** Revising The Voyage of Earendil

[Aiwendil]

Oh, I was confused because you wrote:

It's not Amrod that dies in the Third Kinslaying - it's Amros (previously called Amras)!

But we agree, it should be Amrod. I'm not sure how that got missed before.

[Arvegil145]

Ummmhh...I don't think we're getting through to each other.

In my last comment (and I edited it recently) I should have said that Amrod/Amarthan dies at Losgar: and that it was a mistake to have him be at the Mouths of Sirion during the Third Kinslaying - that should be Amros there!

Amrod is Sindarin for 'Ambarto'.
Amarthan is Sindarin for 'Umbarto' ("the Fated").


Tl;dr It's clearly Amrod/Amarthan who dies at Losgar in YT 1497, and Amros (the older Ambarussa) dies at the Mouths of Sirion in FA 538.

To quote the Shibboleth (p. 355):

The story first emerged, I think, with the words 'The most authentic seems to be thus: The two twins were both red-haired. Nerdanel gave them both the name Ambarussa ...' It was then, no doubt, that my father changed the name Ambarto to Umbarto in the list and reversed the names of the twin brothers (see note 62), so that Ambarussa becomes the elder of the two and Ambarto/Umbarto the youngest of Fëanor's children, as he is in the legend told here.

[Aiwendil]

Sorry, I must be tired today - for some reason even though you wrote "the Third Kinslaying" I thought you were saying Amrod did not die at Losgar. We're in agreement.

[Findegil]

Hello again! Nice to read a new wave of activity!

I checked in my working copy and it has in line from 'Earendil' already teh correct reading of 'Amros'. So probabaly this has been observed before and corrected but without updating the text in privat forum. As I do not update that text un regular basis, this is quite likely.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Is there any particular reason that this line from the 1930 Quenta was excluded:

But Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and joined with the Noldoli whom he loved, and in after time dwelt still, or so it hath been said, ever upon his ship voyaging the seas of the Elven-lands, or resting a while in the harbours of the Gnomes of Tol Eressëa; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.

I know that later texts are far less explicit about Tuor's whereabouts, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the idea was scrapped - it might just mean that Tolkien decided to keep it more of a mystery.

[Findegil]

As I don't remember any duscission about it, I think we simply overlooked it. We used insteed the rendering from QS77 (see VE-07.3). But I think we should change it to:

... Then they set sail <TY (and some say Voronwë with them)> into the sunset and the West. <TE-E {Eärendel}[Eärendil] {hears}heard a great song swelling from the sea as{ Tur's skiff dips over the world's rim.}<TE-NC {Idril and Earendel see} Tuor’s boat {dropping}dropped into the twilight{ and a sound of song}.>{His}/Great was his/ passion of tears upon the shore.> {, and}And Tuor came no more into any tale or song. VE-07.25 <Q30, note 2 <But Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and joined with the {Noldoli}[Noldor] whom he loved, and in after time dwelt still, or so it hath been said, {[struck out: in Tol Eressea] }ever upon his ship voyaging the seas of {Fairyland [> }the Elven-lands{]}, or resting a while in the harbours of the {Gnomes}[Exiles] of Tol Eressea; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.>VE-07.3a <QS77 {But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.}
Bright Eärendil was then lord of the people that dwelt nigh to Sirion's mouths; ...

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

I know that later texts are far less explicit about Tuor's whereabouts, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the idea was scrapped - it might just mean that Tolkien decided to keep it more of a mystery.

It seems to me that for precisely this reason, we should omit the statement from our version. In any case, enough had changed an been elaborated in Tolkien's thinking about the natures of Elves and Men between Q30 and the later period that I think it should not be stated as a definitive fact that Tuor was counted afterward as one of the Noldor.

If, however, we do keep that statement, I think we need to remove the previous sentence, and perhaps soften the statement with a "some say":

... Then they set sail <TY (and some say Voronwë with them)> into the sunset and the West. <TE-E {Eärendel}[Eärendil] {hears}heard a great song swelling from the sea as{ Tur's skiff dips over the world's rim.}<TE-NC {Idril and Earendel see} Tuor’s boat {dropping}dropped into the twilight{ and a sound of song}.>{His}/Great was his/ passion of tears upon the shore.> {, and came no more into any tale or song.} VE-07.25 <Q30, note 2 <But some say that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and joined with the {Noldoli}[Noldor] whom he loved, and in after time dwelt still, or so it hath been said, {[struck out: in Tol Eressea] }ever upon his ship voyaging the seas of {Fairyland [> }the Elven-lands{]}, or resting a while in the harbours of the {Gnomes}[Exiles] of Tol Eressea; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.>VE-07.3a <QS77 {But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.}
Bright Eärendil was then lord of the people that dwelt nigh to Sirion's mouths; ...