Relationship between Thingol and Cirdan

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

1) Good point about the "-wë" names; however, as you said, Ingwe was one step removed from the generation of Finwe, Elwe (Thingol) and Olwe, so following that logic it's not inconceivable that Nowe (Cirdan) belonged to the same generation as Ingwe (i.e. the generation to which Thingol's and Olwe's parents belonged to).

To be more precise I should have said "-wē" names, because all four of the names I was discussing have to be some form of Primitive Quendian. Voronwë is a Quenya name; I think the vowel sound is actually different, because Nōwē has a long vowel, while Voronwë's umlaut is just marking that the vowel is pronounced.

Tolkien Gateway lists eight -wē names from "Cuivienen and the Great March": Morwë, Nurwë, Ingwë, Finwë, Elwë, Olwë, Nowë, Lenwë. All of them seem to have been energetic leaders, and given we know there were other name-forms around at the time (Ilion, Ingwil), it's hard to see that as pure coincidence. Notably, if Morwë and Nurwë's leadership of the Avari coexists with the presence of the Unbegotten at the Great Debate, the -wē leaders have more authority than the six who founded the entire race.

I think it's very plausible that all of those leaders were born in the Golden Age of Cuivienen - after they were found by Orome, when there were gods and powers walking among them on a daily basis. (NoME says that the Istari and Melian were the Guardians of Cuivienen even when the various Valar weren't present.) The elves who take the lead in big decisions are the ones who have known the Powers literally since birth.

That's about a 200 year span (per NoME). Ingwe was a generation up from Finwe and Elwe, but he was only a few decades older than them; his family must include multiple generations of "later babies" to push it down the ladder to the end of the generation. Cirdan, however, needs to share a recent ancestor with Thingol, so can't have diverged too much in the timing of the babies. I still think he's most likely a cousin.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

2) As to your point about Cirdan possibly belonging to Thingol's "remoter kin", I remembered that I completely overlooked a crucial quote from the PoME:

This quote (to me, at least) implies that Cirdan was closely related to Olwe (and Thingol by extension) - therefore, I don't think his relationship to Thingol/Olwe was anything remoter than them being at least first cousins.

Um, hmm. Not sure on "Olwë and his own nearest kin" implying Olwe is one of his nearest kin. I think it might imply the opposite - "I ran into my boss and my closest friends" doesn't mean my boss is my buddy! I feel like "nearest" implies parents, siblings, etc, not cousins of any degree. But it is all total speculation, of course!

(For ultra extra bonus speculation: if Ingwe's father was Ilion, does that imply Nowe's was *Nolion? Was Finwe son of *Fion, and Elwe the eldest son of *Elion? Can we extend this to brothers, via Elmo - do *Nolmo, *Finno, *Ingmo exist as potential March-born brothers? DEFINITELY NOT but I amuse myself, at least. ^_^)

hS