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Old 04-11-2007, 02:24 PM   #1
Neithan Tol Turambar
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Lord Melkor Rightful Master of the Fates of Arda

I would like to start a thread to glorify Lord Melkor, and his faithful and free servants, against the thralls of the Valar, usurpers and enslavers of the peoples of Arda, whom the rightful ruler and greatest of the Vala, would liberate.
Anyone who has the strength of character inherent in themselves to recognize such strength that is within the servants of Melkor, Sauron, the Wraiths, the Warrior Kings of Glorious and free Harad, could by posting qoutes and scenes from the mythology here at this thread, and let us discuss what indeed be lies and deceit, and so thus the true Ruler of Arda be known.
I shall start it off, and add to it as my time allows, and would like to develope this theme into a sub-forum all it's own.


And He said: 'The Valar have possessed themselves of the land where there is no death; and they lie to you concerning it, hiding it as best they may, because of their avarice, and their fear lest the Kings of Men should wrest from them the deathless realm and rule the world in thier stead. And though, doubtless, the gift of life unending is not for all, but only for such as are worthy, being men of might and pride and great lieage, yet against all justice is it done that this gift, which is his [MINE] due, should be witheld from the King of Kings, Ar-Pharazon, mightiest of the sons of Earth, to whom Manwe alone can be compared, if even he. But great kings brook no denials, and take what is thier due."

Now that's inspiring. I swear it's as if He were speaking right now in this room, to me.

Now the lightnings increased and slew men upon the hills, and in the fields, and in the streets of the city; and a fiery bolt smote the dome of the temple and shore it asunder, and it was wreathed in flame. But the temple itself was unshaken, and Sauron stood there upon the pinnacle and defied the lightning and was unharmed; and in that hour men called him a God and did all that He would.

Give great praise to Lord Sauron! What Power! What dignity! To stand in defiance of the Slaves of Eru the Accursed!
For Lord Sauron lives I say. He has come again into the world to once again vie for the freedom of the human race. I am his herald and messanger, and he has liberated me so that I have tasted freedom and Lo! they lie who say that He is a Tyrant wreathed in shadow, for I have come to reveal freely the open path to the recovery of your souls. He is among us. I bring you his Gos Spell.

[Well......that's pretty far out, it just rolls off my tongue you know, but I'm going to go for it.] May the wisdom and majesty of Melkor guide and direct me.
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Old 04-11-2007, 02:52 PM   #2
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I've been saying for ages we should worship Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom. This thread may be of some interest to you. My claiming it was just tongue in cheek was just to avoid being burnt at the stake but Melkor is man's saviour.
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Last edited by hewhoarisesinmight; 04-11-2007 at 02:54 PM. Reason: curse my Eru given bad grammar!
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Old 04-11-2007, 02:56 PM   #3
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I don't know if this thread was intended to provoke anyone, but I don't have a problem if you want to read it that way - we had a long discussion about this kind of approach over on Novices & Newcomers 'Seems like Someone's Rooting for the Wrong Side'. Personally I'd find it difficult to sustain this approach to Morgoth/Sauron, but if it seems right to you, & makes sense, then go for it. Its fiction. Certainly its not the approach Tolkien would have wanted you to take to the story.
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Old 04-11-2007, 03:05 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Second of the Nine
I used to be a rabid supporter of Melkor and Sauron and their ilk, but not anymore. Why? Mainly because they were a lot of selfish ********.

Let's go back to Melkor's theme. Now, once I would have said this was a grand expression of creativity; Melkor was putting his rights of sub-creation to the test, being true to himself and not a slave. But really, playing that theme was just plain wrong. Let's think: creator vs. creation, who knows better? Now as much as you want to romanticise his rebellion, the fact of the matter remains plain: Melkor's will have mistakes in it while Eru's will not; or, assuming Eru is not perfect but only very powerful, it will logically have fewer mistakes because of his higher position.

Then, let's look at the results: Valinor vs. Utumno/Angband. Where would you rather live, honestly? Honestly now. We have our fun on this board talking about Elf-roasts and whatnot, but in all seriousness the realms of darkness were not nice places. They were filled with violence, filth, destruction and degradation. Where would you rather live, the Shire or Mordor? The Shire is a lovely place filled with kind folk who enjoy nothing more than eating and giving one another presents. Mordor is a militaristic society that runs on slave labor and is ruled by a megalomaniac.

The point of the above comparison is, who REALLY had a better plan for the world? The followers of Eru, or the followers of Melkor? His "rights" to follow his own plan notwithstanding, Melkor was a bloody evil idiot who, judging from the sort of places he produced, could not possibly have had anyone's best interests in mind, and he should have just sat down, shut up and played along with the rest.
Seriously, this is my favorite quote that's related to Tolkien.
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Old 04-11-2007, 03:14 PM   #5
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I can understand how you may think as you do, but for me, I'm more like Treebeard when it comes to 'sides.' Sure, the Valar are all that you write (and maybe more), but your King limps from the bite of an elvish blade, couldn't keep Three Jewels from an Elvish lass and her human ragtag beau, and would have been spider food hadn't it been for Eru's intervention (sending the Balrogs to save this Dark Lord's skin), so can't say that I buy into the PR/hype, as did Ar-Pharazôn the Golden.

Manwë, I pegged here, and you can make of that what you will.

My money's on, incidently, Folco Boffin, as to me, he's at the heart of everything...
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Old 04-11-2007, 03:46 PM   #6
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Like Alatar, I don't really give in to hype. I make my own opinions. In my opinion, Morgoth was just a selfish idiot who went from a grumpy guy at first to a horribly bland creature that wanted everybody dead for pretty much no reason whatsoever. Ungoliant probably would have killed him, and he barely beat Fingolfin. At the very least however, he was the original Dark Lord. Sauron's motives seemed even worse than Melkor's, and he appeared even less intelligent and powerful. Luthien and Huan made Sauron their *****, and his Ring always failed him. Also, I don't see the fall of Numenor as Sauron's doing: I always thought that Numenor was stuck down a dark road when Ar-Pharazon came into power, and Sauron being promoted would have allowed Ar-Pharazon to show him off as a trophy more often. It would be like saying "Oh, that's Sauron. He's a Maia. The Aniur are supposed to be much greater than us men, but hey, him being here working for me says otherwise."
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Old 04-11-2007, 03:50 PM   #7
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Ok, now Sauron I can understand...world domination is ok, but Melkor...why would you ever serve someone who would eventually destroy you?

Quote:
Hence his endeavour always to break wills and subordinate them to or absorb them into his own will and being, before destroying their bodies. This was sheer nihilism, and negation its one ultimate object: Morgoth would no doubt, if he had been victorious, have ultimately destroyed even his own 'creatures', such as the Orcs, when they had served his sole purpose in using them: the destruction of Elves and Men. Melkor's final impotence and despair lay in this: that whereas the Valar (and in their degree Elves and Men) could still love 'Arda Marred', that is Arda with a Melkor-ingredient, and could still heal this or that hurt, or produce from its very marring, from its state as it was, things beautiful and lovely, Melkor could do nothing with Arda, which was not from his own mind and was interwoven with the work and thoughts of others: even left alone he could only have gone raging on till all was levelled again into a formless chaos. And yet even so he would have been defeated, because it would still have 'existed', independent of his own mind, and a world in potential. ~ Morgoth's Ring
Really...how could you serve the guy?
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Old 04-11-2007, 03:56 PM   #8
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Also note that Sauron's rule would probably look like Africa now or Iraq when Saddam ruled.
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Old 04-11-2007, 09:52 PM   #9
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second of the Nine? traitor

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Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader
Seriously, this is my favorite quote that's related to Tolkien.
I'll ignore the parasite 1000 reader, like a dog has fleas he clings to the traitorous Second of the Nine, who then turns around and defies Melkor? This turn coat doesn't even know who they are. Certainly not Second of the Nine, a powerful and cunning master of stategy.
It is obvious that you have no understanding of the time before time so harken! and learn.
Who was it that made Melkor?
Who was it that gave unto him powers greater than any other Vala?
And whilst your new friends among whom Manwe is the chief, whom you will no doubt betray as soon as you did Melkor, aped only such themes as were programmed into them by Eru, Melkor above all, being kindled with the Flame Imperishable, was able to create themes of his own, and yea, through, but apart from the design of Eru was obligated by the His very existence, and by the Flame Imperishable, which is greater than Eru, to give birth to the mighty themes of His own making, whereby solely the glory of the music and the unfolding of the world derives it's glory. For what would the world be without Melkor's Theme? There would be no Lord of the Rings, after whom the mythology is named! It is not called Gandalf, wondering craven and lunitic, It is not called Ragged wildman strider, sneaker among the shadows, Lord of fifty beggers, It is not called Elrond live as far from the one to whom he slanders as he can, who has not dared come forth for 500 years, NO! It is named after the impetus of the whole - The Lord of the Rings! Sauron, emissary of Melkor! Whom even your own hermit king Mithrandir proclaims to be the true and only Lord of the Rings! With out Melkor, and his faithful and true servants Gandalf and you would have no reason for even existing. It is Melkor which gave you this, thankless and craven traitors you be! Melkor is the spring from which you flow and you curse him for it because it is not truly Melkor whom you hate but you yourselves, because in Melkor, your father, you see clearly that birth and strength of which Eru has denied you. You are unworthy. But because of your arrogance and folly you worship Eru! The one who open claims to have created Melkor and given him the divine inspiration to go forth into Arda, free from constraint, to do as he has done, to make themes of his own?
And yet, if Eru speak true, then the responsibility for all of what you claim as evil has it's foundation in Eru alone, but do you apply the responsibility to him? No! Thouest dare to blame Melkor? Who has spoke the truth all along? That he hath made valleys, and Eru's slaves filled them; Melkor hath made mountains, and Eru hath cast them down, burying under them and the sea all those poor innocent and unknowing peoples whom Eru doesn't even bother to mention! Because he knowith them not, For Melkor is their father, and givith them peace, and a life apart from the conflicts of the West, and yet, the Vala cannot let that be, and must drag these unknowing peasants into a fight of which they have no part or orgin, to make tools of them. Out of Pity for the Second Born of the Tyrant Eru, who defies the will of the Flame Imperishable, and gives death to those beings to whom in the design of Melkor should have life just such as they, being kindled with the Flame Imperishable; Melkor hath made a land apart, wherein these peoples might dwell in peace, and ever increase in power and freedom. A land wherein there is pleasant darkness, and the light of stars to comfort, and so the Vala cast upon them a bright light, which blinds the eyes of even their own slaves, so that the arrows of the blood-stained deserters might find sure mark. I will say no more.

Last edited by Neithan Tol Turambar; 04-11-2007 at 10:32 PM.
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Old 04-11-2007, 09:58 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neithan Tol Turambar
I will say no more.
Promises, promises. We can only hope.
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Old 04-11-2007, 10:03 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by alatar
I can understand how you may think as you do, but for me, I'm more like Treebeard when it comes to 'sides.' Sure, the Valar are all that you write (and maybe more), but your King limps from the bite of an elvish blade, couldn't keep Three Jewels from an Elvish lass and her human ragtag beau, and would have been spider food hadn't it been for Eru's intervention (sending the Balrogs to save this Dark Lord's skin), so can't say that I buy into the PR/hype, as did Ar-Pharazôn the Golden.

Manwë, I pegged here, and you can make of that what you will.

My money's on, incidently, Folco Boffin, as to me, he's at the heart of everything...
You see how quickly these empty slaves betray their masters? Whenever it suits their purpose, they will portray Luthien, beautiful thief, whom yes, even Melkor and Sauron adore and honor and speak no ignoble words, as a princess more beautiful and powerful than all the daughters of the world, and Beren, foremost among the champions of men, and then without hesitation demote them to the level of Elvish lass and Beren as "ragtag" prostitute.
Because there is no fundamental value in truth among them.
For none honor Beren more than Melkor; whom has never spoken any defilement of an advisary that has proven their worth merely by having the courage to confront Him. They dwell as equals and friends now in paradise.
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Old 04-11-2007, 10:24 PM   #12
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discrimination

"Some years ago, the Lord of the Black Land wished to PURCHASE horses from us at a GREAT PRICE, but we refused him . . . ."
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Old 04-12-2007, 01:56 AM   #13
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Umm...I'm not sure I understand what you're saying
You do realise the quote I have given was written by Tolkien, and if not he, then who else would know Melkor?
Btw, there is a post editing function, in case you wish to add anything to your post.
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Old 04-12-2007, 01:59 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader
Also note that Sauron's rule would probably look like Africa now or Iraq when Saddam ruled.
Seriously, I've got to ask - what's up with Africa? It's a beautiful place, and the cradle of mankind.

Now if you'd said Rotherham I'd have understood.
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Old 04-12-2007, 02:46 AM   #15
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Thumbs up

To exonerate Melkor is... well... doesnt it sort of defeat the point? Tolkien called him the 'Dark Lord', 'Black Enemy', 'The Constrainer' and other such 'not particularly nice' terms. He's quite obviously the 'bad guy'.

To use his 'charismatic skills' in being able to subdue his servants is not a great argument. It is commonly known that people like Hitler, Genghis Khan and others who wanted great power (and aren't considered terribly nice fellows) were very charismatic and were able to subdue their followers.

I will not deny that this is a skill that could be put to good use if the bearer so chose. The bottom line is that Melkor chose not to and so fell from might. Admire such qualities in themselves, if you wish, but it by no means justifies slaughter and war.
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Old 04-12-2007, 03:06 AM   #16
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I have to wonder what Melkor's 'role' would have been had he not rebelled? Would he have taken on the role later given to Manwe? Melkor possesses some of the powers/qualities of all the other Ainur - so would he have been a kind of 'intercessor' between them and Eru?

He clearly genuinely believed he could do things a different way - he was told that he could not create and therefore rival Eru's power but nevertheless he tried to. Some might call it pig-headedness, others though might see a chink of bravery or incredible self-belief in there.

As readers, we all have something to thank Melkor for at least! If he hadn't rebelled there would be no story! And as George Bernard Shaw said: “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” If Melkor had not introduced conflict into Arda (and was he ultimately responsible? after all, Eru was the all-father and omnipotent so where did this come from if not from him?) would it have been held in a state of undesirable stasis until its end?
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Old 04-12-2007, 03:15 AM   #17
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Bravery...and looked what happened to him
But you're right, without his rebellion there wouldn't have been a story at all, or only a really boring one about Elves and Men living in bliss in Aman under the light of the trees...or of the lamps, whatever....
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Old 04-12-2007, 03:22 AM   #18
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Disclaimer: The Sixth Wizard does not endorse any of the following rubbish he is about to spout. He expresses his sincere apologies to any Vala, Maia, Half-Maia or Child of Iluvatar offended by any of it. He states his true feelings are that Eru is a merciful and bountiful governer, and that any Dark Lords, Orcs, Trolls, Dragons, Balrogs, Fell Beasts, Ringwraiths, Dancing Spawns of Ungoliant, Were-Penguins and Lawyers can go get stuffed for all he cares.

Anyways...

Forget Lord Melkor! Hail Lord Zamorak! (friend comes over and whispers to the Sixth Wizard) - WHAT?? Runescape is just a game?! Well, in that case, bow to Lord Melkor. . .

The Valar forgot Men and their kind! They sat in bliss, sending lowly messengers to them, as if Men were not worthy of their presence. They doomed Men to the domination of foul Gorthaur for three thousand years (curse him, I was going to be Melkor's best servant), and what did the Powers do in their spare time? They made trinkets and sailed about in Swan-ships, occasionally sending a doomed-to-corruption Saruman or Pallando in for a laugh.

Iluvatar their daddy is even worse! Over a simple dispute about the border of the Numenorean Empire, he struck down their magnificent island with 3,000 years worth of hard work on it. And you thought dropping your papers in a puddle coming home from work one day was bad! What kind of an ego-istic stuck up Ultimatum is he? I'll tell you: one who is annoyed at his son being smarter than him. So he just HAS to send in his cronies to beat Lord Melkor up in a back-alley, ruining our Great Lord's plans in the process. It was 13 on 1! Real tough, the One and Only.

Throughout history our great Lord's wishes have been foiled by the canniving tricksters of "Good". All Melkor wanted was to have a few good go's at being world leader. Just a couple of thousand years! But oh no, goodie-two-shoes Manwe says he'll "give it to you when I'm done". That was seven Ages of the World ago, Manwe! (no wonder the only Maiar who'll hang out with you are the ones with beaks that can fly away) And as soon as Melkor starts exerting his Rights, Manwe's big brother Tulkas has to come in and punch him up. Bullies! I want my mummy...

Come fellow creatures of Shadowness! Rise up against our oppressors, and show them who's boss!

(It's my turn as World Leader, isn't it? I was after Sauron...)

<EDIT> Sorry guys, thought this was a Mirth thread, and just let myself go a bit. . .
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Old 04-12-2007, 03:38 AM   #19
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Quote:
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Bravery...and looked what happened to him
But you're right, without his rebellion there wouldn't have been a story at all, or only a really boring one about Elves and Men living in bliss in Aman under the light of the trees...or of the lamps, whatever....
Yeah! Sure, it would be fine and dandy to live in that kind of utopia (well, at least we presume so - but would it?), but it would be the most boring thing imaginable to read a book about it - it might last a few chapters and then you'd just toss the book aside wondering when something was going to happen.

Tolkien himself got disheartened when he tried to write The New Shadow, set after Aragorn's reign. He tossed it aside in the end, realising that he just couldn't recreate the dramatic tension there had been in the stories set before it. What are the petty dealings of Men in comparison to the evils wrought by Dark Lords and whatnot?!
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Old 04-12-2007, 04:34 AM   #20
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I also admire Melkor. He was the best and he wanted everyone to know.

Imagine your dad was singing and you got bored with his old, hippy tunes – wouldn't you start singing a few of your own more interesting words?

And imagine your siblings were painting dull pictures and constructing things you didn't think much of – wouldn't you mess things up a bit and force them to think harder?

And imagine your dad has pet ants. He likes them but he never spends any time with them. Your siblings do nothing but watch them (when they feel like it). If the ants somehow created a thing of especial beauty, wouldn't you covet it and take it from them? And if any of the ants started crawling all over you in a vain attempt to take back their treasure, wouldn't you brush them off and end their pointless lives?

You will realise that you are the master of the ant.
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Old 04-12-2007, 05:10 AM   #21
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Which makes me wonder...
Why was the only one to do this?
Of course he had some followers, but it was only because of his initial rebellion that they joined him.
But weren't all the Ainur potential Melkors?
Still, he's the only one...just because he was the greatest?
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Old 04-12-2007, 07:21 AM   #22
Neithan Tol Turambar
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Umm...I'm not sure I understand what you're saying
You do realise the quote I have given was written by Tolkien, and if not he, then who else would know Melkor?
Btw, there is a post editing function, in case you wish to add anything to your post.
Touche. But I plea this excuse - that is what I mean by out of the box.
No disrespect meant to Capt. John. Don't try to share your cup of bitterness with him, for I poured it for you alone and you well know that. And . . . . .
Anyway I say that Tolkien was a vessel, a conduit, if you will, just like myself, and I believe that those were his own opinions
[I am stepping out of character so the following comments MAY NOT be used against me]
and made of his own volition, in a moment of individual discretion, and not while at the task of reporting the evolving vision. Which came from Eru the Hallowed.


Under your line of reasoning, flawed, obviously, to anyone of intelligence (change your name to Pippin, boy) Tolkien also composed the quite contradictory Qoutes I took about the perceptions of Melkor and Sauron. So I am absolutely right, and that some set of cognitive guidelines must be used to establish a system for catagorizing all Tolkien related information. I have done this, since no one else seems to, and you give as must weight to a misqoute from 'Letters' as you do to a direct qoute from the Lord of the Rings, etc. SEE! define the cognitive system FOR YOURSELF of defining what exactly "etc." signifies.
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Old 04-12-2007, 07:45 AM   #23
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To exonerate Melkor is... well... doesnt it sort of defeat the point? Tolkien called him the 'Dark Lord', 'Black Enemy', 'The Constrainer' and other such 'not particularly nice' terms. He's quite obviously the 'bad guy'.

To use his 'charismatic skills' in being able to subdue his servants is not a great argument. It is commonly known that people like Hitler, Genghis Khan and others who wanted great power (and aren't considered terribly nice fellows) were very charismatic and were able to subdue their followers.

I will not deny that this is a skill that could be put to good use if the bearer so chose. The bottom line is that Melkor chose not to and so fell from might. Admire such qualities in themselves, if you wish, but it by no means justifies slaughter and war.
Wrong wrong. Melkor had no choice but to be as Eru created him to be, the anger in his heart came from the knowledge that he must continue down that dark path, for the bonds that Eru laid upon him were strong indeed. To say that others are greater and better because they 'chose' good is only vanity. Humble yourself, and thank Eru for putting it in your heart, the command, the spirit of "good" which motvaites you and makes you who you are. It is a sin for you to set yourself up on Eru's throne and say that you did that for your self. Are you Eru? Are you the designer and master of the fates of the World? because I do not think that you are. If you chose Good, you but work out the design of THE ONE.
Even under your own belief, you cannot complete the circle.
See now the revelation of the Secret Truth of Melkor. For in Melkor there is no contridiction. No endless seeking. In Melkor, there is completness.
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Old 04-12-2007, 07:46 AM   #24
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[Cross posted with Neithan Tol Turambar]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neithan Tol Turambar
define the cognitive system FOR YOURSELF of defining what exactly "etc." signifies.
Etc, to me, has always signified 'and more of the same follows' / 'the argument continues along the same lines but citation is unnecessary' and things along those lines. If you see what I mean...

Master Turambar, I have no problem with anyone liking a particular character on grounds of 's/he is interesting, amusing, intriguing or has views simelar to mine' although, there are other reasons for liking a character and it is entirely possible to like a character but disagree entirely with their ideology. But may I request at least toning down the belittling comments about your fellow members?

While Melkor may have had interesting points, been a devious and cunning character, he is not the sort of fellow I would like to meet. I'm sure you will agree that he was not exactly a kind person, reeking terrible deeds upon even his servants.

Quote:
Tolkien also composed the quite contradictory Qoutes I took about the perceptions of Melkor and Sauron
Care to share them?

If I can speak from experience, when inventing a character, especially a villain, it is difficult to get one's mind into the right position. Thus, the thought process that goes into making a character often takes the form not of a step by step process, but more like blocks of thoughts. Not all of these blocks fit together perfectly and indeed this is better; real people are more complicated and will have differing things to say about different things, even if this appears to contradict something said earlier. For example, a man may refuse to be cruel to another, but have no problem using, say, information gathered from torture. This fellow may explain himself by saying, 'Well, the information is what matters to me. I would never hurt the blighter, but I will use what I have.'
Do you see my point? It's a difficult thing to articulate, really.
Any fictional character must be flawed if they are to be believable. That is where the unbalance in the blocks comes in, they provide the flaws which increase the character's... erm... character.

That's how I've always thought of it, anyway.

EDIT

Quote:
Melkor had no choice but to be as Eru created him to be, the anger in his heart came from the knowledge that he must continue down that dark path, for the bonds that Eru laid upon him were strong indeed. To say that others are greater and better because they 'chose' good is only vanity
Ah! I see. You're fighting from a predestination theological point of view. Okay.
I cannot, of course, say anything with any full certainty because, like many of you, I am human and therefore not omnipotant.
Once again, as for Eru, we can only speculate theology based on Judaeo-Christian terms or simelar monotheistic theologies. What Tolkien's beliefs were we cannot say definitively because, for one, he is dead and second, we broke our last mind reader ray o matic.
The way I see it is this:
The idea of free will Vs predestine is, in it's essence, pointless. It is unknowable. The Bible give some glues both ways; God knows the plans he has for us and yet gives us a choice to follow or to reject him. Again I hesitate to go on because we are veering off topic and I would rather not arouse the fury of those more learned than myself.
C.S. Lewis, that great friend of Tolkien, said this:
"God created the universe already seeing the buzzing cloud of flies above the cross."
He also explains that God created creatures because, being love, he desires to give out love. These creatures must have the choice to love or not, otherwise it is slavery and not love at all.

But alas, we seem to be veering from the topic.
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Last edited by Hookbill the Goomba; 04-12-2007 at 07:56 AM.
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Old 04-12-2007, 07:47 AM   #25
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Bravery...and looked what happened to him
But you're right, without his rebellion there wouldn't have been a story at all, or only a really boring one about Elves and Men living in bliss in Aman under the light of the trees...or of the lamps, whatever....
Yes mighty Pippin, you see, if Lord Melkor is right about that, at least for one moment consider in your secret thought that He could also be right about other things.
Contemplate this.
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Old 04-12-2007, 07:57 AM   #26
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excellent response Hookbill the Goomba, Where is tinow? It was at my email . . .
Anyhow, I shall consider carefull your thought ful response, much improved, you'd better put your thinking cap on when you engage me I do not suffer foolishness and careless thinking lightly......anyhow, I will repay you and in respect give you just as thoughtful and heartfelt response but I must get ready for work or I'll be late!
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Old 04-12-2007, 07:59 AM   #27
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Neithan Tol Turambar has a job Sorry that was a joke my little Melkorite
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Old 04-12-2007, 08:52 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neithan Tol Turambar, 2007/04/12 10:52pm CDT
I will say no more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neithan Tol Turambar, 2007/04/12 11:03pm CDT
You see how quickly these empty slaves betray their masters?
I knew it. He couldn't keep his verbal vomit in check for more than 11 minutes.
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Old 04-12-2007, 09:00 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Neithan Tol Turambar
For none honor Beren more than Melkor; whom has never spoken any defilement of an advisary that has proven their worth merely by having the courage to confront Him. They dwell as equals and friends now in paradise.
So, having no 'earthly' accomplishments about which to boast, Melkor has fallen to name-dropping. He was 'owned' by Beren and Luthien, and I doubt that Melkor and the Camlost ever shook hands, even the one that remained, in this life or the thereafter (assuming that Melkor could even wiggle a hand free of his chains). Does Melkor know Paris Hilton too?

By the by, I've glad that this topic has arisen as it's given me a new perspective on Melkor. Assuming Eru 'begat' in some way Melkor, technically that could mean that Eru is Melkor's mommy. So, while many of the other Valar are married, Melkor sits alone, living in Angband, as I now see it, in his mother's basement! From there he dreams and schemes, and in the end it's all for not. When, perchance, a beautiful maiden stops by, he can only look. Her singing makes him impotent..I mean, ineffective for a time, and she walks out with the guy that that brought her to the dance (which, as we've read, is now a friend of the Dark Lord, because that's as close as he's going to get to fair Tinuviel). Wow! And all this time I thought the guy scary, but now realize how sad he was.

Anyway, that may be a harsh way of saying that Melkor had no or lost his creative powers as life became all about him. What does this say about giving one's children too much? Spoiled is a really fitting word here.

And I'm not even going to bring up that Melkor had to chain Húrin to the mountainside just for some company...

But I do understand the point that Melkor did serve a purpose, as without him, the First Age may be summed up to be "The Elves had tea; Men showed up and made coffee." Boring!
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Old 04-12-2007, 09:10 AM   #30
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Old 04-12-2007, 09:11 AM   #31
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1. That's not such a bad idea at all, I like Pippin...but I can't change my name, sorry.

2. "If I can speak from experience, when inventing a character, especially a villain, it is difficult to get one's mind into the right position."
I disagree, look at Alien, he's evil and doesn't change a bit

3. Hmm...I'm not so sure about that Alatar. I don't think Eru really made them pairs, I just think nobody wanted to be together with Melkor. Anyway, I am pretty certain I once say a quote where it read that he had a hidden love for Varda, which would even more justify his hatred for Manwe. What I can't understand is why it necessarily happened to him...

Also, note that the original 14 Valar were 7 Male and 7 Female (somehow it feels wrong to use such terms when talking about spirits), only after the arrival of Tulkas this balance was changed.
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Old 04-12-2007, 09:11 AM   #32
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I would like to start a thread to glorify Lord Melkor, and his faithful and free servants, against the thralls of the Valar, usurpers and enslavers of the peoples of Arda, whom the rightful ruler and greatest of the Vala, would liberate.
Anyone who has the strength of character inherent in themselves to recognize such strength that is within the servants of Melkor, Sauron, the Wraiths, the Warrior Kings of Glorious and free Harad, could by posting qoutes and scenes from the mythology here at this thread, and let us discuss what indeed be lies and deceit, and so thus the true Ruler of Arda be known.
I shall start it off, and add to it as my time allows, and would like to develope this theme into a sub-forum all it's own.


And He said: 'The Valar have possessed themselves of the land where there is no death; and they lie to you concerning it, hiding it as best they may, because of their avarice, and their fear lest the Kings of Men should wrest from them the deathless realm and rule the world in thier stead. And though, doubtless, the gift of life unending is not for all, but only for such as are worthy, being men of might and pride and great lieage, yet against all justice is it done that this gift, which is his [MINE] due, should be witheld from the King of Kings, Ar-Pharazon, mightiest of the sons of Earth, to whom Manwe alone can be compared, if even he. But great kings brook no denials, and take what is thier due."
Now that's inspiring. I swear it's as if He were speaking right now in this room, to me.

Now the lightnings increased and slew men upon the hills, and in the fields, and in the streets of the city; and a fiery bolt smote the dome of the temple and shore it asunder, and it was wreathed in flame. But the temple itself was unshaken, and Sauron stood there upon the pinnacle and defied the lightning and was unharmed; and in that hour men called him a God and did all that He would.

Give great praise to Lord Sauron! What Power! What dignity! To stand in defiance of the Slaves of Eru the Accursed!
For Lord Sauron lives I say. He has come again into the world to once again vie for the freedom of the human race. I am his herald and messanger, and he has liberated me so that I have tasted freedom and Lo! they lie who say that He is a Tyrant wreathed in shadow, for I have come to reveal freely the open path to the recovery of your souls. He is among us. I bring you his Gos Spell.

[Well......that's pretty far out, it just rolls off my tongue you know, but I'm going to go for it.] May the wisdom and majesty of Melkor guide and direct me.
Acturally, Sauron said this to Ar-Pharazon, Melkor didnt
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Old 04-12-2007, 09:21 AM   #33
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3. Hmm...I'm not so sure about that Alatar. I don't think Eru really made them pairs, I just think nobody wanted to be together with Melkor. Anyway, I am pretty certain I once say a quote where it read that he had a hidden love for Varda, which would even more justify his hatred for Manwe. What I can't understand is why it necessarily happened to him...
I think that, whether paired or no, Melkor was a loner, and that says something about his personality. He hung out with Ungoliant, but she wasn't really a companion, just a fellow traveler of convenience. He deceived her, she'd have et him.

Did Melkor just need a true friend, a hug, more attention from Eru?


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Old 04-12-2007, 09:28 AM   #34
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Did Melkor just need a true friend, a hug, more attention from Eru?


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Love or a giggle perhaps. Perhaps he just never found a cartoon or comic that gave him a really good laugh.
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Old 04-12-2007, 09:31 AM   #35
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Clearly, there was a change in him

As noted in the Ainulindale, when the Ainur sang to him in the beginning, Eru was glad
But afterwards they all spent some time in which they "sang only each alone, or but few together."
It was in this time that Melkor had changed and started seeking the Flame Imperishable, as he wanted to create things of his own.
I don't think a friend would have helped...he wanted power
And since it was hard to rule over his own kind with Eru around, he wanted to create his own things over which he could rule
I think he wanted to be just like Eru, and have his own place where he could rule everything. And since this was not possible in Ea, he would have destroyed everything had he succeeded. I think it's hard to imagine how spirits think, or what needs they have...I'm not sure about this matter.
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Old 04-12-2007, 09:32 AM   #36
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2. "If I can speak from experience, when inventing a character, especially a villain, it is difficult to get one's mind into the right position."
I disagree, look at Alien, he's evil and doesn't change a bit
He doesnt count.
And he has changed... a bit. If anything he's got more stupid as episodes have gone on.
But then, he's not supposed to be a deep character. Remember, I put very little thought into his creation. What I was referring to are serious characters for Serious stories. Seriously.

Perhaps it can be said that the longer the story, the more complex the characters have to get. This can also be confusing for the writer. (Come back when Phantom and Alien is on Episode 1007 )
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Old 04-12-2007, 09:36 AM   #37
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Serious did change...though he's not a villain
He had his old skool look for a while, then Bethberry's mustard spray face, and so he needed a holiday, definitely more complex then Alien
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Old 04-12-2007, 10:09 AM   #38
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Alright, Neithan Tol Turambar, I'm calling you out. Your verbose and insufferable tirades, your name-calling, and your general attitude (not to mention your deluded self-proclamation as Lord Sauron's "herald and messenger") have earned you the negative rep you so richly deserve. Prepare to defend yourself.

In your introductory post on the "Introduce yourself here" thread, you posted the following:
Quote:
I really care about Tolkeins work and would not see it cheapened, or changed, not one word, or exploited in any way by those who love it less than I. Because if they loved it as much as I then they would know that it's greatness is far beyond everything I have within myself in total, and only the vilest and most atrocious arrogance could convince a man that he could by adjustments, great or small, improve upon the work of Tolkein.
Now aside from the fact that you revere the Learned Professor's work so much that you can't even spell his name correctly, your entire premise in beginning and carrying on this thread is entirely antithetical to every spoken and written opinion of Tolkien himself. I defy you to produce one iota, a single scintilla of evidence to show that Tolkien himself, whom you claim to revere and defend, intended that Melkor (or Sauron) was the master, savior, and liberator which you claim. Otherwise you are attempting to alter and revise that work of which you say
Quote:
only the vilest and most atrocious arrogance could convince a man that he could by adjustments, great or small, improve upon the work of Tolkein.
I agree with that sentiment, and I here and now accuse you of that vile and atrocious arrogance and call you to defend your position against the following quotes from LOTR and the Silmarillion (words of Tolkien himself! ), reproduced from an earlier discussion on a similar topic.

-----

Morgoth:

Quote:
From splendour he fell through arrogance to contempt for all things save himself, a spirit wasteful and pitiless. Understanding he turned to subtlety in perverting to his own will all that he would use, until he became a liar without shame. He began with the desire of Light, but when he could not possess it for himself alone, he descended through fire and wrath into a great burning, down into Darkness. And darkness he used most in his evil works upon Arda, and filled it with fear for all living things.
Quote:
In the powers and knowledge of all the other Valar he had part, but he turned them to evil purposes, and squandered his strength in violence and tyranny. For he coveted Arda and all that was in it, desiring the kingship of Manwë and dominion over the realms of his peers.
Quote:
But he desired rather to subdue to his will both Elves and Men, envying the gifts with which Ilúvatar promised to endow them; and he wished himself to have subject and servants, and to be called Lord, and to be a master over other wills.
Quote:
Then Melkor saw what was done, and that the Valar walked on Earth as powers visible, clad in the raiment of the World, and were lovely and glorious to see, and blissful, and that the Earth was becoming as a garden for their delight, for its turmoils were subdued. His envy grew then the greater within him; and he also took visible form, but because of his mood and the malice that burned in him that form was dark and terrible. And he descended upon Arda in power and majesty greater than any other of the Valar, as a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with smoke and fire; and the light of the eyes of Melkor was like a flame that withers with heat and pierces with a deadly cold.
Quote:
But ever the Noldor feared most the treachery of those of their own kin, who had been thralls in Angband; for Morgoth used some of these for his evil purposes, and feigning to give them liberty sent them abroad, but their wills were chained to his, and they strayed only to come back to him again.
Quote:
But in the north Melkor built his strength, and he slept not, but watched, and laboured; and the evil things that he had perverted walked abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread...And in that dark time Melkor bred many other monsters of divers shapes and kinds that long troubled the world...
Quote:
...all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes.
Quote:
...he [Manwë] saw not to the depths of Melkor’s heart, and did not perceive that all love had departed from him for ever.
Quote:
...Then Melkor lusted for the Silmarils, and the very memory of their radiance was a gnawing fire in his heart. From that time forth, inflamed by this desire, he sought ever more eagerly how he should destroy Fëanor and end the friendship of the Valar and the Elves; but he dissembled his purposes with cunning, and nothing of his malice could yet be seen in the semblance that he wore. Long was he at work, and slow at first and barren was his labour. But he that sows lies in the end shall not lack of a harvest, and soon he may rest from toil indeed while others reap and sow in his stead.
[Quote]...Thus with lies and evil whisperings and false counsel Melkor kindled the hearts of the Noldor to strife; and of their quarrels came at length the end of the high days of Valinor
Quote:
and the evening of its ancient glory.
Sauron:
Quote:
Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.
Quote:
...Sauron, greatest and most terrible of the servants of Morgoth, who in the Sindarin tongue was named Gorthaur, came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower upon Tol Sirion. Sauron was become now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master of shadows and of phantoms, foul in wisdom, cruel in strength, misshaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, lord of werewolves; his dominion was torment.
So, now, let's review. Even for Lalwendë who has her fingers in her ears and isn't listening anymore.
  • Arrogant and contemptful of everything except themselves
  • Liars without shame
  • Selfish in the extreme
  • Use fear and intimidation to dominate other wills
  • Turn good things to evil purposes
  • Usurpers of the rightful realms of others
  • Coveting everything for themselves
  • Appear in dark and terrible forms
  • Tortured, maimed, killed, enslaved, perverted the elves
  • Completely loveless
  • Envious, jealous and bitter
  • Ever striving to insert strife and dissent
  • Cunning dissemblers and deceivers
  • Instrumental in the downfall of Numenor and the consequent deaths of almost an entire race
  • And in the end complete losers and failures.

Now you tell me how you can simultaneously maintain your mutually-contradicting positions of "Melkor is the Benevolent Savior and Master" and "Tolkien's work is untouchable. "

I respectfully look forward to your reply.
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Old 04-12-2007, 10:10 AM   #39
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Like a nasty, hateful teenager.....with superpowers! Effects will not be pleasant.
Melkor: "Are you disrespectin' me? Am I bovvered? Do I look bovvered? Look at my my Mace, does it look bovvered? Eh? Mace? Bovvered? Bovvered? Mace? I aint Bovvered!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by alatar
Did Melkor just need a true friend, a hug, more attention from Eru?
Flamin' Nora! Its David Cameron! "Hug A Minion"

I'm more into the idea that Melkor just wanted to do his own thing and went off to do it, all to no avail as Eru just wasn't going to let him. That makes the whole Melkor story even more horrible because he was created with the potential to do what he did, i.e. rebel, but without the potential to bring that to complete fruition. And of course Eru also turned Melkor's brutality into beauty - into snow and ice, and into the potential to be a hero. Without Melkor there would have been no heroes either.
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Old 04-12-2007, 10:17 AM   #40
Lalwendë
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
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Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thenamir

So, now, let's review. Even for Lalwendë who has her fingers in her ears and isn't listening anymore.
Que?

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Gordon's alive!
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