Let's learn Quenya on the Downs

[Huinesoron]

Out of curiousity, what was the form lerte? Aorist/infinitive?

Since we're doing Mordor:

I tengwar Eldarin, yára lé, apa i lambë i Mordoro ita sinomë váquetuvan quetë.

hS

[Alassë Estel]

Lertë was in the aorist form.

I found the translation rather difficult, hopefully it is at least close.

"The letters of the Eldar, belonging to a former manner, against the tongue of Mordor that which in this place will forbid me to speak".

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Alassë Estel

Lertë was in the aorist form.

I think the aorist of an a-stem still ends in -a.

Originally Posted by Alassë Estel

I found the translation rather difficult, hopefully it is at least close.

"The letters of the Eldar, belonging to a former manner, against the tongue of Mordor that which in this place will forbid me to speak".

It's close, in that you've got all the nouns right; now it's just a matter of making sense out of it.

One thing Tolkien frequently did (especially in Sindarin, but also Quenya) was to leave out forms of "to be" unless they were emphasised. So a sentence like "the apples are red" would be written as "the apples red" - the word order would create an implicit verb in the middle (standard order would be "the red apples"). I think I do this twice, though one is debatable.

There are three possible meanings of "apa"; you need a different one. There are also two meanings of "i", though to be honest they're pretty close.

"Váquet-" is an interesting compound used by Tolkien; "va" is a form of "ava", a negative prefix like la-. "Váquet-" is literally "to not say", but I think the meaning is more "I say I will not". I'm not positive I've used it right, but I couldnt' figure out how to directly negate my verb. (Also, there's a pronoun in "váquetuvan".)

... and the whole thing is a quote.

hS

[Alassë Estel]

A- stem Aorists do keep their a endings. I will pay more attention.

So "I tengwar Eldarin": "The laguage/letters are Elvish"

"Yára lé": an ancient manner/method/way

"Apa": but

"i lambë i Mordoro": The tongue is of Mordor

"Ita": that which, which

"Sinomë": here, this place

"váquetuvan": I will not speak

And if I put all that together: The language is Elvish, an ancient method, but the tongue is that of Mordor which I will not speak in this place.


And if you like memes, this one is relevant:

[Huinesoron]

That's the one! Turned out to be a much harder sentence to write than I expected. Back to you.

hS

[Alassë Estel]

Alright. Here is the next one.

Cardi úva ea mis astalda pan tai nar úlaitanë.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Alassë Estel

Cardi úva ea mis astalda pan tai nar úlaitanë.

"Deeds will not be less valiant because they go unpraised".

And when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more.

Carda should form the plural cardar (cardi would be a Telerin plural).

"will not be" is a complex one; it looks like the prefix lá- is actually a weird verb "not to be", attested in the form lanye, "I am not". The future form is lauva, "will not be".

I actually have no idea how I'd write "less"; I can't seem to find a useful adjective. What is mis? If forced, I'd do something like "not completely", alaqua.

Astalda is good for "valiant".

Pan may be the best word for "because". It looks like Tolkien actually discarded it, but the best alternative is something like cenai, "if it be that".

"they are unpraised" is another complex one. úlaita is good, but I think you want it as a passive participle (ie, an adjective like "named", "sung", "built". A built house, an unpraised deed). That means it can just sit after the pronoun and get the "are" in by implication. So it would be úlaitaina, and tai appears to be a decent pronoun.

So I would have said: Cardar lauva alaqua astalda pan tai úlaitaina.

hS

[Galadriel55]

I have been following along about as nimbly as Gimli on a horse. But I had a question, on reading on of the translations, because I thought I knew the word but I didn't:

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I tengwar Eldarin, yára lé, apa i lambë i Mordoro ita sinomë váquetuvan quetë.

I saw "ita" and brain matched it to the Quenya form of Idril, IIRC meaning something like "sparkling" or "shining". Here it means "which". Is there a similar sounding root that is used for Idril, or did I make that up?

[Alassë Estel]

Yes there is: íta (notice the accent, versus "ita" with no accent). Here's a link https://www.elfdict.com/wt/501686 , if you like.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Alassë Estel

Thank you for explaining that, I do appreciate it. I am sorry for those mistakes, I hope it isn't too bothersome for you translating like that.

Not a problem at all; it's fun! The reason I've written "I would have said" is that my Quenya isn't perfect either. For instance:

Originally Posted by Alassë Estel

Also, here is a link to "mis", https://www.elfdict.com/wt/110751 .

That is an extremely useful word. It's hard to tell, but I think Eldamo doesn't include PE14 material, so right there is a gap in my "knowledge" (which is basically just reading, I have very little memorised).

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I saw "ita" and brain matched it to the Quenya form of Idril, IIRC meaning something like "sparkling" or "shining". Here it means "which". Is there a similar sounding root that is used for Idril, or did I make that up?

You're quite right: there are two words "ita". One is a verb, to sparkle; the other is a conjuction formed from i + ta. You could parse it as "that there"; I preferred it over just "i" because I didn't want it confused with the definite article.

Another one for you to play with, featuring a dubious proper name and a double negative:

Ar silumë, equë Nanisáro, minya axanya len: quetë ar ala laláma!

hS

[Alassë Estel]

Alright, first is "Ar silumë,": And now,

Then "Equë Nanisáro,": Says Denethor,

Followed the by perplexing "Minya axanya len": His first rule to me:

After which comes "quetë ar ala laláma!": speak and grow unsound!

The last one was most confusing, as it doesn't make much sense after translating, but that is the best translation I could come to.

Anyway that would be: "And now, says Denethor, his first rule to me: speak and grow unsound!"

I expect that is not quite right, but I am at a loss for the correct answer.

[Huinesoron]

You're pretty close, actually. Let's have a look:

"equë" is a lovely weird verb. I often read it as "quoth" or "spake", but "said/says" is just as correct. What's interesting is that it has no tenses - so the English can be past or present.

Check your pronouns in the 'rule' clause. Also take a look at what "axan" can mean - it's a bit stronger than just a rule.

"ala" could mean 'grow', but in this case is the imperative of a different verb I already used in my version of your last answer. (I did say there was a double negative!)

'Unsound' is a literally correct translation of "laláma", but 'sound' here = noise, not solidity. There's a better word for "un-noisy".

hS

[Alassë Estel]

That was most helpful, thank you.

My second answer is: "And now, spake Denethor, her first command to me: speak and do not be silent!"

Is that correct?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Alassë Estel

My second answer is: "And now, spake Denethor, her first command to me: speak and do not be silent!"

I'll say close enough.

‘And now,’ said Denethor, ‘my first command to you: speak and be not silent! Tell me your full tale, and see that you recall all that you can of Boromir, my son. Sit now and begin!’

You're still getting caught out by those pronouns. There's (uh... obviously) two of them in that clause:

minya axanya len

-nya is the possessive version of -n or -nye. Where -nye would need to be attached to a verb (Canyanye, "I command"), -nya attaches to a noun. Axan-nya is "my command". It's a bit complicated by the double N collapsing into one; my model for this was onya, onna-nya. It may be that *axannya would have been better.

Le- is... well, it's wrong is what it is. ^_^ I took it directly from an example of the dative, but didn't bothered to check if it was singular or plural "you". The correct word would by lyen, the polite version of "you", with a dative suffix - ie, "to you" or "for you". (We know Denethor would have used the polite form, because Tolkien wrote a whole thing about how Pippin didn't, and how that affected the Gondorian perception of him.)

Back to you!

hS