Ruin of Doriath - Final Part

[Arvegil145]

While I agree that if we keep both the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost in, Bodruith should also stay in.

However, this is where we run into the old dilemma of what to do with the very early names - maybe we should just keep the Lord of Belegost unnamed.

[Aiwendil]

Tolkien might not have thought about the implication it had for the story of Ost-in-Edhil if he involved the Belegost Dwarves, but he clearly had no reasons springing from the story of the Nauglamír to reject them. And, for me at least, their inclusion also means that this did not creat a glaring problem in any other story, otherwise Tolkien would probabaly have realised it.

It's that last part that I don't fully agree with. Tolkien may very well have written CtH with the intention that the Dwarves of Belegost took part in the Ruin of Doriath without it occurring to him that this created a problem for the story of Ost-in-Edhil.

However, Arvegil has at least convinced me of the first bit - that CtH in itself does imply that the attack on Menegroth was made by the Dwarves of both kingdoms.

I think a case could still be made for retaining the version in "Concerning Celeborn and Galadriel". But as it seems that others are inclined to reintroduce Belegost into the attack, I won't stand in the way of that. The matter of how to do this in the text is significantly trickier, and I will need to mull over Findegil's ideas above.

[gondowe]

I agree to Belegost part in the atack on Menegroth. I think is the story Tolkien had in mind in the 60s despite he 'could' have thougt another solution in 1955.
For my part I would change Indrafangs, etc for the general Naugrim. And the names of the Lords deriving from other traditions. But is a solution that I take in the context of my Thain's Book project.

Greetings.

[Findegil]

There was a discussion about 'Bodruith' as a name back in the past. The result was that the deficiant Sindarin would be okay, since the name is an outer Dwarve name and could be formed imperfectly by the Dwarves from any dialect the Belegost Dwarves had contact with. That would allow for any kind of imperfections.
The name was than skipped because it means 'revenge' and as the Belegost dwarves were taken out of the fight in Menegroth the reference for the name was lost.

For me that means when we take the Belegost Dwarves back into the fight, the name is back 'Bodruith' is back as well.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

There was a discussion about 'Bodruith' as a name back in the past. The result was that the deficiant Sindarin would be okay, since the name is an outer Dwarve name and could be formed imperfectly by the Dwarves from any dialect the Belegost Dwarves had contact with. That would allow for any kind of imperfections.
The name was than skipped because it means 'revenge' and as the Belegost dwarves were taken out of the fight in Menegroth the reference for the name was lost.

For me that means when we take the Belegost Dwarves back into the fight, the name is back 'Bodruith' is back as well.

Respectfully
Findegil

I believe that the etymology of the term bodruith ("revenge") was struck through by Tolkien, as per Parma Eldalamberon 11, p. 23.

However, the term (also meaning "revenge") later appears in the 'Noldorin Word-lists' in PE 13, p. 139.

[Findegil]

Anyhow we must not give the meanig if we have some doubts about it. We could simply use the name.

Respectfull
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Anyhow we must not give the meanig if we have some doubts about it. We could simply use the name.

Respectfull
Findegil

I agree. Even though I still have my problems with the early names: but since I'm (sort of) active on the 'Vinye Lambengolmor' Discord (which includes many prominent experts on the Elvish tongues, such as Paul Strack of the Eldamo), I'll try to ask for their advice on 'updating' these early Elvish names to a more fitting later conception of the Elven languages.

[Arvegil145]

I just remembered a late text (c. 1969) from the NoME that IMO implies that it was both the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost that took part in the attack on Doriath:

NB: the 'invention' ascribed to Dwarves by Elrond was of the invisible runes in moonletters only. All the same do not exaggerate Dwarvish linguistic ability. Though devised by the Sindar (owing to their enmity with the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost) it is probable (and was held true by the Noldor) that the idea of runes cut in stone etc. was derived ultimately from the Dwarves who had friendship with the sons of Fëanor.

- The Nature of Middle-earth, 'Part Three', 'Chapter XIX: Note on Dwarvish Voices', p. 371

The 'devised by Sindar' here refers to Cirth.

[Findegil]

But that quote must be meant for the time before the Fall of Doriath. Because when that 'enmity' caused by the Fall of Doriath came into being, Caranthir's rule ofer Talath Rhúnen had long fallen. Thus it must refer to some other earlier 'enmity' shared by both Nogrod and Belegost.

But anyhow, we already agreed that Belegost took part in the attack on Doriath.

Respectfully
Findegil