Survivor: The Second Age

[Boromir88]

And Elrond calls Rivendell the Last homely house west of the Misty Mountains...pah, what advertising baloney. It's just a ploy to rake in customers. To sum up Elrond is a cissy, lazy, control freak, and a scandalous corporate moneymaker. :rolleyes:

[Elu Ancalime]

I dont know if this is Tolkien based but

++Elrond because as hearld to Gil-Galad, that makes him a kind of bodyguard. Being a hearld, he is to protect peace, and should have sacrificed him self infrnot of Sauron to give GG time to fall back, perhaps.
________
COLORADO MARIJUANA DISPENSARY (http://colorado.dispensaries.org/)

[the phantom]

It seems entirely inappropriate to me, in the midst of the turmoil of the Second Age, for one who should have been contributing so much more to the struggle to absent himself from it for large periods in order to establish what was, effectively, a Middle-earth hippy commune.
Elrond did his share of running around commanding part of Gil-galad's forces, but yes, he did take the time to set up a refuge. That same refuge later became the center of healing, lore, and wisdom in all of Middle-Earth. And Elrond picked a good spot. From Rivendell, he was able to provide a stopping place for travelers preparing to tackle the Misty Mts, or a resting place for people who had already come over them. He was in a decent place to exchange messages with Lothlorien and keep the roads clear of evil when necessary.

Also remember that without Elrond, there would be no Aragorn. The heirs of Isildur and their possesions were preserved in Rivendell throughout the years. And the only reason the Ring was able to escape the Nazgul was because of Elrond and his refuge in Rivendell, so don't dare criticize Elrond for taking the time to set up Rivendell. He was doing exactly what was necessary, possibly as a result of his powers of foresight.

Also, remember how accepting Elrond was. Gimli had trouble getting into Lothlorien- dwarves didn't ever go there. In Elrond's house, however, Elves and Men and Dwarves and Hobbits were all welcome. A vote against Elrond is a vote for racism.
And Elrond even bungled the one serious job which fell to him in the entire endeavour, that of persuading Isildur to destroy the Ring.
Oh, come on. No one, even Manwe, could've convinced Isildur to destroy the Ring. That was its power.
I implore you, my fellow players, free this game from the stranglehold of the phantom’s machinations
I do NOT have a stranglehold on this game. One of my very favorites, Ar-Pharazon, got evicted on the first day. Once that happened, any chance of getting my way in this game was gone.
Surely, Ang, you recognise that neither Feanor nor his sons would have approved.
From my point of view, that's the best reason you have, Sauce. As you know I am a huge Feanor-lover, and you are right that Feanor, who always did precisely what was necessary, probably wouldn't have done what Elrond did. But, perhaps Elrond had the correct approach for the time in which he lived. Feanor was meant for another time and situation, so though Elrond didn't act like Feanor, it is completely possible that he took the correct course of action.
In any event, didn't Tolkien say somewhere that healing was primarily undertaken by the females of the Elven peoples?
Yes, he did. And the reason was because the males were the warriors, and so killed other beings, and the ability of elves to heal was diminished by the taking of life. For Elrond to reach the amazing level of healing expertise he had, he had to abstain from slaying in battle. But, let me remind you, he didn't really do that until the Third Age. In the Second Age, he was still running around fighting. It was during the following age that he settled down, and when there was killing to be done he sent his sons, who were very capable warriors.
One of the most interesting things about Elrond is that he isn't King of Rivendell, or even often Lord. He usually sticks to Master...a title on about Sam's level. This shows a good dose of humility and plenty of wisdom
I agree. By right, he could have declared himself King of the Noldorin and Sindarin elves, but he never tried to. He simply did what should be done, and didn't worry about grabbing wealth and power for himself.
By rewarding Sauron and punishing Elrond you are voting for insupportably large egos.
That's right!
Actually the eviction of Elrond will strike a blow against insupportedly (sic) large egos, as it will rile the phantom.
Perhaps the reason my ego is so out of control is because my whole life I've seen the way humble people like Elrond are treated by folks like you and your fellow Elrond voters. Ever think of that?

By supporting Elrond, you will perhaps be encouraging me to curb my ego, and respect Elrond even more than I do.
++Elrond because as hearld to Gil-Galad, that makes him a kind of bodyguard. Being a hearld, he is to protect peace, and should have sacrificed him self infrnot of Sauron
The fact that Gil-galad survived as long as he did showed that Elrond did a mighty good job protecting him. It was only when Sauron himself came forward that Gil-galad died, and that was his choice. Like his grandfather Fingolfin, who chose to confront Morgoth, and like Theoden who seeked out the leader of the Haradrim on the battlefield, Gil-galad and Elendil made the choice to fight the leader of their foe. It was a chieftain's duel. Elrond would've been wrong to interfere. It's obvious that he was willing to, as it was he and Cirdan alone of the elves that stood beside Gil-galad in that contest when all else had fled.

When I look at the list of candidates, I only see maybe five who should be able to challenge Elrond. I think it's silly that he's a candidate this early.

I don't see anyone else on the list that was the best healer in the world, the greatest loremaster in the world, protected the line of kings for an age, crafted the plan and Fellowship that would save the world from Sauron, and controlled a river to boot.

Elrond is about the last person you should vote for.

[Celuien]

Elrond is about the last person you should vote for.

Any chance you'll join the Fimbrethil campaign? For Elrond's sake?

[Boromir88]

It was during the following age that he settled down, and when there was killing to be done he sent his sons, who were very capable warriors.
Well phantom I will have to go against you on Elrond. Now yes, Elladan and Elrohir were very capable fighters...but are you suggesting Elrond should win father of the year for sending his sons to what was pretty much a suicide mission? I think quite the opposite, what father would do such a thing? :D

The fact that Gil-galad survived as long as he did showed that Elrond did a mighty good job protecting him.
He did a fine job of protecting his own wife. Oh and when she was captured it was Elladan and Elrohir to come to her rescue...again Elrond let's others do the work for him.

I don't see anyone else on the list that was the best healer in the world
He did a fine job healing his wife, she ended up leaving...don't blame the gal either. :p

[the phantom]

Any chance you'll join the Fimbrethil campaign? For Elrond's sake?
I suppose. What has she done besides keep a garden? Besides, I'm a bit allergic to several different types of trees, weeds, and grass, so chances are I'm allergic to ents. I won't vote until later though- after work.

[the phantom]

but are you suggesting Elrond should win father of the year for sending his sons to what was pretty much a suicide mission? I think quite the opposite, what father would do such a thing?
Firstly, Elrond's sons could have chosen not to go to the Black Gate. They came as messangers to Minas Tirith bringing Elrond's council (which was perfect, by the way), but after that they could've left. They aren't children. They chose to stand with Aragorn, Gandalf, and the other free peoples. Also, I imagine that Elrond had some amount of faith that things would turn out for the best.
Oh and when she was captured it was Elladan and Elrohir to come to her rescue
Yes, it was.
again Elrond let's others do the work for him
At that point, it was no longer his work to fight and slay. He rightly allowed his sons to go, and focused on doing his part, which was healing his wife when she returned. A fine mess Middle Earth would've been in had Elrond not focused on his healing powers, and so rendered himself unable to stop Frodo's Morgul knife wound from turning him into a wraith.

[Diamond18]

A count of the votes-so-far reveals:

Elrond: 3

Fimbrethil: 2

Tar-Miriel: 1

It distresses me to see a campaign mounting against not one but two females in the same day -- when already we have so few. I am a fan of Fimbrethil, little though there is to know about her. Clearly, though, she (and the other entwives) were independent women. It rather annoys me, actually, that their sex is defined by their relationship to the Ents. What, were there no single Ent-females? How would us human females feel if we were known exclusively as Manwives? No wonder they left their controlling husbands behind. As Lal so efficiently stated, imagine being married to Fangorn.

Therefore I am stating that I will forthwith vote however I need to in order to keep Fimbrethil in the game for as long as possible.

Form, I'm a little unclear on one point, I realize. Is it sufficiently Tolkien-reasoned to cast a vote for one charater to save another, if one's reasons for saving said other character are suffciently Tolkien-based? I.E., is sparing Fimbrethil enough excuse to vote against anyone else?

Just in case it is not, I am going to express some opinion on the ongoing debate about Elrond. I find the points about him letting his sons do most of the work, and declaring who may marry his daughter (and when) to be rather convincing. I had actually forgotten about his dealings in the Arwen matter (clouded as they are by the movie version, I fear). One might say he was exceedingly kind to let Aragon marry Arwen at all -- but I say piffles. Arwen was not a child and therefore he had no right to say anything about whoever and whenever she chose to marry. That's just more males controlling the females, and like Fimbrethil, I say I can do without, thankyouverymuch.

And then of course there are the tra la la lally's down in the valley. :rolleyes:

I cast a vote for Elendil earlier, being confused about who had been evicted. Since he's not even a contestant anymore maybe I don't need to do this, but just for clarity's sake:

- - Elendil

+ + Elrond

[Firefoot]

++Elrond

For such a major character, he really is not as complex as he could be. Everything just sort of happens to him; the only place where he seems to actually take real iniative in something is in founding Rivendell. He's something of a dud among his family. Let's compare: Earendil - duh... Elwing - same category. Shouldn't a son of these parents be destined for absolute greatness? Children: Arwen - may not do much, but page for page she is a heck of a lot more interesting and developed that Elrond. Elladan and Elrohir - don't have much of a chance to do much, but do what they can - avenge Celebrian's death (what does Elrond do? sit around and mourn), ride to war (again, what does Elrond do? sit around). And, as has already been said, he sure doesn't do much in the Last Alliance. The one time he had a real opportunity to make a difference was when Isildur takes the Ring - but Elrond doesn't do a very good job of persuading him otherwise.

Elrond seems to be a prime example of wasted potential.

Edit: hm, I never saw this whole last page...

[Lalaith]

I choose
++ELROND

Why?
Sure, he's a nice guy. I throughly approve of the multi-cultural refuge, it's a great idea, but I'm sure someone else can take over the room bookings and the ring and so on if he goes.
My reasons:
1. A strategic vote (which I hope is admissable grounds) to save Fimbrethil, whose marital plight deserves some sympathy. I'm not saying Fangorn doesn't have some excellent points, but as a spouse he would drive you bonkers. And if she goes, we will never, never know what really did happen to the Entwives.

2. Because it would be so nice for brother Elros to outlast Elrond in Survivor, as quite the reverse happened in Real Middle Earth...

[Anguirel]

It distresses me to see a campaign mounting against not one but two females in the same day -- when already we have so few.

Now, now, I'm all in favour of gender equality, but to enforce patronising positive discrimination is to practically clamour for your chains. True feminists should eject unworthy examples like the donna mobile who was Fimbrethil.

As for the Manwives point-a simple matter of etymology. "Wife" means, at root, "woman". It is only culture that has given it its sense of "man's woman". There could very well have been single Ent-wives.

[The Saucepan Man]

I cannot fault much of your reasoning, phantom. It is a fair and accurate description of Elrond, based upon the material handed down to us. But it must be bore in mind that such material was produced by those with a vested interest in painting him in a good light: Bilbo, who was provided with free board and lodging at Rivendell in return for a favourable review, and Frodo, who bought his passage to the Undying Lands from Elrond's daughter in return for the same.

And, in any event, fair and accurate, like Elrond, is dull, particularly in a contest such as this. Much more interesting and satisfying to be - ah - inventive with the given facts. ;)

So, down with Elrond, the lazy, cowardly, cissy, hippy, neglectful parent. :D

And there is one point on which I must take issue with you:

Also, remember how accepting Elrond was. Gimli had trouble getting into Lothlorien- dwarves didn't ever go there. In Elrond's house, however, Elves and Men and Dwarves and Hobbits were all welcome. A vote against Elrond is a vote for racism.Quite apart from the ridiculous last sentence, which does your case no favours, it should be remembered that the location of Imladris was a well-kept secret. Which means that the only people welcome at Elrond's Last Hippy House were those who he and his "wise" friends chose to invite (unless, like Boromir, they spent an unfeasibly long time looking for it). In other words, it was an exclusive place, open only to the rich and famous. Playboy princes, such as Legolas and miserly but wealthy old Dwarves and their kin. Notice how those who were not quite so high on the social scale, namely Thorin and company, were mercilessly teased by the Tra-la-la-lally'ers lining the driveway. And I suspect that they were only admitted, on sufferance, because, subject to the elimination of a certain Dragon, their financial prospects were favourable.

Rivendell, the Country Club of Middle-earth. :p

There could very well have been single Ent-wives.Ah, but why are Fimbrethil and her ilk not the Ents and Fangorn and co the Ent-husbands?

[the phantom]

I cannot fault much of your reasoning, phantom. It is a fair and accurate description of Elrond, based upon the material handed down to us.
Well, then I've done my job. Now it's up to you guys to listen to me. :)

I doubt Elrond will be saved today, but I'll try anyway.

+ + Fimbrethil

What did she do besides ditch her husband and keep a garden? That's not much compared to Elrond. And Fimbrethil and her friends likely got whacked by Sauron, while Elrond on the other hand, he helped make the plans and aided the people who whacked Sauron. The choice between Elrond and Fimbrethil seems clear to me.

[littlemanpoet]

It has come to my attention that this infamous Fimbrethil had the nickname of "Wandlimb". This nickname, according to certain sources at my disposal, was apparently quite apt. She was in the business of selling her own limbs as magical! Now, Ents may be quite fascinating creatures, but this "magical" business is obviously spurious. So not only does she leave Treebeard high and dry, she also trades of her own person for profit and that with a falsehood. Most disgraceful.

++ Fimbrethil

[Diamond18]

It has come to my attention that this infamous Fimbrethil had the nickname of "Wandlimb". This nickname, according to certain sources at my disposal, was apparently quite apt. She was in the business of selling her own limbs as magical!

Tolkien said that? I don't remember that from LotR. Praytell which 'sources' do you speak of? It may be my memory has gone but so long as we're getting all stringent with the Tolkienism you might be more specific?

As for those who declaim ol' Fimby for leaving her husband -- why is this all her fault and not Treebeard's? Sure, he is pining for her now but who says he rightly appreciated her then? How long did it take for him to actually miss her? After all, the mass departure of the Entwives suggests something of a lack of caring on the Ents' parts. Fangorn, Fangorn, water-drinker, had a wife and couldn't keep her.... (Okay, I'll stop with the badly rewritten rhymes now. *shudder*) Anyway, since Tolkien leaves much to the imagination as far as the Entish domestic dispute goes, it's all a matter of viewpoint whether Fimbrethil et al's defection was a failure of the sexes to co-exist or the devilsh devices of those evil female types. Obviously, I choose to give them the benefit of the doubt and the sympathy of the fellow sex, and believe the Entwives had completely justifiable reasons for being disatisfied with their husbands. Or, at the very least, their husbands just didn't care enough at the time to actually go after them. Whether or not this stand is true feminism doesn't mean anything to me, as I've never cared much for such labels.

[lord of dor-lomin]

Hmm...who to pick, who to pick?

On one hand, a wise, powerful, kind, and humble elf lord.

On the other hand, a walking tree best known for choosing gardening over her lover.

Tough decision.

+ + Fimbrethil

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Fimbrethil is really too stupid to be allowed to stick around. As evidence, she chose an idiotic spot for her gardens- too close to Mordor. If she had any brain at all she'd have had the sense to move someplace safer once Sauron grew strong. I rather expect that she was purposefully putting herself in harm's way in order to lure Treebeard and the other ents out of their woods. If we get rid of Fimbrethil, it will allow Treebeard to give his full attention to winning the game.

++Fimbrethil

[TPotSS]

Wow! This looks like a pretty fun game. Lots of funny stuff from people. :D

The choice between Elrond and Fimbrethil seems pretty clear cut to me, though. Just look at the way they felt about their significant other.

Elrond- He did everything he could to heal his wife so she could stay with him in Middle Earth. Unfortunately for him, it didn't work out.

Fimbrethil- She just picked up and left her mate, and never came back.

Honestly, how cold is that? Then again, what do you expect from an overgrown stick?
++Fimbrethil

[Lhunardawen]

I don't really have it in mind to have Elrond win this season of Survivor, but I'm already convinced that he should stay longer than most contestants.

Like Fimbrethil, for example. How stupid of her to leave Fangorn hanging. And this is the über-lovable Treebeard we're talking about! He certainly does not deserve her, so it's a good thing she left after all.

Besides, I can hardly resist a chance to irk the great Wolfman Sauce. :p

++FIMBRETHIL

[Formendacil]

First off, a bit of housekeeping…

Form, I'm a little unclear on one point, I realize. Is it sufficiently Tolkien-reasoned to cast a vote for one charater to save another, if one's reasons for saving said other character are suffciently Tolkien-based? I.E., is sparing Fimbrethil enough excuse to vote against anyone else?

No. If that’s YOUR reason for saving Fimbrethil, then by all means vote Elrond, but your vote for Elrond should be given reason to do with Elrond.

Thanks for asking, as I don’t think that particular point has been clarified.

Now, on to the counting of the votes:

In my mind, and this may sound strange but it is true, the most damning thing Elendil ever did was name his sword Narsil. Of course, technically Tolkien only says, "...and it was named Narsil" but we can safely assume that Elendil, being the first owner of said sword, would have been the one to christen it. Narsil is, forgive me, the most butt-ugly name in all of Tolkiendom. It sounds like the bastard love child of an air freshener and a hair removal product. Thank goodness Aragorn had the sense to rename it. Wouldn't you rather weild Andúril? I know you would.

I'll get you, my pretty,

+ + Elendil,

and your little sword too!

This vote is not COUNTED. Elendil is dead. :p

And so, without further ado:

+ + ELROND

My reasoning.

First, he should, by rights, already have gone.

Secondly, he has already had a number of tries at winning a Survivor contest and failed on each occasion. His desperation to win is rather unappealing and faintly sad in one who should be dignified.

Thirdly, he is a cissy.

Of course, none of those reasons will count.

And so, fourthly:

It seems entirely inappropriate to me, in the midst of the turmoil of the Second Age, for one who should have been contributing so much more to the struggle to absent himself from it for large periods in order to establish what was, effectively, a Middle-earth hippy commune. All that telling tales round the fireplace, singing “Tra-la-la-lally, down here in the valley” and communing with nature is all very well, and charming in its place, but not when the forces of Sauron are encamped on one’s doorstep.

It might be said that establishing a stronghold and defending it with great power provided a valuable refuge for Elves in such a time of trouble. But that, surely, is not the true Noldorin way. Any Noldor worth his salt should be looking for any opportunity to engage the enemy and be willing to nobly sacrifice himself and his people in a vain but glorious effort to make his mark. Did Elrond not learn from the First Age that hiding away in a secret refuge very rarely comes to any good and, at the very least, does irreparable harm to one’s reputation? Just ask yourself. Which First Age Noldorian gained the greatest notoriety. Feanor or Turgon? Elrond was the Turgon of his Age.

To his credit, Elrond did march with Gil-Galad in the War of the Last Alliance, but Gil-Galad was clearly so unimpressed with his battle skills, after all that arty, tree-hugging Imladris stuff, that he relegated him to the role of a mere standard bearer. “You just carry that pretty little flag, Elrond, and keep yourself out of any trouble,” he no doubt said.

And Elrond even bungled the one serious job which fell to him in the entire endeavour, that of persuading Isildur to destroy the Ring. Had he been able to accomplish just that one, simple task, a lot of fuss and bother would have been avoided.

Need I explain this one? SPM’s vote is COUNTED.

And so I shall vote once again against the supreme exemplar of fascistic, militaristic, non-hung loose unchilledness.

++SAURON

Just like Elrond, he's been in every Survivor so far; but he won't admit it, hiding beneath aliases like "Gorthaur" or "The Necromancer". He's even come second once, but he's still not satisfied. He thinks he has a "right" to win; he needs to be disillusioned, and soon.

I'm talking to an electorate that has, despite some blips, generally supported the downtrodden and relatively obscure. Anarion, Ohtar and Amandil have been protected before their illustrious relatives.

Can such an electorate allow Sauron-the most predictable, tedious, megalomaniac candidate of them all-to progress?

Erm… Anguirel, guess what… Your vote almost didn’t get counted. Without that reference to Sauron’s predilection for aliases in your first paragraph, you’d be without a Tolkien-based foot to stand on.

COUNTED, barely…

There is another Elf far more worthy of eviction. I speak of the responsibility shirking Cirdan.

While Elrond was in Rivendell, defending a stronghold against Sauron and Celeborn/Galadriel did the same in Lorien, what was Cirdan doing? Nothing. Sitting at the Havens building ships and just waiting to leave for Elvenhome. Further proof of his complete disinterest in aiding the Free Folk of Middle-earth is demonstrated in his giving his ring away to Gandalf. Obviously he was looking for someone else to take over the job he was entrusted with when given his ring. Thus, Elrond deserves to stay. Cirdan does not.

++CIRDAN

Celuien refers directly to Círdan’s actions of building ships and giving Narya to Gandalf.

COUNTED

+ + Tar-Miriel

Suffice it to say she was no Boudica (Boadicea). Numenorean feminists must have been very disappointed in her. There could have been a cool civil war, with perhaps elvsees with bright, shining swords helping out the king's (queen's) men/fighters/whatever.

It's difficult to imagine Eowyn, Galadriel, Lobelia, etc. reacting in such a supine manner. (Picture of Lobelia goingafter Ar-Pharazon with her umbrella).

I’m not completely sure that I should be including this vote, but on the balance I think the speculation regarding the consequences of Tar-Míriel not putting up a fight to Pharazôn to be admissible.

COUNTED

While his skills may be interesting, such as reading moon letters and calling large counsels to argue the fate of the entire free world, he really doesn't do much to help his tribe, therefore for staying at home and sending others to their doom while he remains in his comfortable homely house reading hidden letters on maps ++Elrond.

Although I fail to see how being able to read moon-letters is a reason for eviction, it’s a clear link to The Hobbit, and despite Davem’s apparent claims to the contrary, that book is within the pale of Middle-Earth.

COUNTED

Of course I met nothing serious. Royalty had it's power back in the day, but now you have to admit the Royal line is basically a figure head that has real little power. Anway, how it connected to Arwen is she is the "Estel" or hope of her people, basically a figurehead with little power. The only way she tastes a bit of authority is when she marries the King of Gondor.

Which I must say is another strike against Elrond. What's the junk about him only letting Arwen marry the King of Gondor? What the King of Rohan or say a Lord of a distant land isn't good enough for him? What's this him setting restrictions on who his daughter can and can't marry, that's Shakesperean era .

You have a point. I will honour a well-reasoned vote for Elrond with an equally well-reasoned vote for Elros (provided that I can think of anything he actually did) once Elrond has departed.

Good enough for me. I have now been thoroughly convinced:

++Elrond

Boromir refers to Elrond’s requirement that Aragorn be High King of Gondor and Arnor ere he marry Arwen. Vote COUNTED.

Since you all seem to be Dark Lord cuddlers:

--SAURON, ++FIMBRETHIL

The true example here of an emasculating wife...heartlessly abandoning her faithful spouse, leaving him in spasms of grief which he's still pouring into song an Age later. What irresponsibility she shows to te continuation of her kind! And what a bad example she sets to the other Entwives!

She's far worse than Tar-Aldarion, but essentially guilty of the same sin...only she made it permanent.

Send her off!

A biased recounting of the estrangement of the Ents and the Entwives, I’m inclined to think, but a valid reason. Vote change COUNTED.


None taken by this soon-to-be-senior med student.

I sympathize with sterotype-defying trailblazers, which Elrond would be if your argument is correct. It takes courage and true leadership to take on such a role. More points for Elrond.

--Cirdan
++FIMBRETHIL

Indeed, Fimbrethil contributed nothing of note to Middle-earth history. As such, she doesn't deserve to be here. Besides, it was unfair to run out on Fangorn, who is a gem among Ents.

A part of me is tempted to say that there really isn’t a reason given here to count the vote as changed. It being a grey area, I’ll accept as admissible the rationale that Fimbrethil contributed nothing of note to ME history. Seems to be true…

Changed vote COUNTED

I dont know if this is Tolkien based but

++Elrond because as herald to Gil-Galad, that makes him a kind of bodyguard. Being a herald, he is to protect peace, and should have sacrificed him self in front of Sauron to give GG time to fall back, perhaps.

Looks Tolkien-based to me. Tolkien definitely wrote that Elrond was Gil-galad’s herald. Whether or not that means that he should have done more than he did is debatable…

COUNTED.

Just in case it is not, I am going to express some opinion on the ongoing debate about Elrond. I find the points about him letting his sons do most of the work, and declaring who may marry his daughter (and when) to be rather convincing. I had actually forgotten about his dealings in the Arwen matter (clouded as they are by the movie version, I fear). One might say he was exceedingly kind to let Aragon marry Arwen at all -- but I say piffles. Arwen was not a child and therefore he had no right to say anything about whoever and whenever she chose to marry. That's just more males controlling the females, and like Fimbrethil, I say I can do without, thankyouverymuch.

And then of course there are the tra la la lally's down in the valley.

I cast a vote for Elendil earlier, being confused about who had been evicted. Since he's not even a contestant anymore maybe I don't need to do this, but just for clarity's sake:

- - Elendil

+ + Elrond

Direct references to the parental control of Elrond over Arwen- vote COUNTED.

++Elrond

For such a major character, he really is not as complex as he could be. Everything just sort of happens to him; the only place where he seems to actually take real iniative in something is in founding Rivendell. He's something of a dud among his family. Let's compare: Earendil - duh... Elwing - same category. Shouldn't a son of these parents be destined for absolute greatness? Children: Arwen - may not do much, but page for page she is a heck of a lot more interesting and developed that Elrond. Elladan and Elrohir - don't have much of a chance to do much, but do what they can - avenge Celebrian's death (what does Elrond do? sit around and mourn), ride to war (again, what does Elrond do? sit around). And, as has already been said, he sure doesn't do much in the Last Alliance. The one time he had a real opportunity to make a difference was when Isildur takes the Ring - but Elrond doesn't do a very good job of persuading him otherwise.

Elrond seems to be a prime example of wasted potential.

A complete recounting of Elrond’s life… albeit in a rather biased light. Perfectly admissible. COUNTED.

I choose
++ELROND

Why?
Sure, he's a nice guy. I throughly approve of the multi-cultural refuge, it's a great idea, but I'm sure someone else can take over the room bookings and the ring and so on if he goes.
My reasons:
1. A strategic vote (which I hope is admissable grounds) to save Fimbrethil, whose marital plight deserves some sympathy. I'm not saying Fangorn doesn't have some excellent points, but as a spouse he would drive you bonkers. And if she goes, we will never, never know what really did happen to the Entwives.

2. Because it would be so nice for brother Elros to outlast Elrond in Survivor, as quite the reverse happened in Real Middle Earth...

As mentioned at the head of this post, saving someone else is a fine REASON to vote, but not admissible criteria for the counting of that vote. However, Lalaith refers to Elrond’s longer lifespan than Elros’. This is a grey area, since to whom does this properly refer: Elrond or Elros? Is it a reason to boot the one, or a defence of the other?

COUNTED.

+ + Fimbrethil

What did she do besides ditch her husband and keep a garden? That's not much compared to Elrond. And Fimbrethil and her friends likely got whacked by Sauron, while Elrond on the other hand, he helped make the plans and aided the people who whacked Sauron. The choice between Elrond and Fimbrethil seems clear to me.

Similar situation as Celuien’s changed vote. Admitted on the same grounds.

COUNTED

It has come to my attention that this infamous Fimbrethil had the nickname of "Wandlimb". This nickname, according to certain sources at my disposal, was apparently quite apt. She was in the business of selling her own limbs as magical! Now, Ents may be quite fascinating creatures, but this "magical" business is obviously spurious. So not only does she leave Treebeard high and dry, she also trades of her own person for profit and that with a falsehood. Most disgraceful.

++ Fimbrethil

I must confess to being completely forgetful as to if Fimbrethil is ever called Wandlimb in Tolkien’s works…

However, LMP is admitted anyway on the “abandonment of Treeebeard” plea. COUNTED.

Hmm...who to pick, who to pick?

On one hand, a wise, powerful, kind, and humble elf lord.

On the other hand, a walking tree best known for choosing gardening over her lover.

Tough decision.

+ + Fimbrethil

Grey areas again… I shall call it permissible, since the reference to Fimbrethil as a “walking tree”, “choosing gardening over her lover”, while not specific to her situation, but to Entwives in general, is definitely Tolkien-based.

COUNTED.

Fimbrethil is really too stupid to be allowed to stick around. As evidence, she chose an idiotic spot for her gardens- too close to Mordor. If she had any brain at all she'd have had the sense to move someplace safer once Sauron grew strong. I rather expect that she was purposefully putting herself in harm's way in order to lure Treebeard and the other ents out of their woods. If we get rid of Fimbrethil, it will allow Treebeard to give his full attention to winning the game.

++Fimbrethil

One of the better anti-Fimbrethil arguments I think we’ve seen- a direct reference to the choice of the Entwives’ gardens: the Brown Lands, a clearly Tolkien detail.

COUNTED

The choice between Elrond and Fimbrethil seems pretty clear cut to me, though. Just look at the way they felt about their significant other.

Elrond- He did everything he could to heal his wife so she could stay with him in Middle Earth. Unfortunately for him, it didn't work out.

Fimbrethil- She just picked up and left her mate, and never came back.

Honestly, how cold is that? Then again, what do you expect from an overgrown stick?
++Fimbrethil

Very similar to lord of dor-lomin’s vote. COUNTED, on the same grounds.

I don't really have it in mind to have Elrond win this season of Survivor, but I'm already convinced that he should stay longer than most contestants.

Like Fimbrethil, for example. How stupid of her to leave Fangorn hanging. And this is the über-lovable Treebeard we're talking about! He certainly does not deserve her, so it's a good thing she left after all.

Besides, I can hardly resist a chance to irk the great Wolfman Sauce.

++FIMBRETHIL

Yet another reference to the departure of the Entwives. COUNTED

Okay, toDay is now over. Any votes posted from this point on will be counted towards tomorrow’s tally.

[Formendacil]

The Thirteenth day of voting fell as follows:

Tar-Míriel: I

Elrond: IIIII II

Fimbrethil: IIIII III

On this day, the tribes were reshuffled.

Those remaining:

Tribe of the Line of Lúthien:
Elrond Peredhil
Amandil
Anárion
Elros Tar-Minyatur
Tar-Míriel

Tribe of the "Endorians":
Celeborn
Círdan
Celebrían
Narvi
Fangorn

Tribe of the Rest:

Sauron
The Witch-king
Celebrimbor
Ohtar
Galadriel

Day 14 begins now. Vote away!

[Lalaith]

So, there were not enough among us with the imagination and compassion to pity the marital plight of Fimbrethil. Oh well....

I've been pondering the Elrond question, specifically my point from yesterday:
someone else can take over the room bookings and the ring and so on if he goes.
Now, who would that someone be? Why Mrs Elrond, Celebrian, of course...and, if she's too busy running Rivendell single-handed, she won't go gallivanting off in Orc territory, and so she'll never get captured and tormented...and even if they tried, she'd have the ring as (possible) protection...

Rewrite history! Save Celebrian! Vote Elrond! He would want it this way, honest...

++ELROND

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

++Sauron, who had the gall to call himself 'Lord of the Rings'

First Age: Given control of an island, lost it to an elf and her lover. Ran away. [Not counted, perhaps, but I just wanted to point that out.]

Second Age: Put on disguise (ineffective, since he was shunned by some), sold patent rights to tacky rings in an effort to control the minds of the dominant race. Must be the most pathetic world-domination scheme in the history of evil (no offence to Tolkien for writing it that way.)

Oh, and you want a secret? He stole the whole ring idea from my father. ;)

[Boromir88]

Nilp actually everyone in the Tribe of the Rest (who chose the name :p ) should stay as of right now. Look at the ratings they are bringing in. I mean Sauron vs. Galadriel! Ohtar the carrier of Narsil! The Witch-King and Celebrimbor! This tribe is going to collapse in it's ownself, no one needs to vote them off, they'll all kill eachother. And think of the ratings! (Now I sound like Sauce).

My victim will probably be someone from the other tribes. And unless phantom or any of his other team can persuade me back over, it'll be Elrond.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

+ + Narvi

Let's see, these two brilliant individuals (elf
and dwarf) get together to make and label
a crucial entrance to the greatest dwarf
dwelling in Middle-earth, one that's also a
source of mithril, and they stick a sign on it
with the uncrackable code of needing to say
"Friend" to come in! :rolleyes:
Obviously this door also
had mystical properties dumbing down anyone who
came up to it. And it's Narvi who's elected
for ouster, not Celebrimbor, since he okayed
this inscrutable password and it's his people's
place.

[Lhunardawen]

How many ages does it have to take before you realize that

++CELEBORN

deserves to be voted off? We can give more credit to the White Tree that bears the name than to the Elf. And I'm quite sure Moderadacil is referring to the Elf here. At least Celeborn the Tree was a meaningful symbol of something, while Celeborn the Elf isn't even the first person you'll associate with Lothlorien!

[Anguirel]

We'll never, never realise that Celeborn deserves to be voted off, because he doesn't.

He isn't the first name you associate with Lothlorien, because he's modest, not because he's incapable.

I'm glad to see someone is finally seeing sense. Down with the blot on this show, the complacent Lord who thinks he can waltz his way to power with the aid of tacky bling.

A chance has occurred to prove that Maia or no Maia, Dark Lord or Lidless Eye, Sauron is just an exploiting, made-up vagabond with nary a spot of ability to his name. Forward the Witch King of Angmar!

++SAURON

[Boromir88]

A chance has occurred to prove that Maia or no Maia, Dark Lord or Lidless Eye, Sauron is just an exploiting, made-up vagabond with nary a spot of ability to his name. Forward the Witch King of Angmar!

++SAURON

You withdraw from attacking Sauron and I won't go after the Witch-King. Does that sound good? Now I don't plan on wanting the WK rid of (just yet) but that doesn't mean I can't suddenly I don't know...change my mind. :p

[Anguirel]

Attack whoever you choose, Ring-Bandit Gondor Boy, but you won't divert me from my divinely ordained mission!

[Boromir88]

Attack whoever you choose, Ring-Bandit Gondor Boy, but you won't divert me from my divinely ordained mission!
As you wish, all I'm saying is if you want to complete your mission, like we all here do, then you may need to...make some deals, bargain, compromise...etc. After all that is what Survivor is all about, right? :D

[Lhunardawen]

Modest? Modest you say? How can he be modest when he calls himself "Lord" yet doesn't even deserve the title? The only way he got it was through affiliation.

[Anguirel]

To be quite honest, Lhuna, that's unadulterated balderdash...

A Sinda of higher lineage than Amdir of Lorinand, had Celeborn chosen he could have rightfully taken the title of King of Lothlorien, by virtue of his kinship to Thingol, the greatest Sindar ruler ever known, and the first.

Moreover, his rulership shows he would have deserved such a title. While his wife absorbed herself in moral conundrums and dilemmas over the Rings of Power, she would have stayed within Caras Galadhon, weaving cloaks, and staring into the Mirror. To the natives of Lothlorien, she would have been a distant figure.

Celeborn, by contrast, spoke Sindar as his native tongue, led armies of Lothlorien in person, and was even aware of the local surroundings outside. His people would have been familiar with him as their patriarch and, yes, as their Lord-quite deserved.

[Celuien]

++SAURON

1. No imagination whatsoever. With all the designs he could have used for the One Ring, what does he pick? A plain gold band with tacky poetry.

2. Speaking of poetry, what is that all about? If he really wanted to hide his ring by making it plain, why is he putting depressing verses on it. That's stupid.

3. And speaking of stupid, what kind of intelligent Dark Lord ties his existence to a piece of tacky jewelry? Just opening up vulnerability to his enemies there. What happens if he loses it or some enterprising hobbit melts it down? Not very smart.

4. The whole Numenor business. Yes, he persuaded an attack successfully, but got himself drowned in the process. Lucky for him he was able to come back. Once again, pure incompetence at Dark Lording.

Morgoth was the only real expert at being evil. Sauron is just a pale imitation. Get rid of him.

[Boromir88]

1. No imagination whatsoever. With all the designs he could have used for the One Ring, whst does he pick? A plain gold band with tacky poetry.
Anyone who can make a plain gold ring one of the most powerful instruments in Middle-earth deserves a lot of credit points.

2. Speaking of poetry, what is that all about? If he really wanted to hide his ring by making it plain, why is he putting depressing verses on it. That's stupid.
Did he want to hide it? Everyone pretty much knew he wanted to conquer the world and he made a ring to do it. And he made a Ring to control the races, that's why the bearers of the three kept their's secret.

3. And speaking of stupid, what kind of intelligent Dark Lord ties his existence to a piece of tacky jewelry? Just opening up vulnerability to his enemies there. What happens if he loses it or some enterprising hobbit melts it down? Not very smart.
It's actually quite brilliant. To point out to Tolkien's own words. As far as if he lost it? Doesn't matter:
But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished.'
Sauron bound the powers of the Ring to him, so even if he did not have it he would still retain it's powers.

As far as if someone dropping it in the lava. Not Sauron's fault that Eru decided to stick his hand in the mess. Everyone knows the Ring wouldn't have been destroyed if it wasn't for Eru. I mean Frodo sure as heck wasn't going to destroy it, that sissy...he's just a dark lord wannabbe...and Gollum just happened to slip in. Actually rather brilliant to make a ring that can only be destroyed in one place, and have it be so powerful the only way it can be destroyed is by Eru messing with the affairs. :p

I move to cancel Celuien's vote because I have disproved her points. :D

[The Saucepan Man]

How tedious.

Shame on those who favoured the haughty Elven Lord over the female ethnic minority contestant. ;)

And how sad that the contest is being skewed by a small number of irregular voters who turn up on the orders of their lord and master to vote exactly the way he tells them to. Still, there is, I suppose, no rule against it. And if the only way the phantom is able to maintain his preferred candidate is to rely on the votes of lackeys, then so be it. The effort involved is, at least, probably keeping him out of trouble. :p

So, there were not enough among us with the imagination …Indeed. To my mind, a lack of imagination is the central issue here. It is all very well and good to keep repeating how wonderful Elrond is because Tolkien wrote him that way. But how much more interesting, satisfying and imaginative to have a bit of fun with the character.

Well, then I've done my job.You rather missed my point, although I suspect that was intentional. Your posts in defence of Elrond, to be frank, would be more appropriate in a “Who is your favourite Elf?” thread on Novices & Newcomers. Yet, as you were only too keen to point out, we are in the Mirth forum here. Come on folks, when it comes to Elrond, which posts are the more entertaining? Those proposing his eviction or those seeking to defend him?

A vote for Elrond is a vote in keeping with the spirit of the show!

So I shall stick to my mission.

+ + ELROND

Do I need to give any reasons? I gave enough yesterday. In summary, he is a cowardly hippy who preferred to skulk away on his arty commune rather than stand up and be counted, thus betraying his Noldorian ancestry. He took up a girly profession, thus proving him a cissy. When he was called upon to march to war, his commander trusted him so little that he relegated him to the role of mere flagbearer. And even then he couldn’t perform the one small task asked of him – to persuade Isildur to destroy the Ring.

And then there is his conduct on this show. He has hardly participated in the tasks, preferring to languish in his Last Homely Hut by the stream, monopolising the only water supply, holding pretentious poetry recitals and granting admittance only to those of sufficiently high birth. The one task that he did participate in, all he did was wave a flag and fail dismally to carry a bucket of water a few yards without spilling any, thus ensuring the failure of his team. Talk about history repeating itself!

And he is, like the phantom’s posts, boring the audiences rigid. :D

[The Saucepan Man]

Ring-BanditOy, that's my expression! Lay off or my lawyers will be in touch. Unless, by its use, you are intending to endorse my earlier case against Celeborn ... :p

[Anguirel]

I continue to regard that sequence of pictures, Saucie, as one of the greatest defences of Celeborn ever created.

And it was a "homage", as the Da Vinci tripe manufacturer would no doubt put it...

[The Saucepan Man]

I continue to regard that sequence of pictures, Saucie, as one of the greatest defences of Celeborn ever created.To be honest, you're not wrong there. And I would join you in your defence of him if you would only see sense and get over your irrational liking for the dull bore of Rivendell. C'mon. You know you want to. You have to admit that he's not a patch on the likes of Feanor and sons. :D

[Boromir88]

I can't understand the logic in kicking of Sauron. I mean think about it, he's in the same tribe as Galadriel! You know what this does to leap the level of excitement about the game! What more intriguing, interesting, story line is there than Galadriel and Sauron in the same tribe! They can't stand eachother, give it two hours and these two will be drowning eachother. Without Sauron what is the other storyline that catches viewers? I mean you already have Fangorn putting people to sleep just by talking, you need something to spice up the game. And this is it, Sauron vs. Galadriel...same tribe. It's great for TV, I haven't seen a better match up yet. This is even better than Spaghetti with milk.

[the phantom]

And how sad that the contest is being skewed by a small number of irregular voters who turn up on the orders of their lord and master to vote exactly the way he tells them to. Still, there is, I suppose, no rule against it. And if the only way the phantom is able to maintain his preferred candidate is to rely on the votes of lackeys, then so be it. The effort involved is, at least, probably keeping him out of trouble. :p
Wow. You're really making me feel powerful. Thanks. :p

But seriously, you might not want to refer to my intelligent friends as "lackeys". You might just anger them into perpetually voting against you.
Come on folks, when it comes to Elrond, which posts are the more entertaining? Those proposing his eviction or those seeking to defend him?
Actually, what I truly find entertaining is the contrast between the two camps.
Do I need to give any reasons? I gave enough yesterday.
Hee hee. That's one reason why I really wanted to save Elrond. I wanted to see if you could bring yourself to, for a third straight day, push for his execution. I was sort of betting you'd become awfully frustrated by the third day, but you seem to be doing a good job of remaining in good spirits.

I may even be nice and not call upon my "lackeys" today. :D

Now, who do I think should be gone today? It's getting to the point where I like, to some degree, most of the candidates, or at least respect them somewhat. I think that's a good problem.

So instead of asking who I want gone, I think it would be more productive for me to ask myself, "Who definitely should not win the entire game?"

In my opinion, Anarion, Tar Miriel, Cirdan, Celebrian, Narvi, Fangorn, and Ohtar have no business taking the trophy home, and I think most of you agree. Sure, it might be fun to take a couple of them into the later rounds- I happen to have a soft spot for a couple of them- but it would be a travesty for one of them to win the game when there are so many better candidates. I don't particularly like a couple of the "better" candidates, but it wouldn't upset me if they won.

So, you can bet I'm going to vote for one of the people I listed above.

[Lalaith]

Anarion, Tar Miriel, Cirdan, Celebrian, Narvi, Fangorn, and Ohtar, eh?

.....oh, and as you've frequently said, you don't like Galadriel either...well now...how many girls does that leave?
Oh, yes, none at all....what a surprise.

[Anguirel]

In terms of principles on how these things should be conducted, I agree with Saucie and am prepared to defend many of the minor characters the phantom just condemned.

But when it gets down to particulars, Elrond is no tedious lorekeeping pedant. (I like lorekeeping pedants anyway, since I seem to be fated to become one.)

He's the foster-son of Maglor, so I'm not budging in this particular.

Long ago, Saucie manipulated transatlantic inferiority complexes. I now propose to do the same...a bit more openly, perhaps.

Ye...ah, I believe ye are named nerds...give ear.

You are one of a pair of twin brothers, children of parents as beautiful as they are affluent and adequate.

Everyone likes your little brother more than you. He's bouncy and enthusiastic and sporty, and people are saying he'll grow up to be a fine Balrog-killer. But you don't like swords much and stick to your books.

Your brother becomes ever more extrovert and insufferable. You realise he is a jock. You are also thoroughly bored with your beauteous, perfect, absentee parents.

Then two cool Feanorions turn up, massacre your people, drive off your mother and adopt you. One of them is the greatest bard and scholar of the Age. Life is good. And you've got one up on sporty Elros who whines for his Mummy. Then he has to swan off to the War of Wrath and become King of Numenor, and the Feanorians die or vanish. Typical.

You keep studying and reading. You know that unlike Elros-who is now mortal-you are going to have a chance for some revenge. You study and study until you can beat Gil-Galad at his own game.

You marry a wench far more delectable than Elros' unnamed Numenorean she. You own Middle-Earth's best fortress. You have brilliant children.

What I'm saying...

is that Elrond's story is the story of a scholarly nerd triumphing against the odds...

Vote Sauron, the Jock of the Dark Side. With Tolkien-based reasoning.

[the phantom]

Oh, get off your high horse, Lalaith.
oh, and as you've frequently said, you don't like Galadriel either...well now...how many girls does that leave?
It still leaves one- Galadriel. Despite the fact that I have a couple problems with her (especially when I compare her to Elrond, he really highlights her faults), you will notice that I did NOT place her on the list of unworthy winners.

If Galadriel wins, though she is not someone I "like", I will not consider the game a loss, or a failure, because I think she has enough going for her to make her a worthy champion.

Just like Sauron. If I were dropped into Middle Earth, I would undoubtedly be opposed to Sauron and fight against him. But despite that, I think he would be a very worthy winner of this game, on the basis of his accomplishments, however evil he may be.

That's why I'm not about to hop onto the Sauron bandwagon to save Elrond. Sauron controlled a good portion of Middle Earth throughout the 2nd and 3rd age, and shaped events in the world more than anyone else. He hatched a flawless plan for world domination. Only divine intervention saved Middle Earth from him.

I don't care if he is evil, and I don't care that, if he were real, I would try to kill him. His deeds earn him a place far beyond little specks like Ohtar, Narvi, and Tar Miriel.

[Anguirel]

His deeds earn him a place far beyond little specks like Ohtar, Narvi, and Tar Miriel.

phantom, you're a fine dictator, but like most such you don't understand the significance of the insignificant. Nor the insignificance of the significant.

Citizens of Arda, eject Sauron and let the minor characters have their day...

[Lalaith]

Ang, if we ask him nicely, maybe he'll teach us the goose-step...

[Firefoot]

++Elrond

The guy seriously has to go. He's a disappointment (his family), a wimp (watch me sit back and relax while everyone else goes to war), and lacks the persuasive powers that all Elven leaders ought to have (Isildur). What more must be said?
Anarion, Tar Miriel, Cirdan, Celebrian, Narvi, Fangorn, and Ohtar Congratulations, you have just picked several of my favorite remaining characters.

[the phantom]

you don't understand the significance of the insignificant. Nor the insignificance of the significant.
Actually, I do have an understanding of the role minor characters play. They often make invaluable contributions. However, major characters make several invaluable contributions, and in many cases cannot be replaced.

For instance, some other guy could've saved the shards of Narsil. It didn't have to be Ohtar.

Sauron and Elrond on the other hand- some of the things they did could not have been done by anyone else. They are singular talents. I am of the opinion that we should protect our singular talents.
if we ask him nicely, maybe he'll teach us the goose-step...
I imagine anything more complicated than putting one foot in front of the other is a bit beyond your capabilities.
Congratulations, you have just picked several of my favorite remaining characters
So what? I happen to like a couple of them too (but I'm not foolish enough to say who, as it would make them a target of those who envy me).

It doesn't matter so much to me that someone I love wins. It matters more that someone worthy of representing the entire Second Age wins.

[Firefoot]

phantom, you must be a real idealist if you think the most deserving player always wins reality TV shows. :p

And based on that logic, I would certainly say that Tar Miriel was quite singular in her talents. Good luck trying to replace her.

Ang (and other people voting Sauron) - anyone interested in cutting some kind of deal to get rid of Sauron and Elrond on consecutive days? Otherwise it seems the phantom will have his way with the minor characters...

[the phantom]

phantom, you must be a real idealist if you think the most deserving player always wins reality TV shows.
It is true that the most deserving player doesn't always win, but that doesn't make it right. We should at least make some sort of attempt to see that deserving characters have a chance at winning.

Surely you don't think it is good when deserving players don't win?
anyone interested in cutting some kind of deal to get rid of Sauron and Elrond on consecutive days?
Don't worry Firefoot. I think it is extremely possible that both Elrond and Sauron will die today. After all, this crowd has obviously shown themselves to be stupid enough to cast out two worthy winners on the same day.

[The Saucepan Man]

Wow. You're really making me feel powerful. Thanks.Well, if having control over the votes a few fellow Downers who are neither interested nor independent enough to think for themselves, in a Middle-earth reality show, makes you feel powerful, then I am happy for you. :rolleyes:

But seriously, you might not want to refer to my intelligent friends as "lackeys". You might just anger them into perpetually voting against you.The evidence, as it stands, speaks for itself. But I am perfectly prepared to reevaluate my assessment should they actually show sufficient spirit and independence of mind to actually think for themselves. :p

I was sort of betting you'd become awfully frustrated by the third day, but you seem to be doing a good job of remaining in good spirits.Yup. I'm in for the long haul, if that's what it takes.

In my opinion, Anarion, Tar Miriel, Cirdan, Celebrian, Narvi, Fangorn, and Ohtar have no business taking the trophy home, and I think most of you agree.I think that you might be surprised. I'm with Ang on the importance of the seemingly insignificant characters this, but then it's traditional for me to root for the underdog in these kinds of shows. But thank you for your handy dandy list of who not to vote for.

But honestly, Ang. To try to portray Elrond as an underdog. Well, it's shameful. ;)

Ang (and other people voting Sauron) - anyone interested in cutting some kind of deal to get rid of Sauron and Elrond on consecutive days? Otherwise it seems the phantom will have his way with the minor characters...This seems like a good plan to me, although I have given my word to Boro to try to help him evict Elros as and when Elrond goes. Which reminds me, are you planning on voting today, Boro?

Don't worry Firefoot. I think it is extremely possible that both Elrond and Sauron will die today.Oh come now, you and I both know that you and your rent-a-crowd posse will swoop in later and vote to evict one of your selected "insignificants", most probably Narvi. You are nothing if not predictable, my dear fellow.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

some phantom: 'Insignificant' characters are there to put the 'significant' characters in their proper place when they get too big for their dungarees.

Who killed Isildur? An unnamed Orc.

Who renders the golden boy useless until the end of Arda? A pile of rocks.

Who got Souron[sic]? An angsty hobbit--and no, I do not mean Frodo. The other one in the loincloth.

I can go on and on, and perhaps prove to you that the 'mighty' are just well-placed persons with a lot of airtime, bested in the end by the 'weak.'

But I probably won't succeed, since you deem yourself one of the 'mighty.' Beware lest a nerd wielding an ectoplasmic cannon get you.

Oust Sauron! Oust Elrond! Oust everyone else! Victory for the fair Jewel-daughter!

[TPotSS]

I'm voting for
++Cirdan
He's such a coward, and a bad leader!

In the first age, right after Morgoth returned from Valinor, Cirdan and his people wasted no time in getting soundly defeated and pushed back into their forts by Morgoth's wimpy little orcs. Cirdan and his precious havens were on the brink of total defeat when Feanor and his sons showed up and shredded the orcs to bits.

Throughout the next however many thousand years, Cirdan stayed glued to the coast like a monkey on the last banana on Earth. Why? Because the ocean was always the weak point of the bad guys. Melkor didn't like it and didn't attack by sea, so staying by the sea was a great option for the cowardly.

And later on, Sauron established himself in the southeast, and Cirdan was more than happy to stay in the northwest, right on the ocean, so that if things went bad he could jump on a ship and leave the good people of Middle Earth to their horrible fate. I'd bet that Cirdan slept on a ship, just in case of an attack.

The only time he ever ventured out was during the Last Alliance, when Gil-galad demanded that the elves help the Numenorians. I'd bet that Cirdan had to spend the first few months of the battle recovering from the twisted arm Gil had to give him to get him to leave the havens.

And then, when he was foolishly entrusted with one of the rings, what did he do with it? Make a refuge from Sauron, and take an active role in Middle Earth? No! He shoved it off on someone else.

Cirdan needs to leave.

[Diamond18]

I am going to vote for:

+ + Elrond

Why? Well, my reasoning from yesterday still stands. Is his control over an adult (and therefore perfectly capable of making her own decisions) Arwen the most damning thing to ever mar a character? No. However, it is still enough to vote against him, and so vote against him I shall. Had he simply counseled Aragorn and Arwen in the way he thought wisest, I would not be quite so harsh. But no edicts, thank you. In addition, one can look back at my argument for Amandil and compare him to Elrond. If Elrond had been in Amandil's place, probably he would have Elendil on the suicide mission to Valinor. Shameful. :p

I have other, more personal reasons that have been well documented, of course, but as none of them are strictly based in things Tolkien wrote, this will be my official stance.

Also, I find SpM's convoluted and imaginative (albeit somewhat unfair :p ) descriptions of Elrond more entertaining than the less imaginative stance of Elrond's supporters. I have already belabored the point about the difference between Mirth and The Books or Novices and Newcomers -- so as long as Form will accept things that have their root in Tolkien I enjoy the unorthodox interpretations.

Also, I've voted for Elrond twice in a row and see no reason to break the habit.

As soon as Elrond goes I will join Ang in voting for Sauron, since he was a bad guy and a fairly inept one at that. He's like Grima Wormtongue to Morgoth's Sauron. But first things first.

[Glirdan]

++Elrond

He wears a red silk cloak!!! Need I say more??

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

As soon as Elrond goes I will join Ang in voting for Sauron, since he was a bad guy and a fairly inept one at that. He's like Grima Wormtongue to Morgoth's Sauron. But first things first. (Diamond o' the Numbers)Interesting idea. I'll change bandwaggons, then.

(But I'll get you yet, you inept excuse of a central evil figure of two Ages!)

--Sauron

++Elrond

Why? I expected better from a son of Eärendil and Elwing. At least Elros went out into the Sea (mariner blood shows) and ruled a kingdom whose citizens would eventually dominate Middle-earth when Elves flee West.

Oh, yes, that's right. He went for the copout choice. 'If I'm an Elf, I can go to the Valar's protected pad when everything goes to Mordor in a wedding band,' he must have thought as he made his choice. How courageous. :rolleyes:

At least other Elves did something valiant. His lack of courage shows in his other deeds. Commanded by Gil-galad to help Eregion, he rushed back when he saw the Orcs. 'No way I would fight against such numbers!' he must have thought as he turned tail. Would a Fingolfin or Fingon turn back even against great odds? No! But this chap did.

Then his next significant deed? He founded a country club! What ho! At least Finrod and Turgon had thought of battle when they built their hidden stronghold. But this guy had no intention of fighting; he wants to stay and learn his 'Lore.'

Gil-galad had to twist his arm before he went in the War of the Last Alliance. And what did he do? Raise the banner and say, 'To me! To me! Surround me so they'll have to get through you to get to me!' What lionhearted resolve! :rolleyes:

Finally (since this is just Second Age Survivor), he gets his one chance to do something helpful--talk Isildur into chucking the Ring. Did he succeed, for all his 'wisdom'? No! At least he could have done some Quenya prayer, invoking the One to manipulate his hands into 'accidentally' pushing Isildur into Mount Doom. ( :D ) Or something. But, sadly, he did not, which is why he had to call a 'Council of Elrond' in the Third Age, to once again pass the responsibility to others.

[Celuien]

Ha, Boro. Why a ring when Sauron could have made something interesting? Like, well, I don't know. A Salt Shaker of Doom. Rings are such a cliche. Now Feanor was someone with originality. Silmarils and Palantiri are special, unlike a humdrum golden band. And if were going to talk rings, Celebrimbor's were better. Giving them appearances to match powers (to some extent anyway) was a nice touch.

Let's say Sauron didn't want to hide his ring. Why did he leave it behind (presumably) when he went to Numenor? Besides, for his plan to control the Elven rings to work, it had to be a secret. Couldn't expect the Elves to use theirs if they knew about Sauron's little plans, could you? ;)

And I still say it's pretty stupid to put your power as a Dark Lord into a loseable, destructable object. Could he really 100% know what would happen to him without the Ring. Probably not. So it's a bad move to tie yourself to it if you can't be sure of the consequences. Arrogance about no one being able to access/steal/destroy the thing aside.

Arrogance is yet another point against Sauron.

[Elu Ancalime]

++Elrond

He could have saved the High Kingship of the Noldor, but he let Gilgalad die in vain
________
Toyota quickdelivery (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_QuickDelivery)

[Eonwe]

++Elrond

He wears a red silk cloak!!! Need I say more??

Yes, he also has a red silk handkerchief. If for no other reason than that, I will vote for Elrond.

++Elrond

PS. As much as I feel like I'm betraying the Second Age, and myself, how can I pass up this when Glirdan is using my argumetns from...whichever Surviver was before this one... ;) :p Good job, Glirdan!

[Elu Ancalime]

He wears a red silk cloak!!! Need I say more??

Your right! I remember that argument popping in and out of TH, and that was Glirdys own game. Its a small world afffter alllll ;)
________
Ford N Series Tractors Specifications (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_N_Series_Tractors)

[Glirdan]

Actually, I got that from Crazy Captions, but it was tossed around a bit in mine. :D

[Elu Ancalime]

Actually, if one wanted to push the envelope, Im suprised a poke at Movie Elrond's "girly crown" hasnt been reasoning yet.
________
Weed (http://wwweed.com/)

[lord of dor-lomin]

Um, just to let you know, if we continue on this course and kill Elrond, Sauron, and the other "worthy" contestants, and keep the minor characters alive, this game is going to suddenly get really really boring towards the end.

Seriously. Think about it.

The major characters have a lot of stuff written about them, thus endless possibilites for finding both real and humorous reasons to attack and defend them. If we cut the great down until we're left with minor characters, what kind of lame game would that be?

There's only so much you can say about minor characters. We're going to find ourselves in the position of trying to come up with arguments derived from just a few lines of text. That means the arguments won't be very long, and there won't be as many variations.

Sauron and Elrond, on the other hand- you can practically write a book either for or against them.

Don't we want to save the best for last?

Ah, but it's probably too late to save them anyway. The foolish masses have already spoken.

[Diamond18]

Fimbrethil was pretty minor, and we found plenty to yammer about as far as she was concerned.

As long as we use our imagination, the game will never be boring.

Those who cannot see that just lack the necessary skill. ;)

But seriously, Lord, don't you ever get tired of agreeing with Phantom?

[Formendacil]

The Fourteenth day of voting was a contest, primarily, between Elrond and Sauron, but in the end, there was no contest. The voting fell as follows:

Círdan: I
Narvi: I
Celeborn: I

Sauron: II

Elrond: IIIII IIII

Now, participants will note that, toDay, I have not required Tolkien rationale- due to the late hour on which this day is ending for me. However, I'm quite proud of you all, since only Glirdy (naughty exmod!) and Eonwe's vote didn't have a legitimate rationale- and the result would have been the same anyway.

There shall probably not be a vote analysis after tomorrow's vote either, since I work until about this same time, but I plan to have proper analyses on the days following.

Also, to those saying that only Second Age material is admissible: wrong.

I'll accept anything Tolkien, no matter what the Age. The Second Age was just criteria for me picking the candidates. You can vote them off for anything Tolkien.

Participants in all three Survivors, Sauron and Elrond's tussle for surival ended in a Sauronian win.

Those remaining:

Tribe of the Line of Lúthien:
Amandil
Anárion
Elros Tar-Minyatur
Tar-Míriel

Tribe of the "Endorians":
Celeborn
Círdan
Celebrían
Narvi
Fangorn

Tribe of the Rest:

Sauron
The Witch-king
Celebrimbor
Ohtar
Galadriel

Day 15 begins now. Vote away!

[Formendacil]

Erm...

In quoting yesterday's day-ending post for the one just created, I inadvertanly edited it instead. I'll go back and fix it as best I can, but be warned that it may be rather inaccurate.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

++Sauron, who had the gall to call himself 'Lord of the Rings'

First Age: Given control of an island, lost it to an elf and her lover. Ran away.

Second Age: Put on disguise (ineffective, since he was shunned by some), sold patent rights to tacky rings in an effort to control the minds of the dominant race. Must be the most pathetic world-domination scheme in the history of evil (no offence to Tolkien for writing it that way.)

Oh, and you want a secret? He stole the whole ring idea from my father. ;) (++Nilpaurion Felagund (who is not a legitimate candidate)) Yeah, what he says.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

+ + Fangorn

Rumor has it he's really Old Man Willow in
disguise, cleverly biding his time to ingratiate
himself with hobbits before leading them all
in a Pied Piper march to the Old Forest.

[Boromir88]

I say we kick someone out of the Endorians, that has to be the most boring, unattractive, unsuspenseful group of people I ever see. I mean if it wasn't for the "Tribe of the Rest" people would be falling a sleep just by listening to Fangorn talk.

[The Saucepan Man]

Justice at last! :D

Well, I consider myself bound to honour my pledge to Boromir88 and so, today, I must vote for Elros (even though he himself seems inclined not to do so). Since, however, Boro did not vote in the decisive events of yesterday, I consider myself bound to do so for one day only.

+ + ELROS TAR-MINYATUR

Now to think of some reasons …

Erm, his title always makes me think of him as a Minotaur. And Minotaurs are bad things, right?

Not good enough?

OK, his name is translated either as “Elf of the Spray” or “Star-Foam”. The first of these is a misrepresentation, as he was no Elf, and it is also rather effeminate. The second sounds like Styrofoam, which is an artificial substance, suggesting that he might have been somewhat false in his dealings.

Still not good enough?

OK, let’s look at his life. As one of the sons of Earendil and Elwing, he was given the choice between Elvish immortality and Mannish immortality. I do not criticise his choice, as he showed a greater degree of humility than his brother in choosing mortality over immortality. However, why was he even given a choice? What had he ever done to deserve it? Prior to this, all we really know about him is that he managed (along with his twin bother, now thankfully departed) to get himself kidnapped by the sons of Feanor and ended up playing around in a waterfall. Big deal. And, if it was simply in consequence of the deeds of his parents, well that smacks of nepotism to me.

And then, having chosen mortality, he is given exceptional longevity and his own private island to rule. Again, what did he ever do to deserve such honours?

And, as ruler of Numenor, did he ever achieve anything worthwhile? Not that I am aware of. OK, so he is at the head of a long line of great Kings. But anyone in his position could have achieved that. I’m looking for a more solid performance, but just not seeing anything.

So there we have it. Elros had it all handed to him on a silver platter in return for doing absolutely nothing. In light of a similarly poor performance on the show to date, he is not a deserving winner and should be evicted forthwith.

... before leading them all in a Pied Piper march to the Old Forest.You mean that Treebeard is the phantom ... :eek: ;)

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin
... before leading them all in a Pied Piper march to the Old Forest.

You mean that Treebeard is the phantom ...

That was supposed to be a secret!
After all, the phantom already knows what
evil lurks in the hearts of men! :eek:

[Anguirel]

Aha! Lookee at the hypocrite!

The so-called champion of minor characters persecutes them in the person of Elros, continuing to let Sauron run riot! What lack of imagination!

There is now absolutely no reason why Sauron should remain. The tide is clearly turning against those perceived as claiming the "right to win".

These world-domination jags of his have never been funny, and his transvestitism as pictured here

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4e/Annatar.jpg

is just disturbing, and frightening away both male and female audiences. We've had enough of this "Annatar" thing. It's getting depressing and really quite sad.

As for his ludicrous Gothic fashions...

http://www.propworld.nu/bilder/sauron.jpg

Not much better, are they? Particularly as whatever armour he wears, he still gets pasted in battle by any half-decent Elf or Man who takes him on.

As for this...

http://img-fan.theonering.net/middleearthtours/images/eyeofsauron_decipher.jpg

...just embarrassing, isn't it? Stop trying to be evil-looking, you old failure. We know you've just got cataracts.

++SAURON

[The Saucepan Man]

The so-called champion of minor characters persecutes them in the person of Elros, continuing to let Sauron run riot!First off, I am honouring a pledge, albeit most likely for one day only. You, at least, surely understand the importance of honour.

Secondly, I would most certainly not describe Elros, despite his failure to achieve by his own efforts anything worthwhile, as a minor character. He is one of the central figures of the Second Age, and so fair game as far as I am concerned.

For what it's worth, I agree that Sauron should go too. He, like Elrond, is beginning to look like a bit of a sad has-been in these shows. If you would but exercise a little patience, and show some imagination yourself by considering an alternative candidate of your own for once, I will be happy to join you in your endeavour.

I suspect, however, that you will find some sympathetic ears elsewhere today.

[Lalaith]

I've been pondering who to vote for today - it was this that swung it for me:
The tide is clearly turning against those perceived as claiming the "right to win".

I do hope so.

In the Second Age, Sauron turned many to his will: most of Numenor, the Nazgul, the Voice of Sauron, whoever he once was, the Dead Men (before they were dead). Those most vunerable to his lure were those who were attracted by the glamour of power, who could be persuaded that "might was right".
Now he's doing it to the viewers as well. You can see his influence right here in this thread. It's like that bit in "The Ring" (the Japanese horror flick, I mean, not Wagner or Tolkien) when the girl crawls out of the telly to get you. *shudder*
It's getting creepy and it must stop.
++SAURON

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Lalaith is quite convincing. The
Faithful should resist the allure of Sauron.

- - Treebeard
+ + Sauron

[WaynetheGoblin]

++SAURUN
i think that i voted for him at the beggining.

[Diamond18]

Wayne, I think you might want to edit your post to add some more Tolkien based reasoning, or your vote most likely won't count at the end of the day. And believe me, there's nothing sadder that not counting fer nuthin' at the end of the day.:p

I said I would vote for Sauron and I'm a gonna:

+ + Sauron

First of all, he's a bad guy. Do we honestly need more reason than that? Kill the bad guys, kill the bad guys!

Secondly, as there as there are only two bad guys left, let's compare them.

The Witch-King -- strikes fear in the hearts of grown men and maketh them soileth themselves.

Sauron -- Gives pretty gifts and whispers anti-Valiar rubbish into people's ears, but otherwise leaves everything cool and scary to his lackeys. Oh get off your bum, you lousy pathetic excuse for a Dark Lord!

Should someone who was bested by a trio of halflings really win Survivor? I think not. Should someone who fell for the age old trick of tapping the opposite shoulder (i.e. Aragon and co. at the Black Gate) really win Survivor? Please. Made ya look!

[Celuien]

What I said before here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=453751&postcount=556) and here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=453484&postcount=533) still goes.

++SAURON

[the phantom]

I was going to vote for someone else, but I have been swayed by Sauce's argument. Elros had everything you could ever want- long life, riches, and his own island kingdom, but what did he do to deserve it? I think we should cast out the undeserving Elros.
+ + Elros
The tide is clearly turning against those perceived as claiming the "right to win".
Well, that just shows how dumb people are.

I would understand turning against people who claim some sort of unearned right, but that's not what we are talking about. We're talking about characters who, through their choices and deeds, have earned the right to call themselves Survivor Champion.

We should give credit where credit is due, and reward those who have put forth the effort to place themselves among the great and powerful.
Should someone who was bested by a trio of halflings really win Survivor? I think not.
Sauron was most certainly not bested by a trio of halflings. He was defeated by divine intervention- he was bested by Eru. Sauron had grown so powerful and his Ring plot was so perfect (no one could willfully destroy it) that God himself had to step in on several occasions to ensure his defeat. If that's not greatness I don't know what is.

[Boromir88]

Well, I consider myself bound to honour my pledge to Boromir88 and so, today, I must vote for Elros (even though he himself seems inclined not to do so). Since, however, Boro did not vote in the decisive events of yesterday, I consider myself bound to do so for one day only.~Sauce
How noble of you Mr. Sauce. I regret not being able to make it to vote in time, but I respect your decision to be only bound to vote once. ;)

So I will also vote for

++Elros

Because of the reasons I listed a couple days ago:

Elros is the guy everyone should be going after. He shied away from his Elven-heritage and formed the cursed kingdom of Numenor. He chose mortality because he couldn't face/handle living forever like his brother and his other kindred. He's the coward, not Cirdan.

Though you are making sense with Elrond I will say. Perhaps Earendil's entire family just needs wiped out. I mean let's think about it:

Elrond, along with Gandalf was the main planner for The Fellowship and the destruction of the Ring. But other than that what does he do? Also, that's in the 3rd age. He's even so lazy he sends his sons to give messages, because he doesn't want to leave.

Arwen, though beautiful, just a snobby little princess that is only the symbol of authority. She's like the Queen of England, rich, a nice title, but absolute no authority at all.

Elladan and Elrohir are just Aragorn wannabees, tagging along with the other Dunedain.

Now I know the last 3 aren't contestants, but it just shows the worthlessness of Earendil's descendants. The whole line needs to be wiped out (meaning Elros and Elrond).

Elros the founder of the greedy got to have more Kingdom of Men shouldn't be on the island anymore.

[Eonwe]

Elros had everything you could ever want- long life, riches, and his own island kingdom, but what did he do to deserve it? I think we should cast out the undeserving Elros.

Really, Phantom, I would expect better reasoning from you. What did he do not to deserve it? The rain falls on both the just and the unjust, and Elros was far from unjust. Long life he gets from his geniology. Can you help that, or even influence it one way or another? Riches? He was given exceptional favore from the Valar. What you are doing is like trying to deny people their birthday presents just because "they don't deserve them!"

Boromir, you too?

Shirked his half-elven heritage, you say? No, my good friend, he was simpely embracing his full manish side, since he couldn't be both. Not to mention, according to the Valar themselves, he made the better choice (as in "even the Valar shall grow weary and envy the Gift of Men.)

That's like you saying, "Here, you can have chocolate or vinilla. Ohhhh, you chose vinilla you coward!" No, I just happen to like choclate better, and didn't you say I could choose anyway?!

Ha! Your scandolous and inflamatory comments on Earendil's descendents I will leave unanswered, for the simple reason they have no merit, and therefore deserve no answer.

[Boromir88]

Shirked his half-elven heritage, you say?
And like I said he's a coward. He can't handle living forever, he has to choose mortality because he can't take the torture of living on forever. If Elrond deserves any credit he deserves at least accepting his Elvishness and living forever.

And look who Elros founded? He didn't want to live forever, but he founded a Kingdom that wasn't happy with living 5 times the amount of other men and they had to try to achieve more lifetime.

[Eonwe]

he has to choose mortality because he can't take the torture of living on forever.

Gotha. So which would you like today, Mr 88: the stretching machine, the hand crushing mallet, or the waterbed? The waterbed?! Ha! You coward, your not worthy of living!!!!

Elros didn't found a kingdom filled with sissy fountain of youth seekers. That came a few thousand years after his death. I'm sure you can see how he is not at fault for this, considering dead people can't influence the living.

[Firefoot]

++Sauron

Someone commented that he was seeming rather worn out, and I thoroughly agree. What was that quote again...? "Winners never quit, and quitters never win, but only idiots never win and never quit," or something like that?

Now for some more Tolkien based reasoning... he doesn't really seem to deserve to be in power, except that he is powerful. He starts it off all wrong in the First Age, getting beat out of "his own" fortress by Luthien and Huan. Eventually Morgoth goes away, and Sauron who was only the second "best" baddie in the first place now promotes himself. He does his ring trick which only sort of works - how do you let the other most powerful rings escape your grasp anyway? Seriously, his armies throughout the Second and Third Age should have been plenty to wipe out the whole world, but he can't do it. He's always the one letting his troops down. Last Alliance, he lets himself get knocked out by Isildur waving around daddy's sword; WotR, he's not even smart enough to watch his own borders. He may be powerful, but he doesn't make that great a use of that power. Let's try accompanying it with some intelligence next time, shall we?

[Diamond18]

He may be powerful, but he doesn't make that great a use of that power. Let's try accompanying it with some intelligence next time, shall we?

Exactly!

Sauron was most certainly not bested by a trio of halflings. He was defeated by divine intervention- he was bested by Eru. Sauron had grown so powerful and his Ring plot was so perfect (no one could willfully destroy it) that God himself had to step in on several occasions to ensure his defeat. If that's not greatness I don't know what is.

Actually, that's a matter of opinion. One can point to many times when Sauron could have got his ring back but didn't, simply because he was too unimaginative to think that anyone would try to sneak in his back door and melt his ring in Mount Doom. Smacks of stupidity. If he'd never turned his eye away from Mt. Doom, they would never even have gotten to the point where Gollum bites of Frodo's finger and acidentally falls in the lava. And you can't really say that Gollum tripped over the finger of Eru, it could just be one of those lovely lucky coincedences authors like to use. Regardless, though, the characters of LotR had plenty to do with besting Sauron, plenty, and you won't convince me that they had noting at all to do with it and Eru just did everything. Piffles! What a pointless story it would be, then. Why didn't Eru just zap Sauron with lightening if he cared so much?

However, all of this is rather beside the point, I'll vote Sauron off for the same reasons I'd vote Hitler off -- sure, they both were pretty good at being depraved, and "almost succeeded" in the end -- but I am under no compulsion to respect them for it. And I certainly have no desire to reward them for it.

[Lhunardawen]

Sauron was most certainly not bested by a trio of halflings. He was defeated by divine intervention- he was bested by Eru. Sauron had grown so powerful and his Ring plot was so perfect (no one could willfully destroy it) that God himself had to step in on several occasions to ensure his defeat. If that's not greatness I don't know what is.

Well then, let's just say that Eru knew what he was doing.

++SAURON

You'll all soon come to your senses and vote against Celeborn, anyway.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Reasons, people, we need reasons. It won't do at all to have Formodacil disregard your votes at the end of the day.

some phantom just might use his league of 'extraordinary' puppets just to help Sauron survive. We need all the help we can get, and that means votes that count.

[Lhunardawen]

Okay, let me elucidate:

Eru did some intervention via a trio of halflings (and then some) to get rid of Sauron; this means he must have really wanted him out of the picture. And because he did, and he's supposed to be omniscient, therefore we should do as he did. Capiche?

Oh look, I'm being Eru's puppet!

[Formendacil]

The Fifteenth day of voting was about Sauron. And, as with all battles surrounding Sauron, he either won or lost dramatically. The voting fell as follows:

Elros: III

Sauron: IIIII IIII

Now, HOUSEKEEPING:

Due to various facts, such that it is 1:00 am in my timezone, I have to get up early tomorrow, I need a shower before bed, and that I've just received word of a death in "the family", I do not have time to do a proper analysis of the votes tonight. Therefore, all votes have been counted. Of course, with the way things fell, I think Sauron would have been booted anyway. To all of you including Tolkien rationale, my serious thanks! Tomorrow will be back to business-as-Tolkien-usual, with the analysis of the votes. It will also be a rather long day, as rather than stay up until 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning, I'll let it drag on until I get up and online Saturday.

Those remaining:

Tribe of the Line of Lúthien:
Amandil
Anárion
Elros Tar-Minyatur
Tar-Míriel

Tribe of the "Endorians":
Celeborn
Círdan
Celebrían
Narvi
Fangorn

Tribe of the Rest:
The Witch-king
Celebrimbor
Ohtar
Galadriel

Day 16 begins now. Vote away!

[Diamond18]

Now that Sauron is gone I can reveal my true motive for voting for him -- I want to be the only creature of pure evil inhabiting this thread, and he was my competition! Ha ha ha! I am not Diamond18, I am THE WITCH KING!

Okay, clearly what I am is sleep deprived and delirious.

I may retract this later, depending on whichever way my mood is violently swinging, but I'd like to start off today with a vote for:

+ + Fangorn

A: Because I want revenge for the ousting of Fimbrethil, and all the "ooh poor lovelorn Treebeard, left by a coldhearted woman" arguments that did said ousting.

B: Because he never really did anything interesting, besides destroying Isengard. Which was, okay, pretty cool, but it was one thing done in a vastly long lifetime. Most of the time he just stood around harooming and writing imitations of Elven poetry.

[Lhunardawen]

++CELEBRIAN

for being such a neglectful wife and mother! She's really just like that Fimbrethil, actually, only that she had these Orc-inflicted wounds for an excuse. Valid perhaps, but that's not the point!

Besides, Elrond needs someone to console him.

[The Saucepan Man]

Well, one of the "Endorians" needs to go to maintain the balance of the show.

Which leads me to direct my gaze on Celeborn once more.

Now, the hen-pecked husband thing does elicit some sympathy from me for him. But, really, he was supposed to be the wisest Elf in Middle-earth during the Third Age. If that was the case, then surely he could have stood up for himself a bit better.

And what did he actually achieve?

In the Second and Third Ages, he ruled over Lothlorien with Galadriel. He is said to be Lord of that realm. Yet it is clear who wore the trousers in that relationship. It was primarily Galadriel's power, and the power of her Ring, which maintained Lorien's defences. And it was she who, in reality, ruled there.

He is said to have been the wisest of all Elves. Yet, even a cursory glance at the Lothlorien chapters of LotR will reveal that Galadriel was by far the wiser of the two.

He is said to have been the greatest giver of gifts. Yet it was Galadriel who bestowed the most useful gifts on the Fellowship.

He commanded the army that conquered Dol Guldur. Yet it was Galadriel who destroyed its walls, thus rendering its defences ineffective.

Let's face it, Celeborn would have been nothing without Galadriel. And all that he did achieve relied heavily on her. As they are now in different tribes, this is becoming painfully and embarassingly apparent on the show. For trying to gain fame, notoriety and power through his wife's endeavours and not through his own efforts, I vote:

+ + CELEBORN

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

So anyone who lives in isolation — just hanging out, taking it easy, not going off to fight in wars or cause mischief — is not interesting and deserves to be evicted? Fair enough, we need an exciting show; but we also need a role model for people who enjoy the simple things in life; who are content with a nice walk in the forest. Not everyone on this show should be opposed to that way of life.

Treebeard is awesome. Don't vote for him.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Galadriel
Let's face it, even for Middle-earth elves
she's downright scary and daunting. And she probably
goes on endlessly about the good old days in
Aman, how she was considered the cat's meow (not
Beruthiel's lot) by the valar, how she wouldn't
let Feanor have any strands of her hair, yadda, yadda, yadda.
And if she goes it could unleash the brilliant
leader (?????) inside Celeborn.

[The Saucepan Man]

And if she goes it could unleash the brilliant leader (?????) inside Celeborn.Well, their being on separate tribes hasn't exactly brought any wonderful leadership capabilities out in him. Your '?'s are most appropriate, in my humble opinion. ;)

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Very sad. :( It seems both Celeborn
and Rodney Dangerfield got no respect. :p

[Anguirel]

Saucie, your defence of "balance" fluctuates with every day that passes. You speak of equilibrium, but campaign against two brothers in a row! I'm interested to see that after the feeble outcome of your last attempt you have let Elros simply slide.

I would normally vote for Treebeard, but am somewhat moved by Eomer's appeal.

The spiteful attempt by Saucie to skewer Celeborn on stale and rotting arguments does him no credit.

No, this is the time to finally sort out the succession crisis among those of Luthien's line.

++AMANDIL has had his time, and lasted quite as long as he would wish-let him depart with honour and give his grandson, the estimable younger son Anarion of Gondor, opportunity to flourish as a King.

[The Saucepan Man]

I'm interested to see that after the feeble outcome of your last attempt you have let Elros simply slide. :rolleyes:

Do you actually read this thing?

I made clear that it was a vote cast to honour a pledge and that I regarded myself as being bound by said pledge for one day only.

The spiteful attempt by Saucie to skewer Celeborn on stale and rotting arguments does him no credit.Interesting that you would appear to have no answer to these "stale and rotting" arguments.

Your own dedication to preserving Elves, at the expense of those of your own kind, does you no credit either. :p ;)

[Anguirel]

Because I've answered them before and I'm sick of it. You know that your whole anti-Celeborn splurge had the originality of a Gandalf-uncloaking joke.

And "my kind"? I see no cursed Sindar forged swords up for eviction...

Vote Amandil to let Anarion divide and rule!

[The Saucepan Man]

Because I've answered them before and I'm sick of it.Actually, my previous argument was based wholly on his hen-peckèdness. You answered it well and elicited some sympathy from me. Had you only joined me in my quest to rid the show of the dull bore of Rivendell, I would have stood shoulder to shoulder with you in defending him. Since you did not, my attack is redoubled with new arguments. These, you have not answered.

And "my kind"? I see no cursed Sindar forged swords up for eviction...No, swords, cursed or otherwise, do not appear to qualify as contestants under the game rules. Which leads me to wonder whether their votes should be counted as valid ... :p ;)

[Anguirel]

I don't believe I have to be but to the inconvenience of crushing these absurdly formulated, wizened little misconceptions for the ten trillionth time. Ah well. Once more into the breach...

And what did he actually achieve?

Well, you've referenced quite a lot of what he achieved...if in a slanted fashion.

In the Second and Third Ages, he ruled over Lothlorien with Galadriel. He is said to be Lord of that realm. Yet it is clear who wore the trousers in that relationship. It was primarily Galadriel's power, and the power of her Ring, which maintained Lorien's defences. And it was she who, in reality, ruled there.

Oh?

Who marshalled Lorien's forces? Who provided justification for the pair being there in the first place? For without Celeborn Galadriel had no de jure right to lord it over a Sindar/Silvan people, as you, Saucie, a Man of Law, should recognise!

Celeborn provided a vital cultural and linguistic bridge between the Elves of Lorien and their airy Faerie Queene. She may be astonishing and captivating, intuitive and remarkable, but I can assure you that Celeborn would have held the practical grasp of governance.

He is said to have been the wisest of all Elves. Yet, even a cursory glance at the Lothlorien chapters of LotR will reveal that Galadriel was by far the wiser of the two.

Define wise. Galadriel may have seen far, but Celeborn too gave crucial advice, in a quiet, unflashy way. For instance he warned Boromir against scorning old wives' tales. Celeborn says what he thinks. He's an Elf with feet solidly on the ground-a rare combination.

He is said to have been the greatest giver of gifts. Yet it was Galadriel who bestowed the most useful gifts on the Fellowship.

Such an obvious point. And so obviously answered. Quite simply, boats-the single most vital gift for the Fellowship at that moment. And if you look at Galadriel's gifts...short of the Phial, she gave...belts, a bow to an Elf who already had one, a tacky gem and some earth...pretty things. But Celeborn gets the points for usefulness again.

He commanded the army that conquered Dol Guldur. Yet it was Galadriel who destroyed its walls, thus rendering its defences ineffective.

You're not going to make me extoll Celeborn at Galadriel's expense, but though her achievement was splendid, the battle was already won without her. It was won the moment Celeborn's army made the vital junction with Thranduil's-the Orcs, without Nazgul to lead them, were doomed thereafter.

Let's face it, Celeborn would have been nothing without Galadriel. And all that he did achieve relied heavily on her.

It is often contended that Celeborn "is nothing without Galadriel", "is tied to apon-strings"-one has to wonder, how on earth did he rule Rivendell for Ages in the plural after her departure, in the changing world after the Ring War? Yet again Celeborn shows that he has quality alone as well as with his wife.

But my real problem with the case against Celeborn is not that it is false or illogical, but that it is trite and boring. Saucie has just evicted Elrond and tried to evict Elros on a "support the underdogs" ticket (when the other option was Sauron...) With usual duplicity and doublethink, he now attacks one of those underdogs with exhausted, tedious, borrowed venom. It seems to me pathetic.

There. I lay it to rest; I have confidence in the good taste of the Barrowdowns.

Evict Amandil.

Eomer, back me up to help Celeborn and I'll join your protection of Treebeard.

Lhuna, never vote Celeborn again and I'll...smile. Savvee?

[Diamond18]

Ang, you know Eomer balks at the idea of trading votes, etc., he's said so before. I think you'll be more likely to save Celeborn by joining me in voting for Fangorn/Treebeard than getting Eomer to help you evict Amandil.

[Anguirel]

Oh, but Eomer will make an exception for meee, I'm sure. We're both tall, dark Gaels...

Your suggestion is however noted as a last resort.

For the moment I exhort supporters of Celeborn to join in voting Amandil to get fresher blood flowing in the veins of the Elendili.

Remember what I said before. Anarion's a younger son.

He needs to be given space to exercise his folkloric advantage...out with his grandfather!

[Firefoot]

I think it's finally time for Celeborn to go. He's not a particularly interesting character and lives perpetually in the shadow of Galadriel. I can't remember anything that he did by himself of his own volition without her. He seems rather detached from most proceedings. It makes one wonder just what he did after Galadriel passed into the West. He doesn't seem terribly capable of much on his own.

++Celeborn

[Anguirel]

The curse of this game is that you spend ages carefully refuting arguments and people just slip by and repeat the same old ones...which is why I post so much on these threads...

[Firefoot]

Haha, sorry. Speaking for myself, anyway, I usually pick someone off the list who I want to go, generally based more off my personal dislikes than any particular reasoning, and then come up with some reasoning... except several times arguments have already been stated. I promise I did read your post though. :D

[Lalaith]

Every time the cameras come to the Line of Luthien Tribe, Amandil's not even there. He's down in the bay, trying to build yet another funny little ship. He's just yearning to leave, you can see it in his eyes, poor man. Let him leave this Hither Shore, or at least try.

++AMANDIL

[Celuien]

Must...rescue...Celeborn.

++AMANDIL

Amandil has no interest in being here. His task is to sail into the West and chat with the Valar (if they'll let him).

Let's add some more to this...

I have no problem with his trip. In fact, I think it was a noble effort. But ill-advised. I can't come up with any better solution if he wanted to get Numenor back in the Valar's good graces, but it wouldn't do any good for the real problem, which was Sauron working on Ar-Pharazon and Ar-Pharazon's pride. Probably should have just tried to help the remaining Faithful in Numenor and left for Middle-earth with Elendil and Co.

[The Saucepan Man]

Who marshalled Lorien's forces? Who provided justification for the pair being there in the first place? For without Celeborn Galadriel had no de jure right to lord it over a Sindar/Silvan peopleYou are seriously suggesting that they would have turned their noses up at Galadriel without Celeborn being there? Don't make me laugh.

Celeborn too gave crucial advice, in a quiet, unflashy way.Celeborn gave advice that any Tom, Dick or Aelfwine could have given. Helpful he may have been, but that does not an Elf the wisest make. His claims were over-inflated and thus he is a fraud.

Quite simply, boats-the single most vital gift for the Fellowship at that moment.Again, helpful but hardly qualifying him as the greatest giver of gifts. Just ask Gimli who gave the better pressies out of the two. Once again, his claim is over-stated.

It was won the moment Celeborn's army made the vital junction with Thranduil's-the Orcs, without Nazgul to lead them, were doomed thereafter.Pure speculation. Had Galadriel not torn down the walls, the battle would have been prolonged and bloody. And, in any event, had others not gone to the effort of destroying the Ring, Celeborn wouldn't have stood a chance, even with the help of his missus.

But my real problem with the case against Celeborn is not that it is false or illogical, but that it is trite and boring.Did it occur to you that this may be because he is so dull that there is very little else to say about him?

And Celeborn hardly qualifies as an underdog with this audience of Elfophiles ... ;)

[Elu Ancalime]

...And I return. To find Elrond gone (yay) and Suaron also (???). Amandil you say? For all we know Amandil could have made the difference between the nine ships of Elendil escaping or the Dunedain and the Hope for the West being swallowed into a toilet bowel.

++Celeborn

In defense of Amandil

EDIT: Right, Diamond18. So: Celeborn, although he may have seemed like Galadriel's shadow, really wanted her to get more attention. That way, he could just sit back and eat lembas while she did all the hard work (cooking, cleaning, and saving Lorien and the War)
________
Honda vf700f (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Honda_VF700F)

[Celuien]

...And I return. To find Elrond gone (yay) and Suaron also (???). Amandil you say? For all we know Amandil could have made the difference between the nine ships of Elendil escaping or the Dunedain and the Hope for the West being swallowed into a toilet bowel.

Amandil is a cissy. :p ;)

[Diamond18]

Form said that voting for one character to protect another will only work if you come up with an additional reason to vote for the character you're voting for. I.E. if you vote for Celeborn to save Amandil, Elu, you need to state an additional case against Celeborn, rather than just a defense of Amandil.

Amandil is a cissy.

Right, because it's so cissy to throw yourself on the mercy of the gods, who've threatened to kill you if you show your grubby human face on their shores. A'yep. :p

[Anguirel]

Celuien, how could I forget? Fight fire with fire...

Amandil's a sailor, which casts grave doubts on his masculinity.

His family are all useless, except Anarion.

He doesn't have any decent swords.

His title is stupid. Andunie? Sounds like a laxative.

And Amandil sounds like Amanda. Girly. Ha. Nyah.

Imagine Amandil talking to his great-great-great-children:

"So, Elendil cut down Sauron, Isildur nicked the ring, and you..."

"I got drowned." Loser!

He's obviously suicidal. He had no hope of getting to Valinor. He can't want to be on this show. Let's give him what he wants...

There. I've now uttered nine Sauce-worthy idiocies, er, I mean, cogent arguments.

Let's see if they bring home the votes...

[Anguirel]

Did it occur to you that this may be because he is so dull that there is very little else to say about him?


All of the above was wilful stupidity and misinterpretation and repetition ad nauseam and I disdain to reply to it. But this, I will address.

Saucie, earlier on you defended Ohtar, who has about one line of description in Canon. Your condemnation of Elrond was based on the fact that this shouldn't be about patting high-profile Tolkien characters on the back endlessly. This proves that you lack-as has been shown so often before-a grain of consistency.

As it happens, Celeborn is in my view one of those rare characters who is too cool to interfere with the plot in some flashy manner, but whose qualities on an unbiased reading are clear.

To use an RPG analogy, he's an extremely well-written cameo appearance...

But back to Amandil.

Elu says he could have preserved the Hope for the West by reaching the Valar. Nonsense, old chap, you're deluding yourself. We ought to tell Anarion

Full fathom five thy (grand)father lies
Those are pearls that were his eyes

It's fifty miles from Aberdour, and fifty fathoms deep...drown'd? Indeed he is!

But anyway...the Dunedain weren't, as far as I can tell, the hope for the West. They spelt doom to its native inhabitants whom they subjugated and oppressed with unrightful lordships. They caused endless trouble with their Ring-banditry. If Anarion encouraged their proto-colonialism, he should be punished...

[lord of dor-lomin]

+ +Fangorn
An ent as a Survivor champ? No way. They just aren't active enough in events. They don't endlessly oppose evil. They don't send representatives to councils. They just hang out in the woods. Most of them turn into trees, and even the ents that stay "entish" lead the same sort of active life and are as interesting and charming as a pile of firewood.

I mean, honestly, Treebeard said he spent large quantities of time simply "breathing"! Can we really reward someone who displays this level of absolute apathy and laziness in life?

As far as I can tell, Treebeard's primary accomplishment during the 2nd Age was staying alive, and that was probably a struggle. I'm sure there were times where he took so long to raise his bowl of food to his mouth that he had almost shrivelled up by the time it arrived.

[Formendacil]

Okay, I never intended to leave this this late! I just… forgot. I don’t sleep in until 3:30!

Anyway, to analyze the votes:

I may retract this later, depending on whichever way my mood is violently swinging, but I'd like to start off today with a vote for:

+ + Fangorn

A: Because I want revenge for the ousting of Fimbrethil, and all the "ooh poor lovelorn Treebeard, left by a coldhearted woman" arguments that did said ousting.

B: Because he never really did anything interesting, besides destroying Isengard. Which was, okay, pretty cool, but it was one thing done in a vastly long lifetime. Most of the time he just stood around harooming and writing imitations of Elven poetry.

COUNTED for reason B: direct reference to Fangorn’s long life, lack of prominent happenings, use of poetry, and “harooming”.

++CELEBRIANp

for being such a neglectful wife and mother! She's really just like that Fimbrethil, actually, only that she had these Orc-inflicted wounds for an excuse. Valid perhaps, but that's not the point!

Besides, Elrond needs someone to console him.

COUNTED- for direct reference to her ork wounds and subsequent abandonment of Middle-Earth.

Which leads me to direct my gaze on Celeborn once more.

Now, the hen-pecked husband thing does elicit some sympathy from me for him. But, really, he was supposed to be the wisest Elf in Middle-earth during the Third Age. If that was the case, then surely he could have stood up for himself a bit better.

And what did he actually achieve?

In the Second and Third Ages, he ruled over Lothlorien with Galadriel. He is said to be Lord of that realm. Yet it is clear who wore the trousers in that relationship. It was primarily Galadriel's power, and the power of her Ring, which maintained Lorien's defences. And it was she who, in reality, ruled there.

He is said to have been the wisest of all Elves. Yet, even a cursory glance at the Lothlorien chapters of LotR will reveal that Galadriel was by far the wiser of the two.

He is said to have been the greatest giver of gifts. Yet it was Galadriel who bestowed the most useful gifts on the Fellowship.

He commanded the army that conquered Dol Guldur. Yet it was Galadriel who destroyed its walls, thus rendering its defences ineffective.

Let's face it, Celeborn would have been nothing without Galadriel. And all that he did achieve relied heavily on her. As they are now in different tribes, this is becoming painfully and embarassingly apparent on the show. For trying to gain fame, notoriety and power through his wife's endeavours and not through his own efforts, I vote:

+ + CELEBORN

COUNTED- for a complete, if biased, recounting of Celeborn’s biography and relationship to Galadriel.

+ + Galadriel
Let's face it, even for Middle-earth elves she's downright scary and daunting. And she probably goes on endlessly about the good old days in Aman, how she was considered the cat's meow (not Beruthiel's lot) by the valar, how she wouldn't let Feanor have any strands of her hair, yadda, yadda, yadda. And if she goes it could unleash the brilliant leader (?????) inside Celeborn.

COUNTED- albeit reluctantly. “For Middle-Earth Elves she’s downright scary” doesn’t seem backed by Tolkien- although it’s possible to build a case. “Going on endless about Aman and the Cat’s Meow” seems completely count to the portrait of Galadriel painted by Tolkien, but she does long for it in “Farewell to Lórien”. Queen Berúthiel is completely inadmissible- it does not reference Galadriel at all. Galadriel never goes on about Fëanor and her hair- that we are shown- nor is there a case for her leaving making a difference with Celeborn.

Again, counted reluctantly, on the tenuous basis of the first two lines.

++AMANDIL has had his time, and lasted quite as long as he would wish-let him depart with honour and give his grandson, the estimable younger son Anarion of Gondor, opportunity to flourish as a King.

Ermm…

Anguirel, your vote is NOT COUNTED,

For reason that “He has had his time” is nonsensical in a game that takes characters from across the generations, and that anything to do with Anárion has naught to do with Amandail.

I think it's finally time for Celeborn to go. He's not a particularly interesting character and lives perpetually in the shadow of Galadriel. I can't remember anything that he did by himself of his own volition without her. He seems rather detached from most proceedings. It makes one wonder just what he did after Galadriel passed into the West. He doesn't seem terribly capable of much on his own.

++Celeborn

COUNTED- on the basis that Celeborn IS, in Tolkien’s works, pretty much always mentioned in conjunction with his wife Galadriel.

Every time the cameras come to the Line of Luthien Tribe, Amandil's not even there. He's down in the bay, trying to build yet another funny little ship. He's just yearning to leave, you can see it in his eyes, poor man. Let him leave this Hither Shore, or at least try.

++AMANDIL

COUNTED- on the basis that Amandil WAS a sailor, and he DID try to leave “this Hither Shore”.

++AMANDIL

Amandil has no interest in being here. His task is to sail into the West and chat with the Valar (if they'll let him).

Let's add some more to this...

I have no problem with his trip. In fact, I think it was a noble effort. But ill-advised. I can't come up with any better solution if he wanted to get Numenor back in the Valar's good graces, but it wouldn't do any good for the real problem, which was Sauron working on Ar-Pharazon and Ar-Pharazon's pride. Probably should have just tried to help the remaining Faithful in Numenor and left for Middle-earth with Elendil and Co.

Direct references to Amandil’s attempted journey to Valinor. Perhaps not a reason for leaving a game, but used in that context.

COUNTED.

...And I return. To find Elrond gone (yay) and Suaron also (???). Amandil you say? For all we know Amandil could have made the difference between the nine ships of Elendil escaping or the Dunedain and the Hope for the West being swallowed into a toilet bowel.

++Celeborn

In defense of Amandil

EDIT: Right, Diamond18. So: Celeborn, although he may have seemed like Galadriel's shadow, really wanted her to get more attention. That way, he could just sit back and eat lembas while she did all the hard work (cooking, cleaning, and saving Lorien and the War)

Lots of Tolkien referenced here… but nothing to do with Celeborn, except some speculations that don’t seem to have a grounding in anything Tolkien wrote. NOT COUNTED.

Amandil's a sailor, which casts grave doubts on his masculinity.

His family are all useless, except Anarion.

He doesn't have any decent swords.

His title is stupid. Andunie? Sounds like a laxative.

And Amandil sounds like Amanda. Girly. Ha. Nyah.

Imagine Amandil talking to his great-great-great-children:

"So, Elendil cut down Sauron, Isildur nicked the ring, and you..."

"I got drowned." Loser!

He's obviously suicidal. He had no hope of getting to Valinor. He can't want to be on this show. Let's give him what he wants...

Several biased, somewhat silly, but still Tolkien-grounded arguments. Anguirel’s vote is now COUNTED (see up).


+ +Fangorn
An ent as a Survivor champ? No way. They just aren't active enough in events. They don't endlessly oppose evil. They don't send representatives to councils. They just hang out in the woods. Most of them turn into trees, and even the ents that stay "entish" lead the same sort of active life and are as interesting and charming as a pile of firewood.

I mean, honestly, Treebeard said he spent large quantities of time simply "breathing"! Can we really reward someone who displays this level of absolute apathy and laziness in life?

As far as I can tell, Treebeard's primary accomplishment during the 2nd Age was staying alive, and that was probably a struggle. I'm sure there were times where he took so long to raise his bowl of food to his mouth that he had almost shrivelled up by the time it arrived.

Several references to general Entish traits, and a direct reference to Treebeards enjoyment of “just breathing”.

COUNTED.

There we are. The Day is done. Any votes between this and the offical count post will be accounted with tomorrow’s total.

[Formendacil]

The sixteenth day of voting was not as noisy as some previously, suffering from "the Weekend Syndrome". The voting fell as follows:

Celebrían: I
Galadriel: I

Fangorn: II
Celeborn: II

Amandil: III

Had Lhuna stuck to her guns, and voted Celeborn, he'd have been gone in a double-lynching. However, she didn't, and we also didn't have an army of anti-Celeborn 'Downers ride in on Pink Oliphaunts, so he survives another day. 'Tis Amandil who must "sail west".

HOUSEKEEPING:

This next day should be very close to 24 hours in duration. If that isn't possible, I'll let it change on the longer side.

Those remaining:

Tribe of the Line of Lúthien:
Anárion
Elros Tar-Minyatur
Tar-Míriel

Tribe of the "Endorians":
Celeborn
Círdan
Celebrían
Narvi
Fangorn

Tribe of the Rest:
The Witch-king
Celebrimbor
Ohtar
Galadriel

Day 17 begins now. Vote away!

[Celuien]

++OHTAR

Of the Lord of the Rings Code:

Obviously, by naming this character Ohtar, Tolkien was trying to tell us that Ohtar's role could be filled by any other character. This is clearly demonstrated by the fact that substituing an 'e' for the 'a' in his name and reversing the h with the t changes Ohtar to Other. The e to a substitution is the correct interpretation since the 'a' is the second vowel in Othar and e is the second vowel in the alphabet.

If that doesn't convince you, consider the anagram, Ho! Rat! formed by his name. Do we want a skulking rat to win Survivor?

And finally, lest my vote be discounted, I'll repeat my earlier reasoning that Othar is not a significant enough character to win Survivor.

[Elu Ancalime]

++Ohtar
As a recall from Unfinished Tales, Ohtar is afraid of being cowardly. I think that speaks for itself, right?
________
Silversurfer vaporizer (http://vaporizers.net/silver-surfer-vaporizer)

[Lhunardawen]

Had Lhuna stuck to her guns, and voted Celeborn, he'd have been gone in a double-lynching. However, she didn't, and we also didn't have an army of anti-Celeborn 'Downers ride in on Pink Oliphaunts, so he survives another day. 'Tis Amandil who must "sail west".Why do these people have to see the sense in voting against him so late? :p Unfortunately, I've been swayed...


Lhuna, never vote Celeborn again and I'll...smile. Savvee? *sigh* You really know how to manipulate people.

Okay, so no more votes against *ehem* Celeborn...now will you join me in getting rid of Celebrían? I would suppose you'll have no other reason to keep her around other than her being Celeborn's daughter, if that's even a reason enough.

[Anguirel]

I can't vote Celebrian-she has silver hair. :)

Ha! Ha! The pact is sealed!

++OHTAR-an office boy who shouldn't be carrying dangerous sharp things...

[Lhunardawen]

What the...?!

Pfft. Fine.

++CELEBRIAN

for having silver hair, not doing anything substantial in Middle-earth other than giving birth to a half-Man and a half-Elf, getting herself caught and tortured, then sailing to the West because she couldn't take life anymore. What a coward.

Everyone else vote Celeborn! :p

[The Saucepan Man]

phantom, you're a fine dictator, but like most such you don't understand the significance of the insignificant. Nor the insignificance of the significant.

Citizens of Arda, eject Sauron and let the minor characters have their day...You accuse me of hypocrisy and inconsistency in defending the minor characters and voting for Celeborn (hardly a minor character). And yet, having made the statement above two days ago, you now see fit to cast your vote for Ohtar, possibly the most minor character of all those remaining. Talk about the pot calling the saucepan black ... ;)

Elves make up nearly half of the remaining contestants. The "Endorian" tribe is the strongest tribe. Ergo, an Elf from the Endorian tribe must go. Of the three, Celeborn is the least extraordinary. Cirdan, while absenting himself from the affairs of Middle-earth for large parts of the First, Second and Third Ages was at least an extraordinary shipwright. Celebrian suffered intense torture at the hands of Orcs, and so deserves our sympathy. Celeborn did nothing which any other Elf of similar standing could not have achieved. As I have established previously, his claims to be the wisest Elf and greatest giver of gifts were vastly over-inflated. He relies solely on his wife for his renown and for his place in Middle-earth legend. And he even ensured that history was re-written in an attempt to ensure that his embarassing true name would remain hidden. Surely we can countenance the presence of this fraudulent upstart on the island no longer.

+ + TELEPORNO

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Maybe I should re-honour my alliance with Anguirel . . .

++Ohtar

(Not his real name . . . Why? Is his real name something ugly, something downright repulsive? 'Oh, look, there's [name deleted], son of an Orc!' he must have been taunted while yet a youth.

Why give him a hard-to-pronounce name, for crying out loud? He might have well been named 'Random Númenórean # 72 for all we care.)

If that's not Tolkien-based, I'll implore the Mod God of Ened-in-Nowhere to strike you down, Formendaga. :p

[Firefoot]

Not Ohtar. :( Don't ask me why, exactly, but I rather like the chap.

++Celeborn

I already explained this yesterday. He's just not as important as people make him sound; Galadriel would get on just as well without him. He doesn't bring anything to the table.

[Formendacil]

++OHTAR

Of the Lord of the Rings Code:

Obviously, by naming this character Ohtar, Tolkien was trying to tell us that Ohtar's role could be filled by any other character. This is clearly demonstrated by the fact that substituing an 'e' for the 'a' in his name and reversing the h with the t changes Ohtar to Other. The e to a substitution is the correct interpretation since the 'a' is the second vowel in Othar and e is the second vowel in the alphabet.

If that doesn't convince you, consider the anagram, Ho! Rat! formed by his name. Do we want a skulking rat to win Survivor?

And finally, lest my vote be discounted, I'll repeat my earlier reasoning that Othar is not a significant enough character to win Survivor.

COUNTED- due to a direct reference to Ohtar’s general insignificance as a character in the Canon.

The anagram, though not technically Tolkien-based, is a bit of wordplay, and I’m sure the good professor would approve. :p

++Ohtar
As a recall from Unfinished Tales, Ohtar is afraid of being cowardly. I think that speaks for itself, right?

Can’t recall the text myself, but I think Elu’s right. Not sure if that constitutes an argument one way or another, but it’s Tolkien-based. COUNTED.

++OHTAR-an office boy who shouldn't be carrying dangerous sharp things...

COUNTED- barely, for sarcastic referencing of Ohtar’s status as a Squire, and for his delivery of the Shards of Narsil to Rivendell.

++CELEBRIAN

for having silver hair, not doing anything substantial in Middle-earth other than giving birth to a half-Man and a half-Elf, getting herself caught and tortured, then sailing to the West because she couldn't take life anymore. What a coward.

Recounts (essentially) all of Celebrían’s known history, with a negative bias. COUNTED

Celeborn did nothing which any other Elf of similar standing could not have achieved. As I have established previously, his claims to be the wisest Elf and greatest giver of gifts were vastly over-inflated. He relies solely on his wife for his renown and for his place in Middle-earth legend. And he even ensured that history was re-written in an attempt to ensure that his embarassing true name would remain hidden. Surely we can countenance the presence of this fraudulent upstart on the island no longer.

+ + TELEPORNO
COUNTED, for the same reason’s as Lhuna’s vote.

++Ohtar

(Not his real name . . . Why? Is his real name something ugly, something downright repulsive? 'Oh, look, there's [name deleted], son of an Orc!' he must have been taunted while yet a youth.

Why give him a hard-to-pronounce name, for crying out loud? He might have well been named 'Random Númenórean # 72 for all we care.)

COUNTED- for referencing the fact that Tolkien states that Ohtar was probably not Ohtar’s name. It means, roughly Squire/Knight, and was more properly his title. We do not know “Ohtar”’s name.

++Celeborn

I already explained this yesterday. He's just not as important as people make him sound; Galadriel would get on just as well without him. He doesn't bring anything to the table.

COUNTED- since I remember Firefoot’s argument of yesterday.

Hmm… slow day here at the office- and I let things run late too.

[Formendacil]

The seveneenth day of voting was dead- really dead. And not just in the sense that it purports to take place in Arda Envinyanta (Arda Remade) or in the sense that it takes place on the 'Downs. No, it was just... dead. The voting, such as it was, fell as follows:

Celebrían: I

Celeborn: II

Ohtar: IIII

Little known and hiding behind an assumed alias, it was only a matter of time before Ohtar was outed. 'twas only fitting, perhaps, that such a little known man fell by so few votes.

HOUSEKEEPING:

This next day should be very close to 24 hours in duration. If that isn't possible, I'll let it change on the longer side.

Those remaining:

Tribe of the Line of Lúthien:
Anárion
Elros Tar-Minyatur
Tar-Míriel

Tribe of the "Endorians":
Celeborn
Círdan
Celebrían
Narvi
Fangorn

Tribe of the Rest:
The Witch-king
Celebrimbor
Galadriel

Day 18 begins now. Vote away!

[Anguirel]

++ELROS TAR-MINYATUR

It's been proven by popular consent he's the brother of a cissy. So he's probably a cissy himself. Which would explain why he never did anything interesting, like fighting wars or worshipping Melkor...

[Diamond18]

Hmm... to vote or not vote today. I'm a little torn, because mainly I would like to put Ang out of his misery and remove Celeborn from the game, because day after day this constant gnawing at Saucey's ankles about it is really bordering on sad. Yet, voting for Celeborn would only give cause for Ang to gnaw at my ankles about it, which increases the sadness of the whole situtation. Saucey, in the meantime, no doubt laughs with maniacal glee as he posts here with the sole intent of driving Ang batty and causing him to gnaw at people's ankles. All in defense of Celeborn, who honestly isn't great enough to merit such prolonged bickering. Sure, he was a good supportive husband, probably the submissive type, quite likely my sort of guy. But do those types usually win Survivor?

But, even though I think that getting rid of Celeborn because he's taking up way too much space in the minds and efforts of players is a good reason to vote for him, it's not Tolkien based and is therefore a waste of a vote.

Well, right now I'm goin to vote again for

+ + Treebead

My previous points about him the last time I voted still apply.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Cidan

In the First and Third Ages the bearded one
does important things, but for the Second
Age he's just not all that important.

Btw, does he like a nice trimmed
beard or the natural, older statesman look?

[Celuien]

++CIRDAN
Reasons given here. (http://forums.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=453124&postcount=478)

I feel sorry for Elros, although I liked his wiser sibling more.

[Eonwe]

It's been proven by popular consent he's the brother of a cissy. So he's probably a cissy himself. Which would explain why he never did anything interesting, like fighting wars or worshipping Melkor...

So Hector, obviously, is a pansy because Paris is. The absolutely does not follow. And I don't have anything against not being uninteresting. Tolkien was all about the uninteresting, stalwart characters: think Treebeard, Samwise Gamgee and his Gaffer, Bilbo, Butterburr, and a host of others.

Not to mention Elrond is anything but a sissy...considering that without him, his wise counse, and his wisdom in building a refuge and bastion, the Kindly West would have fallen long before the time of Bilgo and Frodo.

I say we vote for Celebrian. I now recant my original position, and take up the opposite and equally valid argument that, as there is nothing important ever told about her, she is not worthy of staying in the running. Sure, she porduced offspring that reunited the long-sundered branches of the Dunedian, and she was the daughter of Galadriel. But she never did anything cool herself.

[Formendacil]

If the voters thought to prolong the proceedings by avoiding the vote on Day Eighteen, they were wrong. With relentless, inexorable force, the Moderator prepared for another day's eviction. The voting, such as it was, fell as follows:

Treebeard: I
Elros Tar-Minyatur: I

Círdan: II

Like the gentleman he was, Círdan departed from the game without a fuss...

HOUSEKEEPING:

In case no one's noticed, I didn't analyse the votes publicly. All of them were valid, in any case.

Those remaining:

Tribe of the Line of Lúthien:
Anárion
Elros Tar-Minyatur
Tar-Míriel

Tribe of the "Endorians":
Celeborn
Celebrían
Narvi
Fangorn

Tribe of the Rest:
The Witch-king
Celebrimbor
Galadriel

...who are now being shuffled into two remaining tribes:

Tribe of Those Born Immortal:
Celeborn
Galadriel
Celebrían
Celebrimbor
Fangorn

Tribe of Those Born Mortal:
Elros Tar-Minyatur
Tar-Míriel
Anárion
The Witch-king
Narvi

Day 19 begins now. Vote away!

[Diamond18]

I think the vote is suffering from "Werewolf Syndrome", Form. Everyone's been so wrapped up in the two WW games we've been a little distracted from Survivor. :)

+ + Fangorn

Frankly, I'm too lazy at the moment to build a case against anyone else. :rolleyes: So, as my reasons from the last two times still apply, I'm voting Treebeard again.

[Firefoot]

++Treebeard

For being annoyingly slow and boring. It's a wonder the Ents get anything done at all with someone like him for a leader. Sure they may have all the time in the world, but most people don't. Besides, the Entwives must have left for a reason, probably because they got so bored with their dull husbands. And if the Entwives couldn't even stand them...

He just doesn't seem to do much ever. Sure, he has all the time in the world, but so do Elves, and you don't see them just wasting their lives away.

[Formendacil]

I think the vote is suffering from "Werewolf Syndrome", Form. Everyone's been so wrapped up in the two WW games we've been a little distracted from Survivor. :)

Sad, but probably true...

Still, it could make for some interesting evictions, with the big voting blocks all busy...

[Gil-Galad]

++Celebrían


A.K.A.


Little Miss weakling! honestly? would you run away if a couple orcs that were picnicing nearby and saw a elf girl wandering the mountain-tops and decided to invite you in a ruffish-eat-your-had-way?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Celebrimbor

Stop the Ring madness!

[Lalaith]

++Fangorn

For alienating the ent-wives and thus dooming his own species.

[Celuien]

I don't see Eomer here. Here's my chance, though I'll probably pay for it later.

++FANGORN

Now, there's a difference between not being hasty and being painfully, terribly slow. Fangorn falls on the painfully slow end of the spectrum. Despite the attacks on the forest by Saruman and his creatures, he never would have done a thing about it if not for Merry and Pippin's arrival. Ostensibly, his job was to guard the forest from non-plant life. But it was only the persuasion of the definitely non-plant Hobbits that finally got him to do his job. What kind of steward is that? Yavanna would be very disappointed, I think.

Oh, and I can't support a Fan of the Gorn (http://www.phils-startrek.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/pictures/original/gorn.jpg). I stand with Kirk. :p

[the phantom]

It looks like we might finally be rid of the great leafy bore. It's about time.

I voted for him a few pages ago. Here's what I said-
This is what Treebeard said to Merry and Pippin in the chapter entitled "Treebeard"-
But if I had seen you, before I heard your voices- I liked them: nice little voices; they reminded me of something I cannot remember- if I had seen you before I heard you, I should have just trodden on you, taking you for little Orcs, and found out my mistake afterwards.
The only reason Treebeard didn't squash Merry and Pippin immediately was that he thought their voices were cute. That doesn't sound very nice to me.
-----------------------------------
I hate people who take to long to get to the point, and so I am very much anti-ent to begin with. And then consider, how much good do ents really do? Except for once every few thousand years they don't do anything of value. And they aren't even decent enough chaps to travel with their wives, but instead they just let them wander off to meet their fate alone.

+ + Treebeard

[Diamond18]

Mwah ha ha ha. *stokes the flames for a nice Entfire* Sorry, Eomer ol' chap....

[the phantom]

Mwah ha ha ha. *stokes the flames for a nice Entfire*
Heh heh... How much you want to bet he's made from extremely slow burning wood?

[Formendacil]

OFFICIAL NOTICE OF LENGTHENED DAY:

Due to the Barrow-downs having been down these past few hours, this Day will remain open to voting for a goodly number of hours, probably in the are of 15-20, until such time as I can end it.

~Michael A. Joosten - Moderator~

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Don't worry Treebeard, I still love you.

He could defeat anyone on that list in a fight. All he needs to do is step on them.

Let the Ent depart then; but let the ants fight among themselves for this dainty.

[Lhunardawen]

Senseless, but hey!

++CELEBRIAN

for reasons already stated because really, what else is there to say against her?

For Treebeard and Eomer of the Rohirrim!

[Formendacil]

Prolonged due to the 'Downs being down, Day nineteen was nonetheless far from being near to winning "Longest Day Ever" of Survivor: The Second Age. The voting, such as it was, fell as follows:

Celebrimbor: I

Celebrían: II

Fangorn (Treebeard): IIIII

Much like his speech, the voters thought that Fangorn had gone on far too long...

HOUSEKEEPING:

In case no one's noticed, I didn't analyse the votes publicly. All of them were valid, in any event.

Those remaining:

Tribe of Those Born Immortal:
Celeborn
Galadriel
Celebrían
Celebrimbor

Tribe of Those Born Mortal:
Elros Tar-Minyatur
Tar-Míriel
Anárion
The Witch-king
Narvi

Day 20 begins now, with the Mortal tribe one up on the Immortal tribe. Vote away!

[Lhunardawen]

For the sake of equality, I'll be getting off Celebrian's case for a while. Unless someone joins the bandwagon...

++NARVI

Aside from being the draw-er of those signs on the puzzling door into Moria that wasted a good few hours of the Fellowship's time, who is he?

[Firefoot]

++Celeborn

How is this guy still around? As stated earlier in much greater detail, he lives in Galadriel's shadow and is apparently incapable of independent thought. Bad traits in an Elf lord.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

+ + Narvi

So the best he and his elf buddy could come up
with for a password was "Friend"? Let's face
it, either of these two wouldn't even edge out Hama as
a doorwarden.

[Gil-Galad]

aye i would have to go with ++Narvi as well

[Lalaith]

++ELROS

Because he's claiming to have been born mortal and he wasn't. He chose mortality...and also what I said earlier about keeping his wife hidden away in the kitchen.

[Formendacil]

++ELROS

Because he's claiming to have been born mortal and he wasn't. He chose mortality...and also what I said earlier about keeping his wife hidden away in the kitchen.

I know nothing of kitchens and the wives stored therein, but Tolkien's verdict is, in fact, that Elros was born mortal.

Were it not for the special grace of choosing granted to Eärendil, Elwing, and their children, they would all have died- mortal. Tolkien states in one of the later volumes of the HoME that any half-Elf would, by default, have been mortal. The special grace by which Eärendil, Elwing, and Elrond began Elven was just that- special grace.

Hence, Dior, Eluchíl, and Eluréd- and the children of Mithrellas (ie. the first prince of Dol Amroth) were all... Mortal.

[Lalaith]

Oh goodness me, I never should have opened up the Peredhil can of worms....you're the boss, Formy.

[Anguirel]

++ELROS TAR-MINYATUR

For being not so much a King of Numenor...as a worm in a can. Fie and shame upon him, starter of barren discussions!

For obviously failing his foster-father Maglor's vision of doomed romance by being mortal, wealthy and comfortable.

For dying of old age, not foeman's blade.

And for living on the charity of the tyrannical Valar.

This will be my last vote in Survivor for some time as the Latin lands call. Forward Celeborn, worthy victor and independent Elf Lord!

[Diamond18]

2 for Narvi, 2 for Elros, and 1 for Celeborn.

Celeborn, while possessing many fine traits I am sure, took a back seat to Galadriel. Even a cursory glance of Tolkien's works show that. Therefore, there is no way he should outlast Galadriel in the game. I'm not much into the politics of major characters versus minor characters -- but really if Celeborn isn't going to win the whole thing (and he shouldn't), I see no reason to keep prolonging the discussion about him. We all know he can't beat Galadriel so let's not put ourselves through the pain of forcing a vote-off between the two of them.

+ + Celeborn

[Celuien]

No! I won't stand by while Celeborn is attacked! :mad:

++ELROS

For choosing mortality and running off to Numenor to live off the Valar.

[Elu Ancalime]

++Narvi

Perhaps the least important of the dwarves known only for smithy. Telchar overshadowed him, and Gamil Ziriak. Also, If he made the Doors of Moria, did he not realize what he did? He revealed the name of DUrin to anypasserbyer, and he was quick to jump on the fact that his home was a black pit. Narvi spread a bad image of the Longbeards, being hasty and open.

Elros lived to be 500. He was the greatest and most benevolent of all the Kings of Numenore, the grandest kingdom of Men. He has Elvish and divine Maia blood. How could you vote against him?
________
Ford Model B (1904) History (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_Model_B_(1904))

[Lhunardawen]

This will be my last vote in Survivor for some time as the Latin lands call. Forward Celeborn, worthy victor and independent Elf Lord!

Hehehehehe... *evil grin*

When the cat is away, daga will play. :p

[Firefoot]

Well, Elros was the other chap I was considering voting for today, and being that he's gaining a lot more support than Celeborn...

--Celeborn
++Elros

About the only thing Elros has going for him is a cool name (Tar-Minyatur - I do rather like that...). Other than that, he's not that interesting. And he causes his brother a great deal of grief by choosing mortality. Not very loving. Other than that, he did remarkably little except for live for a really long time. If you look him up in the Numenorean kings chapter in UT, that's about all it says about him. Obviously he didn't do anything worthy of winning Survivor.

[Diamond18]

No! I won't stand by while Celeborn is attacked! :mad:

You know, the longer you keep him in the game, the more likely it will be you are dooming him to a face-off with his wife for supremacy, and that could get ugly. For him. :D

However, as this round seems to be coming down between Elros and Narvi, if I want to actually be involved I'm going to have to change my vote.

- - Celeborn

+ + Narvi

Someone else brought this up already, but I must agree -- what kind of security is "Speak 'Friend' and Enter"? All you have to do is read the sign out loud in Elvish and voila, you can get in! That's about as good as writing, "The password is Friend. Say it. Frrrriiiieeeeend" above the door. So what if the door was created in "friendlier" times... when exactly in Middle-earth history was it ever safe to have such an easy door guard?

[Firefoot]

Look at it this way: who is going to attack them that way anyway? Orcs, but they aren't going to be able to read the Elvish. Any other attackers (still not sure who) probably wouldn't even get that far before they were noticed.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I side with my sister.

++Narvi

For being a non-entity. Seriously, we wouldn't even have heard of him if he hadn't written his name on that blasted door.

[Formendacil]

This Day will be twice as long as normal due to:

A.) Laziness of the Moderator

B.) To attract more votes per day.

Please note, Reason B. is an excuse for Reason A.

[Lhunardawen]

Your honesty is astounding, Moderadacil.

[Lalaith]

Oh, btw, to avoid vote-voiding, my wife-kitchen reference was actually the reason I gave for voting off Elendil in post 457. But the reasoning still holds as we are never told the name of Elros' wife....
There was clearly something weird going on in that family. The eldest boy, born to be king, abdicates instead. The only girl is called "daughter of twilight", and that's all we know about her. We don't know much about the two younger boys, either. I think Elros got very depressed by his decision to be mortal and infected his children with his gloom.

[The Saucepan Man]

There are (I think) currently 6 votes for Narvi and 4 votes for Elros, although Gil-Galad’s vote for Narvi is questionable, to put it mildly.

Anyone else fancy altering the dull way this day is going and changing (or changing back) their vote to Celeborn? I’ll kick us off.

+ + CELEBORN

Previous reasoning applies.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Yep. Celeborn is rather dull, no match for girl elves.

- - Narvi

+ + Celeborn

[Diamond18]

I don't know, Sauce. Even if I change my vote back to Celeborn, that will only increase him to 3 votes and reduce Narvi to 4 (possibly 3 considering Gil's vote). Whereas Elros has 4. As I see it, such a move on my part at this point would be just as useful as changing my vote to Elros.

[The Saucepan Man]

As I see it, such a move on my part at this point would be just as useful as changing my vote to Elros.Only if no one else follows. But if you (like the admirable Tuor) lead the way, others will surely follow.

What we need here is leadership, a quality in which Celeborn, skulking pathetically behind his wife, is sadly lacking ... :D

[Diamond18]

Well, I guess it wouldn't hurt. I feel pretty neutral between Narvi and Elros, so if Elros goes instead of Narvi because of this, it's not that big a deal. Sorry for all the changing, Form, but really, you brought it on yourself... :D

- - Narvi

+ + Celeborn

For reasons stated the first time I vote for him toDay.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Due to the simplicity of the Moria door, I vote

++Narvi.

It worked on the Fellowship, but people weren't as dumb when it was made.

[Gil-Galad]

well narvi was just a dwarf that tried to make the fame in his door but failed when he really needed a door to keep the Balrog out

[Formendacil]

Day twenty was double the normal day's length, and was a contest mainly between Narvi, Elros, and - yet again - Celeborn. The voting, such as it was, fell as follows:

Celeborn: III

Elros Tar-Minyatur: IIII

Narvi: IIIII I

And so the Dwarves were removed from the running in the championship for Survivor: The Second Age.

HOUSEKEEPING:

Yes, I didn't analyse the votes publicly. Partly, I'm lazy (it's been a long week...) but also in large part because people are mostly voting under the parameters I requested. Since the "rule" was never intended to be more than a prod in that direction, I have dispense with it for the TIME BEING.

Please note that this is subject to change at any time.

Those remaining:

Tribe of Those Born Immortal:
Celeborn
Galadriel
Celebrían
Celebrimbor

Tribe of Those Born Mortal:
Elros Tar-Minyatur
Tar-Míriel
Anárion
The Witch-king

Day 21 begins now, with the tribes neck-and-neck. Vote away!

[The 1,000 Reader]

++Celeborn.

At least Elros ruled Numenor. Celeborn was the pet of his wife.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I realised that he must go, for the sake of my strategy.

++Celeborn

He was a shadow.

First Age: Stayed in Doriath, did nothing.

Second Age: Roamed around, built a little Elven enclave (big deal, even Legolas's grandpa got to do that), did little else.

Third Age: Stayed in his little Elven enclave until the victory has been won at Mt. Doom. Then he went and 'ruled' Rivendell after the departure of most of the greater ones.

He must go, and go now!

[The Saucepan Man]

Aye, 'tis time that Celeborn finally packed his bags.

+ + CELEBORN

Reasons? Surely you know my reasons by now. I have enumerated them numerously enough.

In summary, a poor specimen of Elven Lordhood, who relied almost entirely on his wife for his reputation and his power.

[Celuien]

Really, when will you learn that votes for Celeborn will not be tolerated? :p ;)

++Tar-Míriel

What kind of role model princess allows herself to be forced into marriage by and with her scheming, rotten cousin? Should have sent the no-good Pharazôn packing and ruled as Queen, as she could have done. Yes, it might have caused civil war, but wouldn't that be preferable to letting Pharazôn take over and lead Númenor to destruction? At least they might have had a chance under a good Queen.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Tar-Miriel

A civil war, nasty as it would have been, would seem
to have been as necessary as the American Civil War
was, and (arguably) the English Civil War. And who
knows, she might have at least escaped to Middle-earth
and been the founder of Gondor/Arnor and Company.
But she was obviously no Erendis, Galadriel,
Eowyn, etc.

[Diamond18]

+ + Celeborn

As previously stated, he always took a back seat to his wife, therefore if it's allowed to come down as a vote between Celeborn and Galadriel, no one in their right mind could possibly vote Galadriel off instead. So spare Celeborn the embarressment of losing a head-to-head with his wife and vote him off now, before we get to that sad, ugly point.

[Celuien]

As previously stated, he always took a back seat to his wife, therefore if it's allowed to come down as a vote between Celeborn and Galadriel, no one in their right mind could possibly vote Galadriel off instead.
Of course I could. And I refuse to admit that I'm not in my right mind. Umm. Right...

It comes down to the fact that Celeborn is nicer than Galadriel. Think about it. Who came to Middle-earth seeking subjects to rule? Galadriel. She's power hungry, and we all know that's not a good thing.

I further hypothesize that Celeborn realized Galadriel's tendencies and worked from behind the scenes to keep her dark side in check. All while cleverly not becoming prominent and power hungry himself. Why, Celeborn is a genius. Pure and simple. How could anyone not like him? Other than Sauce, who has already been proven insane by his constant opposition to the noble Lord of Lorien anyway. ;)

[Diamond18]

Now, now, there's no shame in being an Insane Celeborn Fangirl/boy. I am sure you and Ang will defend him to the death. Your loyalty is admirable.

But the rest of us will outnumber you sooner or later. :D

[Celuien]

Now, now, there's no shame in being an Insane Celeborn Fangirl/boy. I am sure you and Ang will defend him to the death. Your loyalty is admirable.

But the rest of us will outnumber you sooner or later. :D

Alas, I fear it will be sooner. Ang recently mentioned not being able to vote for a while. Thus, I'm afraid that I've been left to attempt to carry out our thankless mission alone. :(

Or nearly so. Thank you, Tuor, for joining the Tar-Miriel campaign.

Allies of the Galadhrim! Friends of Old! Will you let Celeborn fall alone and unaided? No, it would be a disgrace, a blot upon Arda such has not been seen for many a weary age of this world. Hear my plea! Come to the defense of the noblest Elf of them all, the great Lord Celeborn, and usher in a new era of wisdom and enlightment on Second Age Survivor!

[Gil-Galad]

++ tar-Miriel


she could have handled herself better as queen...

[the phantom]

+ + Tar Miriel

What did she do?

1) She married her cousin. At least Turin didn't know when he married a relative. Tar Miriel knew and still did it.

2) She allowed her husband to fall under Sauron's spell. She should've been putting her husband under her spell.

3) She obviously wasn't too cozy with "The Faithful", otherwise she would've escaped from the island with them. So, it seems she wasn't hanging with the right crowd.

Hmmm... I can't find anything that Tar Miriel did that is worthy of any Survivor recognition. Why is she still here?

[Lalaith]

Oh, this is too much to be borne. Is it not enough that the fairest lady of Numenor was wronged, terribly, once, that you must wrong her again, now, and slur her memory?

Phantom, I seem to remember Ar-Pharazon was one of your favourites, wasn't he? You remember, the bloke who married his cousin by force?
So it's ok to force someone into incest, but not ok to be forced?

I suppose it was her fault for wearing her skirt too short, was it :rolleyes:

Like so many other heroes of Middle Earth, Tar-Miriel tried to fight against the forces of evil but failed, in particularly tragic circumstances. We can go some small way to recompense her here, on Survivor.
Celeborn...well...a decent enough chap but his little-Galadhrim tendencies, leading to the isolationist dwarf-hating policies of the Third Age, are already becoming apparent.
++CELEBORN

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Fools!

Did you think the fair Miríel consented to her marriage? It was forced upon her by an exceedingly chavunistic society!

If there was any fault to be laid on the 'good guys,' it should have been on his father. It was Tar-Palantir who erred, not the jewel-daughter. He it was who failed to give the Sceptre to his heiress before his death.

Think about it; Pharazôn, despite his arrogance, despite his control over a majority of Andor (i.e., the King's Men), didn't dare go against the holder of the Sceptre. But Tar-Palantir, in having failed to make her daughter Ruling Queen before Mandos beckoned to him, started the terrible events that happened thereafter.

I'm sure golden boy wouldn't have gone against a Ruling Queen. But seeing the ambiguity after the death of Palantir, he took advantage of it to get the Sceptre into his grubby hands. Incest was not beneath him in his quest to obtain power.

That is why I wanted him out even before Second Age Survivor started.

I say it again, this time bolded in all caps:

TAR-MIRÍEL'S FATHER WAS THE ONE WHO FAILED; DON'T BLAME THE POOR LADY FOR HER PARENT'S FOLLY!

If you vote for her, then you support everything demented that Tarkalion has done: His overweening pride, his evil ambition to be Lord of Arda, his marriage to someone against her will and his act of incest.

SAVE TAR-MIRÍEL!

Oh, and I want Gil-Galad's vote declared void. :cool:

[Lalaith]

Psst...Nilp, you need to vote for Celeborn...

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I already did. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=456263&postcount=675)

But thanks for the heads-up. :)

[Lhunardawen]

++CELEBoRn(IAN)

For reasons I've already stated, aeons ago.

And because Anguirel is away. Hush, okay? Tell him I voted for Celebrian and he's merely seeing an illusion if he thinks otherwise. :D

Save Tar-Miriel!

[Lalaith]

Whoops, sorry, Nilp, I thought that was part of yesterDay's voting.

[Celuien]

:(
Then is Celeborn doomed? Will no one else come to our aid?

[Diamond18]

It seems that unjustly besmirching the names of the female characters (Fimbrethil, Celebrian, Tar-Miriel) is the favorite passtime of a few players here. Unfortunately for them, their game is too obvious.

[Gil-Galad]

if my vote becomes void because i didn't think tar-Miriel handled herself as queen good enough then all the Celeborn votes for him being incompetent should be void too

[Diamond18]

Is this day going to end anytime soon, or are we going for a new record? :smokin:

[Formendacil]

Is this day going to end anytime soon, or are we going for a new record? :smokin:

Actually...

It's over as soon as this post is public.

Sorry, it's been a crazy weekend, with my brother's play. I barely had time last night to run off an insane Werewolf rant before hitting the hay (Yeah, I'm an Alberta redneck? Wanna talk ter mah chainsaw about it?).

Also, I will be counting all votes, doing no analysis. Sunday's a day of rest, you know.

In the future, so that I don't have to state this over, and over, and over...

Any day I don't analyze the votes, they are all counted.

That said, you've all been quite good of late with your voting. ToDay, both 1000 Reader and Gil-galad's vote are looking a bit iffy... but I'm not thinking through things far enough to decide whether or not they'd be legit.

[Formendacil]

Day Twenty-one was a two-person race, between Celeborn the Tall and Tar-Míriel of Númenor. The voting fell as follows:

Tar-Míriel: IIII

Celeborn: IIIII I

It took them Twenty-one days to do it, but in the end, the Anti-Celeborn League of such fame and notoriety in Survivor: The Lord of the Rings again achieved its goal, and Celeborn was cast forth from the game.

Those remaining:

Tribe of Those Born Immortal:
Galadriel
Celebrían
Celebrimbor

Tribe of Those Born Mortal:
Elros Tar-Minyatur
Tar-Míriel
Anárion
The Witch-king

Day 22 begins now, with the Mortal Tribe one up. Vote away!

Oh, and I'm predicting a Galadriel win. ;)

[Elu Ancalime]

++Celebr?an

She does nothing important in the Second age, and is not mentioned until she gets mugged; and so Celebrian is learned because of her faliure of the buddy system.
________
CHRYSLER J PLATFORM (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Chrysler_J_platform)

[The 1,000 Reader]

++Celebrian.

As mentioned before, Celebrian did nothing in particular, and being attacked isn't something of greatness. The other remaining people have at least accomplished something, from making a kingdom to stealing one.

[Eonwe]

++Witch-King

It follows that because Celebrian was not mentioned much in any histories, she is not all that important. I would have to agree with you on that point. She never ruled a realm, never fought in a great battle, never sat with the heads of state deciding great polocies. But I like her anyway. Almost because she didn't do any of that.

The Witch-King on the other hand, if fighting against all that the Second Age stands for: Sam Gamgee and the Gaffer, Bilbo writing verses by the fire, the Mountains, the Rule of Men, the Havens of Elves, the will of Manwe and Eru. I find that dispicable.

Celebrian is a perfect Second Ager: percisely because she is not "important".

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + The Witch-King

When the going got tough in Arnor, the W-K got going.
(running away! The wimp). :o

[JennyHallu]

++Witch-King

Celebrian was loved dearly by her husband and her children, and managed to survive while all those who accompanied her were slain. This speaks to me of a woman kind and true, with bravery that should be an inspiration to us all.

The Witch-King does not belong in such exalted company.

[Diamond18]

+ + The Witch King

The Witch King is evil. Need I say more?

[Lalaith]

Well, ideally, no. But I fear I do because I want this vote counted.

A silly man, swayed by something round and shiny.
(There, Form, that even followed the ancient rules of alliteration)
++WITCH KING

[Diamond18]

But, Lal, the fact of the W-K's evilness is supported by Tolkien's works. ;)

[Formendacil]

Looks like double-long days are the norm now...

I should have been on earlier, but parents and siblings being what they are, I wasn't.

And now I have to work.

And then I have to sleep.

And then I have to wake up, go in to the city, wait two hours for a checkup and come home.

So, yes, this day will be double-longish. Perhaps I should make that the standard. :p

[The 1,000 Reader]

Hold it people. This is survivor. It doesn't matter if your God or Satan, the goal is to live. Heck, the winner of the first survivor ever was an evil prick and that was what made him win! You can't vote off the Witch-King simply because he's evil. Now, Celebrian didn't even see the war front; she just walked on the wrong side of the tracks on purpose and got hurt. The Queen of Rivendell should know where the enemy roams. She didn't have to endure horrorific armies and whatnot. Furthermore, she sailed into the west becuase of her injury. When that happened to Frodo, it was his "death" so to speak. The same applies for Celebrian.

Now, The Witch-King was tough. He wasn't about to work for Sauron unless he was needed greatly, and cunningly waited until Sauron "perished" and the Ring was lost until he started his campaign. He was alone, and his enemies were still ready to fight, and even with that he managed to make a kingdom In enemy territory and destroy the kingdom of Arnor. When he retreated, he did so because he could not risk a lengthy battle with Glorfindel and his reinforcements: he had a capital to save. Furthermore, the way he was killed could have actually happened to anyone; Aragorn, Gandalf, perhaps even Sauron.

The Witch-King was cunning, powerful, and managed to make a kingdom of his own and brought down a powerful enemy with him. Surely he could last longer than Celebrian or Tar-Mirel.

Also, this seems to be based off of the island survivor, not the age event survivor. The Witch-King isn't a little known guy like Othar. The Witch-King is well known, yet he hasn't gained a vote against him until now (biased votes I might add.) This means he's doing things right on the island. Also, given his evil rep., the fact that he's been around for so long without having to fall back on lying whispers shows that he's really got together for this. The Witch-King is worthy of at least making it in the final three.

Don't hate the Witch-King because he wasn't like Celebrian. We don't hate Gimil because he was shorter than Legolas, we don't hate Aragorn because he wasn't like Feanor. That's like hating someone because their favorite color is red instead of green. Do not hate someone because of such claims. If you are going to use that arguement, then why allow villains at all? Why allow Boromir? Why allow Denethor? Obviously, such a method is greatly flawed.

Save the Witch-King.

[Celuien]

Sigh. No more Celeborn. Such a cruel show. But I have other plans...

This is most likely a wasted vote today, but I refuse to vote with any of the anti-Celebornists (you know who you are) for now in protest of his eviction yesterday. (Protest ends tomorrow.) :p And I like Celebrian.

So:

++ ELROS

Silly, silly man, going and choosing mortality.

[Gil-Galad]

like i said before, celebrian isn't that important and ends up being a ol' "timmy stuck in well" person


++Celebrian

[Diamond18]

You can't vote off the Witch-King simply because he's evil.

Says who, eh wot?

I can vote for the Witch-King because he's evil if I so desire. It's supported by Tolkien. Therefore it counts.

Previous games mean naught to me because I did not play in them. I suspect they wouldn't even if I had.

All lovers of good and defenders of Celebrian, unite!

[The 1,000 Reader]

Says who, eh wot?

I can vote for the Witch-King because he's evil if I so desire. It's supported by Tolkien. Therefore it counts.

Previous games mean naught to me because I did not play in them. I suspect they wouldn't even if I had.

All lovers of good and defenders of Celebrian, unite!

He's evil. I suppose you'd vote someone off if they were black too, huh? "He's evil." This is survivor, that arguement doesn't work. Who cares if he's evil? This is survivor. This isn't moral views TV, this is survivor. If we use the whole "they ar3 evil!!1" arguement the winner of the show will be the person who did the least and would be most likely to die. Therefore, they wouldn't be the actual survivor. They would only live because the others were killed off by an outside force.

Celebrian did the least and was injured and fled because she couldn't cope. She isn't a survivor, and she should go this time around.

[Eonwe]

1000 Reader, for all your evidence of a great warrior, shred stratagies and whatnot, the Witch King was killed by a woman. I think that should drop him down a few notches on the HossCat Scale, don't you think?

And no, this isn't really Survivor, in that the constestents aren't acutally voting themselves off. If it was, than you would have point. I dunno, I'd have to check with B88, but I think he called it Survivor because it seemed to fit. Obviously, he couldn't leave the whole idea intact. Therefore, it is us voting off people we don't like. And therefore we can vote off the evil if we so choose.

Either way, I still contend that Celebrian is a more worthy Second Ager than the Witch King.

[Diamond18]

He's evil. I suppose you'd vote someone off if they were black too, huh? "He's evil." This is survivor, that arguement doesn't work. Who cares if he's evil? This is survivor. This isn't moral views TV, this is survivor. If we use the whole "they ar3 evil!!1" arguement the winner of the show will be the person who did the least and would be most likely to die. Therefore, they wouldn't be the actual survivor. They would only live because the others were killed off by an outside force.

Celebrian did the least and was injured and fled because she couldn't cope. She isn't a survivor, and she should go this time around.

This is about the most immature post I've read on the 'Downs in a long while.

I'm sorry, but you need to grow up.

And call me a racist again for no good reason and I will notify the Barrow-Wight that you are slandering other members for juvenile reasons.

That's all I have to say. *bows*

[the phantom]

What has Celebrian done to deserve a spot in the final group?

I'm sure she was a great lady and all, but she didn't do anything worthy of being crowned Survivor Champion. The Witch King, on the other hand, terrorized thousands upon thousands over the years and was instrumental in the destruction of Arnor and the near defeat of Gondor.

Anyone who thinks Celebrian is more worthy than The Witch King of being recognized as Survivor Champ needs his or her head examined.

+ + Celebrian

[The 1,000 Reader]

1000 Reader, for all your evidence of a great warrior, shred stratagies and whatnot, the Witch King was killed by a woman.

So? It's not like women are flies or handicapped. Women have brains, muscles, and the like. They are people who are perfectly capable of fighting and such like men do. Also keep in mind that the Witch-King was just stabbed in the knee by a stealthy hobbit with a blade made to basically zap the Witch-Kings's powers and kill him. In the book, Eowyn didn't spend time taking off her helmet and whatnot, so she was quick to strike and in the movie WiKi was basically made a vegetable after the stab. I don't think that, say, Aragorn would have come out of that situation alive.

I apologize Diamond, it is just that I have seen many things such as "he has bad teeth!" or "She's Christian!" and such effect the judgement of others in real life and exclude and cause problems for kind individuals, many of whom I know. Your claim on why to send off the Witch-King just brought up old memories and that made me angry.The "racist" statement was meant to be more of a "that doesn't matter here" or "just because of this?" thing, like a gay man in the army or Jerry's girlfriend having "man hands" on Seinfeild.

"He's evil" also didn't sound like a solid reason to me. I mean, on mordor fansites you don't really see Aragorn or Gandalf voted out of games like these because their good or a ranger/maia, do you? "He's evil" also sounds more like a secondary detail in matters like these, ex: "Gandalf's a maia."

Once again, sorry.

(Since this doesn't seem to have a basic setting, I thought it was like the island used for the LOTR and Hobbit survivor.)

[Diamond18]

I apologize Diamond, it is just that I have seen many things such as "he has bad teeth!" or "She's Christian!" and such effect the judgement of others in real life and exclude and cause problems for kind individuals. Your claim on why to send off the Witch-King just brought up old memories and that made me angry.The "racist" statement was meant to be more of a "just because of this?" thing, like Jerry's girlfriend having "man hands" on Seinfeild.

The reason I think "he's evil" differs from something such as "he's black" etc. is that being evil is a bad thing. Being black is not. The evildoers such as Sauron and the Witch-King and Morgoth were ultimately the losers in Tolkien's works because not only did they die (as good guys die as well) everything they stood for was defeated as well. In Tolkien's works, good wins out in the end.

Ergo, someone who so obviously lost, not only his personal life but was defeated in his mission, doesn't deserve to win Survivor.

Sure, I think the Witch-King is wicked cool. But he's one of the bad guys, and in Tolkien, the bad guys don't win.

I don't see Celebrian as a final champion. But she should lose out to someone more worthy than the Witch-King -- someone who was also one of the good guys.

Anyway, that's why I think being evil is in itself a good enough reason to vote him off.

I do accept your apology. I just don't take allegations of racism lightly so I had to speak out on it.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Alright, though the fact that he lost doesn't seem like a very good reason either. All of the current survivors have lost something dear to them, putting them in the same boat in a sense. Even though he lost, The Witch-King put up a good fight and his defeat was a honorable one on the battlefield, unlike Morgoth who tried to barter from a corner when he most likely knew that such a thing would not work. The Witch-King fought hard and died trying, a rather "successful" death for a warlord such as him.

Besides, on survivor, the hand of Eru does not reach far enough to cast his judgement. Heck, Sauron, the "whipping boy" of Eru (so to speak,) managed to come in second place in the Sil survivor. If a guy who lost a stronghold to a mere two people, was beaten at the height of his strength by a tired king of men(who was rather old, even for his people) and a (rather weak compared to those before him) king of elves, and suffered a "black comedy" ultimate defeat can come in second on survivor, surely the Witch-King can avoid the hand of Eru. :)

[Formendacil]

Day Twenty-two was a day of scandal, as the voters fell to petty bickering amongst themselves. It was like a Ring of Power had been dropped into their midst. The final outcome, therefore, was ironically appropriate. The voting fell as follows:

Elros: I

Celebrían: IIII

The Witch-king: IIIII

As gone as he was invisible, the Witch-king was voted off, evening up the tribes...

Those remaining:

Tribe of Those Born Immortal:
Galadriel
Celebrían
Celebrimbor

Tribe of Those Born Mortal:
Elros Tar-Minyatur
Tar-Míriel
Anárion

Day 23 begins, and I'm still predicting a Galadriel win. ;) And, an interesting tidbit of information for the curious: the genders have been balanced.

Oh, and Diamond: it may be inconsistent of me... but since the Witch-king is definitely considered evil, that was definitely a counted rationale. Just try and support it with examples, to make it perfect.

[The 1,000 Reader]

++Celebrian.

Not because I want her gone*, but because she needs it.

Don't you see? Being on this island and roughing it with so many different people has scared and confused poor Celebrian. With people being sent off in small boats and poofing into thin air she doesn't even know if the world is real. Sauron spreading rumors that she was fat and that Elrond re-married has really hurt her. She's been spending the last five days on this island depressed and lying on the beach, staring at the ocean, wanting to go back to Valinor. Staying on the island by a lame voting plot rigged by Mirel and Galadriel against someone else has made her believe that everyone is against her. She thinks that the men will take advantage of her and the woman will make her a slave. She doesn't think she can make it. Anarion thinks she might kill herself soon.

So please, send Celebrian off the island so that she can return to Valinor and heal from this experience.

(*Okay, so maybe a tiny bit.)

Also,


Celebrian didn't even see the war front; she just walked on the wrong side of the tracks on purpose and got hurt. The Queen of Rivendell should know where the enemy roams. She didn't have to endure horrorific armies and whatnot. Furthermore, she sailed into the west becuase of her injury. When that happened to Frodo, it was his "death" so to speak. The same applies for Celebrian.

[Lhunardawen]

++CELEBRIAN

Okay, okay, she's a wonderful Elf...but she doesn't deserve to be here. Please don't make me give any further explanation other than what I've already said previously because, really, what else is there to say? :p

[JennyHallu]

++Celebrimbor

Celebrimbor's gullibility was the root of most of the problems faced during the Second Age. If a man is granted real skill and wisdom, he should use them, not allow himself to be duped by a known enemy.

And as for Celebrian, she represents a goodness and innocence that was sorely needed in Second Age ME. The 1,000 Reader, your arguement makes no sense: Frodo's journey to Valinor, while irrelevant, was also not his death. It was his ultimate triumph, a return to Eden-on-Earth, where he died a natural human death in his own good time. And Celebrian's retreat from Middle-Earth was, in the same way, NOT her death. It was the greatest tragedy to befall the world in the Second Age. (Celebrimbor's stupidity with the Rings, and the Numenoreans' stupidity with their ONE rule was just stupidity, and difficult to see as a tragedy, really) But that Celebrian's goodness and innocence was harmed by the corruption of Middle-Earth, that we learn that good things cannot last in a corrupt world, that is tragic. I say that Celebrian should survive, even win, as our own denial of the hopelessness of this Middle Earth.

[The Saucepan Man]

+ + CELEBRIMBOR

His greed for knowledge of ring lore led him to be taken in by Sauron and thus significantly contributed towards the downfall of Kings of Men, the corruption of Dwarven Lords, the waning of Elven power in Middle-earth, the creation of the One Ring and, therefore, the near total victory of Sauron.

He was humiliatingly used as a flag by the armies of Mordor.

Basically, he was a complete embarrassment to the line of Feanor.

And, on the Island, he occupies himself weaving plants into rings and calling them Rings of Flower, rather than contributing usefully towards the tasks or camp duties.

Besides, if he goes, it will annoy Ang and TP. :D

[Celuien]

++ELROS

Same reasoning as before. Minus the part about boycotting the anti-Celebornists. :D

[Lalaith]

++ELROS

same reasons as before. And I'm fond of Celebrimbor. He's clever, he makes pretty things and he likes Galadriel. What's not to like?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Celebrimbor

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

You'd think the fate of eight previous elves (daddy + 7)
significantly caused by pride in their powers would
have had some influence on him.

[Lalaith]

But what was the problem with the rings Celebrimbor made, anyway? Without them, Middle Earth would have been a lot worse of...

[Tuor in Gondolin]

But what was the problem with the rings Celebrimbor made, anyway? Without them, Middle Earth would have been a lot worse of...

A good, debatable point. But his being taken in by
"appearances" of pre-deluge Sauron doesn't speak
highly for his discernment. I believe Galadriel
told (Atanatar?) to shove off.

[The Saucepan Man]

But what was the problem with the rings Celebrimbor made, anyway? Without them, Middle Earth would have been a lot worse of...It's not so much the rings themselves but rather who he took his ring-making tips off. Which shows exceptionally bad judgment on his part.

I think that it is safe to say that Middle-earth would have been a lot better off without the Rings of Power if that meant that there was also no One Ring ...

[JennyHallu]

And had Celebrimbor not made his rings, Sauron's might not have been so powerful. Pure speculation, but Sauron waited to make his Ring until Celebrimbor had already made the others, right? The other rings must also have been vital in Sauron's plans for world domination.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

And had Celebrimbor not made his rings, Sauron's might not have been so powerful. Pure speculation, but Sauron waited to make his Ring until Celebrimbor had already made the others, right? The other rings must also have been vital in Sauron's plans for world domination.

JH: You could have the basis of several interesting threads here.
(I'm too lazy to check if there are existing ones). Tolkien
himself is, I believe, ambivalent on the overall effects of the three rings on
Middle-earth and the elves. And would a "stand-alone" Sauron Ring
have been less powerful?

At any rate, the Celebrimbor vote stands, although he did resist
Sauron, but he seems to be ethically/politically ambivalent
(in some versions ousting Galadriel from power) and still
pursuing elf power in Middle-earth.

[JennyHallu]

TiG: Sauron's own poem describing his Ring refers to it as Master of the other Rings, not as an independent power...

And if that is so, then Celebrimbor's denseness actively aided Sauron. He didn't even try to resist Sauron until he saw him in total "I am going to rule the world thanks to these suckers" mode and couldn't make an excuse not to.

[Eonwe]

NO, NO, a thouand time NOO!!! Celebrimbor, under no circumstances, should be voted off. Gulibility and sespeptablity to treachery were common problems in the Second Age. Think was good would have been lost had he not made his rings. Not to mention, they were not ever corrupted by Sauron. They came entirely from Celebrimbor's own thoughts and desires. Sauron made his ring to ensnare the bearers of all the others; he didn't even konw of teh Three.

Celebrimbor is the perfect candidate to win this Survivor. Not only does he have wisdom, skill, and knowledge, above all, he shows an admirable change in attitude from his father. Gone is the treacherous, deseitful leach. He will not stoop to play those power-games with the like of Grima Woomtouge and his father's brother's. No, he strikes out on the path of peace and knowledge, using his gifts of the sake of others.

[Eonwe]

Down with Elros! Down with the Pansy-King! Down with the Undeserving Monarch!

++Elros

Ha!

:D

[The 1,000 Reader]

And as for Celebrian, she represents a goodness and innocence that was sorely needed in Second Age ME. The 1,000 Reader, your arguement makes no sense: Frodo's journey to Valinor, while irrelevant, was also not his death. It was his ultimate triumph, a return to Eden-on-Earth, where he died a natural human death in his own good time. And Celebrian's retreat from Middle-Earth was, in the same way, NOT her death. It was the greatest tragedy to befall the world in the Second Age. (Celebrimbor's stupidity with the Rings, and the Numenoreans' stupidity with their ONE rule was just stupidity, and difficult to see as a tragedy, really) But that Celebrian's goodness and innocence was harmed by the corruption of Middle-Earth, that we learn that good things cannot last in a corrupt world, that is tragic. I say that Celebrian should survive, even win, as our own denial of the hopelessness of this Middle Earth.

As far as Middle-Earth was concerned, he/she was/were dead. I've even seen many wise members of these forums say that was Frodo's death in a sense. He was detached from Middle-Earth in pretty much every way, and that moment was the end of the line. Looking at Celebrian, the same applies.

Letting her win as you suggested wouldn't be honorable. That would be a pity win. A real survivor needs to win through their own skills, not because someone feels sorry for them.

It's the survival of the fittest, and she isn't fit.

[Firefoot]

++Elros

To recap my reasons (it was a couple days ago, now): as king, he basically did nothing except live for a really long time. The only things Elros is noted for are being related to Earendil, Elrond, etc., choosing mortality, being the first king of Numenor, and living a long time. At least Celebrimbor actually did something, however misguided he may have been in it. I'm not sure I want him to win, but I'd rather see Elros go first.

[JennyHallu]

As far as Middle-Earth was concerned, he/she was/were dead. I've even seen many wise members of these forums say that was Frodo's death in a sense. He was detached from Middle-Earth in pretty much every way, and that moment was the end of the line. Looking at Celebrian, the same applies.

Letting her win as you suggested wouldn't be honorable. That would be a pity win. A real survivor needs to win through their own skills, not because someone feels sorry for them.
This isn't ME survivor, it's SA survivor, and I support Celebrian because of my respect for her, not pity.

Oh...and Glorfindel came back, so no elf who goes to Valinor can be hastily classified as "dead".

[Formendacil]

A good, debatable point. But his being taken in by
"appearances" of pre-deluge Sauron doesn't speak highly for his discernment. I believe Galadriel told (Atanatar?) to shove off.

No, 'fraid not...

'twas Galadriel and Celeborn- not Celebrimbor- who ruled Eregion when Sauron waltzed right in after being given the thumb's down in Lindon. Tolkien, ever the Galadriel-fancier, tries to cover it by making it sound like Galadriel and Celeborn were rather lacking in power, but that doesn't speak any better about them, now does it?

And don't try blaming it all on Celeborn... we've already decided everything he did goes back to Galadriel. :p

[Diamond18]

Tolkien, ever the Galadriel-fancier, tries to cover it by making it sound like Galadriel and Celeborn were rather lacking in power, but that doesn't speak any better about them, now does it?

Er, you do realize that Tolkien was the godlike genius, author, and final authority of all things Middle-earth related and if he said they were lacking in power they were and there's no "trying" or "making it sound like" involved? :p

I dunno if I'm going to vote today. I feel like voting for Elros but I'm just too lazy to come up with some reasonable explanation for it... but since the day is double long maybe I'll come up with something in the next 24 hours.

[The 1,000 Reader]

This isn't ME survivor, it's SA survivor, and I support Celebrian because of my respect for her, not pity.

Oh...and Glorfindel came back, so no elf who goes to Valinor can be hastily classified as "dead".

Yeah, this is SA survivor, and, as mentioned, we can use any event from any age to decide the outcome.

You also overlook the fact that Glorfindel actually died. He was sent to the Halls of Mandos and was then sent back to Middle-Earth. The Halls of Mandos really doesn't sound too pleasant. No elf has ever sailed to Valinor and come back.

[Lalaith]

Thingol, Finwe and Manwe all did...

[The 1,000 Reader]

Didn't Finwe stay on Valinor? Manwe is a vala, not an elf, and Thingol is the only one who actually stands out. However, he came back in a time when the world was new and had not waned. Every other elf left because they grew sad or tired of the world.

[Lalaith]

Sorry, rather early in the morning for me, I meant Ingwe, not Manwe....

The three elf chiefs all went to Valinor, then came back to Middle Earth to tell their chums how fabby it was...

[The 1,000 Reader]

Sorry, rather early in the morning for me, I meant Ingwe, not Manwe....

The three elf chiefs all went to Valinor, then came back to Middle Earth to tell their chums how fabby it was...

That is true, but that visit was more of a "business meeting" of sorts. No other elf has sailed back when they left for a personal reason.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

(No, I won't do the whole of Hamlet's soliloquy in German. :p )

Do I vote in the hopes of a multiple lynch, or bandwaggon and help evict one character. Both aid and hurt my purposes here . . .

Oh, well.

++Elros Tar-Miniature

His claim to fame was living long. C'mon, mortal, life is not the amount of breaths you take, it's the moments that take your breath away. And, aside from your kidnapping, in which you were the receiver not the doer of the action, you didn't do anything of the sort.

Eeny, minie, Minyatur.
You're so small--are you a Stoor?
:D

[JennyHallu]

The entire host of the Noldor returned to Middle Earth from Valinor. So there.

[The 1,000 Reader]

That was because of a war. The "holy" Silmarils were stolen, their leader was killed, and they wanted vengeance, something they could only get in Middle-Earth, and even then that was only because Morgoth had "set up shop" there. No elf has ever willingly sailed back to Middle-Earth by an uneffected mind. This is most important for Celebrian.

[Formendacil]

Day Twenty-three marked the beginning of the home stretch of Survivor: The Second Age. With only six candidates remaining, the race was tight. The voting fell as follows:

Celebrían: II

Celebrimbor: III

Elros: IIIII

He had chosen the path of mortality, of NOT living to the end of the world, so it is perhaps only just that while he had a long run in the game of Surivor, Elros Tar-Minyatur did not make it to the end.


Those Remaining:
Galadriel
Celebrían
Celebrimbor
Tar-Míriel
Anárion

Day 24 now commences, and I'mstill predicting a Galadriel win. ;) And, for what is probably the first time in ME Survivor history, there are more female candidates than male.

Vote Away!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

++Celebrían

She lacks initiative, letting things be done to her instead. Like being married to Elrond, being kidnapped by Orcs, being rescued by Elladan and Elrohir, and being taken in a ship to Valinor.

If we think of history as a sentence, she's never in the nominative case, always in the accusative or dative case.

Begone!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

--Celebrían
++Galadriel

I just don't like Formendaga's prediction. :p Plus it has something to do with my strategy. ;)

Seriously, what's with flaunting her osanwë ability? 'Oh, look, I can talk to you without opening my mouth. How cool is that? Love me and despair, you talentless fools!' Oh, dear, what a character. :rolleyes:

[Firefoot]

++Galadriel

All right, she's lasted long enough now. And now there are enough female characters that I don't feel bad voting for one of them.

She appears to be too powerful. Look her up in UT and it's always "Galadriel's wisdom this" or "Galadriel's foresight that." Supposedly she's a match for just about everyone in body and mind - athletes, loremasters, etc. She's full of herself, too proud to give Feanor any of her hairs (a simple thing, yes?). But I think the truth is that Galadriel wrote all of this, and since she was suffering from an inferiority complex she had to make herself appear more powerful than she actually was. She has to show off just to prove that she is as good as the rest of them. And even if it is all true, she's still all too proud and she's still too powerful to stick around for the rest of this game. That's what happens in Survivor, after all: the strongest players are too strong so they get voted out.

[JennyHallu]

++Galadriel

For flirting with a dwarf, being cryptic when solid advice was needed, and for upstaging her husband whenever opportunity presented itself.