Relationship between Thingol and Cirdan

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I'd say second cousin, and born after the Finding of the Eldar.

We know from PoME that Cirdan was originally named Nowe. In NoME, we learn in the latest Time & Aging texts XIII.1 & XVII.3 that Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe were born between the Finding and the March.

Their generation (generations - technically Ingwe is a generation above, though roughly the same age) are the only ones confirmed to have -we names, excluding Finwe's reuse of his own name. Tolkien provides a family tree for Ingwe: Ilion - Ingwe - Ingwil.

It is *wild* speculation to say that after the Finding, -we names came into fashion around Cuivienen, but I'm doing it anyway.

How close a cousin? Your WJ quite slightly implies Cirdan is "remoter kin" of Elwe, but that's by comparison with his brothers and their descendents. We know the grandchildren of Finwe considered each other close kin (first cousins); we know Elrond and Celebrian weren't seen as kin, despite sharing great-great grandparents through Elwe and Elmo (third cousins); so would sharing great- grandparents make you distant kin?

It's the most tenuous chain of logic, but I like it. Cirdan Nowe is Elu Thingol's second cousin.

hS

1) Good point about the "-wë" names; however, as you said, Ingwe was one step removed from the generation of Finwe, Elwe (Thingol) and Olwe, so following that logic it's not inconceivable that Nowe (Cirdan) belonged to the same generation as Ingwe (i.e. the generation to which Thingol's and Olwe's parents belonged to).

Also, as an aside, where do you think Lenwe, the first chieftain of the Nandor, fits in this framework of "-wë" names? Do you think he also might've been a descendant of Enel and Enelye, like Thingol and Olwe?


P.S. I just remembered that Aranwe and Voronwe exist - but they were born long after the time of the Three Ambassadors' journey to Aman (well, at least Voronwe was: we don't have a clue when Aranwe was born).


2) As to your point about Cirdan possibly belonging to Thingol's "remoter kin", I remembered that I completely overlooked a crucial quote from the PoME:

Thus he [Cirdan] forfeited the fulfilment of his greatest desire: to see the Blessed Realm and find again there Olwë and his own nearest kin.

- The Peoples of Middle-earth, 'Last Writings', 'Círdan', p. 386

This quote (to me, at least) implies that Cirdan was closely related to Olwe (and Thingol by extension) - therefore, I don't think his relationship to Thingol/Olwe was anything remoter than them being at least first cousins.

With that said, perhaps I'm twisting that quote too much, and if someone else has an alternative reading, I'd be happy to hear it!