Survivor: The Second Age

[Lhunardawen]

to save myself, i must



++KHAMUL


++KHAMUL

Not really to save you, Gil, but to save my dear Ereinion. ;)


(if Lhuna is my sister, and Nilp is her brother, and Eomer is brother or cousin, then they're all my kinsmen, right?)I'm sure it's supposed to be more complicated than that, but that must be the Lhunatic side of me speaking.

[mormegil]

++Elendil

He didn't cut the ring off Sauron's finger. He didn't take the white tree. He really was somewhat worthless and his sons were prats.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

++Erendis

Kill! Kill! Kill!

[Anguirel]

Now; be honest; do you even remember whether a Khamul has one hump or two humps?

Ingenious methods of food storage do not qualify one for being a stylish evil minion.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Erendis the Enormous Ego is the bigger threat to existence.

Besides, Lady Spawnowen wants Khamûl to stay, and that's that for me.

Oh, Formodacil, would you count votes for Khamûl when written as Khamul?

(Must . . . find . . . loophole . . . )

[Anguirel]

Erendis the Enormous Ego is the bigger threat to existence.


Quite. What sort of a threat is a mere Khamul?

Obviously to maintain a cogent and interesting Evil presence in the game we should evict Khamul and keep Erendis...

[Lhunardawen]

I'll willingly detract my vote for Khamûl if you help me get rid of Celeborn, Nilp.

Come on...you've done this before! ;)

[Firefoot]

I don't particularly want Khamul or Erendis to go.

++Gil-Galad

Time for some more of those Noldor to go. Gil-Galad's not that interesting of a character anyway.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

We're not talking about interesting evil figures here (like Annatar, for example. Tacky, but interestingly so.) We're talking about the existence of everything whimsical. I don't know about you, but I still want the right to laugh.

[Lalaith]

I'm laughing, Nilph. Just look at my name...

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

If you let Erendis win your name will be changed to Urwen.

[Lalaith]

Where does this "Erendis will win" hysteria come from? I can't think of anyone here who is backing her...

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I'm fueling paranoia here, or trying to . . .

Ah, well. Back to Baltic St.

EDIT: Didn't notice my fiendish sister's offer there . . .

--Erendis

++Celeborn

Do I have your word, then?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I suppose Amandil can wait:



- - Amandil

+ + Celeborn

[Anguirel]

All defenders of Celeborn, you know to vote for the psychopathic cactus-eater Khamul...

[Lalaith]

*shakes head sorrowfully*
For I have promises to keep,
and miles to go before I sleep...

++GIL-GALAD

[Anguirel]

the phantom!

Celuien!

the guy who be short!

Boromir!

Yea even unto the spirit of departed Mithalwen!

'Gainst Khamul we shall ride.

Do you remember the old struggles? The Long Defeat against the Elf-haters?

Then join me, whether this be Nirnaeth or Aglareb, all ye who ever admired the last whose realm was fair and free and/or that tall fellow next to Galadriel.

We have common interests at heart that we cannot let flounder.

And only the Ringwraith Camel who can't handle a drop of water in his egregiously greasy wraith hair stands in our way...

[The Saucepan Man]

All defenders of Celeborn, you know to vote for the psychopathic cactus-eater Khamul...Or, alternatively, for that non-descript non-entity, Gil-Galad (the Elven King that is, not the Downer :D ).

++ GIL-GALAD

I mean, Sauron just wanted to give him a nice warm hug, and he had to go and burst into flames. So much for Elvien resilience. :rolleyes:

Incidentally, Ang, you display a lamentable grasp of Easterling pronunciation.

Khamûl, is of course pronounced Khar-mool, with a guttural "Kha".

Which of course means, in Westron, splay-hooved beast of burden with handy water-retaining features.

[Kuruharan]

Oaths I have taken!

I must fulfill them, etc., etc.

++ Gil-Galad

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Lhuna will hate this.

[the phantom]

Hmm...

I have about the same desire to keep Khamul as I have to keep Gil, so neither represents a victory or defeat.

So who should I vote for?

Well, it seems there are several people who hate elves in general, and particularly want the Noldor to be defeated. This confuses me, because there is not a reason to be against the Noldor and the elves more than any other group.

So, simply to resist this foolishness, I will cast my vote for
+ + Khamul

[lord of dor-lomin]

I was waiting for you to post, phantom, because I thought that you'd at least try to come up with something different- but you didn't, so now it's up to me.

Vote for Orophir!! He's still hanging about in the Sindarin camp. He has to be the most insignificant King in the game. If you Gil-galad voters pick him, you will still get to kill an elven King, and you Khamul voters- most of you are voting for Khamul simply to save Gil-galad, so why should you care?

Vote for
+ + Orophir

Wouldn't it be nice to have everyone get on the same page for one day?

[the phantom]

Um, lord, I doubt most of these people are bright enough to know a good compromise when they see one.

These are the same fools that chose to cast out the great Isildur before his little Ohtar, the same pack of idiots who voted off the most powerful tyrant of the age, Ar Pharazon, before the completely useless Durin III.

I think that the ability to think, reason, and come to logical conclusions is beyond at least half of the participants on this thread.

EDIT: Plus, I doubt there is time to get enough people to change their votes anyway. It's late in the day. You should just vote for Khamul and take the double lynch. The way I see it, a double lynching gets this game over with quicker.

[lord of dor-lomin]

I doubt most of these people are bright enough to know a good compromise when they see one.
No, I think that they are bright enough, they are just choosing to vote stupidly. I'm just trying to convince them to vote smart like they could.
I doubt there is time to get enough people to change their votes anyway.
Ooh, I didn't even think about that.

Okay, okay- I'll do the double lynch like you say.
- - Orophir
+ + Khamul

[Diamond18]

If I may jump in, I'm going to say...

++Gild-Galad

Because his name alliterates and so really, can you take him seriously?

[the phantom]

Because his name alliterates
Same goes for Daffy Duck, but you have no problem displaying him in your avatar.

PS Hi, haven't seen you in forever, Diamond.

[Diamond18]

Same goes for Daffy Duck, but you have no problem displaying him in your avatar.

Well, I try not to take him too seriously, either. ;)

PS Hi, haven't seen you in forever, Diamond.

Oh, I've been around. Scarce, to be true, but here and there, laughing in dark corners and all that. I've seen you. :D

[Anguirel]

(A crowded train carriage. It is filled with Parents, Celebrities, Teachers, Maths Problems, Llamas, and Jack Russell Terriers. It is, to wit, an Assignment to Mordor.)

(We see Anguirel, armoured as usual, in the midst of the press. Closer up.)

ANGUIREL: For the Mordorient Express, this train is running suspiciously efficiently. No delays, no stops, no breakdowns...yet...

(Close up on the llamas. There's something slightly odd about them.)

(The Jack Russell Terriers chase the Teachers and Parents out of the carriage. Ominous music is heard. In fact, it's Britney Spears.)

CELEBRITIES: Ewww!

(They depart en masse. Their envy is positively rhythmical.)

(There really is something odd about those llamas.)

ANGUIREL: My, my...this carriage is certainly emptying quickly! You'd almost think they were about to cut the coupling to it and murder me, ha ha ha...

(The Maths problems sweep out. There is a crack and the carriage skids out...)

ANGUIREL: ...oh, right, they are.

(Pan-out. The carriage is falling off a vast suspension bridge over the Mountains of Mordor.)

(The llamas are falling about. They look really unworried. What is it that's peculiar about them? There are nine of them...)

ANGUIREL: Only one thing for it. Time for a stunt.

(He dives out of the window, twirls in a figure of eight, and lands unscathed on a convenient ridge. To his surprise, he sees that the llamas have done the same. Their convenient ridges are conveniently within convenient reach of his convenient ridge...even if you have splayed feet.)

ANGUIREL: Wait! You're not all llamas! One of you is a camel!

(Anguirel, the Secret Agent, draws Anguirel, the sword.)

LLAMAS AND CAMEL: Any last requests...mortal?

ANGUIREL: (Suavely, in one-liner mode) Yeah. Jump on this sword.

(An epic fight ensues. One by one, seven Llamas are sliced apart or knocked to their doom, emitting high-pitched screeches. Another Llama, wearing a spiky crown, kicks Anguirel hard.)

WITCH LLAMA: I bear a charmed life...

(Anguirel hacks it in half too, though it squeals "I'll be back." He swivels and points Anguirel at the Camel's throat.)

ANGUIREL: Who do you work for?

CAMEL: Haven't you guessed?

ANGUIREL: The Alliance of Ultra-Doom? The League of Extraordinary Barrow-Downers? Ohhhh...Sauron! Annatar! The Lord of the Gift Vouchers! Of course! Where is Amanda now, you fiend?

CAMEL: (cackling menacingly) At her parents' house.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Such jealousy is being demonstrated here. Why are so many great characters being voted for and killed off (effectively)?

++ERENDIS

If you're going to bandwagon, then go after someone worth killing. If you go to a restaurant with two friends and one of them orders lasagne and the other orders chicken, and you don't like lasagne that much but you really hate chicken so you panic and gasp to the waiter "I'll have lasagne!" even though you really want pizza...

...then you're an oddity.

I know this doesn't apply to all of you but it's an attitude which is too often found here!

[Formendacil]

The Eighth day of voting, like the Seventh before it, came down to a contest between two candidates: Gil-galad the High King, and the Black Easterling, Khamûl. But once again, the regicidal tendencies of the populace showed through, and despite numerous misspellings of both candidates' names (sorry, Nilp), the voting was as follows:

Elendil: I
Erendis: I

Celeborn: II

Khamûl: IIIII

Gil-galad: IIIII I

To the woe of Lhunardawen, Ereinion Gil-galad was voted off the game, his chances of winning erased.

Those remaining:

Tribe of the Noldor:
Elrond Peredhil
Galadriel
Celebrimbor

Tribe of the Sindar:
Celeborn
Círdan
Orophir
Celebrían

Tribe of the Númenoreans:
Elros Tar-Minyatur
Erendis
Tar-Míriel

Tribe of the Elendili:
Amandil
Elendil
Anárion
Ohtar

Tribe of the Other Speakers:
Narvi
Fangorn (Treebeard)
Fimbrethil

Tribe of the Baddies:
Sauron
The Witch-king
Khamûl

Day 9 is ready to go. The voting can start immediately. The tribes of the Sindar and the Elendili lead the race in remaining candidates.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Oooh! Here's my chance!

++ERENDIS

Get bandwagoning! :D

[JennyHallu]

++Khamul, for not having humps.

[Anguirel]

Sensible lass.

++KHAMUL, THE, HO HO, THIS JOKE WILL NEVER DIE, CAMEL

I shall have terrible, bloody vengeance for the motiveless destruction that just occurred...

[Kuruharan]

Oooh! Here's my chance!

++ERENDIS

Get bandwagoning!

Statement: My word, you are a man of little variety.

Query: Doesn't this get boring?

[the phantom]

Formendacil- by my count Gil-galad only received five votes.

Diamond18 voted for "Gild-galad". :p
The tribes of the Sindar and the Elendili lead the race in remaining candidates.
Quite right! We should, for the sake of balance, put forward candidates from those two groups.

My two picks would be Ohtar and Oropher.

[Celuien]

Apologies for missing the Khamul appeal earlier, Ang! Celeborn was safe, at least. Though I miss Gil-Galad already.

++KHAMUL THE CAMEL

[The Saucepan Man]

+ + CELEBORN

This is why. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=358218&postcount=804)

He was an embarassment to the title of Elf Lord in the Third Age. I can't imagine that he was any better in the Second.

[Gil-Galad]

Khamul the Easterling..., Cirdan the shipwright...


++Anarion the smashed-in head

[arcticstorm]

I am making it my mission to save at least one Nazgul. Therefore, I will agree with Saucepan and vote for ++Celeborn

[Firefoot]

++Celeborn

He's been sitting in the back of my mind for a while, now. He's just not that interesting of a guy - rather flat. I don't see any outstanding merits of his that would earn him the right to winning Survivor.

Galadriel sure didn't have the greatest of tastes.

[the phantom]

+ + Ohtar
I already gave reasons the other day.

If it comes down to Khamul and Celeborn, I will vote to save Khamul. Celeborn isn't one of my favorites, and we need bad guys to keep things even.

[Diamond18]

++Celeborn

Why? His name shares an uncanny resemblance to that most icky of vegetables, the dread celery stalk, as is well documented in Chapter the 64th (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=197696&postcount=64) of this (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=5751) most accurate and estimable historical tome.

I rest my case.

[Anguirel]

phantom, by supporting the attackers of Celeborn, even if obliquely, you become a pawn of none other than the Alliance of Ultra-Doom.

No longer shall the name of the phantom be loved, worshipped and feared!

Nay, little children shall giggle and point in the street-"There goes the thrall of Saucey..."

[Lhunardawen]

Formendacil- by my count Gil-galad only received five votes.

Diamond18 voted for "Gild-galad".:pthe phantom speaks the truth! *grasps at straws*

So why didn't you Celeborn-voters vote for him yesterDay? :(


I shall have terrible, bloody vengeance for the motiveless destruction that just occurred...Yeah, like he said.

++KHAMUL, Nazgul of the Desert

Not even the Witch-King was given his own name!

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

++Khamul, for not having humps.I'd rather evict him if he had humps.

Let me get this straight, you guys vote for Khamûl because when it's pronounced wrong, his name somewhat resembles the word camel. Well, that's just clever. I mean really, it must be the best reason I've ever heard.


I shall have terrible, bloody vengeance for the motiveless destruction that just occurred...Yeah, like he said.

Now, how did it go again? 'Don't hate the game, hate the player', or something like that. :p I'm sorry for your loss, but it's hardly Khamûl's fault that Gil-Galad got voted off yesterday. You Khamûl voters could have saved the Elf King by voting for Celeborn then. Like this:

++Celeborn


Lhuna, yesterday you said:

"I'll willingly detract my vote for Khamûl if you help me get rid of Celeborn"

Well, wouldn't this be a good chance to get rid of him?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Ah Kuruharan, since you and your faction cannot buy me you mock me with snide words. Such a childish strategy will do you no good. :p

[Anguirel]

Lhuna, listen not to the spawn.

Gil-Galad's fall was engineered by the supporters of Khamul. They must suffer as a result.

Besides, attacking Celeborn is an orthodox and boring to do.

You'll see the same tired arguments coming out.

"He doesn't do much." To which I say, he's too cool to lower himself by getting involved in the plot.

"He's not as pretty as his wife." And your point is? The Queen isn't as pretty as Rosamund Pike; does that mean we should execute her?

"He's a Sinda and we don't need them around." You are a follower of the phantom. Allow yourself to be convinced that pan-Noldorism is counterproductive.

"He's got a stupid Quenya name." He was given a stupid Quenya name at a time when Tolkien was committing such errors as to declare Galadriel morally unambiguous.

"I'm swayed by Saucie's sequence of pictures." Read it from Celeborn's point of view. A decent host suffering a rather trying marriage.


To all Elf-sympathisers-in the words of Russellus Croweus Maximus Australianus, "the only chance we have of getting out of this place alive is if we stay together."


To all individualists-voting Khamul is a rare opportunity to annoy Saucie and the phantom at the same time...

[JennyHallu]

Yay! Perfect! Vote Khamul!

Let me get this straight, you guys vote for Khamûl because when it's pronounced wrong, his name somewhat resembles the word camel. Well, that's just clever. I mean really, it must be the best reason I've ever heard.

We have backup!

[The Saucepan Man]

To all individualists-voting Khamul is a rare opportunity to annoy Saucie and the phantom at the same time...It is, as I have made clear on numerous occasions, no skin off my nose who goes. So to attempt to annoy me in this contest is a fruitless task.

I'm all for annoying the phantom and his Noldorian superiority complex, as and when the occasion presents itself, but today is not such a day.

And it has to be said that annoying you, Ang, is a most entertaining endeavour. :p :D

[Anguirel]

It is, as I have made clear on numerous occasions, no skin off my nose who goes. So to attempt to annoy me in this contest is a fruitless task.


For some reason, Wolfman Sauce, I've never quite trusted your word on that. Oh! Do I hear the squeals of Pippin in my ears? How odd...

Besides, my contacts and researchers have it differently.

Now I'm happy to admit when I'm annoyed. Some people in this world have a sense of justice.

The vote has sung the so-called Alliance's tune long enough!

[The Saucepan Man]

Oh! Do I hear the squeals of Pippin in my ears?I don't see Pippin's name on the roster. Nor indeed that of any Hobbit.

Besides, my contacts and researchers have it differently.Then your intelligence is either faulty or it has been "sexed up" to make it more palatable to you. Unfortunately, both rather common shortcomings in intelligence these days. ;)

[Anguirel]

I don't see Pippin's name on the roster. Nor indeed that of any Hobbit.


What?? An unforgivable oversight.

Right.

I declare:

Sauron Baggins

The Witchroarer

and Khamwise "The Camel" Gamgee all demonically cunningly disguised Hobbits of the Shire.

Stop them, Downers, ere they consume Middle-earth! Also, Saucey will burst into tears when we evict them! Guaranteed!

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Anguirel, you try to be original and an individual so hard that you don't leave yourself much scope. If your vote depends on the amount of people who will get annoyed, it's hardly very independent.


Lhuna, listen not to the spawn.
Ouch! I was just asking her a question.


Gil-Galad's fall was engineered by the supporters of Khamul Your bright logics dazzle me, my good sir. :p

Isn't it obvious that if one doesn't want Khamûl to go, he or she votes for someone else. Usually the vote goes to a candidate who already has votes and thus makes the saving of, in this case, Khamûl possible.

It could have been Celeborn...

[Anguirel]

Well, unless you haven't noticed, that's scarcely a very tempting prospect to me either...

You lot can be sanctimonious about annoying people, because you're fighting the easy battle...

[the phantom]

Well, Ang, if it'll make you happy I'll vote for Khamul and force a tie for now. Since neither is a character that I think deserves to win, I wouldn't be terribly disappointed to see them both gone.

But Kuru and Lalaith haven't voted yet, and we know who they will vote for, so I don't really see the point.

Unless you can talk a few others into it like Eomer and Gil, my vote for Khamul wouldn't matter in the least.

[Anguirel]

You do yourself an injustice, phantom! Everyone will surely flock to follow your vote! Please leap to my side.

Besides, though Lalaith won't break the Alliance, I think she might just abstain in this situation.

I assure you that the newly dubbed hobbit is beloved of your foes. Strike Khamul!

[the phantom]

All right. Since I don't care too much, I suppose it would make sense for me to lend my vote to someone who does care.

To force a tie....
- - Ohtar
+ + Khamul

Eomer and Gil- it's a guarantee at this point that your candidates aren't going to be killed. If it's all the same to you, see if you can keep Khamul even with Celeborn if Celeborn pulls ahead, if for no other reason than Sauce so obviously wants Celeborn to get more votes than Khamul.

[Kuruharan]

The Diamond-encrusted one speaks sense...and she has the good taste to cite a work of literature that I participated in.

++ Celeborn

Ang, have you ever read The Art of War? There are a few good points therein you could profit by...particularly at the end of the first chapter relating to estimates and calculations.

[Anguirel]

You smug Machiavelli/Sun Tzuist, spouting your strategems. I defy you and your cohorts. I trust in passion and taste. And the (admittedly suppressed at present) propensity of truehearted voters to support the underdog.

[Lalaith]

I'm sorry Ang.
The Alliance needs me.
++CELEBORN.
Good night, sweet prince, may flights of angels sing you to your rest.

[the phantom]

I told you those two would vote for Celeborn, Ang.

Unless you can convince others within the next few hours, Celeborn is toast.

[Anguirel]

The Alliance! What is the Alliance?

A dagger of the mind, a false creation...

Wait! Lalaith's vote does not count.

It is not reasoned.

Can you give any reason, lady, any reason for voting Celeborn but that you are swung by your masters?

Only...two...more...votes...

[Lalaith]

Well, his absence might give poor lovelorn Celebrimbor a look-in....
There's a nice romantic, swashbuckling, quixotic reason for you.

[the phantom]

Wait! Lalaith's vote does not count.
You shouldn't have said anything about it, waited until voting was over, and then told Formy.

So, do you think you can round up any votes, Ang?

[Anguirel]

I don't sink that low.

And I can do "any", but "enough" is proving difficult. Where is the League that was monopolising, to paraphrase Theoden?

[Mithalwen]

:rolleyes: but nevertheless in possession of passion and taste.

++ Khamul the Easterling

He is somewhat insubstantial - can't tell if he is Bactrian or a dromedary. But it might explain this nazgul's strange relationship to water.


And Celeborn is the silverhaired, prettyboy trophy husband of the Age.

[Anguirel]

There. Even if I am defeated, it's something that Mith is cut down at my side.

Allow me to fly a banner of blue and silver, just waiting for it to be trampled upon...

[JennyHallu]

I always felt sorry for Celeborn. He was a great man in his own right, but so eclipsed by his wife, who felt free to run rough-shod over him whenever she pleased. Vote Khamul and support helpless, henpecked, husbands!

EDIT: Like mine ;)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Celeborn is awesome. He stormed Mirkwood and drove out the baddies, he's supposedly the wisest guy around in the 3rd Age... I like him and don't want to see him go.

Khamul, on the other hand, is merely a cronie. Sure, he's got his own name, but he's a minion. No will of his own. No point in keeping him around.

++Khamul

[lord of dor-lomin]

To counter The Saucepan Man's obvious anti-elf attitude, I vote for
+ + Khamul

[Mithalwen]

I don't think Celeborn is henpecked .... I do find it slightly distressing in this day and age, when modern women are benefitting form the struggle and sacrifices made by our elder sisters, that in a work, which is so often criticised for a lack of strong, female characters, a man who is prepared to let his wife shine is assumed to be an inferior, emasculated specimen. He must have many great qualities not mentioned in the book.

[Anguirel]

Actually, I think he has several that are mentioned.

1. His emancipated attitude to women, noted above. His acceptance of Galadriel's talents, and his chiding of Boromir for ignoring old wives' tales...

2. Evident military ability seen in his three defences of Lorien and subsequent conquest of Dol Guldur.

3. Ability and popularity as a ruler. He stayed on to rule a contented Rivendell without his wife, and apparently lasted a good long time (fanfic authors even like to say he left in the Seventh Age...)

[Folwren]

I don't know who I am making angry with this vote, or who I help (except the one who wrote me), but I'm casting this vote. . . and hoping I won't find it necessary to cast another.

++Khamul

- - Folwrey

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Actually there's something to be said for Celeborn, faithful husband, etc..
So - - Celeborn

+ + Khamul

[Boromir88]

Found some more time. I think I'll vote for

++Khamul

I mean he's only second in command of the nazgul, far inferior to the Witch-King. I'm usually a pro-keep the bad guys around, because they make really good TV rankings, but he's second in command. He's a chump, he's useless. Celeborn brings in much more ratings because of the girls swooning over him and wanting Galadriel murdered.

[littlemanpoet]

++ Khamul because he was a Black Numenorean who couldn't even live long enough to earn his ring, it had to be given to him on a dare.

[mormegil]

++Celeborn

I haven't been able to keep up with everything much but Celeborn's problem is that you have to use a "k" to pronounce his name. Plus he's already too wealthy with all of his inventions and nobody likes rich people to win more money.

[The Saucepan Man]

To counter The Saucepan Man's obvious anti-elf attitude ... :rolleyes:

Evidence, my dear chap?

There are a number of Elves that I would be quite happy to see winning this thing. Indeed, it is regrettable that Celeborn looks likely to remain another day and thereby continue to bring shame upon such a (mainly) noble race.

I would, however, challenge the assumption of Elven (and most particularly male and Noldorian) superiority that certain people appear to make.

The Alliance, by the way, is most pleased by the reaction, and most particularly the sheer desperation, that it is provoking. And, since the phantom and Anguirel seem to have got it into their heads that I am the evil genius at the centre of it all, I shall take the credit, even though I do not deserve it. :D

Although I am personally displeased to see the balance of the tribes heading out of kilter. That won't be good for the viewing figures, mark my words.

On a slightly different issue, it seems to me that there are a number of unreasoned and weakly reasoned votes (on both sides) this day. Are you going to start getting tough on this sort of thing Formy?

[Formendacil]

The Ninth day of voting was a furious contest in which the rivalry of the day before, of Gil-galad and Khamûl. Gil-galad may have been gone, but his supporters wanted revenge. Furthermore, another Elf was in danger: Celeborn.
For much of the day, it appeared to be a close race, but in the end there was a clear winner. The voting fell as follows:

Erendis: I
Anárion: I

Celeborn: IIIII II

Khamûl: IIIII IIIII II

And so was Lhunardawen avenged for the death of Ereinion, for Khamûl the Black Eastering was removed with the greatest number of votes yet seen for a candidate.

On a slightly different issue, it seems to me that there are a number of unreasoned and weakly reasoned votes (on both sides) this day. Are you going to start getting tough on this sort of thing Formy?

Not today... but that could be because I personally prefered Celeborn to remain over Khamûl. For the sake of interest, here's how the voting would have fallen, had I followed my more stringent tendencies:

Erendis: I
Ohtar: I

Khamûl: III

Celeborn: IIII

So, you see, good people, that if- one of these days- I should follow my more stringent side, the outcome could be very different. Very different indeed.

Meanwhile, today I did NOT do that. Tomorrow may be different.

Those remaining:

Tribe of the Noldor:
Elrond Peredhil
Galadriel
Celebrimbor

Tribe of the Sindar:
Celeborn
Círdan
Orophir
Celebrían

Tribe of the Númenoreans:
Elros Tar-Minyatur
Erendis
Tar-Míriel

Tribe of the Elendili:
Amandil
Elendil
Anárion
Ohtar

Tribe of the Other Speakers:
Narvi
Fangorn (Treebeard)
Fimbrethil

Tribe of the Baddies:
Sauron
The Witch-king

Day 10 begin now. Vote away! The Elendili and the Sindar continue to have the most remaining candidates. The Baddies are now clearly losing.

[Diamond18]

May I be so bold as to inquire, Form, which of the 4 Celeborn votes would have made the cut under your more stringent tallying? Most importantly, would mine have?

[Anguirel]

++SAURON

He's shown an inability to protect his own minions and to carry out any successful scheming. The Witch-King frequently shows enormous potential and as a Child of Illuvatar would make a far more interesting Dark Lord.

If Sauron goes today I will lay off my persecution of the Witch-King of Angmar.

EDIT: The only way the "reasoned" tally makes sense is if you're discounting all the votes referring to Khamul as a camel...including Mith's piece of sparkling comic genius...

[Lhunardawen]

Thank you, everyone, for helping me exact my revenge. Especially you Formendacil for having such a mood as you had when the Day ended. :D

I'm sorry dancing spawn, but I am left far too devastated by Ereinion's death to even bother about Celeborn - who I now see deserves to last longer in this game.

My next target? ++OROPHIR

Come now...look at what he has helped bring forth into the world! Captain Obvious himself! :eek:

Besides...I didn't even know who he was before I asked Nilp. :o

[Lalaith]

Names I will not take from you, of elf-hater or thrall.

I am neither. Furthermore, I respect fine battle-craft in my enemies as well as my allies, and can only admire the mustering that occured in the dying hours of the campaign last night.

I remain, however, committed to balance in this game, and feel that in the spirit of fairness we should focus on one of the most numerous tribes today - the Elendili or the Sindar. To prove I am no mindless elf-culler, I choose the Elendili. Here, the obvious candidate must be Amandil.
He doesn't want to be on Middle Earth anyway. He proved it not just in his actions, sailing off to the west, but in his very name: it means "devoted to Aman".

So vote off Amandil. It's what he would have wanted. Those years being 'wormtongue' to Ar-Pharazon have taken their toll, as well....

++AMANDIL

[JennyHallu]

++Orophir, because 'e's 'orrible.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I imagine it won't be long before my campaign spawns a tribe of Erendis fanboys. :D

I thought of another reason to dislike her: poor parenting. She could never make the sacrifice could she? If her child could be happy only at the cost of her putting in a little effort, then she wasn't gonna do it, dammit! And it's not just the personal effects; think of the responsibility to her country. And she had no interest in leading. Utterly unworthy of being Queen.

Selfish, selfish, selfish. So unlikeable.

++ERENDIS

[Anguirel]

Hmmm. Lalaith interests me.

We can't keep any Aman-loving lickspittles here, certainly...

--SAURON, ++AMANDIL

[The Saucepan Man]

The Alliance of Ultra-DOOM is pleased to announce, for the edification and enlightenment of all, the following principles of its conduct and actions, most particularly as there currently appears to be a great deal of misunderstanding in this regard, some of it no doubt intentional.

The Alliance is not controlled by any one person, but is rather a cooperative venture of free thinking but like-minded members.

The Alliance is not anti-Elf.

The Alliance is not pro-Bad Guys.

The Alliance does, however, wish to challenge the assumptions made by certain members that being an Elf and/or a King and/or male, should automatically earn a contestant a free pass to the final/winners' podium.

The Alliance has no favoured candidate, but merely wishes to see a balanced contest with all contestants given a fair chance, and perhaps have a little fun challenging those who would seek to take control of the show along the way by bringing a modicum of chaos and unpredictability to the proceedings.

Thank you for your attention.

~The Alliance of ULTRA-Doom~

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Celebrimbor

Stop the ring madness before it begins.

You gotta' nip it in the bud, Andy!

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

I'm sorry dancing spawn, but I am left far too devastated by Ereinion's death to even bother about Celeborn Well, that makes two of us now.


Hmm, who's this Orophir? A long lost twin of Oropher, or perhaps some distant relative of Orophin? :p

In any case, it is not time to vote for him today.

You know, there are some people who can make a comeback gracefully. Then there are those who just don't seem to realize when their time in the limelight is over. I'm speaking, of course, of Elrond. He wasn't a success during the previous seasons, and although they say that one should never give up, if he never wins and never gives up, that's plain folly.

To be fair, let's take a look if he did anything special during the Second Age that would stand out in his favour.

Firstly, he did some fighting. Whether violence is a way to solve conflicts, that's another question, but was there something special in that? Come on, it was the Second Age, who wouldn't have been in a battle or two? Secondly, he founded Rivendell. Well, I have mixed feelings about this. I mean, a little bling bling like Vilya and anyone could have done that. Besides, I have my doubts of his motives. Tra-la-la-lally?


The "Caveman" is not going to make it till the end anyway, so let us give the first timers a chance and get rid of those who have already proved their inadequacy to become a survivor.


++ELROND

[The Saucepan Man]

Tra-la-la-lally?Ooh yes, I had forgotten the Tra-la-la-lallies. Now that's tempting. But then, so is Celebrimbor and his Ring-based larks. And Amandil too, with his ill-conceived voyage West.

Hmm, tempting choices all ...

[The Saucepan Man]

I have decided to propose an alternative candidate.

Imagine the scene. Cirdan the Shipwright is sat with his feet up by the fire in his house in Alqualondë, his great-great-great-great-grandchildren on his knee.

“Great-great-great-great-grandsire, what did you do in the First Age?”

“Looked after the harbour, built some ships, avoided battles.”

“And what did you do in the Second Age?”

“Er - looked after the harbour, built some ships, avoided battles.”

“And what did you do in the Third Age?”

“Um - looked after the harbour, built some ships, avoided battles …”

*silence*

“Oh, and I gave Olorin a Ring of Power.”

“Cool. Why?”

“So I didn’t have to get involved.”

“Oh! Anything else?”

“Yes. I grew a beard.”

“And what did you do in the Fourth Age?”

“Finished looking after the harbour, built a ship, sailed West.”

“Man, great-great-great-great-grandsire, you’re a loser.”

+ + CIRDAN

And before anyone starts shouting "Elf-Hater"", the Sindar remain one of the two strongest tribes. I would like to even things out and my heart has been moved by the strong feelings that many have shown for Celeborn. Indeed, I find it within mysef to feel a little sympathy for the poor emasculated, hen-pecked fellow. :D

[JennyHallu]

OOohh...excellent point...and you used my word to describe Celeborn...

SO...

--Orophir
++Cirdan

I'll go back to voting off people with funny sounding names tomorrow. I started a lovely trend with the desert camel...

[Anguirel]

“Great-great-great-great-grandsire, what did you do in the First Age?”

“Looked after the harbour, built some ships, avoided battles.”

“And what did you do in the Second Age?”

“Er - looked after the harbour, built some ships, avoided battles.”

“And what did you do in the Third Age?”

“Um - looked after the harbour, built some ships, avoided battles …”

*silence*

“Oh, and I gave Olorin a Ring of Power.”

“Cool. Why?”

“So I didn’t have to get involved.”

“Oh! Anything else?”

“Yes. I grew a beard.”

“And what did you do in the Fourth Age?”

“Finished looking after the harbour, built a ship, sailed West.”

“Man, great-great-great-great-grandsire, you’re a loser.”



Well, when you put it like that; but then, this is slightly more accurate...


“Great-great-great-great-grandsire, what did you do in the First Age?”

"Refused a command by the Valar to go and get cuddled, maintained a realm despite everything, saved the young High King of the Noldor, and protected a Silmaril."

"Ooo. What about the Second Age?"

"Spotted that the apparently helpful Maia wandering around was the Dark Lord in disguise, rescued loads of doomed Elves, saved an Elven Ring, defeated Sauron with my pals and adviced Isildur not to take the One Ring, then said I told you so."

"Ooo. By the Third, you're pretty old; you must've retired? Did Elrond give you a pension?"

"As it happens, shrimp, no, he did not. I gave my Elven Ring to exactly the right person out of a choice of five; all the other four turned out to be flakes, hippies and capitalists. Then I saved a Palantir, tried to rescue a King of Arnor, helped beat the Witch King, was one of the Wise, overthrew Dol Guldur, sent a monkey to the Council of Elrond, provided solace for Elves everywhere, that kind of thing..."

"Hang on, Great-great-great-great-grandsire, you're exaggerating, I don't believe you..."

[JennyHallu]

He sent a monkey to the council of Elrond? And Elrond let the monkey attend???

For that, he should live and Elrond should go away.

--Cirdan
++Elrond

(Can anyone tell I'm feeling indecisive today?)

[The Saucepan Man]

Well, when you put it like that; but then, this is slightly more accurate...Hey, why let the facts get in the way of a good story ... :p

And much of your account is, in fact, either conjecture or exaggeration. Mostly, he just stayed put safe in his harbour.

And, even putting the best spin on his life, as you have done, he can hardly be described as an Elf of great action. Not at all like those sons of Feanor that you so adore ...

[Mithalwen]

For I find myself in agreement with the Saucepan Man, a rare occurence which happens only when obscure planets are in alignment. HE may have silver hair and pointy ears but I hate sailors (yotties not RN) and beards with a passion so:

++Cirdan

[The Saucepan Man]

For I find myself in agreement with the Saucepan Man, a rare occurence which happens only when obscure planets are in alignment.Zounds! If you're not careful, you'll end up flying the St George Cross from your car this summer. ;) :D

[Mithalwen]

..not even for Coronation day or the Queen's official Birthday ...... certainly not for a bunch of men kicking an inflated pig's bladder around a field... :rolleyes: - an exploding pig's bladder maybe..but then that would be alternative comedy not sport. :D

[the phantom]

All right. So, what's happened so far today?

Lhuna made a sensible vote for the little known Oropher.

JennyHallu wisely added her Oropher vote, but more recently she changed her vote to Elrond because of a monkey which did not actually exist. I'm not too impressed with Jenny right now.

Lalaith came forward and made a good argument for Amandil, and Anguirel considered her argument and voted with her. A pat on the back for the both of them for making a good pick.

Eomer continued voting for Erendis. Erendis certainly needs to be ousted at some point, but for some reason I, nor anyone else, seems to be interested in doing it now.

Then The Saucepan Man stepped in and claimed that he wan't anti-elf, and then proceeded to vote for an elf. Seven of his ten votes this game have been for elves, and the three that weren't for elves were for Numenorian Kings with elf-blood running through their veins. Sure... SPM isn't anti-elf. :rolleyes:

That being said, SP's choice of Cirdan isn't a terribly bad selection, and I don't blame Mithalwen for siding with him.

Tuor comes along and votes for Celebrimbor, in an effort to stop the whole Ring thing. Well, I hate to break it to you, but the Rings will still happen so long as there are other elven-smiths in Hollin as well as Sauron. If we kill Celebrimbor, the three powerful elven rings won't get made, and thus Lothlorien and Rivendell will be diminished. And also, don't forget that Gandalf took one of the rings, a ring to help support him in his weariness and help him kindle people's hearts, and without that ring he probably would not have been successful. So, if you want Sauron guaranteed a Third Age victory, go right on ahead and get rid of Celebrimbor.

Next, we have Dancing Spawn come along and cast her vote for Elrond, proving that she is much prettier than she is intelligent. Her reasoning is that Elrond wasn't a success in a previous season of Survivor. What kind of non-reason is that? And then she gives another reason- that anyone could have founded Rivendell with the power of Vilya. There, she is showing her stupidity. Elrond did not have Vilya when he founded Rivendell. At that time, Vilya was still with Gil-galad.

[JennyHallu]

Agh! The Phantom isn't impressed with me! What shall I do?

What shall I do? I shall go straight back to voting for people on the basis of their names.

++the phantom

We're all dead, what makes him THE phantom? Isn't he just A phantom?

And...

--Elrond, ++Orophir, because 'e's 'orrible. Sorry, Ang, I will not be able to take the anti-monkey platform today, as A phantom has pointed out that monkeys don't exist.

[The Saucepan Man]

Hello TP (or is it AP), how nice to see you here. Charming as ever, I see. :rolleyes:

Seven of his ten votes this game have been for elves, and the three that weren't for elves were for Numenorian Kings with elf-blood running through their veins.Hmm, I wonder how that could be. Perhaps because a third of the original contestants were Elves and most of the rest were Numenorean Kings ... :p

[the phantom]

what makes him THE phantom? Isn't he just A phantom?
If you haven't noticed, I am intelligent and have a good sense of humor. You see, I am the model of a phantom, the phantom by which all other phantoms are judged. Sort of like all basketball stars are compared to the great Michael Jordan.

By changing your vote to Oropher, Jenny, you have increased your phantomicity. Keep up the good work.
Charming as ever, I see.
Yes, yes, I'm always so kind and subtle when arguing, aren't I?

You might find me more agreeable if all the participants on this thread were more logical. :p
Perhaps because a third of the original contestants were Elves
So, because 33% were elves, you voted for them 70% of the time?
and most of the rest were Numenorean Kings
And, because most of the rest were Numenorean Kings, you voted for them every time you weren't voting for an elf?

I'm sorry, Sauce, but I won't be fully convinced that you aren't anti-elf until I see you vote for one of the Other Speakers, or a man without elf blood.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Next, we have Dancing Spawn come along and cast her vote for Elrond, proving that she is much prettier than she is intelligent. Her reasoning is that Elrond wasn't a success in a previous season of Survivor. What kind of non-reason is that? And then she gives another reason- that anyone could have founded Rivendell with the power of Vilya. There, she is showing her stupidity. Elrond did not have Vilya when he founded Rivendell. At that time, Vilya was still with Gil-galad.Really now? You just know how to compliment a girl, don't you? :p

Interesting that you should pick me to accuse of having insufficient reasons to vote for Elrond when just yesterday there was a bunch of people throwing their votes around because of the word 'camel'. I don't remember you expressing your disapproval to see people voting Khamûl based on that, and yet today you say that you are disappointed with JennyHallu. Her vote for Elrond was just as good as any of those that were cast for Khamûl.

However, I shall forgive you speaking rashly because for some reason you seem to be attached to Elrond and your feelings are clearly slowing your thoughts. If I may quote the Encyclopedia of Arda:

It [Vilya] was originally held by Gil-galad, but he passed it to Elrond at the time of the founding of Rivendell.

As to the 'non-reason', I said that Elrond wasn't great in the last shows, and then I took a look at his doings in the 2nd Age. My conclusion was: nothing special this time either. When you add that to the list, I don't see why to keep him around.

[JennyHallu]

Ineresting that you should pick me to accuse of having insufficient reasons to vote for Elrond when just yesterday there was a bunch of people throwing their votes around because of the word 'camel'. I don't remember you expressing your disapproval to see people voting Khamûl based on that, and yet today you say that you are disappointed with JennyHallu. Her vote for Elrond was just as good as any of those that were cast for Khamûl.

Why yes it was...if you look back, you will find that I started that particular bandwaggon...I am quite inordinately proud of it. First bandwaggon I ever started that actually managed to accumulate passengers.

No one who lives in a desert should 'ave a name that looks like "camel". Delightful, but far too obvious.

I'm only voting for Orophir because his name makes me start dropping H's right and left. So there, One of Many Equally Renowned Phantoms!

EDIT: And can I send my non-existant council-monkey to sit on your back?

[Anguirel]

Jenny, I don't want to be proprietorial, but actually I started the Camel-Khamul campaign the day before...

Great minds thinking alike?

Oh and it's my monkey, it exists, it's canon and it's called Galdor of the Havens...

[JennyHallu]

Drat. You're right. And I've always thought great minds thought differently (thus the potential for greatness).

And the monkey thing...

You have a pet werewolf (Hi!). So why can't I have the Elven-Counsel-Monkey?

And I meant to ask you...can you make paavo come clean my room?



Sorry...it's Friday...this is what passes for intellectualism for me, on Fridays.

[Anguirel]

Because both the pet werewolf (hi there!) and Galdor the Elf-Monkey are about to play a crucial role in helping with the Hunt for Amanda...

[JennyHallu]

What's the 'Unt for Amanda, and what was your answer on the room-cleaning?

As for Horophir...

I should probably look up who 'e is, shouldn't I?

All this WORK. Always more WORK. Is this learning schtuff a Barrow-Downs conspiracy?

According to some sources, the father of Thranduil and grandfather of Legolas, who ruled a great realm of Silvan Elves in Greenwood the Great (later to be called Mirkwood). He went to the War of the Last Alliance, where he was slain with two-thirds of his army, but his son Thranduil survived and returned to rule his father's woodland kingdom.

So 'e was a king, and 'e 'ad a son, and then 'e took all 'is warriors and got 'em killed, and then...oh wait, that's it.

Yup. Dropping H's. Perfectly good reason to vote for the cheeze.

[the phantom]

Really now? You just know how to compliment a girl, don't you?
I try.
when just yesterday there was a bunch of people throwing their votes around because of the word 'camel'
You'll notice I never used that reasoning myself. I thought it was senseless, but seeing as they were voting a way that didn't bother me I didn't see the need to say anything. Got it?

And, wow, you actually looked up Vilya in the Encyclopedia of Arda? I honestly didn't think you had thought this thing through that much. I suppose I should give you some credit for that, though your information is wrong. According to the appendix in LOTR, Gil-galad "before he died gave his ring to Elrond". But Rivendell was founded in 1697, nearly 1,800 years before Gil-galad's death.

Also, Rivendell was founded only four years after the three Elven Rings were hidden, and we know Vilya was originally given to Gil-galad.

Not to mention the fact that Rivendell was founded while SAURON HAD HIS RING! During that time, the elves DIDN'T USE THEIR RINGS. So even if Elrond somehow had Vilya in his possesion during that time, he didn't use it.

So, no- Elrond did not use Vilya to found Rivendell, no matter what your precious encyclopedia may say.

I think you should be willing to change your vote just out of respect for the facts I've brought up. And if not for that reason, you should change your vote because it pains me to see someone so beautiful make such an ugly decision. ;)

*hopes flattery will work*

[JennyHallu]

I think we should petition Arda for a fix. I need EoA! It is my lifesaver when I dig myself into holes in Books discussions!

And, Unique (like all the rest of us) Phantom, I think we should vote to irritate you just for proving it wrong!

--Horopher who did...um...nothing

++Elrond who listens to Monkey-Advice

[the phantom]

I think we should vote to irritate you just for proving it wrong!
So, it is your desire to irritate and vote against the person who has been trying to provide you with accurate information? How absurdly stupid.

You see, Jenny, this is exactly why I am the phantom. Everyone else is too inept to measure up.
++Elrond who listens to Monkey-Advice
Wow. That's really convincing. Especially when you realize that there was no monkey, and that Elrond really didn't take anyone's advice besides his own and Gandalf's. Elrond and Gandalf pretty much had already decided what to do and didn't really take the advice of the others. Instead, they convinced the others to side with their superior wisdom. Elrond was a leader.

[JennyHallu]

Elrond was a manipulator, who probably thought of himself as The Elf. ;)

EDIT: And willful blindness is a powerful thing...those who meddle in it must be cautious.

[the phantom]

Completely wrong, Jenny. Elrond did not think of himself as "The Elf". In the books, his lack of self-praise and cockiness compared to other Lords and his readiness to admit when something was beyond his power is part of what makes him so unique.

[Eonwe]

Back from a long absence on this thread (WW, of course, left me stripped of all free time, even that devoted to other portions of teh 'Downs), I will way in here.

This is a bit of a different game. Many of the contestents are somewhat obscure, at least to me. Therefore, it is hard for me to form any very concrete convictions on who should stay and who should go.

However, I have assembled a list of those that I do have strong fealings about, and these are as follows:

Celebrimbor: He really must command a postion of great respect. This is not the age of tortured, convoluted and tragic personalities sacraficing all that is beautiful in a vain lunge for a fleeting hope (ie. Feanor, and the Three C's). This is the age of reconsiliation, where the son will redress the wrongs of the father.

Celebrian: I like her. Though she never is granted an appreacance, as far as I know, in any histories, she still commands a place among the great. But for her, the race of Men would be sadly diminished.

Cirdan: Would you really denign one so great and steadfast as Cirdan a place in the finals? One who, along side, Galadrial, has fought the "long defeat" and not in the super-nova bursts, again, of other tragic figures such as Feanor. He is a steadfast rock, picking up the pieces of the fallen, gathering the lost and the weary.

Anarion: A great man of his age. Hereis a stalwart champion of the cause aganist Sauron and his minion, the Witch King.

Sauron and The Witch King: What are we here for, but to defend against the suble encroachment of evil?

[mormegil]

But the one point I want to quickly make is that we are talking about the Second Age Elrond here. The same one who was a follower and obeyed when told to retreat. Elrond grew in wisdom and lore but in the Second Age he wasn't as great. He was more of a vassal then a true leader.

[Eonwe]

Morm, who would you have leading this? Gil-galad is not present, or has been voted off already, by a vile lynch-mob imflambed by rabble-rousers. Same for Elendil and Isildur. It seems as Elrond is the only one left...

[The Only Real Estel]

I'm going to go off in a different direction here and vote ++ Fangorn (Treebeard)

I mean, come on he’s a complete disgrace – he can’t even remember what his woman looks like!!!

[Kuruharan]

Announcer: And we’re back to Second Age Survivor brought to you by Stompa Exterminators. Whenever your house, flet, hole, or many pillared hall of stone is infested with pesky varmints, Remember Stompa Exterminators!! “We’ll stamp out the problem!!” I’m joined here in the booth by my good friend Bob.

Color Commentator: Hello.

Announcer: Bob, what do you make of the continuing action?

Color Commentator: I…ahhh…what lovely music…I wonder where it is coming from…

Announcer: I believe it is coming from that fellow over there. His queer long coat from heel to head is half of yellow and half of red. He himself is tall and thin, with sharp blue eyes, each like a pin. He has light loose hair, yet swarthy skin. Hmm…most strange. I wonder where that came from?! Anyway, he seems to be playing upon some sort of strange pipe. All the rats and mindless children seem to be following him wherever he…Bob? Bob?

Color Commentator: I must follow the music…

Announcer: Bob! Get off the field! It is not safe down there!!

Color Commentator: …the muuusaakk…

Announcer: Great! Now we have to decide if Bob is a rat or a mindless child. Unfortunately, I now have no color commentator to do my thinking for me. Hmmm…it is a bit of a catchy tune…such…lovely…muuuusaakkk….

[The Saucepan Man]

Charming as ever, I see. Yes, yes, I'm always so kind and subtle when arguing, aren't I?Ah yes, I had rather forgotten that irony is sometimes unappreciated across the Atlantic. :rolleyes:

So, because 33% were elves, you voted for them 70% of the time?

And, because most of the rest were Numenorean Kings, you voted for them every time you weren't voting for an elf?

I'm sorry, Sauce, but I won't be fully convinced that you aren't anti-elf until I see you vote for one of the Other Speakers, or a man without elf blood.Predictable as ever, too, I see.

You just don't get this show, do you?

Had I and other like-minded people not voted in the way that we have, I calculate that Elves and Numenorean Kings would now comprise over two-thirds of the remaining contestants and be well on their way to comprising 100%. Which would be rather dull.

I appreciate that this is how you would like to see it but, and you might want to sit down here because this will come us a bit of a shock, not everyone shares your opinion and neither should they.

The point is that the Elves and Numenorean Kings, as a group, started out with an unfair numerical advantage. I have simply been seeking to redress that imbalance.

But you are right. I should not always vote for Elves and Numenorean Kings. So I will vote for a Half-Elf instead.

- - CIRDAN
+ + ELROND

:p

It was the "tra-la-la-lallies" what done it. And, in the Second Age, he was a mere flunky. Not a worthy winner at all.

[Celuien]

But the one point I want to quickly make is that we are talking about the Second Age Elrond here. The same one who was a follower and obeyed when told to retreat. Elrond grew in wisdom and lore but in the Second Age he wasn't as great. He was more of a vassal then a true leader.


Yes, but with the benefit of our position on the space-time continuum, we can see his potential for the Third Age. Where would the world be if we voted out the Einsteins, Beethovens and other giants before their greatness came to fruition? Nowhere.

I'm actually quite tempted to vote with The Wolfman Sauce. There are valid points to be made about Cirdan's uselessness. But such an earth-shattering event might cause the show to implode. :p

And so

++ERENDIS

Eomer is correct. Her selfishness renders her an unworthy candidate.

EDIT: I see that Sauce has changed his vote to Elrond. No chance of agreeing there. The Universe is safe. ;)

[Anguirel]

I declare Amandil the save-Elrond vote-suggested and endorsed by the only unprejudiced and trustworthy member of the Alliance, Lalaith...

Seriously, people are about to prefer some has-been Numenorean Valar-licker to the must subtle of the Wise, who harboured a refuge of joyful song and scholarship in hard times.

Defend Tra-la-lally's place in Canon.

Vote Amandil-an act which will follow the hypocrite Saucey's stated intention to balance the tribes, by lessening the over-mighty Elendili.

[the phantom]

in the Second Age, he was a mere flunky. Not a worthy winner at all.
Being second in command to a King instead of King does not make someone unworthy in any way. They are still the same person.

If we use your logic, we should vote off all non-kings, yet I doubt that is truly what you want to see, Mister Pan-Man.
It was the "tra-la-la-lallies" what done it.
Wait a minute. Your previous quote claimed that what happened during the Second Age was what was important, and yet here you try to use as evidence something that happened in the Third Age.

You can't have it both ways. Only one of those rather poor arguments can be used. One disqualifies the other.

[JennyHallu]

Since I am your pet werewolf...ok

--Elrond

++Amandil

(wait a second, I thought it was following you that had me voting for Elrond. Wasn't that your monkey?)

[Anguirel]

I was defending Cirdan...not attacking Elrond...

phantom, are you ready for another profitable partnership? (Notice my cunning diplomatic non-use of any article, definite or indefinite...)

[The Saucepan Man]

Wait a minute. Your previous quote claimed that what happened during the Second Age was what was important, and yet here you try to use as evidence something that happened in the Third Age.Tsk tsk, a phantom. You think that the tra-la-la-lallying only started in the Third Age?

I declare Amandil the save-Elrond voteAh good, a win-win. :D

[Kuruharan]

Ah good, a win-win.

pssst...you're not supposed to tell them when they are being manipulated. ;)

[Anguirel]

Ah, Kuru. I was hoping to see rather more of you last night. I was wondering if you'd read certain sections of the De oratore Ciceronis...?

You would derive enormous profit from them, you know...

[the phantom]

phantom, are you ready for another profitable partnership?
Well, I'm hoping that enough members of this thread are smart enough to vote for a candidate that makes sense. I really hate to gang up on someone this early.

But, as the day goes on, if a worthy candidate continues to be threatened, you can count on my support, though I'd rather make someone else the save-Elrond candidate. Getting rid of Erendis would appease Eomer, and maybe get him on our side. Fangorn is a pretty boring candidate, and wouldn't be missed by me. And I still think Ohtar needs to go.

[The Saucepan Man]

pssst...you're not supposed to tell them when they are being manipulated.Doh!

It's just too easy, though. ;)

[Kuruharan]

Ah, Kuru. I was hoping to see rather more of you last night. I was wondering if you'd read certain sections of the De oratore Ciceronis...?

You would derive enormous profit from them, you know

Alas, last night I had a date with a Robert Browning tale...another moral you might consider pondering...

[Anguirel]

Fra Lippo Lippi?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

O Phantom! You try to suggest a partnership and then bash Treebeard immediately?

No deal! :p

[Kuruharan]

Fra Lippo Lippi

Well, actually…however, I doubt if you would see the applicability (or humor) of that particular remark...a phantom probably wouldn’t either…

Alas, that was not the tale I meant.

...although, now that I think about it, the two notions I've had could be tied together.

[the phantom]

O Phantom! You try to suggest a partnership and then bash Treebeard immediately?
I suppose I could help preserve Treebeard for a short time, but do you really want Treebeard to win this thing?

If so, then I guess there can be no deal. Too bad.

[The Only Real Estel]

O Phantom! You try to suggest a partnership and then bash Treebeard immediately?

No deal!


Hey, who said the partnership was with you? ;)

Actually, I myself wouldn't mind being somewhat on your side, Eomer, but how can you support a scumbag like Treebeard? :eek:

[Diamond18]

As of right now these are the fast paced and ever changing stats:

Amandil: 3 votes

Elrond: 2 votes

Erendis: 2 votes

and 1 vote each for Celebrimbor, Fangorn, and Orophir.

Amandil leads? No, no. In defense of Amandil, he was the leader of the secret faction that opposed Ar-Pharazôn in its earliest stages. This was a great risk!

Yet there dwelt still a remnant of the Faithful, as has been told, at Rómenna and in the country near, and other few there were here and there in the land. The chief among them, to whom they looked for leading and courage in evil days, was Amandil, councillor of the King, and his son Elendil ...

Also, it has been said that voting Amandil off gives him what he wants. But consider that it was a great risk to journey to Valinor, and indeed we don't even know what happened to him. He headed for Valinor to try and save mankind, not because he thought he'd be drinking martinis with Manwë, after all! And the thanks he got? He could be dead at the bottom of the ocean for all anyone knows. So saying that he would desire to leave the game is fairly ungrounded, he only left Númenór because he was desperate to save Númenór and was willing to die trying.

"...But it is for mercy upon Men and their deliverance from Sauron the Deceiver that I would plead, since some at least have remained faithful. And as for the Ban, I will suffer in myself the penalty, lest all my people should become guilty."

This game is not about saving men, ergo no reason for him to leave.

I don't want to see Elrond go, first of all he has a really cool name, and second of all he was one of the last great Elves to remain in Middle-earth, so I don't see him as much of a quitter. The tra la la's are pretty damning, I must admit, but for now at least I would rather see more of a sideline character go, such as:

+ + Erendis

[the phantom]

A very fine defense of Amandil, Diamond.

Anguirel- please consider Erendis as your candidate.

[Eonwe]

++Erendis

I really don't know how this guy is. Maybe I'm Middle-Earth deficient. Either way, I like the other ones better than this.

[lord of dor-lomin]

+ + Erendis

She's probably the best choice of those that have votes. I mean, what did she do, besides get angsty and bitter in her later years?

[Gil-Galad]

++Anarion the head smashed in


lay his broken body to rest already

[Kuruharan]

I'm going to cast a vote against somebody who broke the rules in order to beg for mercy for everybody breaking the rules. A greater spasm of illogical thinking you'll never find (outside of this thread and werewolf).

++ Amandil

[the phantom]

Ha ha! Very good, Kuru. When you put it that way, Amandil looks like as good a choice as Erendis.

[Diamond18]

Seems to be a dead heat between Amandil and Erendis, with four (4) (IIII) votes each!

But come now, can you see Erendis risking her life to save others, misguided rule-breakers though some of them might be? Let he who has no sin cast the first stone, after all.

EDIT: Oops, silly me, I forgot to count my own vote, which puts Erendis at five (5) (IIIII) votes! Things are looking up.

[Kuruharan]

H.A.G. will be greatly displeased if Erendis is voted off. She is practically the poster child for everything they stand for...

The producers are hovering on the edge of hysteria (again)...

[mormegil]

++ Amandil

The name makes me think that he's the Dill Pickle of Aman and that just isn't kosher with me. Also it will make things interesting. Besides he didn't have any particular authority to go to the west. He calls himself 'faithful' and yet breaks the ban himself. Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

[littlemanpoet]

I choose three keep this a dead heat, five how can we have a true bitter fivemer lovers' quarrel if we don't keep it even? So....

++Erendis

.....erhereis at the Erendis of all erthingsis.....

And if you desire further erudition as three the reasons five voting five Erendis to leave the Third Age (yes I know but inflation being what it is :rolleyes: ), see above reasonings which I found quite plausible and pausible, not to mention passable and decidedly impossible; and a little implacalbe come three think of it. So there. Well, Fivemendacil, is this reason enough?

[Formendacil]

The Tenth day of voting was a day of wheeling and dealing. Votes were shifted back and forth, and several candidates appeared as fully possible lynchees. In the end, the voting fell as follows:

Oropher: I
Anárion: I
Celebrimbor: I
Círdan: I

Elrond: II

Amandil: IIIII

Erendis: IIIII I

Eomer of the Wargs let out a great cry of victory at the eviction of his least-favourite candidate, while H.A.G. plotted his assassination...

May I be so bold as to inquire, Form, which of the 4 Celeborn votes would have made the cut under your more stringent tallying? Most importantly, would mine have?

Actually, it's my policy to keep them secret.

The main reason being that, since my "stringent" form of tallying votes has no consistent criteria, I don't want arguments about who's vote is legit and who's isn't.

That was the idea yesterday, anyway. Today I simply cannot recall whose names made it...

Oh, and Spawn, thanks for pointing out the Spelling Error regarding Oropher. Clearly, my thoughts do not dwelling on Sindarin princes...

Those remaining:

Tribe of the Noldor:
Elrond Peredhil
Galadriel
Celebrimbor

Tribe of the Sindar:
Celeborn
Círdan
Oropher
Celebrían

Tribe of the Númenoreans:
Elros Tar-Minyatur
Tar-Míriel

Tribe of the Elendili:
Amandil
Elendil
Anárion
Ohtar

Tribe of the Other Speakers:
Narvi
Fangorn (Treebeard)
Fimbrethil

Tribe of the Baddies:
Sauron
The Witch-king

Day 11 may now begin. Vote away! The Elendili and the Sindar continue to have the most remaining candidates. The Baddies, however, are now tied with the Númenoreans for losing.

[mormegil]

++Elrond

Agent Elrond must go. He's not that wise yet, he's not funny, he's has limited personality. He's just not working out and it's time to let you go.

[Anguirel]

++SAURON

Don't you want to see the Witch-King giving Mordor an Angmar-style makeover?

Compare the Witch-King's destruction of Arnor to Sauron's failed invasions of Gondor.

It's clear that as well as having a more interesting character and being a Man, not some intoxicated spirit, the Witch-King has vastly, vastly more Dark Lord potential...

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

You'll notice I never used that reasoning myself. I thought it was senseless, but seeing as they were voting a way that didn't bother me I didn't see the need to say anything. Got it?Of course I get it, but I still think that it's a bit unfair to grumble only against JennyHallu just because she voted for a character you like. But that's not essential here, so never mind.

And, wow, you actually looked up Vilya in the Encyclopedia of Arda? I honestly didn't think you had thought this thing through that much. I suppose I should give you some credit for that, though your information is wrong. According to the appendix in LOTR, Gil-galad "before he died gave his ring to Elrond". But Rivendell was founded in 1697, nearly 1,800 years before Gil-galad's death.

Also, Rivendell was founded only four years after the three Elven Rings were hidden, and we know Vilya was originally given to Gil-galad.What! The day when the Encyclopedia of Arda is wrong, the skies will rain crickets and Finland wins the Eurovision Song Contest!

Let's see... I quote you, phantom:

Gil-galad "before he died gave his ring to Elrond".
Rivendell was founded in 1697, nearly 1,800 years before Gil-galad's death.

I don't see how these two sentences would rule out the possibility that Elrond used Vilya to found Rivendell. And as long as I don't see the contradiction, I keep using the Encyclopedia of Arda as my source material against Elrond.

Not to mention the fact that Rivendell was founded while SAURON HAD HIS RING! During that time, the elves DIDN'T USE THEIR RINGS. So even if Elrond somehow had Vilya in his possesion during that time, he didn't use it.

So, no- Elrond did not use Vilya to found Rivendell, no matter what your precious encyclopedia may say.
Well, my precious encyclopedia says:

"Elrond remained in Rivendell, where he prospered with the aid of the Great Ring, Vilya."

and

"It [Rivendell] lay in a deep valley in the western foothills of the Misty Mountains, and endured, under the protection of Elrond's Ring Vilya."

So, at least at some point Vilya was used. Whether it was used when Rivendell was founded or not, it is not so important. Anyone can put up a tent in some valley and call it a refuge.


I think you should be willing to change your vote just out of respect for the facts I've brought up. And if not for that reason, you should change your vote because it pains me to see someone so beautiful make such an ugly decision. ;)

*hopes flattery will work*I think you should be willing to vote for Elrond just out of respect for the facts I have brought up. And if not for that reason, you should vote for him because it pains you to see me voting a different character than you. ;)


++ELROND

[the phantom]

So, at least at some point Vilya was used.
Umm... duh. Of course Vilya was used in some way at some point. All the rings were used in some way at some point. I'm not really sure why you think that somehow justifies voting Elrond out.
Anyone can put up a tent in some valley and call it a refuge.
Yes, anyone can make a refuge, but not everyone can put up a refuge that can stand up for a considerable time against Mordor. Here's some quotes from LOTR-
'Is Rivendell safe?'
'Yes, at present, until all else is conquered.
Indeed there is power in Rivendell to withstand the might of Mordor, for a while
The House of Elrond is more than a mere refuge, and Elrond is more than a mere elf. He can control a friggin' river, for goodness sake!

Can Ohtar claim that? How about Oropher?

Then why aren't you voting for them?
I think you should be willing to vote for Elrond just out of respect for the facts I have brought up.
I can't see that you've brought any new information to the table. You haven't disproved a word of what I've said. All that you managed to do was to say that Elrond, at some point, used Vilya, which hardly qualifies as valuable information.

Way to go, Spawn. You've proven that you are not only unintelligent, but stubborn as well. There's nothing I love more than someone who doesn't know what they are talking about and then refuses to change their opinion despite good information.

PS You can reverse my opinion of you rather quickly simply by changing your vote to a better candidate.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Umm... duh. Of course Vilya was used in some way at some point.I'm glad we agree. Yes, anyone can make a refuge, but not everyone can put up a refuge that can stand up for a considerable time against Mordor.One word: Vilya.

The quotes of Rivendell that you provided are from the Third Age. I doubt the refuge that Elrond founded in the Second Age was as glorious as it was later after he had had time to make it stronger with the aid of Vilya.

Also, I'm not voting for people based on if they can control a river or not.

I can't see that you've brought any new information to the table. You haven't disproved a word of what I've said. Neither have you, m'dear. One thing you got right, though. I am stubborn.

PS You can reverse my opinion of you rather quickly simply by changing your vote to a better candidate.So, you respect people who blindly follow your opinion whatever it is and don't use their own brain? Sorry, not interested. :rolleyes:

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Yes! Erendis is out! Joy encapsulates! :D

Diamond, Estel, whoever wants my help: NO DEAL. I said before that the squabbling factions are highly unattractive, and not more so than badgering singletons. So have at it!

Eliminate my favourite character Treebeard if you want. I'm sure he'd rather be back in the forest away from the reality-show fashionistas anyway.

I am outta here. :p

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

I forgot one thing...

All the rings were used in some way at some point. I'm not really sure why you think that somehow justifies voting Elrond out. I never said that I vote for Elrond because he had a ring. You might want to reread my case before this debate totally loses its track.

[Kuruharan]

...somebody comes along and busts it up?

Oh well, when one thing doesn't work, move on to something else...

++ Cirdan

An Elf being in Middle-earth for three ages is just downright unnatural.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

A planet where elves evolve beards from copying men!

+ + Cirdan

[Diamond18]

The early race is between Elrond and Cirdan (2 votes each), with Sauron tagging along in the back with 1 vote. While it might thrill certain tie-hungry sorts around here **coughKurucough** to see Sauron get another vote, I am not sure it would do well to deplete the Baddies so completely at this point.

So, that leaves Elrond and Cirdan (I am not in a mood to try starting a new movement, myself). This is a tough choice, as both characters seem fairly equal to me. I have no great dislike for either, but do recognize their imperfections. I can't say either of them deserve to be the coolest of the cool and win the whole thing, so this leads to somewhat of a toss up. I could stick with my earlier defense of Elrond, but that was in relation to Erendis, not Cirdan, so today is a new day and I want to treat it as such.

Looking over the early arguments, I have to say one thing stands out. There is something rather nasty going on between certain members -- I would name names but it hardly seems necessary. Any compliments I received yesterday are always appreciated, but it distresses me to see the downright un-sportsmanlike verbal attacks that are going on today.

So, I am going to tip my rather ambivalent scale and with a farewell pat on the back for Halfelven, vote:

+ + Elrond

[Eonwe]

++Oropher

Firstly, who is the guy? What are his qualifications? Any cool thing he's done?

The thing is, nobody can come up with a satasfactory reason to boot Cirdan or Elrond, or Sauron, for that matter. Catagorically.

[The Only Real Estel]

++ Elrond

Is where I'm leaning at the moment...there are good points for & against him of course & I might change my mind but at the moment I'm leaning towards Spawn's course of action (& others ;)).

[Celuien]

Oropher

Firstly, who is the guy? What are his qualifications? Any cool thing he's done?


Can't think of a thing. How dull.

+ +OROPHER

For contributing little, if anything, to the history of Middle-earth.

[Elu Ancalime]

++Elrond

I swear he's a sissy. But mainly to protect Oropher and Cirdan.
Firstly, who is the guy? What are his qualifications? Any cool thing he's done?
Oropher brought Rennisance to the Silvan elves of Mirkwood. Bringing to ignorant into the light. What a great guy. And he died a warrior's death at the Last Alliance.

Cirdan? I wont say the most successful of the Sindar lords, but the least disatorus. He never made his people stand to fight when the best hope was a Phyrric victory. He even sacrificeed his Legolas-comparable good looks so that others could keep theirs!

Why are we voting for compassionate, warm elves?
________
Buy extreme q vaporizer (http://www.vaporshop.com/extreme-q-vaporizer.html)

[Kuruharan]

...I'll have to make a slight change.

-- Cirdan

++ Elrond

I mean honestly, he went with the Last Alliance as the "herald" of Gil-Galad! Talk about your cushy jobs. Heralds are used to communicate with the enemy. What in the world could the Elves/Men/Dwarves have had to discuss with Sauron? The guy went along and didn't do a thing.

[Gil-Galad]

sooner or later your all going to have to vote for Anarion...


++Anarion

[Kuruharan]

sooner or later your all going to have to vote for Anarion

True. The Elendili do need pruning. However, a vote by you for Elrond today might help the Anarion cause tomorrow...

[Elu Ancalime]

sooner or later your all going to have to vote for Anarion...

So vote for him later. Any of the Elendili should be candidates for the winner, minas Ohtar, who has been dealt with.

Anarion- Joint King of Gondor, whose line was filled with notables such as Hyarmendacil victor of Umbar, and Gondor outlasted its sister kingdom which was far away from Sauron. Anarion had his own city and he died a war hero, whose death might have caused Gandalf and Theoden to remeber it in front of Orthanc, saving their lives.

Elendil-Obviously. Elf-Friend, High King of the Dunedain, the Noah of the Numenoreans, whose realm was nothing but 'Kingly-Land.' Elendil should be winner!

Just some thoughts for tomorrow if you want to kill off a father and his son.
________
Honda cm400 (http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Honda_CM400)

[Gil-Galad]

--Anarion

++Elrond


i expect your vote for Anarion in the future Kuru

[Elu Ancalime]

i expect your vote for Anarion in the future Kuru

Why dost though persecute a noble so?

Kuru, if you want to do some real damage, why not landslide Celembrimbor....
________
Range rover (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Range_Rover)

[Kuruharan]

i expect your vote for Anarion in the future Kuru

If I were a loyer, I'd wiggle out of that by saying you didn't specify time and place. However, I'm a dwarf of my word, as spawn can attest to, so I'll vote for him for a day or two and see what happens.

Kuru, if you want to do some real damage, why not landslide Celembrimbor

I had pretty much promised by implication already. Besides, landslides are difficult to arrange and rarely go entirely as planned.

I'm sure Celebrimbor will be on everybody's agenda at some point.

[Elu Ancalime]

If I were a loyer, I'd wiggle out of that by saying you didn't specify time and place.
at some point.

XP
________
Dodge wiki specifications (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Dodge_Wiki)

[littlemanpoet]

++ Narvi

For creating a puzzle that almost cost the Fellowship of the Ring entrance into the Mines of Moria, which almost cost the loss of Gandalf the Grey which almost cost the Free Peoples Gandalf the White which almost led to Saruman making mincemeat out of Rohan which means Minas Tirith would have fallen and Aragorn never would have gotten the palantir to distract Sauron away from Frodo and Sam. So it's all Narvi's fault that it almost happened.

Besides, he's just a Dwarf. Who gives a rip about Dwarves? In the second age?

[JennyHallu]

Not poor li'l old Narvi's fault Gandalf was not at his best...it was SAURON'S!

But I always have sympathy for the guys you know are going to lose, so...

++Amandil, for being dense.

[the phantom]

Yes, anyone can make a refuge, but not everyone can put up a refuge that can stand up for a considerable time against Mordor.
One word: Vilya.
So, in other words you are saying that Elrond only has great power because of Vilya?

While it's true that the elven rings augment power, they cannot turn a slightly better than average elf into an amazingly powerful elf. It takes someone who is great already to make good use of an elven ring.

It's sort of like with the One Ring. The more powerful the bearer, the more that can be done with the Ring. Frodo had no chance of rising up and overthrowing Sauron with the One Ring- it was beyond his power. But greater individuals might've been able to use the Ring to militarily conquer Sauron's armies.

As a matter of fact, Tolkien specifically says in letter 246 that Elrond would've been especially capable of overthrowing Sauron with the One Ring- more capable than Galadriel, Cirdan, and Gil-galad. It is obvious from that that Elrond had a great amount of personal power aside from any ring.
Why are we voting for compassionate, warm elves?
If you don't want compassionate, warm elves to be voted for, you certainly need to change your vote away from Elrond. Read the story of Aragorn and Arwen in the back of LOTR and you will see how kind Elrond is. I mean, compare his reaction to the reaction of Thingol to Beren.

Tolkien even calls Elrond "kind as summer" in The Hobbit.

So, Elu Ancalime, if you keep your vote for Elrond you are an absolutely huge hypocrite.

If any of you honestly think that Elrond should be out before Oropher, your brain is wired incorrectly. There's a reason a lot of people don't know the name Oropher where as everyone knows Elrond. Oropher isn't worthy of recognition, and thus is unworthy of staying in this game.

+ + Oropher

[lord of dor-lomin]

I received a message from the phantom ordering me to vote for Oropher, and after viewing the circumstances, I believe I shall.

+ + Oropher

I haven't seen any decent defensible textual reason why Elrond should leave right now, particularly before Oropher, who most of you probably had to look up to find out about.

I agree with those before me that there is a reason Oropher is not well known- he didn't do anything worthy of keeping him alive in this game.

PS phantom I'm going to try and get my cousin on here to help you, if she even remembers how to log in that is :D

[Firefoot]

++Oropher

He's pretty much useless, and Elrond deserves to stick around to the end more than he does. I don't know that Elrond should win, but Oropher definitely should not.

[Formendacil]

The Eleventh day of voting was quieter than its predecessor, possibly due to its falling on the weekend. A clear trend towards anti-Elrond voting seemed to be growing... In the end, the voting fell as follows:

Sauron: I
Narvi: I
Amandil: I
Círdan: I

Oropher: IIIII

Elrond: IIIII I

However, due to a certain Moderator's stated threat of recounting votes so that only those with Tolkien-based reasoning (as judged by his own criteria) were counted, the voting REALLY fell as follows:

Sauron: I
Círdan: I
Narvi: I

Elrond: II

Oropher: III

Oropher is gone. Those wishing for an Elrondian eviction must wait till the morrow.

Those remaining:

Tribe of the Noldor:
Elrond Peredhil
Galadriel
Celebrimbor

Tribe of the Sindar:
Celeborn
Círdan
Celebrían

Tribe of the Númenoreans:
Elros Tar-Minyatur
Tar-Míriel

Tribe of the Elendili:
Amandil
Elendil
Anárion
Ohtar

Tribe of the Other Speakers:
Narvi
Fangorn (Treebeard)
Fimbrethil

Tribe of the Baddies:
Sauron
The Witch-king

Day 12 may now begin. Vote away- but remember that only those votes with Tolkien-related rationale are guaranteed to be counted! The Elendili now hold a clear lead.

[Diamond18]

However, due to a certain Moderator's stated threat of recounting votes so that only those with Tolkien-based reasoning (as judged by his own criteria) were counted, the voting REALLY fell as follows:

I rather hate to say it, but it appears to me that your criteria is simply based on how you want things to go. By your own admission, you counted all the non-Tolkien-based votes for Khamul just because you wanted to save Celeborn, and you have now taken your "stringent" stance to save Elrond. If you are to be the moderator you ought to give up "personal criteria" in the name of being fair and impartial. Moderators don't dictate the game, they simply observe and tabulate. I don't believe it should be the moderator's role to judge the votes, not secretly, and certainly not when said moderator admits to personal bias. And if you don't say whose votes you counted and whose you did not, that creates even more of an unfair, partial flavor to the whole thing. Because by leaving your "own criteria" un-explained you break the very rule you expect the other players to heed.

For one thing, it takes all the strategy and variants out of the game -- or, should I say, takes the Game out of the game. A strict, Tolkien-logic-only based discussion of character merits belongs in The Books. This is Middle-earth Mirth. If players aren't allowed to play a Survivor-esque game of Middle-earth Survivor, I'm not sure why anyone should bother.

[Kuruharan]

I rather hate to say it, but it appears to me that your criteria is simply based on how you want things to go.

-and-

This is Middle-earth Mirth. If players aren't allowed to play a Survivor-esque game of Middle-earth Survivor, I'm not sure why anyone should bother.

Hear, hear!

And far be it from me to mention somebody's inability to keep a consistent ending time in the context of this discussion...

[Lhunardawen]

Gasp! The mod's suffering from terrible mood swings! :eek:

So what's the real score? Do I have to vote for Oropher again, or should I spread trouble elsewhere?

[Lalaith]

I didn't even get a chance to vote yesterday...partly because I had NO idea when the voting day would end, they seem to fluctuate as wildly as said mood swings.

Ho Hum.

[Diamond18]

As I said above, I don't see how the game can continue the way the votes are being counted (or not counted :rolleyes: ) without being a sham, so I hope, Form, that you will either agree to count all votes or make it clear which votes you are counting and which votes you are not. Also the "criteria" as to what is Tolkien enough or not Tolkien enough should be made crystal clear and should not change from round to round.

But that is in reference to the future. What is now past ought to be fixed.

My suggestion at the moment is this: either reinstate Khamul and evict Celeborn, or reinstate Oropher and evict Elrond. Because you cannot have it both ways without admitting that you are not playing fair with us. I know it's a bold suggestion, but we have all invested a bit of time and thought into this game, so I hope you don't mean to claim full power.

I'm going out on a limb here, but I think the recent tabulations merit a bit of an outcry.

[Lalaith]

Quite.
What is this, a Florida election?
*ducks under hail of hanging chads*

[Anguirel]

You Parliamentarians, the Mod is Mod and his power is absolute. If you don't like it, work against it, but he provides the frameworks of the game and that gives him certain rights.

See the Silmarillion Survivor for an example of how a completely and openly skewed moderator can actually add some sense of purpose to the game...I hope...

[Lalaith]

You know, much as I love them, this sort of thing is exactly how the Cavaliers constructed their own demise. If only they'd stayed writing nice poetry, and wearing pretty clothes, all right-thinking people would have stayed on-side. But when they started fooling around with the democratic process....

[Lhunardawen]

In any case, let's get on with it.

++CELEBORN

He's just a silver-haired shadow of his gorgeous golden-haired wife. (Telperion and Laurelin, anyone?)

Come on! You know you love him...not!

[Diamond18]

You Parliamentarians, the Mod is Mod and his power is absolute. If you don't like it, work against it, but he provides the frameworks of the game and that gives him certain rights.

I would draw the line at the right to make the game completely pointless if the fancy strikes. If his power is that absolute I will simply leave the game -- it's the only sure course of action for us little people to take. But the reason, make no mistake, will be because I no longer think the game worth playing.

I would like to remind people of this post (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=450930&postcount=170) made earlier in the thread. In it, Form lays out the revised rules, which seem to me too ambivalent, but I will go with them for now.

This is, don't forget, a Tolkien-based game. So, I would like to see, if possible, some reasoning, preferably Tolkien-based, no matter how illogical or distorted, to accompany your votes.

It says "preferably" Tolkien-based, but not "most-definitely", and it says "no matter how illogical or distorted" so that means reasonings related to a game-play strategy are admissible.

So let us review today's votes, taking the stated criteria for "rationale" into play:

Morm kicked things off with a vote for Elrond citing personality faults. 1 for Elrond.

Ang followed up with a vote for Sauron, citing his inferiority to the Witch-King. 1 for Sauron.

Spawn reiterated her detailed attack on Elrond from the day before. 2 for Elrond.

Kuru voted for Cirdan citing his too-long stay in Middle-earth. 1 for Cirdan.

Tour voted for Cirdan, citing his beard. 2 for Cirdan.

I came along and took stock of the situation, found a tie needing to be broken, and after some thought found the contestants pretty equally matched. Because I still thought the tie ought to be broken, I used the reasoning that I did not approve of certain of Elrond's supporters' actions. 3 for Elrond.

Eonwe kickstarted the Oropher vote, citing the character's lack of oomph and criticizing the reasons for the voting thus far. 1 for Oropher

Estel voted for Elrond, citing good arguments by Spawn and others. 4 for Elrond

Celuian voted for Oropher, agreeing with Eonwe. 2 for Oropher.

Elu voted for Elrond, citing his lack of manliness, and also a desire to protect Cirdan and Oropher. 5 for Elrond

Kuru changed his vote to Elrond, citing a desire to matter in the vote tally, which I grant could or could not be taken to mean he agreed with the reasons of those against Elrond. 1 for Cirdan, 6 for Elrond.

Gil-Galad voted for Anarion, citing a long held vendetta against the character. 1 for Anarion.

He then made a deal with Kuru to cast a vote against Elrond in return for future support against Anarion. To me, this falls under the same reasoning as why he wants Anarion gone (which I am assuming has been stated earlier, correct me if I'm wrong). 0 for Anarion, 7 for Elrond.

LMP cast a vote for Narvi, citing various Tolkien-based reasons. 1 for Narvi.

Jenny voted Amandil, for being dense. 1 for Amandil.

phantom voted Oropher, citing unworthiness due to obscurity. 3 for Oropher.

lord voted Oropher, citing the fact that Phantom ordered him to, lest he be spanked. Oops, I mean, he agreed with Phantom. 4 for Oropher.

Firefoot voted Oropher, citing uselessness. 5 for Oropher.

Final vote count? 7 for Elrond, 5 for Oropher, 1 for Cirdan, 1 for Sauron, 1 for Narvi, and 1 for Amandil.

And YET, according to Form's final vote count, Elrond only got 6 votes. And then he proceeded to disqualify 4 of those for whatever reason. So out of the votes I listed above, which 5 were completely devoid of any reasoning at all? Remember, Form officially only said that complete Tolkien-based reasoning was "preferable" not "mandatory".

As to Oropher, he lost 2 votes. Yet all 5 of Oropher's votes cited the exact same reason, save perhaps lord-of-dorlomin's initial reason.

The only fair and open deductions I can see were perhaps Kuru and lord, though those are also rather debatable. This would bring the count to 6 for Elrond and 4 for Oropher. If you are to discount the votes of both Kuru and Gil-Galad, and keep Lord's vote, it still comes out to a TIE of 5 and 5 votes each, meaning both should go. If you discount Estel, you are making the rather broad assumption that even though he cited Spawn's reasoning, he didn't actually truly agree. If you discount me, you declare my reasoning invalid simply because it was not purely Tolkien, which I say ought not to be mandatory.

Anyway, I believe my case is now not only rested, but beaten brutally and thoroughly to death, and pushing up daises. RIP.

[Anguirel]

Firstly, democracy is ludicrous.

Secondly, I can't see how what has occurred is in breach of it. Formendacil warned he might adopt more stringent criteria for vote inclusion if he felt like it. He has now done so. In his position, admittedly, I would have revealed the criteria, but what's done is done and we shouldn't muck about with evictions. I speak as one who mourns the loss of the valiant, atypical King Oropher, and would have tried to prevent it had I not been enjoying a very fine supper.

Besides, as long as you include Tolkien-based rationale, you're alright. Seems simple to me.

Persecution of Elves is no longer demographically justifiable on the slightest of grounds. The Elendili hold the lead easily.

Rather than breathing new life into the Amandil campaign, (because I appreciated that defence of him earlier) I wish to examine a new candidate: Elendil himself.

Look at his overwhelming arrogance!

Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta

"Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world."

Says who? He clearly doesn't know about Elessar XIII getting turned into a frog by Alatar in the Fifth Age...

Seriously, the man's bombast and presumption is far more staggering than Ar-Pharazon's (who was merely fighting the age-old struggle against overweening Valar Nanny Statism).

What this fellow is doing is landing-as a refugee, an immigrant seeking asylum-in lands held by fellow men.

There are two ways of dealing with being an immigrant.

The Parsee way (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsi), where you put yourself at the disposal of the local government and form a useful part of the existing community.

And the American Colonists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_colonists) way, where you declare the land yours and cripple the existing cultures.

Elendil, as his words show, clearly employed the second. Because of some notional Eru-given right, he drove out the indiginous "Twilight Men", ancestors of the Rohirrim, Dunlendings et al., forcing them to submit to vassalage under him or Sauron. Do not forget that many of these were Edain, just Edain who'd chosen to resist the Valar-coddling enterprise of Numenor! And all were Men! He should have respected their existing rights.

You damned Gil-Galad for far less (for no reason at all, as far as I can gather) when his tribe was in no especial dominating position.

But these Elendili are now running the show.

These genocidal interlopers must be stopped.

Alliance, League, whatever, just vote

++ELENDIL

[Diamond18]

Firstly, democracy is ludicrous.

Then why are you playing a game where a democratic vote decides who goes? Because that is what the game of Survivor is. Nowhere in the initial post did Form detail any of this stuff about to-count-or-not-to-count, it was of course only when phantom challenged someone's vote (Elu's, to be precise) that the first set of guidelines was stated, and the moderator hasn't even followed those.

Secondly, I can't see how what has occurred is in breach of it. Formendacil warned he might adopt more stringent criteria for vote inclusion if he felt like it.

Well if you'll read the post, and read my above post, you'll see that his warnings and actions haven't matched up. Besides, doing something if "he feels like it" means that only he ever actually knows exactly how the game is being played. Which does indeed makes him all powerful, and power corrupts.

Besides, as long as you include Tolkien-based rationale, you're alright. Seems simple to me.

And again, I'll say that pure-Tolkien-based rationale belongs in The Books, not a Mirth game based on a TV Game that in its very nature requires something more complicated, especially when this "only Tolkien all the time" attitude has been a new development over the course of the game and has not always been followed. Khamul. Camel.

Alliance, League, whatever, just vote

I shall wait to see what the morrow brings.

[littlemanpoet]

++ Celeborn

He didn't deserve his wife. He was complacent, calling himself lord while letting her rule. Not that letting her rule was the problem, she was better at it anyway. Calling himself lord is what's the sham, if we're going to talk about shams. Celebrimbor was the better Elf.

[Firefoot]

As to Oropher, he lost 2 votes. Yet all 5 of Oropher's votes cited the exact same reason, save perhaps lord-of-dorlomin's initial reason. This is the part that confused me the most. I completely fail to see where any line can be drawn through the votes that were made for Oropher. So even though I did vote for Oropher, I see no logicality and fairness to the way the votes were counted. The reasoning behind the votes for Oropher were hardly better than those for Elrond, so why were so many more of the Elrond votes discounted? I think if Formen is going to be selective, he needs to be objective...

[The Saucepan Man]

This is becoming more and more like a real Reality Show as time wears on, what with accusations now being made that the game is being rigged by the producer ...

But I rather agree with Diamond18. At least when Ang rigged his game, he gave justifiable, credible and ejoyable reasoning. Here, unlike in Ang's game, we just don't know where we stand. Apparently, it's OK to vote for someone because their name sounds like a desert-based beast of burden, but not because one perceives personality-faults in a contestant, real or imagined.

To be honest, this contest has become somewhat pointless because those voting have no real control over it. So I am inclined to withdraw my labour, and recommend (not order, note, a phantom ;) ) that my fellow Alliance members do the same. That may suit the purposes of some, but it will most certainly remove a lot of the fun and intrigue (and audience figures will plummet).

At the very least, the moderator should give firm criteria on the basis of which the votes will or will not be counted, commit to end the day at approximately the same time, and give a full explanation as to which votes were not counted yesterday and why they were not counted. I would also agree with Diamond's suggestion that either Khamul be reinstated and Celeborn evicted or Oropher be reinstated and Elrond evicted.

[Lalaith]

I may be misremembering, but I've got a feeling that Ang didn't actually discount votes, didn't he just evict people in addition to those voted out by the players?

Anyway, I don't want to put backs up, or make anyone feel like they've been painted into a corner, by issuing threats and ultimatums....
....but at the same time, this game had become a lot of fun on a lot of levels....advocacy, persuasion, diplomacy, deal-making and negotiation, bluff and double-bluff - and now it just isn't anywhere near as much fun, because to in order to play at such a level we need basic gaming parameters, eg having a rough idea about when days are going to end, and just what people have to say and do to get their votes counted.

So if it isn't going to be fun, there doesn't seem much point....

[Anguirel]

And in the midst of the controversy, my Case Against Elendil, work of a morning's diligent ranting, gets no love?

Honestly. This mass-boycotting is uncalled for...

I would suggest that Formendacil lay down his rules and reveal his criteria clearly, since you're all being so stuffy about this; but I don't see any need for throwing out or dragging in candidates. It'll send us scrabbling over old material.

On the other hand, if there must be a choice due to you all being revolting peasants, Elrond not Celeborn must go, Oropher not Khamul return. If we're going to revise one candidate by stringent-mode, we'll have to revise all the other non-stringent votes-completely warping the game as it has enjoyably proceeded so far.

For myself, I continue to regard this game and Formendacil's modding as the most enjoyable Survivor so far.

[Diamond18]

And in the midst of the controversy, my Case Against Elendil, work of a morning's diligent ranting, gets no love?

Depending on what happens with the Elrond/Oropher matter, I assure you I will look over the whole Elendil argument again (apparently looking backing over old posts ad nauseum is "my thing") -- though seeing as I have a soft spot for Amandil and his broken remains gathering barnacles at the bottom of the ocean that may bias me for Elendil. Or not.

On the other hand, if there must be a choice due to you all being revolting peasants, Elrond not Celeborn must go, Oropher not Khamul return. If we're going to revise one candidate by stringent-mode, we'll have to revise all the other non-stringent votes-completely warping the game as it has enjoyably proceeded so far.

I would tend to agree with that. I'm more in favor of letting camel reasonings stand, even if I wouldn't have voted that way myself.

At any rate, I have long RPG posts that need writing and a Werewolf game that may or may not be starting soon, so I go now to expend my energy elsewhere.

[Celuien]

Right now I think that old decisions should stand, Formendacil having the right as Mod to decide how he wants to tally votes. But for future reference, I also think it would be better to have set rules about what is counted and what isn't.

And back to the voting...

The Elendili are currently the strongest tribe and in need of thinning to keep balance. I'll go with Ang's argument that Elendil's hubris is beyond excuse.

Besides that, shouldn't he have done a little better job teaching Isildur to avoid things like shiny rings forged by Dark Lords? Would have saved Middle-earth tons of trouble if he did.

++ELENDIL

[Formendacil]

And just what is all this ruckus about?

Okay, I know what all this ruckus is about...

It seems to me that there's a certain "poor loser's syndrome" going on. Well, I can sympathise... For what it's worth, I'd just as soon have saved Gil-galad rather than Elrond, but I didn't.

Okay, my criteria being in the dark is bit mysterious, and I can understand the criticism there. Very well, in the future if I stick to the Tolkien-based voting system, I'll analyse each and every vote in the open. The only reason I was keeping it in the dark was to avoid offending people's sensibilities as to whether or not I was being partial and counting votes to please myself.

So, if there are offended feelings in the future because I don't think your votes are reasoned, then I apologise in advance, but you brought it on yourselves.

However, I am not reinstating Khamûl, nor I am reinstating Oropher. If I reinstate anyone, it'll be Gil-galad, because I feel like indulging Lhuna.

But, since I'm as impartial a mod as I can be, I'm not doing that, so nobody is being reinstated.

Now, as regards the Day End/Start times, I refer you to this quote from my thread-opening post:

The days will be more or less regular in duration, but due to the irregularities that are a working bum's life, the exact duration of the day will not be herein specified, so as to allow me the chance to open/close the days as I please, and to allow for a greater air of uncertainty (no holding votes back to the deadline, guys).

To restate this:

All days will be as close to 24 hours in duration as I can manage. An hour or two off is quite possible. If 24 hours isn't possible, then I'll let it go on longer, and end it when I see fit.

I have a rather irregular work schedule, guys. Last week I was opening the store, so I worked 10:00 am to 6:00ish pm. I also close the store, meaning I work 5:00ish pm to 12:30ish am.

I also sleep.

Therefore, a regular schedule cannot be expected.

And, to be perfectly honest, I like the idea of relatively random deadlines. If you don't know to the half hour when I'm going to stop the game, then you may have to vote NOW- a fact that kind of even things up for people like Nilp or Lhuna who can't vote near the deadline many days because of the timezone difference.

So, the days will remain as they are: irregular. At least they're more regular than Glirdan managed in his game.

~Michael A. Joosten - Survivor: The Second Age Moderator~

[The Saucepan Man]

For myself, I continue to regard this game and Formendacil's modding as the most enjoyable Survivor so far.As had I, before today.

It seems to me that there's a certain "poor loser's syndrome" going on.Frankly, I believe that such an approach would be entirely justified on the basis that the "losers" "lost" not because they were outplayed by their competitors, but because the cards were stacked against them.

Although "disillusioned players" is a more apposite term than "poor losers".

For what it's worth, I'd just as soon have saved Gil-galad rather than Elrond, but I didn't.Oh well that's OK then. Since you were so gracious as to not rig one vote, we should overlook you rigging this one. :rolleyes:

I can understand your points about the deadline. The uncertain deadline actually made the game more interesting, as it was always a risk whether to put in a "safe" vote or wait and risk missing the deadline. But, plotting and scheming takes up a fair bit of time and it is rather galling to see that all go to waste on the moderator's whim. Indeed, it makes one wonder whether it is worth the effort.

And since, unfortunately, it looks like the game is likely to continue in the same vein, then I can see little point in continuing. There just ain't no fun in it any more.

So, the Alliance of Ultra-DOOM is hereby formally dissolved (for now, at least). Do with the remaining contestants as you wish.

[Diamond18]

And just what is all this ruckus about?

Okay, I know what all this ruckus is about...

It seems to me that there's a certain "poor loser's syndrome" going on. Well, I can sympathise... For what it's worth, I'd just as soon have saved Gil-galad rather than Elrond, but I didn't.

I can't say that I am at all in agreement with that rather loaded assessment of my motives. I can and do accept loses when I believe them to be fair ones. So, since you have disregarded my points about the vote tally as irrelevant and emotional, and didn't even deign to explain why you miscounted the votes to begin with (giving Elrond 6 before deductions when he had 7) then I really don't feel in the mood to play anymore. The game should be fun, it stopped being that for me. Therefore I won't stick around, since you might find me rather bitter and no one needs a bad mood hanging about casting a pall. I hope those who continue to play enjoy the remainder of the game.

[the phantom]

The amount of whining that I see makes it quite clear that you guys are really really taking this game seriously. Curious, seeing as you are quick to point out that this is the "Mirth" forum.

You all should be goofing around and being over-dramatic like me. It's more fun than being a stick in the mud.

As far as the complaining about the way the votes were counted, allow me to demonstrate the way I would've counted the votes for Elrond and Oropher.

Now don't try to argue with me about any of my judgments. Don't tell me "Well, I wouldn't have counted it that way!" That doesn't matter.

I'm just trying to show you the thought process that could lead to the results we got. In other words, showing that Formy probably had certain things in mind for counting votes and didn't just decide to count some and not others on a whim.

morm votes for Elrond:
Agent Elrond must go. He's not that wise yet, he's not funny, he's has limited personality. He's just not working out and it's time to let you go.
As you can see, morm said nothing that is justifiable within Tolkien's literature and didn't even attempt to justify it.

- - NO VOTE

Spawn votes for Elrond:
Her argument was that Elrond's refuge, Rivendell, only thrived because of Vilya. Now, why this is a reason to cast out Elrond I don't know (and I fought her quite nicely with quotes, I think :) ), but I imagine her vote got counted because she at least used some Encyclopedia of Arda quotes. Then again, the Encyclopedia of Arda online wasn't written by Tolkien, so it's not a guarantee. ;)

+ + PROBABLY A VOTE FOR ELROND

Diamond18 votes for Elrond:
She voted for Elrond because she thought I was being mean. So quite obviously-

- - NO VOTE

(btw, I wasn't being mean to anyone, Diamond, I was simply being overly fanatic for the purpose of entertainment, people who've seen me in werewolf games are very familiar with my "hysterical phantom routine", as I believe Kuru called it, and generally find it amusing- I'm sure Spawn knows good and well that I don't honestly think she is stupid :rolleyes: )

Eonwe votes for Oropher:
Firstly, who is the guy? What are his qualifications? Any cool thing he's done?
This vote counts. Why? Because Eonwe is clearly demonstrating a very Tolkien based argument for Oropher's eviction- Oropher was not mentioned much in Tolkien's books.

Had Elrond been running up against someone other than Oropher, he probably would've been voted off, but Oropher is extremely easy to cast a Tolkien-based vote for by virtue of the simple fact that Tolkien didn't say much about him.

This is why it was so easy to include the Oropher votes in the final tally. At least that is my theory. Please do your best to understand this.

+ + VOTE FOR OROPHER

TORE votes for Elrond:
Is where I'm leaning at the moment...there are good points for & against him of course & I might change my mind but at the moment I'm leaning towards Spawn's course of action
Do you see any reason given for why Elrond should be gone? Didn't think so.

- - NO VOTE

Celuien votes for Oropher:
First, she quotes Eonwe-
Firstly, who is the guy? What are his qualifications? Any cool thing he's done?
And then she answers-
Can't think of a thing. How dull...

+ +Oropher

For contributing little, if anything, to the history of Middle-earth.
This vote counts the same way Eonwe's does.

+ + VOTE FOR OROPHER

Elu Ancalime votes for Elrond:
I swear he's a sissy.
Hmm... For some reason I don't think Formy counted this one.

- - NO VOTE

Kuru votes for Elrond:
He at least points out something from Middle-Earth- the fact that Elrond was the herald of Gil-galad. However, the conclusion that he draws from this is that Elrond "didn't do a thing" in the battle. He certainly doesn't give anything to support that, but perhaps his vote gets counted because he gave exact information from Tolkien's book (that Elrond was Gil's herald)?

+ + PROBABLY A VOTE FOR ELROND

Gil votes for Elrond:
I expect your vote for Anarion in the future Kuru
I don't think that qualifies.

- - NO VOTE

the phantom votes for Oropher:
There's a reason a lot of people don't know the name Oropher where as everyone knows Elrond. Oropher isn't worthy of recognition, and thus is unworthy of staying in this game.
Here I am, using the same line of thinking as Eonwe and Celuien. I am using the fact that Tolkien did not write much about Oropher to prove that he was not a character worthy of standing among the greats. If he was as great as Elrond, Tolkien would've written more about him.

Not only that, but Formy might've been persuaded to count my vote simply because of my many quality Tolkien based defenses of Elrond. I was obviously trying as hard as anyone to keep the game Tolkien based, so it makes sense to count my vote.

+ + VOTE FOR OROPHER

lord votes for Oropher:
I haven't seen any decent defensible textual reason why Elrond should leave right now, particularly before Oropher, who most of you probably had to look up to find out about.

I agree with those before me that there is a reason Oropher is not well known- he didn't do anything worthy of keeping him alive in this game.
Once again, we see the argument that Oropher is an obscure character within the legendarium and thus does not belong with the big names.

+ + VOTE FOR OROPHER

Firefoot votes for Oropher:
He's pretty much useless, and Elrond deserves to stick around to the end more than he does. I don't know that Elrond should win, but Oropher definitely should not.
Firefoot calls Oropher "useless", which is likely referencing his lack of deeds and general no-name status, but since it isn't clear I won't count this vote.

- - NO VOTE

And so the final tally is...
Elrond: 2
Oropoher: 4

There! Now that you have seen a vote count demonstrated, perhaps that will put an end to these charges of vote "rigging".

For those of you with this attitude- "My person didn't win so I'm not playing any more"...

You need to smack yourself on the head and tell yourself "It's just a game."

Then you need to smack yourself again, and tell yourself "As Phantom demonstrated, I suppose it is actually possible that Form's final vote tally is somewhat justifiable."

After that, smack yourself once again and say "To be safe I'm going to come up with real reasons to vote for characters from now on." (I know I'm going to be trying harder just in case)

And, no doubt, a few of you think I'm only saying all this because my candidate didn't get voted off. If that's what you think- whatever.

[The Saucepan Man]

... this is the "Mirth" forum.Precisely.

For those of you with this attitude- "My person didn't win so I'm not playing any more"...To quote you:

If that's what you think- whatever. :rolleyes:

[Elu Ancalime]

Not to critisize Formendacil, but one of the great things (and at the same time stupid, dont forget) about democracy is that, in a republic, [ok just for example the USA :rolleyes: ] a voter can vote for anyone without any restriction, even Bubba who runs the gas station. So technically i should be able to say ++Elu with nothing else and it stands. But hey, its Formen's game, so w/e....its logical, but something in stone beforehand might have been..helpful.

I think Formy is really tring to make this game 'correct,' but a degree of 'fun' might be lost. It is Mirth, and it is fun to make cases like Elronds a sissy and we dont want sissys, but that comes down to what Kuru and Phantom said days ago: Charactars vs. vendettas, and theres a balence to be found, because like I said, if its ONLY charactars, Isildur, Elendil or Sauron should win by default, or only
vendettas, DOOM could carry Joe the Hobbit to victory 'just because.'

Then you need to smack yourself again, and tell yourself "As Phantom demonstrated, I suppose it is actually possible that Form's final vote tally is somewhat justifiable."
I agree with you there; I was annoyed for about 2 seconds when I saw Formy went Florida Style, but whatever. I will still do my best to be as irrationally logical as possible, and cause phantom to shake his head at me. :p

So, Elu Ancalime, if you keep your vote for Elrond you are an absolutely huge hypocrite.

But now I disagree; I wasnt saying Elrond wasnt, my vote was to defend Oropher and Cirdan. Elrond was warm and nice to those that he met met and knew, but Oropher risked his luxeries to send a missionary to educate the Silvan/Avari.
________
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[lord of dor-lomin]

I say we get rid of Treebeard. He didn't do anything of note in the Second Age.

I think the ents might be better off without him. Maybe a younger, more "hasty" ent would take charge, like Quickbeam.

+ + Treebeard

[the phantom]

Ooo, Eomer isn't going to like this, but I simply must, since I've been given an easy opportunity to bump him off.

+ + Fangorn (Treebeard)

I hate people who take to long to get to the point, and so I am very much anti-ent to begin with. And then consider, how much good do ents really do? Except for once every few thousand years they don't do anything of value. And they aren't even decent enough chaps to travel with their wives, but instead they just let them wander off to meet their fate alone.

[Formendacil]

Due to a certain lack of voting for characters in the game, the Day's deadline will be postponed to something in the neighbourhood of 24 hours.

Now, to restate certain things that have been overlooked:

1. I have admitted that I was probably wrong to hide my Tolkien-based criteria for voting, and to just present the tallies.

Evidence:

Okay, my criteria being in the dark is bit mysterious, and I can understand the criticism there. Very well, in the future if I stick to the Tolkien-based voting system, I'll analyse each and every vote in the open.

2. In the future, if I choose to continue to follow the Tolkien-based route, I shall make each and every vote's significance within this system open and public.

Evidence: see last quote.

3. My original reason for keeping the criteria secret was not to rig the game, but to avoid offending anyone who's vote might not have been counted- and to keep game discussion on which characters should have been voted off, NOT on whether or not I was correct in allowing/disallowing certain votes. My decision here may have been wrong, if so, I have already admitted that- and said I will change.

Evidence:

The only reason I was keeping it in the dark was to avoid offending people's sensibilities as to whether or not I was being partial and counting votes to please myself.

So, if there are offended feelings in the future because I don't think your votes are reasoned, then I apologise in advance, but you brought it on yourselves.

4. Tolkien-based criteria.

Okay, this is a bit of a new topic, and the points I'm going to make haven't been made specifically by me.

To begin, the requirement to have a rationale for one's votes is not an idea that I came up with. This goes back to Anguirel's game, and was an official rule of Glirdan's. It was also a rule that I was not initially fond of, during those games- possibly because their enforcement of it was inconsistent. However, keeping in mind that this IS a Tolkien forum, and keeping in mind the idea that posts with some meat to them make for a better argument (and thus Survivor thread) than simple ++ My Candidate posts, I began to reconsider my opinions on it over the course of the games.

When I started my own game, I did not originally see a need to include the rule. I assumed that, more-or-less, most voters would include SOME rationale in their voting- and, if the rationale was to be rational, I assumed that it would Tolkien-related.

On about Day 3 (and research back on this thread will clear up exactly when it was), one of the voters from a previous game, possibly Anguirel (though I don't wish to name names in case I'm wrong), was irked at a lack of apparent reason behind someone's vote, and the issue came up in my mind.

That night/day, tallying up the votes, I too was irked at the apparent lack of reason behind some of the votes- and as the two "Tolkien-based" tallyings I have done thus far will show, quite a few votes are easily discounted on this point.

Although I held to the majority decision (a majority decision that I seem to recall disliking for some reason), I did post that I would be possibly changing the rules to require a Tolkien rationale for the votes.

The way I initially did this was done in such a way that I wasn't GUARANTEEING that I would only count Tolkien-based votes- but I might, so you'd better include a reason to be safe. My intention, at that time, was not to force you all to do more work, but to try and stimulate you all by non-forceful means into livening up debate.

However, as the voting progressed over the following days, the overall percentage of "unreasoned" votes didn't really change, and it possibly got worse. A few players asked me (SPM right here on the game thread), if I could be expected to start discounting votes. I replied "No" in all cases, but continued to mention it as a possibility for the future, not necessarily to be acted on.

Well, yesterday I acted on it. I gave plenty of warning, and I don't regret that I did.

Now, I do most sincerely and heartily regret the whole kaffuffle that it has caused. I apologise for keeping my decisions on which votes are eligible secret- clearly, I did not think it through as completely as I ought to have. I will admit to being quite pleased that it was Oropher that got the noose, and not Elrond, but I completely and absolutely deny the charges that I rigged the result. I tallied each vote that had a Tolkien rationale (in my human opinion, mind you). It was still your votes that I counted- and if the anti-Oropher camp had the majority in the keep-Tolkien-a-part-of-it spirit voting scheme that I had set up, then it was their majority that won the votes.

Two more Tolkien-reasoned (even if rather warped, distorted, or parodied in its logic) and Elrond would be gone, and not Oropher.

Again, I truly detest this whole situation that has come up. I regret that my actions made it so. But what has happened, has happened, and as Anguirel has pointed out, reversing my actions will only make things worse. If you want to "remedy" things, then I recommend that you all vote for Elrond today- and use something Tolkien wrote to back you up.

~Michael A. Joosten - Survivor: The Second Age Moderator~

P.S. To everybody who has supported me, misguided or not, my thanks. To know that I haven't made completely irrational, stupid, and egotistic decisions is appreciated.

[lord of dor-lomin]

Well, Phantom, the mod has just extended the voting time, so we failed in our last second attempt to take out Treebeard.

Rats.

[Lhunardawen]

If I reinstate anyone, it'll be Gil-galad, because I feel like indulging Lhuna.I like you, too! :D


And, to be perfectly honest, I like the idea of relatively random deadlines. If you don't know to the half hour when I'm going to stop the game, then you may have to vote NOW- a fact that kind of even things up for people like Nilp or Lhuna who can't vote near the deadline many days because of the timezone difference....You mean there's a deadline? I had NO idea...

Anyways, I still suggest that you do as the wise littlepoetman did and vote Celeborn.

[Anguirel]

++ Celeborn

He didn't deserve his wife. He was complacent, calling himself lord while letting her rule.

Has it occurred to you that we don't know the names of most of the wives of "great lords"? Elendil's wife, for example, is a complete mystery.

The fact that we have more material on Galadriel is a sign that Celeborn was indeed a loving and appreciative husband.

Unlike the bigoted murdering culture-crushing hubristic Elendil. His wife was just his chattel...

[Lalaith]

I think it's all got a bit grumpy for me. Sorry.

But here's a parting gift for Anguirel,

++ELENDIL

Reasons:
a. Too many Elendili
b. He got the Faithful out of Numenor, he'd done his bit. Why put him through the rigours of Survivor as well?
c. Ang's right. WHY don't we know his wife's name? Kept barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen, was she, when the census taker came to call? For shame.

[The Saucepan Man]

At the risk of flogging a dead Khamul, let me try to explain further the reasoning that has led me to the position in which I now, reluctantly, find myself. Hopefully, this will enlighten those knuckle-headed types who refuse to accept any position which does not neatly conform to their own world-view (mentioning no names ;) ), although I don’t hold out much hope on that score.

The problem is that, even with Formendacil’s explanation, we are still left with no clear understanding of the basis upon which votes will be counted or discounted. He has not explained which votes from yesterday were discounted and which were not. Even had he done so, the position would be far from clear.

To take a phantom’s ever so unbiased ( ;) ) analysis as an example, I fail to see why votes for Elrond because of perceived character flaws (mormegil’s and Elu Ancalime’s, for example) should be discounted. Those personality flaws are necessarily Tolkien-based because they are based upon the voter’s perception of a character invented by Tolkien, albeit a perception undoubtedly (and, in my view, legitimately) skewed for game/humour purposes. They could, I suppose, have said something like “based on his behaviour in Middle-earth, he comes across to me as a sissy”, but what is the point of that? The first part of that sentence is surely implied by the context. Calling a vote into question simply because no specific reference is made to Tolkien or Middle-earth necessarily requires a value judgment to be made by the mod (as to whether he agrees with the reasons given by the voter). That is unacceptable as it brings the mod’s partiality into question and leads to far too much uncertainty.

If these votes are to be discounted, then why not also discount the votes for Oropher which simply relied on the fact that he is not mentioned by Tolkien much and so, by implication, did not do much? There is hardly any more intelligent reasoning involved. I can think of better reasons to give for evicting Oropher, such as that his rash charge in the War of the Last Alliance imperilled his side’s victory and got a lot of his people unnecessarily slain. So, if the votes of morm and Elu are to be discounted, then all of the votes for Oropher should also be discounted, leading to Elrond’s eviction.

But I would count all of those votes. On that basis, the only votes for Elrond which might arguably be discounted are those which were cast by Diamond and Gil-Galad as they did not relate to the character in question but to game events. That would leave Elrond and Oropher on five votes each and lead to a double eviction. Possibly a fair result.

Or one might take a different approach. A phantom discounts TORE’s vote because it refers back to spawn’s reasoning. On that basis, the votes of Celuien and (particularly) lord of dor-lomin would also need to be discounted, leaving Elrond with four votes and Oropher with three, resulting in Elrond’s eviction.

You see the problem? Even with a vague indication that only Tolkien-based votes will count, the game is still riddled with grey areas. Too much scope for mod partiality and too little certainty to make the game enjoyable. As I have said, the way that this game has been played involves a fair bit of effort and it all seems rather pointless when that effort comes to nothing on the whim of the mod.

Formendacil, you have said that you have not been rigging the votes. I fully accept that you did not act in bad faith. Nevertheless, the fact that you chose to count the votes for Khamul, even though this issue was raised (by me) during that day of voting, but discount certain votes for Elrond does not give me any comfort in this regard. Even though you may not have consciously have rigged it and thought that you were acting fairly, it is clear to me that there was a degree of partiality involved in the manner in which you exercised your discretion.

In past games, the rule, I believe, has been, not that Tolkien-based reasoning was required, but that reasoning of some kind at least was required. In other words, votes for a character without more were not allowed. That works well, because it forces people to give some sort of reasoning (and therefore provokes discussion), but does not require value judgments on the part of the mod. In other words, it avoids the grey areas that my analysis above has highlighted and is easily enforceable in a non-partial way. Applying that rule, all of the votes yesterday, for both Elrond and Oropher, should have counted.

I don’t expect any response to this, nor any concessions. I just wished to make my position crystal clear before politely withdrawing from the game.

It was fun while it lasted.

And for old time's sake, I shall contribute towards Lalaith's parting gift, adopting wholesale her immaculate reasoning (if that's allowed :rolleyes: ).

+ + ELENDIL

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Phantom and Lord, you weirdos. :p

Ents take too long to get to the point, eh? Did it ever occur to you that Ents live far longer than you do? 'Hasty' and 'Takes too long' are both relative descriptions. Considering how sweet and wonderful Treebeard was to Merry and Pippin even though they were on the opposite end of the scale, I think it's downright nasty and despicable to hate the poor Ent based on that.

He could just as easily hate you for being unlike him but he's not like that. He's nice.

As for not doing anything of value, was it not Johnny T. himself who said that it would be better if more of us valued the simple things in life. Just because Treebeard wasn't always going around picking fights in some foreign land you want to kick him out? He just wanted to take it easy!

Plus, with the exception of Sauron, Treebeard could defeat anyone in that list in a fight – including your precious Elrond and Isildur.

Treebeard is awesome. Case closed.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

+ + Treebeard

If you leave him in some movie maker
will make him out to be a doofus easily
tricked by a couple of immature hobbitses.

[Thinlómien]

Ang has convinced me.

++Elendil

Plus, I've never been an Elendil-fan.

[the phantom]

Ang, there is something in your Elendil argument I don't agree with.
"Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world."
You think this Elendil quote was a display of arrogance. It wasn't- it was foresight. There's a big difference.

And then this-
The fact that we have more material on Galadriel is a sign that Celeborn was indeed a loving and appreciative husband.
Either that, or perhaps Celeborn took great pleasure in displaying his trophy-wife at every opportunity, where as Elendil had enough respect for his wife to allow her to live her life as she wished and didn't insist on showing her off. Did you think of that? :p

Now, that said, I do believe the Elendili tribe should be trimmed soon, so a vote for Elendil isn't the worst thing in the world, though I'd rather vote off Anarion than Elendil.

But the person I'd really like to take care of is Treebeard, so I will now respond to Eomer's defense of the stiff, inactive old bore.
'Hasty' and 'Takes too long' are both relative descriptions.
Yes, relative to me, and you should know by now that I care about how things relate to me far more than how they relate to anything else. :p
Considering how sweet and wonderful Treebeard was...
He's nice.
WHAT?!

Take your time reading the line below, Eomer. Let it sink in.

Treebeard....was...not....nice.

This is what Treebeard said to Merry and Pippin in the chapter entitled "Treebeard"-
But if I had seen you, before I heard your voices- I liked them: nice little voices; they reminded me of something I cannot remember- if I had seen you before I heard you, I should have just trodden on you, taking you for little Orcs, and found out my mistake afterwards.
The only reason Treebeard didn't squash Merry and Pippin immediately was that he thought their voices were cute. That doesn't sound very nice to me.

Treebeard needs to go.

And now, to respond briefly to Sauce.
He has not explained which votes from yesterday were discounted and which were not.
I explained though. Can't you infer from my explanation what probably happened?
I fail to see why votes for Elrond because of perceived character flaws (mormegil’s and Elu Ancalime’s, for example) should be discounted.
Oh, come on, you're just being stubborn. "Elrond is a sissy" is obviously not a legitimate argument. No where in Tolkien's books does Tolkien hint at Elrond being a sissy. On the contrary, Tolkien describes him as strong. If Formendacil accepted a vote that said "Elrond is a sissy", he would have to accept a vote for Sauron that said "Sauron is a messy eater".

When making a vote, you can't just claim personality flaws without a reason, particularly flaws that are completely absent from Tolkien's writings. That is extremely easy to understand, SPM, so don't even try and wiggle around and pretend that you don't get why morm and Elu's votes were likely not counted. I'm sure the two of them understand completely.

The people who voted for Oropher put their finger cleary on the fact that not much was written about Oropher. The people who called Elrond a sissy or unwise or whatever weren't putting their finger clearly on anything at all. If you don't understand this then you are conciously trying not to.
the phantom discounts TORE’s vote because it refers back to spawn’s reasoning. On that basis, the votes of Celuien and (particularly) lord of dor-lomin would also need to be discounted
Nope. False.

TORE did not quote Spawn's reasoning, nor did he attempt to put the reasoning into his own words. All he said was that he was leaning towards her reasoning.

Celuien and lord, on the other hand, both gave reasoning in their own words. That is an important difference. When you are at school, do teachers allow you to answer a question "I think the same thing as John does"? No, they expect you to give the answer in your own words, even if your reasoning is the same as John's.

That is the situation here. Don't even try and argue it. It mirrors what is considered an acceptable practice elsewhere, so rather than complain or fight it just live with it.

[Elu Ancalime]

Lommy........<sigh> (I like Elendil)

++Treebeard

He really didnt do anything, and besides, he could've prevented the attack on the Entwives. If the Ents checked up the Wives more regularly, maybe the Wives would have stayed West of the ANduin, and Sauron might have left them alone.

SpM, you do have a point about character flaws. This may invalidate my own vote for Elrond, but to an extemt you are right. It is Tolkien-based if one makes a vote based on an assumption from character. However....I regret to say I can not find any direct proof that Elrond is a sissy. That is my perception of him (in a Mirthful way) But then there would be exact specifications on what can and can not be assumed, if assumption is allowed. But then a character like Oropher would be gone, only because 'he never did anything.' So, putting it in that perspective, I would then theoretically totally support Elrond, and campaign against 'idles', but then if that was true, Formendacil, or any other Survivor Mod should not have put Idles in to maintain that.
Oh, come on, you're just being stubborn. "Elrond is a sissy" is obviously not a legitimate argument. No where in Tolkien's books does Tolkien hint at Elrond being a sissy. On the contrary, Tolkien describes him as strong. If Formendacil accepted a vote that said "Elrond is a sissy", he would have to accept a vote for Sauron that said "Sauron is a messy eater".

But see, assuming Formendacil is a government and not one person, a vote like that should be accepted regardless because most ballots anywhere dont have three lines after where you write why. If that was true, then the democratic world would have the best leaders. My dad once made a joke that he couldnt vote for Al Gore in '00, because:"Joe Lieberman looks funny"
Now he didnt do that, but nobody cares about that, because in popular vote, the idea is that the people can vote for any candidate. Debates and speeches are for the people, so that they can think why they would consider this candidate. The reasoning is for the person, not the people. As a person, they have justification to vote for somebody and not have to tell anybody else who they voted for or why, because they wouldnt vote unless they had a reason, no matter how silly. Even the fact that most people only see one side of an issue, if they are completely ignorant to the fact, they are allowed to vote. That is an example that nobodys perfect.

Also, this was posted in Formendacil's opening post and other past Survivor Mod posts. Obviously this is Formen's game, but just a general idea of Survivor. Survivor Sillmarillion was a little bit different as it including reasoning on challenges, so i dont think its liable in this instance.=Formy The person will be evicted from the game by the voting of YOU the readersI assume this implies personal justification, which is eprsonal. :eek: =Glirdan2) You have to come up with a funny excuse for you reason to vote that person out. It can be an inside joke or something that everyone will get. It doesn't matter as long as it's comedic.3) Lastly (and most importantly I might add), HAVE FUN!!!!!
This is a little critisism for Formen, but Boromir88 who created survivor on the Downs said this.Please list votes like so ++Frodo, and it would be funner if you give an explanation as to why. By all means, this is Middle-earth Mirth, think of something totally whacky.

Since this is Mirth, I think the silly and absurd reasoning should be allowed to a healthy point. I really did not expect a bandwagon to start about how sissy somebody was. I expected a bandwagon about evicting Elrond.
________
Vt800 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Honda_VT800)

[The Saucepan Man]

Oh, come on, you're just being stubborn. "Elrond is a sissy" is obviously not a legitimate argument. No where in Tolkien's books does Tolkien hint at Elrond being a sissy.

This is, don't forget, a Tolkien-based game. So, I would like to see, if possible, some reasoning, preferably Tolkien-based, no matter how illogical or distorted, to accompany your votes. :rolleyes:

[Eonwe]

++Ohtar

If you think the Elindili need some thinning out, choose this guy. Once again, I don't know who he is. That should say it all.

Lommy, I am shocked into speachlessness. What makes you not an Elindil fan? Is there some hidden blemish to his character? Some moral deficiency?

As for this:
WHY don't we know his wife's name? Kept barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen, was she, when the census taker came to call?
I have but one thing to say. For shame.

We don't the the man's wife's name because she never did anything important enough to be mentioned. That is her business. To have it used to tarnish Elindil's good name is entirely rediculous.

I am certainly in for it. Here in the first round, I am having to throw out portest votes, and the choices of those are even pretty slim...

[Formendacil]

The problem is that, even with Formendacil’s explanation, we are still left with no clear understanding of the basis upon which votes will be counted or discounted. He has not explained which votes from yesterday were discounted and which were not. Even had he done so, the position would be far from clear.

I agree. I've admitted that keeping which votes were accepted and which ones weren't (although some can be deduced) was a mistake. It is, however, a mistake that is over and done. All the records I've kept are the ones that you see on this thread.

For that reason therefore, I am not going to go back and list all of yesterday's votes and explain which ones are acceptable, and which ones aren't- because with the eyes of everyone on me, and being in a different frame of mind, I may well count differently and I have no desire to be further accused of bias.

What's done is done.

I shall, however- AND ALL YE TAKE HEED- be counting votes today based on Tolkien-related criteria. I shall analyse each vote and give a verdict. I should have done this before, but I didn't, I apologise, and at least I am doing it now.

To take a phantom’s ever so unbiased ( ;) ) analysis as an example, I fail to see why votes for Elrond because of perceived character flaws (mormegil’s and Elu Ancalime’s, for example) should be discounted. Those personality flaws are necessarily Tolkien-based because they are based upon the voter’s perception of a character invented by Tolkien, albeit a perception undoubtedly (and, in my view, legitimately) skewed for game/humour purposes. They could, I suppose, have said something like “based on his behaviour in Middle-earth, he comes across to me as a sissy”, but what is the point of that? The first part of that sentence is surely implied by the context. Calling a vote into question simply because no specific reference is made to Tolkien or Middle-earth necessarily requires a value judgment to be made by the mod (as to whether he agrees with the reasons given by the voter). That is unacceptable as it brings the mod’s partiality into question and leads to far too much uncertainty.

The Phantom's analysis was not perfect- it was not MY analysis. However, I will say that it came close on some points...

Mod's partiality?

My dear SPM, have you completely forgotten the Silmarillion Survivor? Anguirel was partial to certain parties- very partial to certain parties.

He gave several characters a free bye into the later rounds by not introducing them till then, and (probably faulty) memory seems to recall him summarily killing off some of the characters simply because their "time had come".

If these votes are to be discounted, then why not also discount the votes for Oropher which simply relied on the fact that he is not mentioned by Tolkien much and so, by implication, did not do much? There is hardly any more intelligent reasoning involved. I can think of better reasons to give for evicting Oropher, such as that his rash charge in the War of the Last Alliance imperilled his side’s victory and got a lot of his people unnecessarily slain. So, if the votes of morm and Elu are to be discounted, then all of the votes for Oropher should also be discounted, leading to Elrond’s eviction.

But I would count all of those votes. On that basis, the only votes for Elrond which might arguably be discounted are those which were cast by Diamond and Gil-Galad as they did not relate to the character in question but to game events. That would leave Elrond and Oropher on five votes each and lead to a double eviction. Possibly a fair result.

Or one might take a different approach. A phantom discounts TORE’s vote because it refers back to spawn’s reasoning. On that basis, the votes of Celuien and (particularly) lord of dor-lomin would also need to be discounted, leaving Elrond with four votes and Oropher with three, resulting in Elrond’s eviction.

You see the problem? Even with a vague indication that only Tolkien-based votes will count, the game is still riddled with grey areas. Too much scope for mod partiality and too little certainty to make the game enjoyable. As I have said, the way that this game has been played involves a fair bit of effort and it all seems rather pointless when that effort comes to nothing on the whim of the mod.

Perhaps then, having made thorough analysis of the whole "Tolkien criteria" issue, you will see why I wanted to keep whose votes were in and whose votes were out a secret?

Formendacil, you have said that you have not been rigging the votes. I fully accept that you did not act in bad faith. Nevertheless, the fact that you chose to count the votes for Khamul, even though this issue was raised (by me) during that day of voting, but discount certain votes for Elrond does not give me any comfort in this regard. Even though you may not have consciously have rigged it and thought that you were acting fairly, it is clear to me that there was a degree of partiality involved in the manner in which you exercised your discretion.

I don't deny there was a degree of partiality- I think I have admitted to that a long time ago. I also don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

As for you raising "the issue" on the day of Khamûl's eviction, I maybe should have cracked down then on non-eligible voting. In my mind, I didn't want to be overly dictatorial: in other words, I didn't want something overblown like this to occur. My original intention in stipulating Tolkien-based rationale for votes was to discourage one-liner posts. Therefore, I didn't want to be putting the Mod's boot down on the necks of the players so eagerly. I wanted, rightly or wrongly, to wait a couple days and see if a trend towards greater post length/reasoning developed.

It didn't...

That I chose yesterDay to put my foot down was, I thought, a somewhat politically astute choice. Neither the Elrond party nor the Oropher party was winning by a landside (one vote's difference, I believe). Nor did I REALLY care to save either character, so I hoped to avoid accusations of bias. I PREFERRED Elrond, but not with the passionate drive of the Phantom.

In past games, the rule, I believe, has been, not that Tolkien-based reasoning was required, but that reasoning of some kind at least was required. In other words, votes for a character without more were not allowed. That works well, because it forces people to give some sort of reasoning (and therefore provokes discussion), but does not require value judgments on the part of the mod. In other words, it avoids the grey areas that my analysis above has highlighted and is easily enforceable in a non-partial way. Applying that rule, all of the votes yesterday, for both Elrond and Oropher, should have counted.

Alas, but perhaps I was doomed to problems in this field... When I say "Tolkien-based criteria", what I MEAN is "rational reasons", and since all of these characters come, in their entirety, from Tolkien, the word Tolkien has been used. It is perhaps not the wisest choice of words on my part, but I don't think that I've been unreasonable in expecting them to interpreted as intended. Show me where Elrond, Oropher, Khamûl, or any other is shown to us by anyone other than Tolkien (or Tolkien Jr.) and I'll gladly rescind the rule.

I don’t expect any response to this, nor any concessions. I just wished to make my position crystal clear before politely withdrawing from the game.

It was fun while it lasted.

I'm truly sorry to hear that. You have been, and I wish you could continue to be, one of the more entertaining players: you get drawn into the alliances, but you avoid getting entrenched too deep in them, as some do. You have always included a rationale for your votes. You are erudite and witty, and you have the value-adding gift to this game of inspiring grudges and revenge among those less fortunate.

If however, you feel that this game is rigged, unfair, and unjust, or that there is too much bad blood here to continue, then yes, you ought to leave. No sense in prolonging this pained situation longer...

And, regarding prolonging this pained situation, is there even a consensus that I should bother trying to keep running this game?

I don't want to step down. As Mod, I thought I had a pretty good game going. I was proud, in a parental way perhaps, of the alliances and petty grudges the players had developed. I thought I had put a pretty good cast of characters together, and that I doing a good, clean job of keeping my Moderator's Nose clean and unbiased.

I have been more than a little offended by the accusations against me, and although I don't bear any one particular 'Downer, or even a particular four or five 'Downers any ill will outside of this thread, I am irked at how large an issue this has grown into.

I remain,

~Michael A. Joosten - Survivor: The Second Age Moderator~

P.S. Analysis of votes coming up in the next post, to be followed by the official Day End. Any votes cast after this post will be counted towards tomorrow's tally.

[Formendacil]

And YET, according to Form's final vote count, Elrond only got 6 votes. And then he proceeded to disqualify 4 of those for whatever reason.

Sorry, just replying to this as I go through the thread counting votes...

Under the system of "a vote cast is a vote counted", one can skim a thread pretty quick when counting votes. It seems that I miscounted on the original tally, since I trust your accounting here to be accurate.

It's entirely possible that if you went back to Day 1, 2, 3, 4, or whatnot, you'd find a similar mistake. I'm very much human, and I probably missed someone's vote in the tallying.

My apologies. Nobody's vote was disqualified under the "a vote case is a vote counted" system.

[Formendacil]

Okay, let’s being this… starting from the top:

++CELEBORN

He's just a silver-haired shadow of his gorgeous golden-haired wife. (Telperion and Laurelin, anyone?)

Come on! You know you love him...not!

Lhuna makes a direct reference to Celeborn’s state in life: his marriage to Galadried (and then includes details of their appearance).

This vote is COUNTED.

Rather than breathing new life into the Amandil campaign, (because I appreciated that defence of him earlier) I wish to examine a new candidate: Elendil himself.

Look at his overwhelming arrogance!

Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta

"Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world."

Says who? He clearly doesn't know about Elessar XIII getting turned into a frog by Alatar in the Fifth Age...

Seriously, the man's bombast and presumption is far more staggering than Ar-Pharazon's (who was merely fighting the age-old struggle against overweening Valar Nanny Statism).

What this fellow is doing is landing-as a refugee, an immigrant seeking asylum-in lands held by fellow men.

There are two ways of dealing with being an immigrant.

The Parsee way, where you put yourself at the disposal of the local government and form a useful part of the existing community.

And the American Colonists way, where you declare the land yours and cripple the existing cultures.

Elendil, as his words show, clearly employed the second. Because of some notional Eru-given right, he drove out the indiginous "Twilight Men", ancestors of the Rohirrim, Dunlendings et al., forcing them to submit to vassalage under him or Sauron. Do not forget that many of these were Edain, just Edain who'd chosen to resist the Valar-coddling enterprise of Numenor! And all were Men! He should have respected their existing rights.

You damned Gil-Galad for far less (for no reason at all, as far as I can gather) when his tribe was in no especial dominating position.

But these Elendili are now running the show.

These genocidal interlopers must be stopped.

Alliance, League, whatever, just vote

++ELENDIL

Okay, do I even need to explain why Anguirel’s vote is going to be COUNTED? Anguriel ties his argument directly in to what Elendil did or did not do.

++ Celeborn

He didn't deserve his wife. He was complacent, calling himself lord while letting her rule. Not that letting her rule was the problem, she was better at it anyway. Calling himself lord is what's the sham, if we're going to talk about shams. Celebrimbor was the better Elf.

LMP directly references Celeborn’s history, and the apparent dominance of Galadriel in their relationship. His final line about Celebrimbor being better would probably have discounted him for me, had it been the only reason given, since “better” is a highly opinionated word to use- although one could make the case that it would still be a Tolkien-rationale. However, LMP has already given a reason I’m counting as valid.

COUNTED.

The Elendili are currently the strongest tribe and in need of thinning to keep balance. I'll go with Ang's argument that Elendil's hubris is beyond excuse.

Besides that, shouldn't he have done a little better job teaching Isildur to avoid things like shiny rings forged by Dark Lords? Would have saved Middle-earth tons of trouble if he did.

++ELENDIL

Had Celuien only posted her first line as her criteria (about the Elendili leading) this vote would have been discounted. Had we stuck with the first paragraph, it would have been dependent on Ang’s reasoning (and referring to other people’s reasoning, while not outright banned, is something I’m iffy about, though I allow it for now).

However, Celuien moves on in her second paragraph to give a firm, fine basis for a vote. She references Elendil’s relationship as to Isildur, as father, and references the events that took place in Tolkien’s world just after his death, laying the blame, right or wrong, at Elendil’s feet.

This vote is, therefore, easily COUNTED.

I say we get rid of Treebeard. He didn't do anything of note in the Second Age.

I think the ents might be better off without him. Maybe a younger, more "hasty" ent would take charge, like Quickbeam.

+ + Treebeard

Again, this vote is COUNTED, in this case because of a direct reference to the fact that Quickbeam is hastier than Treebeard- and thus a better leader. Rather sorry logic regarding hastiness/leaders in my opinion, but it’s Tolkien-based, so the vote stands.

Ooo, Eomer isn't going to like this, but I simply must, since I've been given an easy opportunity to bump him off.

+ + Fangorn (Treebeard)

I hate people who take to long to get to the point, and so I am very much anti-ent to begin with. And then consider, how much good do ents really do? Except for once every few thousand years they don't do anything of value. And they aren't even decent enough chaps to travel with their wives, but instead they just let them wander off to meet their fate alone.

If posted with only that first line, this vote of the Phantom’s would note have been counted. While ticking off other players is a noble and wise pursuit in and of itself, votes to evict candidates must be related to the candidate being voted for.

Hence, it is the second paragraph here that allows this vote to be counted. The Phantom directly refers to the unhastiness of Ents, the fact that they generally remain aloof, and their separation from the Entwives.

I must say, though, that did we not know that Treebeard was guilty of all these general Entish tendencies, I probably wouldn’t count this vote, since it isn’t directly related to Treebeard himself. However, we DO know that Treebeard was personally guilty of all these Entish faults, and so the vote is COUNTED.

++ELENDIL

Reasons:
a. Too many Elendili
b. He got the Faithful out of Numenor, he'd done his bit. Why put him through the rigours of Survivor as well?
c. Ang's right. WHY don't we know his wife's name? Kept barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen, was she, when the census taker came to call? For shame.

Again, this vote is COUNTED.

Lalaith’s first reason, too many Elendili, on its own, would discount it. What has this to do with Elendil himself? From an in-Middle-Earth perspective, the Elendili were vastly outnumbered anyway.

Her second reason is valid, since it refers to something that Elendil actually did. Although voting people off out of mercy seems a bit counter-intuitive, it’s Tolkien-based, so I’m more than willing to let it stand.

Her third reason would also be valid. Tolkien DIDN’T ever give us Mrs. Elendil’s name. Illogical speculation related thereto is a permissible rationale for voting.

And for old time's sake, I shall contribute towards Lalaith's parting gift, adopting wholesale her immaculate reasoning (if that's allowed ).

+ + ELENDIL

As with Part A of Celuien’s vote, whether or not SPM’s vote is counted depends on whether or not Lalaith’s is counted. Since Lalaith’s was counted, and since I have not discounted rationale-by-direct-reference-to-another-‘Downer’s-list proxy- despite misgivings-, this vote is also COUNTED.

+ + Treebeard

If you leave him in some movie maker will make him out to be a doofus easily tricked by a couple of immature hobbitses.

Sorry, Tuor, but yours is the first vote to be disqualified. There is no reference to anything that Treebeard actually does, or fails to do, or has happen to him- not even a connection to etymology of his name.

This vote is NOT COUNTED.

Ang has convinced me.

++Elendil

Plus, I've never been an Elendil-fan.[/b]

Much like SPM’s this vote would not be counted if I had not already counted Anguirel’s.

COUNTED, albeit a bit grudgingly.

Lommy........<sigh> (I like Elendil)

++Treebeard

He really didnt do anything, and besides, he could've prevented the attack on the Entwives. If the Ents checked up the Wives more regularly, maybe the Wives would have stayed West of the ANduin, and Sauron might have left them alone.

Again, a direct reference to Treebeard’s lack of action, as well as a reference to the Ent/Entwife issue, laying the blame (rightly or wrongly) at Treebeard’s feet.

COUNTED.

++Ohtar

If you think the Elendili need some thinning out, choose this guy. Once again, I don't know who he is. That should say it all.

With apologies to Eonwe, this vote is discounted.

The only rationale offered is that the Elendili need thinning (see my comments on Lalaith’s Reason 1 for why this is discounted) and that Eonwe doesn’t know who Ohtar is.

NOT COUNTED.



Okay, now, here we are at the end of all votes... for toDay...

The official records post will be up with these results momentarily.

[Formendacil]

The Twelth day of voting was deeply troubled by arguments amongst the voting spectators. Many disappeared in the disturbance. All Arda Envinyanta seemed stirred by the accusations of corruption. In the end, after a comprehensive vote-counting, the voting fell as follows:

Celeborn: II

Elendil: III

Fangorn (Treebeard): IIII

EDIT:

Okay, here's the reason why I shouldn't be trusted, if any reason exists...

I just switched up the positions of Elendil and Fangorn...

I even had them counted right, too.

So, the true tally is:

Celeborn: II

Fangorn: III

Elendil: IIII

Meaning that this is nonsense:

NOT EDIT: Perhaps it was a subtle revenge at the often wordy Moderator that Treebeard was evicted, perhaps it was simply a strike at Eomer of the Rohirrim. Whatever the case, Fangorn of Fangorn was out of the game.

Those remaining:

Tribe of the Noldor:
Elrond Peredhil
Galadriel
Celebrimbor

Tribe of the Sindar:
Celeborn
Círdan
Celebrían

Tribe of the Númenoreans:
Elros Tar-Minyatur
Tar-Míriel

Tribe of the Elendili:
Amandil
Anárion
Ohtar

Tribe of the Other Speakers:
Narvi
Fangorn
Fimbrethil

Tribe of the Baddies:
Sauron
The Witch-king

Day 13 may now begin. I'd like to hope that my voting-analysis will clear things up a little, and that Day 13 will see a few more votes for characters (and really, having seen what you need to do, is it all THAT hard?) than today. 'Tis is truly ignominious way for Elendil to go, with four votes out of nine...

P.S. Thanks to the Phantom for pointing out my counting error.

[Diamond18]

I will give things another try, since I am already having plus plus withdrawals. Provided you continue to give reasons for any future disqualifications I think that gives me at least something to measure off of. Of course, once the werewolf game finally starts I may be gone anyway, screaming "Don't kill me!" hysterically and unable to concentrate on anything else.

Anyway, on to it. If I haven't rambled too long, I may just be getting in the first vote of the day.

In my mind, and this may sound strange but it is true, the most damning thing Elendil ever did was name his sword Narsil. Of course, technically Tolkien only says, "...and it was named Narsil" but we can safely assume that Elendil, being the first owner of said sword, would have been the one to christen it. Narsil is, forgive me, the most butt-ugly name in all of Tolkiendom. It sounds like the bastard love child of an air freshener and a hair removal product. Thank goodness Aragorn had the sense to rename it. Wouldn't you rather weild Andúril? I know you would.

I'll get you, my pretty,

+ + Elendil,

and your little sword too!

[Diamond18]

Celeborn: II

Fangorn: III

Treebeard: IIII

Well, now I'm just confused....

[the phantom]

Well, now I'm just confused....
Heh.

I think we should just assume that Elendil is dead, because the post in which Lord Formendacil counts everyone's votes shows Elendil with the most counted votes.

Unless there was an error in that post.

[Diamond18]

So I voted for a dead guy? I've spoken ill of the dead? I've stomped all over Elendil's grave, adding insult to mortal injury? I am SO bad. :p

[Formendacil]

Good grief!

I am far too tired to be up at this late hour... look at the silly mistakes I've been making.

I'll fix it...

[The Saucepan Man]

OK, I have decided to continue playing, primarily for three reasons.

First, the basis upon which votes are to be counted and discounted is now abundantly clear.

Secondly, I cannot resist a bit of flattery. :D

And thirdly, while I still have misgivings over the events leading to the evictions of Khamul and Oropher, Formendacil has put a lot of work into this game and has, on the whole, been doing an excellent job.

I would add that I do not necessarily oppose the Mod being partial. As you say, Anguirel was incredibly biased in his game, but he was so obvious and elegant in his partiality that it was rather charming. My main gripe was that we knew not where we stood, since the basis upon which votes were to be counted or discounted was entirely unclear and it seemed wrong to me to take advantage of that to promote a previously undisclosed partiality. However, that has now been rectified as we now know where we stand, and I thank you for that, Formendacil. I actually think that you should, going forward, discount reasoning that relies (without more) entirely on the reasoning of others, as it makes it too easy to put in a vote in support of someone. But you should, of course, give notice if you intend to follow that course.

I should perhaps make it clear that, my return notwithstanding, the Alliance of Ultra-DOOM as an entity is no longer participating in this game. It may return one day. But, for now, my participation in this game is as an independent. I am willing to cut deals with other players, but will remain, in general, unaffiliated.

And I make no bones about the fact that I dedicate myself, in the first instance, to the eviction of Elrond. I may vote elsewhere if I can see any benefit in doing so but, for the most part, my vote is likely to be for Elrond each Day until (hopefully) he is evicted.

And so, without further ado:

+ + ELROND

My reasoning.

First, he should, by rights, already have gone. ;)

Secondly, he has already had a number of tries at winning a Survivor contest and failed on each occasion. His desperation to win is rather unappealing and faintly sad in one who should be dignified.

Thirdly, he is a cissy.

Of course, none of those reasons will count.

And so, fourthly:

It seems entirely inappropriate to me, in the midst of the turmoil of the Second Age, for one who should have been contributing so much more to the struggle to absent himself from it for large periods in order to establish what was, effectively, a Middle-earth hippy commune. All that telling tales round the fireplace, singing “Tra-la-la-lally, down here in the valley” and communing with nature is all very well, and charming in its place, but not when the forces of Sauron are encamped on one’s doorstep.

It might be said that establishing a stronghold and defending it with great power provided a valuable refuge for Elves in such a time of trouble. But that, surely, is not the true Noldorin way. Any Noldor worth his salt should be looking for any opportunity to engage the enemy and be willing to nobly sacrifice himself and his people in a vain but glorious effort to make his mark. Did Elrond not learn from the First Age that hiding away in a secret refuge very rarely comes to any good and, at the very least, does irreparable harm to one’s reputation? Just ask yourself. Which First Age Noldorian gained the greatest notoriety. Feanor or Turgon? Elrond was the Turgon of his Age.

To his credit, Elrond did march with Gil-Galad in the War of the Last Alliance, but Gil-Galad was clearly so unimpressed with his battle skills, after all that arty, tree-hugging Imladris stuff, that he relegated him to the role of a mere standard bearer. “You just carry that pretty little flag, Elrond, and keep yourself out of any trouble,” he no doubt said.

And Elrond even bungled the one serious job which fell to him in the entire endeavour, that of persuading Isildur to destroy the Ring. Had he been able to accomplish just that one, simple task, a lot of fuss and bother would have been avoided.

I implore you, my fellow players, free this game from the stranglehold of the phantom’s machinations and let justice be done. Evict Elrond today.

Oh, and if you do decide to vote for him, don't forget to give sound Tolkien-based reasons. ;)

[Anguirel]

Elrond was not Turgon, because Rivendell was not Gondolin. Rivendell was a happy! accepting! nice! place. It had no element of Elven scariness and hauteur, while retaining Elven culture and skill.

Without Rivendell:

All the survivors from Eregion would have been massacred
Sauron would have conquered Eriador
The line of Arnor could not have survived
And the sweet little Hobbits would be completely doomed...

That apart: I support hippy communes. What is wrong with peace, love and brotherhood?

And so I shall vote once again against the supreme exemplar of fascistic, militaristic, non-hung loose unchilledness.

++SAURON

Just like Elrond, he's been in every Survivor so far; but he won't admit it, hiding beneath aliases like "Gorthaur" or "The Necromancer". He's even come second once, but he's still not satisfied. He thinks he has a "right" to win; he needs to be disillusioned, and soon.

I'm talking to an electorate that has, despite some blips, generally supported the downtrodden and relatively obscure. Anarion, Ohtar and Amandil have been protected before their illustrious relatives.

Can such an electorate allow Sauron-the most predictable, tedious, megalomaniac candidate of them all-to progress?

[The Saucepan Man]

Rivendell was a happy! accepting! nice! place. It had no element of Elven scariness and hauteur, while retaining Elven culture and skill.

That apart: I support hippy communes. What is wrong with peace, love and brotherhood?All very well and good, but entirely inappropriate in such troubled times.

All the survivors from Eregion would have been massacredBetter to die nobly and with honour on the field of battle than shamefully skulk away in some arty-farty commune. Surely, Ang, you recognise that neither Feanor nor his sons would have approved. ;)

Sauron would have conquered Eriador
The line of Arnor could not have survived
And the sweet little Hobbits would be completely doomed...
Pure speculation. And the well-being of Hobbits is, for the purposes of this contest, irrelevant.

Just like Elrond, he's been in every Survivor so far; but he won't admit it, hiding beneath aliases like "Gorthaur" or "The Necromancer". He's even come second once, but he's still not satisfied. He thinks he has a "right" to win; he needs to be disillusioned, and soon.I do not disagree. I expect Sauron's time to come. But given the current balance between the tribes, I do not believe that time is now.

[Celuien]

No! Not Elrond again!

There is another Elf far more worthy of eviction. I speak of the responsibility shirking Cirdan.

While Elrond was in Rivendell, defending a stronghold against Sauron and Celeborn/Galadriel did the same in Lorien, what was Cirdan doing? Nothing. Sitting at the Havens building ships and just waiting to leave for Elvenhome. Further proof of his complete disinterest in aiding the Free Folk of Middle-earth is demonstrated in his giving his ring away to Gandalf. Obviously he was looking for someone else to take over the job he was entrusted with when given his ring. Thus, Elrond deserves to stay. Cirdan does not.

++CIRDAN

PS I'm willing to vote for Sauron But not yet... I'll change my vote if necessary to save Elrond.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

+ + Tar-Miriel

Suffice it to say she was no Boudica (Boadicea). Numenorean
feminists must have been very disappointed in her. There
could have been a cool civil war, with perhaps elvsees with
bright, shining swords helping out the king's (queen's)
men/fighters/whatever.

It's difficult to imagine Eowyn, Galadriel, Lobelia, etc.
reacting in such a supine manner. (Picture of Lobelia going
after Ar-Pharazon with her umbrella). :eek:

[arcticstorm]

While his skills may be interesting, such as reading moon letters and calling large counsels to argue the fate of the entire free world, he really doesn't do much to help his tribe, therefore for staying at home and sending others to their doom while he remains in his comortable homely house reading hidden letters on maps ++Elrond.

[Boromir88]

What is all the gripe about here? As has been reminded several times I created this game, and others have followed with versions from other Tolkien works of their own. This is the Mirth forum, and I started this game exactly for that. In fact, Myself and the other survivor starters I think we are still gathering and planning for a Survivor All-star, which will be the last 15 or so contestants from each game.

Anway, here's a link (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12211&highlight=Survivor) to the original game, however this is Formendacil's game and I completely respect that he will do what's best. I didn't discount votes, I did change to non-retractable because it got so confusing to tally up the votes (luckily Glirdan helped me out). But this is a different game and I understand why it is needed to give explanations as to why you vote someone off, I think that it fits in more closely with the show on TV. Everyone has a reason to vote the way they do and if it's required to say why, then so be it. I will say Form, if you are going to do that, I think it would be best to lay out (which it seems you have done) what you are looking for. Also, if you don't count a vote inform that person (through PM or by whatever means) on why, so they don't continue to make the same mistake. Just some friendly suggestions.

Sorry I haven't been participating as much in these last one's it's been kind of difficult, I just wanted to bring up the original thread and reinforce what's been said about this being intended for fun and enjoyment. From what I have seen and participated it seems like it's been going that way. I wish their were alliances in my game, each side pushing for their own candidate. Anyway, that's all I wanted to say, perhaps I'll pop in and vote again.

[Boromir88]

Oh one more thing....

Celuien in defense of Cirdan who had the forsight to see Gandalf as the only istari to stay true to his task is why he entrusted Gandalf with the Ring. The istari were sent to ME to help the Free peoples combat Sauron, Cirdan had the vision to see this and new his ring to light up people's hearts would come of much use to Gandalf. Without Cirdan and his ring would Gandalf be able to spark up the hearts of people? I don't think so.

Though I do agree that Elrond should stay as far as right now, I ask you to reconsider your Cirdan vote.

Elros is the guy everyone should be going after. He shied away from his Elven-heritage and formed the cursed kingdom of Numenor. He chose mortality because he couldn't face/handle living forever like his brother and his other kindred. He's the coward, not Cirdan.

[The Saucepan Man]

Hey, let's leave the Numenoreans alone, shall we? They have suffered enough so far and their tribe is already heavily depleted. The Second Age was, in many ways, the Age of Numenor, so it would seem only fair that at least one fo them should make the final.

Further proof of his complete disinterest in aiding the Free Folk of Middle-earth is demonstrated in his giving his ring away to Gandalf. Obviously he was looking for someone else to take over the job he was entrusted with when given his ring.While I mainly agree with your analysis of Cirdan, who is little better than Elrond in his craven desire not to get involved, at least Cirdan did give his Ring to someone who was prepared to use it for the greater good. Unlike Elrond, who simply used it selfishly to preserve his own little idyll.

[Boromir88]

Hey, let's leave the Numenoreans alone, shall we? They have suffered enough so far and their tribe is already heavily depleted. The Second Age was, in many ways, the Age of Numenor, so it would seem only fair that at least one fo them should make the final.
None of them deserve to be in the final. Ok, it was their age, but the Numenoreans are no good, greedy, elvish wannabees. That's why there was afterall...the downfall of Numenor. Their actions caused their own defeats and their greed for longer life after they were already lived 5 times longer actually cost them. I can't even argue that the Numenoreans (like Sauron and the Witch-King) provide good viewing ratings, they're just wannabees. :D

Though you are making sense with Elrond I will say. Perhaps Earendil's entire family just needs wiped out. I mean let's think about it:

Elrond, along with Gandalf was the main planner for The Fellowship and the destruction of the Ring. But other than that what does he do? Also, that's in the 3rd age. He's even so lazy he sends his sons to give messages, because he doesn't want to leave.

Arwen, though beautiful, just a snobby little princess that is only the symbol of authority. She's like the Queen of England, rich, a nice title, but absolute no authority at all.

Elladan and Elrohir are just Aragorn wannabees, tagging along with the other Dunedain.

Now I know the last 3 aren't contestants, but it just shows the worthlessness of Earendil's descendants. The whole line needs to be wiped out (meaning Elros and Elrond).

[The Saucepan Man]

The whole line needs to be wiped out (meaning Elros and Elrond).You have a point. I will honour a well-reasoned vote for Elrond with an equally well-reasoned vote for Elros (provided that I can think of anything he actually did) once Elrond has departed. :cool:

[Celuien]

It was Elrond's skill as a healer that saved Frodo from becoming a wraith. No Frodo, no Fellowship, Sauron wins, end of story. Elrond useless? Hardly.

As for Cirdan, I'll admit he had wisdom in dealing with Gandalf. Wisdom to pass on a task he wasn't up to. :p So I still think he's less deserving than Elrond.

Honestly, I might change my vote. My goal isn't to eliminate Cirdan as much as it is to save Elrond. But I agree that the Numenoreans have been hit too hard lately, so I won't be looking in their direction.

[The Saucepan Man]

It was Elrond's skill as a healer that saved Frodo from becoming a wraith.Third Age, m'dear, and therefore inadmissible. :p

In any event, didn't Tolkien say somewhere that healing was primarily undertaken by the females of the Elven peoples? There we are. Irrefutable Tolkien-based proof that Elrond is, in fact, a cissy. :D

[Anguirel]

Arwen, though beautiful, just a snobby little princess that is only the symbol of authority. She's like the Queen of England, rich, a nice title, but absolute no authority at all.


I'm sure you don't mean to cast aspersions, but I'm fond of my sovereign and am rather riled by this. Certainly, I'd rather she had authority than the ludicrous men elected by the rabble...anyway, let's keep her out of it.

Incidentally, Arwen doesn't have a nice title. She most certainly isn't a princess.

One of the most interesting things about Elrond is that he isn't King of Rivendell, or even often Lord. He usually sticks to Master...a title on about Sam's level. This shows a good dose of humility and plenty of wisdom, which Cirdan, also titleless, displays as well.

Shall we contrast that with Sauron the Great, Lord of Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Terrible One, The Eye, true King of Middle-earth, etc etc? By rewarding Sauron and punishing Elrond you are voting for insupportably large egos.

If we must chase the sterile grail of tribal equality, though, I'm willing to compromise and lessen the Other Speakers. They're rather dark horses...well, trees...wouldn't want any of them to win by stealth...

[The Saucepan Man]

Certainly, I'd rather she had authority than the ludicrous men elected by the rabble...anyway, let's keep her out of it.That's the one thing that you have said so far that makes any sense, Ang. ;)

By rewarding Sauron and punishing Elrond you are voting for insupportably large egos.Actually the eviction of Elrond will strike a blow against insupportedly (sic) large egos, as it will rile the phantom. :D

[Boromir88]

I'm sure you don't mean to cast aspersions, but I'm fond of my sovereign and am rather riled by this. Certainly, I'd rather she had authority than the ludicrous men elected by the rabble...anyway, let's keep her out of it.
Of course I met nothing serious. Royalty had it's power back in the day, but now you have to admit the Royal line is basically a figure head that has real little power. Anway, how it connected to Arwen is she is the "Estel" or hope of her people, basically a figurehead with little power. The only way she tastes a bit of authority is when she marries the King of Gondor.

Which I must say is another strike against Elrond. What's the junk about him only letting Arwen marry the King of Gondor? What the King of Rohan or say a Lord of a distant land isn't good enough for him? What's this him setting restrictions on who his daughter can and can't marry, that's Shakesperean era :p .

You have a point. I will honour a well-reasoned vote for Elrond with an equally well-reasoned vote for Elros (provided that I can think of anything he actually did) once Elrond has departed.
Good enough for me. I have now been thorougly convinced:

++Elrond

[Anguirel]

Of course I met nothing serious. Royalty had it's power back in the day, but now you have to admit the Royal line is basically a figure head that has real little power.


Oh, I can admit that. But I'm not admitting that it shouldn't have...

Since you all seem to be Dark Lord cuddlers:

--SAURON, ++FIMBRETHIL

The true example here of an emasculating wife...heartlessly abandoning her faithful spouse, leaving him in spasms of grief which he's still pouring into song an Age later. What irresponsibility she shows to te continuation of her kind! And what a bad example she sets to the other Entwives!

She's far worse than Tar-Aldarion, but essentially guilty of the same sin...only she made it permanent.

Send her off!

[The Saucepan Man]

Send her off!But think of the ratings, my dear fellow. There is nothing like the reuniting of a formerly estranged couple to bring viewers flocking in their droves. And, given theit non-hasty approch to resolving their differences, this is one which could run and run. Audiences are hanging on their every, carefully and lengthily delivered, word.

[Celuien]

Third Age, m'dear, and therefore inadmissible. :p

Bah. I refer to my earlier discussion of timeframes. Besides, leading the founding of Imladris should count for something.
In any event, didn't Tolkien say somewhere that healing was primarily undertaken by the females of the Elven peoples? There we are. Irrefutable Tolkien-based proof that Elrond is, in fact, a cissy. :D
Didn't he also say something about the hands of a King being the hands of a healer?

And are you implying, sir, that female-dominant skills are of lesser worth than those of males? For shame. That's no way to persuade me. ;)

Fimbrethil is looking like a good alternative...

[Anguirel]

The ratings? Thank goodness you've remembered them, Saucie!

Why, when you were suggesting sending off the popular harp-player, romantic husband and peacemaker of the show, Elrond, foster-son, lest we forget, of the tormented celebrity former Survivor winner Maglor, I almost thought you must be neglecting the ratings...

[The Saucepan Man]

And are you implying, sir, that female-dominant skills are of lesser worth than those of males? For shame. That's no way to persuade me.That's not what I said at all. My own good wife belongs to the medical profession, and a noble profession it is too.

I was merely saying that in Middle-earth healing among Elvish communities tends to be a role undertaken by the females. As a healer, Elrond is therefore engaing in a primarily female role. Ergo, he is a cissy. :D

He is the Middle-earth equivalent of a male nurse. ;)

(Disclaimer: These comments are made for game-purposes only. No offence to medical professionals, male female or otherwise, is intended and none should be taken.)

[The Saucepan Man]

... the popular harp-player, romantic husband and peacemaker of the show, Elrond ...Indeed. Those qualities must surely have audiences riveted to their screens ... :rolleyes:

[Lalaith]

Sorry, just popping in again. Can't resist...

In defence of Fimbrethil...
Wights of the Barrowdowns - male and female both!

Imagine. Being. Married. To. Fangorn.


Enough to make anyone go postal. To Fimbrethil's credit she did not.

[Anguirel]

How about-

Imagine being an Ent-wife-that is, by necessity, having to marry an Ent, or not marry at all-being married to Fangorn-a relatively active and interesting Ent, in comparison to, say, Skinbark-and wandering callously off to leave him to an alcoholic Ent-draught decline.

Shame, Fimbrethil, shame!

[Celuien]

That's not what I said at all. My own good wife belongs to the medical profession, and a noble profession it is too.

I was merely saying that in Middle-earth healing among Elvish communities tends to be a role undertaken by the females. As a healer, Elrond is therefore engaing in a primarily female role. Ergo, he is a cissy. :D

He is the Middle-earth equivalent of a male nurse. ;)

(Disclaimer: These comments are made for game-purposes only. No offence to medical professionals, male female or otherwise, is intended and none should be taken.)

None taken by this soon-to-be-senior med student. ;)

I sympathize with sterotype-defying trailblazers, which Elrond would be if your argument is correct. It takes courage and true leadership to take on such a role. More points for Elrond.

--Cirdan
++FIMBRETHIL

Indeed, Fimbrethil contributed nothing of note to Middle-earth history. As such, she doesn't deserve to be here. Besides, it was unfair to run out on Fangorn, who is a gem among Ents.

[The Saucepan Man]

I sympathize with sterotype-defying trailblazers, which Elrond would be if your argument is correct.And I would too, had he blazed any trail worthy of note. Instead, he just mooned about in Rivendell while the world fell about around him before stirring himself just enough to carry a pole with a bit of cloth on it to Mordor, there to fail to save Middle-earth.

Besides, it was unfair to run out on Fangorn, who is a gem among Ents.Say it, sister. :p ;)