can't stand in the fuller Legendarium alongside the Quenta Silmarillion tradition with its time without a sun, and see no reason why it can't stand alongside the reference to the "Sunless Year" in The Lord of the Rings, or alongside Appendix F (Trolls): "Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun . . ."

Okay, so what exactly is the Twilight here, when not informed by the tradition of The Silmarillion?

Also in my opinion, the "natural default interpretation" of the world and its sun -- when considering everything Tolkien himself published -- is that the world was always round, and the Sun pre-existing -- and all I mean by that is that it's just a natural thing for modern readers to think* without anything explicit to necessarily think otherwise.

Or if I'm wrong, I'll speak for myself at least: I don't think I ever imagined Tolkien's world as "once flat" or "once sunless" until the constructed Silmarillion was published.

Or maybe I'm just too thick headed


_______

*I note A Guide To Middle-Earth by Robert Foster, the edition published before the constructed Silmarillion was published:


Twilight: "Figurative name for the Undying Lands, derived from their darkened state after the Rebellions of Morgoth and the Noldor.

Twilight: "A period early in the First Age of Middle-earth, perhaps the domination of Morgoth."


But in Foster's revised, post-Silmarillion Guide, the two entries for Twilight are quite different of course!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Do you really think this show is going t deal in complex metaphysics and sophisticated cosmology?

These are people who still think bearded Dwarf women were a Peter Jackson joke (as stated just yesterday at Comicon)

So it will be really interesting - in the way reconstructing an air disaster is “interesting “ - to see hoe these hacks try to build a “second age” out of the Appendices alone without violating copyright. My guess? They will do it with nonstop Hollywood and pulp-fantasy cliches.

PS They claim to be advised in this project by “Tolkien scholars.” To which my reaction is similar to that of Indiana Jones when told the Ark would be examined by “top men”….

Who?

Which Tolkien scholars? I know who pretty much all if the reputable ones are, and to my knowledge none of them has touched this thing - except Shippey, who quit or was fired within just a few weeks.

[Blind Guardian]

I agree with William. This is going to be a "poop emoji"-show. I expect nothing less than "Fate: The Winx Saga" level of bad. Except "Fate" is based off of an increasingly terrible show and can only go up from here.

RoP is based off of pure magic, that I never thought would be tarnished. At least it will give me a visual of what people look like, and, hopefully (!!) help me pronounce the names. And it did get me to reread the Sil after like 2 years.

You guys are debating twilight and stuff, and while I appreciate it and enjoy the discussion, I don't think it's realistic. These story writers are clearly not following the established lore. I mean, didn't Elrond already know about Sauron being evil and doesn't need Galadriel to tell him about it?

I would like to start a betting pool of how much money Amazon is going to lose because of this show. Anyone want in?

Edit: I made a meme, but I don't know how to upload it. https://imgur.com/a/cPuPkIQ

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Blind Guardian

You guys are debating twilight and stuff, and while I appreciate it and enjoy the discussion, I don't think it's realistic.

Well, for my part, I'm mostly commenting on the Tolkienian stuff . . . aside from what is realistic or not with respect to a show (any show). I mean I'm not unaware of the context of the thread, but I don't get to post on this subject that often.

[Tar Elenion]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

So it will be really interesting - in the way reconstructing an air disaster is “interesting “ - to see hoe these hacks try to build a “second age” out of the Appendices alone without violating copyright. My guess? They will do it with nonstop Hollywood and pulp-fantasy cliches.

My guess is they don't really need to worry too much about copyright violations, as there is some sort of 'case by case' agreement with the Estate. And Simon 'Jackson was too faithful to the books' Tolkien is some sort of 'advisor', (isn't he basically in charge of the Estate since CT's death?).

PS They claim to be advised in this project by “Tolkien scholars.” To which my reaction is similar to that of Indiana Jones when told the Ark would be examined by “top men”….

Who?

Which Tolkien scholars? I know who pretty much all if the reputable ones are, and to my knowledge none of them has touched this thing - except Shippey, who quit or was fired within just a few weeks.

Top secret Tolkien scholars. Probably intimately familiar with all the materials in:
Appendix BS

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

PS They claim to be advised in this project by “Tolkien scholars.” To which my reaction is similar to that of Indiana Jones when told the Ark would be examined by “top men”….

Who?

Which Tolkien scholars? I know who pretty much all if the reputable ones are, and to my knowledge none of them has touched this thing - except Shippey, who quit or was fired within just a few weeks.

I was going to say, Shippey leaving (or being fired, depending on whether you believe he kept complaining the show runners were "polluting the lore") is certainly an ominous tell as to the nature of this cluster****. Of course, one only has to watch a few minutes of the trailers to see the inanity already bubbling over.

[Blind Guardian]

I made my meme better: https://imgur.com/a/pFZ5M49

I'm not good at making memes, but I think you guys get the point. Do you hear that noise? It's Melkor laughing.

[Huinesoron]

About five days ago a new trailer dropped. It feels like it goes a lot deeper into the plot than the previous ones, so let's take a look!

I'm not going to do a scene/shot count this time, because now they're this long I don't see much value in it. I'd rather do an overall impression and specific responses.

GALADRIEL: We thought the war, at last, was ended.

Galadriel, in a dress (not armour), places a Noldorin helmet on a ginormous pile of such helmets. The battlefield is an utter wreck - dead trees and swamplike mists. Very clearly part of the end of the First Age.

ELROND: Today, our days of peace begin.

A flash of Elrond looking somewhat smug, implied to be watching as Gil-Galad crowns Galadriel with a wreath of leaves. She, and a handful of other elves around her, looks to be in armour with a white cloak. The setting is that stone slab under a very pretty tree that seems to be the main set for Lindon.

GALADRIEL: We thought our joys would be unending.

A quick flash of a banquet in a forest. It's hard to see, but the guests are elves - Elrond, I think Celebrimbor, some dude with long black hair - except for one: Durin IV, raising a glass to the table. There are some very lovely lanterns hanging over the table.

GALADRIEL: We thought our light would never dim.

Pastoral flashes: children in white run along a river, something happens with boats on a beach, and Galadriel on the Swanship apparently sailing west.

SADOC BURROWS: The skies are strange.

Shot of him saying that. Shot of Arondir and Bronwyn watching the meteor; we've seen these before.

Here's something new: a tall tower next to a vast domed building. Apparently this is Numenor, because now we see inside: it's Miriel, and Galadriel, and a Palantir.

Yes, the Palantiri were supposedly given to the Faithful. Given that they're literally named after her dad, I'm going to give Miriel a pass on having one.

MIRIEL: It is here, Galadriel - the moment we feared.

Galadriel puts her hand on the Palantir, and in a series of quick flashes we see: a huge dark battlefield, with Orcs and that one blond elf from the first trailer that I still hope isn't Finrod; the red underwater vision from the last trailer; and Galadriel crying over a body that might be Blond Elf lying in state. It's certainly cut like we're seeing the end of the First Age - "things that were", I suppose.

Now we're back outside, and discover that the shot of Miriel under falling white stuff actually shows either petals or leaves from the White Tree, blowing in the wind.

MIRIEL: Evil does not sleep.

New character alert! A pale, creepy chappie who has been compared to rapper Eminem, hanging out on a rock with two other characters, all dressed in flowing white. I feel like he has a bit of a "priest of Evil" vibe about him; also some very big eyebrows.

MIRIEL: It waits.

Now we see Elrond being led into Moria by a nondescript dwarf, leading to Durin III talking to Durin IV:

DURIN III: Beyond the darkness - tempting shadow - to bury us all beneath the mountain.

I'm... not sure that makes sense. Is Daddy Durin going a bit gaga in his old age? Durin IV is not impressed.

Back to Galadriel, coated in ash, standing up against a red sky. There are burning houses around her; they look mortal, thatched.

MIRIEL: He has not one name, but many.

A dark fortress - or maybe a Dark Tower - lit by lightning gives way to a eye-like rune, growing like frost on rock. We've seen this rune before: it's on the Broken Sword poster, which is now known to be:

THEO: [Gasps]

A creepy old man grabs Theo's arm and looms at him.

CREEPY OLD MAN: Have you heard of him, lad? Have you heard of Sauron?

Cut to Bronwyn hiding in a closet, as someone wearing long, spiky fingered gloves creepily enters the house.

Now we see Theo with the sword, which grows back to full length in a shower of fire and shadow. I'm sure that'll end well!

GALADRIEL: If the evil rising is left unchecked, it will take us all.

Some characters in a frozen, underground location; not sure who. A flash of an anvil-shaped rock with the rune on it, and then, surprise! A giant rock hits several of those present.

Cut to burning ships, and then Bronwyn hugs Theo.

BRONWYN: Find the light, and the shadow will not find you.

Creepy fingers guy walks through a pack of... uh... people in animal-skull hats, maybe? Could be orcs. And then it's another series of rapid images as Bronwyn declares:

BRONWYN: Together we can survive this!

Viggo... um, Elendil (or is that Halbrand?) strides through a Numenorean doorway. Bronwyn says that line to a crowd, one of whom holds up a sword. The possible Oath of Feanor again. Galadriel climbs onto a Numenorean warship.

MIRIEL?: Fight with me.

Galadriel clasps hands with someone; maybe Miriel. Arondir drops onto a bridge for some Legolas-style action. Miriel steps forward holding what certainly seems to be a baby. Disa and a choir of dwarves sing.

Miriel?: Each of us must decide who we shall be.

Durin IV with his special crystal. Bronwyn and Arondir look angsty. Galadriel, Miriel, and the Numenorean cavalry charge. The skull-heads run through a forest. Galadriel swims away from a wrecked ship / the raft as a giant sea-monster leaps over it (looks like a mosasaur to me).

DURIN IV: There can be no trust between hammer and rock.

The Numenorean army marches out. Quite why they need to be running about in full armour on their island is beyond me; maybe it's the easiest way to make sure it all gets to the ships. Durin IV does a kind of fist-salute, and then we're back with the Stranger in the meteor crater, meeting Nori.

DURIN IV: Eventually, one or the other... must surely break.

Arondir fights the skull-heads, who are definitely orcs. There's a quick flash of what looks like the Stranger collapsing in the woods in here, too. Then we cut to the mortal village, probably Tirharad, for our biggest cast roundup yet: Bronwyn, Arondir, Miriel, and Galadriel('s shoulder) are all visible as a shockwave shakes the village. A quick flash of Galadriel in armour with sparks around her.

Fade through black to Priest Guy blowing shadow and sparks from his hand, looking about as evil as anyone can look.

CREEPY VOICE: You have been told many lies of Middle-earth.

An autumn leaf blows through a cave system and comes to rest on the ground - then burns up. I think this is one of the longest continuous shots in the trailer.

Arondor gasps for breath in front of a wall of roots, before something grabs him and pulls him into it. I've seen speculation that the grabbing hands could be branch-like, ie Ents, but the shot is so blurred it's hard to tell.

TITLE: The Lord of the Rings - The Rings of Power

Black, black... rumble... Balrog.

BALROG: [Roars like a T. rex in Jurassic Park]

~

I know, of course, the number one question in all your minds, and the answer is: I can't tell if it has physical wings, but the smoke billowing about it takes on a winglike shape. Hope that helps.

hS

[Tar Elenion]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

This would mean pulling material not just from the Silmarillion, but from HoME texts - the Appendices are crystal clear that the Two Trees "gave light to the land of the Valar", so they would have to use the Dome(s) of Varda to make sense of it, and it/they isn't/aren't in Silm or UT.

No more than pulling materials to invoke the sun and moon not in existence.

Without invoking the idea that the Valar just shoved a giant lid on Valinor because, by golly, they'd had this idea for shiny trees and didn't want to let a ball of flaming gas ruin it, it's perfectly possible to reconcile the LotR and Hobbit texts you reference with the "young Sun" worldview:

- The Hobbit is written in Bilbo's editorial voice, and was written before he read the Elvish tales; Hobbit folk-tales make no mention of the creation of the Sun and Moon. (It is clear that Tolkien was thinking of the Dome of Varda/Melkor's smokes cover the Sun story here, but that doesn't mean it's the only possible interpretation.)

It is clear that Tolkien deliberately revised the passage to have an extant sun and moon.

- Durin: there was no stain on the Moon because there was no Moon. The "light of sun and star and moon" is either a later metaphor (like the Winged Sun on Finwe's heraldic device), or an indication that Durin ruled until after the Sunrise.

Then it would have been 'before' the moon.

- Galadriel says "beyond" and means in time.

In time would be 'before'.

- Gandalf is explicitly covering a broad timeline in his riddle - he mentions rings, which is the mid-Second Age! Or: he's referring to mountains that are now under the Moon. Or: he's saying that Treebeard and the Ents came to Fangorn after the Moonrise, leaving the lands where iron and hewing and woe were found. (Heck, Woe Was Wrought by Melkor before the land was even solid!) Or even: 'when young was mountain under moon' is a Rohirric idiom not otherwise attested.

The semicolon indicates a distinct separation between the two parts of the riddle.

And there are references which imply (but again do not state) the Silmarillion cosmology:

- The "stain on the moon" from the Durin rhyme is only ever explained in terms of Tilion and his ship, not a giant orbiting rock.

- There are explicit references to a Man in the Moon throughout Hobbit lore (and indeed a woman in the Sun).

- The "Sunless Years" reference from Gildor's song.

It is "Sunless Year". Which was when?

- Tom Bombadil talks of "the young Sun" shining down on battles on the Barrow-Downs.

Perhaps the only possible one. The sun young compared to what?

- Bilbo's song tells of Earendil flying behind the sun; for a Silmaril to be visible at that distance the Sun must be pretty close (or the Silmarils once lit the entirety of Beleriand!).

- Haldir mentions that the light of the Sun is not as it was aforetimes, which actually sounds most like one of the very old legends about the death of Arien. It definitely doesn't make sense with an Old Sun model, unless Haldir is complaining that the sun isn't washed-out and obscured enough. (Perhaps he is English and longing for grey summers?)

And that's only from Fellowship! I'm sure you could find more in the other volumes. This isn't an obvious "the Sun always existed" situation by any means.

hS

None of seem these have any relevance to the existence of the sun and moon.

And it all fails on Tolkien's deliberate revision.