WWLXII: Dead Men Do Tell Tales

[Thinlómien]

I don't think there's any point in lynching Greenie. If she is a bluffing cobbler - which I doubt - we won't gain anything (except uncertainity about a certain person) but we will risk our seer by showing to the wolves that s/he's still alive! And if she's the real seer, we will have a known innocent which we already kind of have and we lose the only ghost who's made an effort to be helpful this far.

As for lynching Annu, well, I have the feeling it would reveal nothing but I should maybe reread yesterDay to judge it better. I think the biggest problem is simply that her lynch was sort of a side issue especially towards the end of the Day and if I recall correctly, not nearly everybody was invlolved in the debate about her.


edit: xed with Shasta

[Eönwë]

I think there would have been a challenge by now if Greenie were not the seer - so that clears Nerwen.

I wouldn't necessarily assume that the real seer would have revealed by now if Greenie isn't. It could be that the real seer hasn't found any wolves yet. However, it does make Nerwen seem innocent because I assume that the seer would have dreamt her, and if she had been a mutineer then they may have decided to reveal because of this, which would incriminate both Nerwen and Greenie.

Not sure if that made any sense...

edit: x-ed with Shasta #498 and later

[Inziladun]

I have only a couple of hours before I have to leave, and I know I won't make it back before DL, so I thought I'd offer a few things.

About the double lynches: I see them as mostly a waste of time. If we decided to do so, we could only afford to once, and the odds of learning anything useful just don't seem that great. Better to take action and try and make the lynches count.
Boro has seemed an advocate of trying one the whole game, but I don't think we ought to unless our backs are totally against the wall. And saying McCaber might be considered? He's backed off from that, but I see that as the worst choice for a double.
Rikae I must now take at her word, for lack of any counter reveals, either from the dead or from the living. She's voted for Gwath, who I found a bit unnerving before, but I'm not ready to vote him just yet.
I think I'm actually leaning toward Sally at the moment. The remark about the protector she made after Rikae's reveal was bizarre, and she passed it off as a throwaway. And there was the possible slip about assuming Wilwa innocent.
Where Kath be? Interesting to get her take on events.

x'd with Ëonwë and Lommy- good points both

[Mithalwen]

That is true but when we know so little, and can presume the ranger is living then known innocents might be as much use.

Actually that is an argument for NOT double killing... if it might reveial a dead ranger.....

[Eönwë]

Also, I'd just like to say that the fact that the wolves haven't lynched Nerwen yet is a little suspicious... Perhaps they think she is a co-conspirator.

edit: x-ed x2

[Boromir88]

Yes - my second thoughts of him are partly due to you and Rikae's suspicion against him, and that's no small part. I think I'm still on my way to learning not to trust anyone except myself in ww, but I'm progressing slowly because it's so tempting to trust nice and smart people and sometimes it's also very beneficial. But I have the feeling that too often I'm sitting here and accusing people or agreeing with them and waiting for someone to tell me "you're right here, you're wrong there" and solve it for me (maybe one of the reasons why I want Nogrod back so badly ).~Lommy
It's not about trusting people, you can't really 'trust' people in WW. It's being able to trust yourself, trust not only the 'evidence' but your instincts, feelings...etc. Your answer was 'yes but...," ok I guess I will have to accept that, but trust that instinct until you have reasons not to. ;)

Nah, I assumed you were a clever, entertaining trickster (I actually learned a few tricks from watching you). But if you insist, I'll consider you boring.~Rikae
Thanks! (I mean about the entertaining and learning tricks), I don't want to be considered boring. :p But the truth is I need people to have fun with, which is why I may have been in an intense, cautious mode earlier, but hopefully I'm not switching over to boring.

I'm not sure what I think about Shasta's arrival...I mean I like it, because it looks really good, but it's a bit of a surprise, it's caught me off guard...hmm

Edit: crossing and I'm not sure what I want to think of this spur of posts!

[Thinlómien]

Shasta, Eönwë - ooh you are actually correct, now that I think of it. In this game, the seer does not have to be afraid of taking his/her dreams to the grave with him and take chances on when to reveal, since s/he can always do it as a ghost. But I still trust Greenie and live in the sad belief we've lost the seer already, it seems the most porbable to me.

I would call it metagaming, Lommy, and metagaming is bad.Hey, what's meta-gaming? That I say Nogrod wouldn't be inclined to kill Greenie so early?


edit: xed with Zil, Mith, Eönwë and Boro

[Eönwë]

In addition to last post:

Or maybe they're just messing with our minds, planting a seed of doubt in Nerwen's innocence, trying to make us lynch the only innocent we have proven to us, while they sit back and enjoy.

edit: x-ed x2 again.

[Thinlómien]

Also, I'd just like to say that the fact that the wolves haven't lynched Nerwen yet is a little suspicious... Perhaps they think she is a co-conspirator.I have been thinking about that too, and what you say is one explanation, another is that they know that she's not gifted and are thus not wasting a kill on her, third is that they may be afraid the ranger is protecting her and what I see as the most probable reason is that killing her would give us concrete information and they probably want to keep us in the dark as much as possible. :rolleyes:


edit: xed with Eönwë - exactly, that too!

[Mithalwen]

I'm pretty confident of her innocence now. But I'm still a bit hesitant to say Nogrod would kill Greenie on Night2 without a specific reason -

Maybe unless he guessed she were gifted, I don't know. I won't vote for him in absentia today. But I may well go for Sally. She sort of fits my offender profile ...

[Mithalwen]

Because if is fairly safe to assume night kills are ordos or conspirators, killing Nerwen would pretty well eliminate any doubts about Greenie's seerhood.

[Mithalwen]

Just that after a whole eveniong of displacement activity I realised I should get a grip before I turned in to a pumpkin....

[Boromir88]

I'm not so much suspicious of Mith's post as I am, the sudden spurt of posts after it...I mean after a pretty slow day, between mostly Lommy, Rikae, Mac, and myself, everyone starts popping out of the woodworks.

Maybe I'm not taking into consideration timezones and people being out for various reasons, it's just interesting how multiple people popped out.

[Eönwë]

I'm not so much suspicious of Mith's post as I am, the sudden spurt of posts after it...I mean after a pretty slow day, between mostly Lommy, Rikae, Mac, and myself, everyone starts popping out of the woodworks.

Maybe I'm not taking into consideration timezones and people being out for various reasons, it's just interesting how multiple people popped out.

Well, I'm in the same timezone as Mith is (and I usually am here around this time anyway), but I don't know why Shasta suddenly chose to appear...

edit: also, by the way he started his post, it seems like Shasta had just been following the thread, and decided to comment at that point.

[Eönwë]

Anyway, I have to go in the next half-hour, so it's nice that there are more people around.

But everyone suddenly seems quite innocent to me toDay...

[Mithalwen]

++Sally

BTW If someone has time a vote summary might be an idea incase there is the risk of more modfire,...

Goodnight.

[Thinlómien]

I'm not so much suspicious of Mith's post as I am, the sudden spurt of posts after it...I mean after a pretty slow day, between mostly Lommy, Rikae, Mac, and myself, everyone starts popping out of the woodworks.
Maybe I'm not taking into consideration timezones and people being out for various reasons, it's just interesting how multiple people popped out.Well it does seem scarily like "ok now somebody else posted I may have to jump in too and stop hiding in my corner" but I won't start pointing fingers at people because of that - maybe our loudmouth debate scared off some people who were encouraged by less aggressive and loud others appearing? Not that we were actually being aggressive...

It's not about trusting people, you can't really 'trust' people in WW. It's being able to trust yourself, trust not only the 'evidence' but your instincts, feelings...etc. Your answer was 'yes but...," ok I guess I will have to accept that, but trust that instinct until you have reasons not to.Yes but (:p) Dr Boro, my problem is that I'm going in cycles - game by game I learn to be more and more self-confident and once I finally start trsuting myself I get everything totally wrong and then I have to start building the trust all over again. *sigh* But don't you worry about that :D and I never said I'm not trusting my gut-feeling of you for now - I am - but I keeping it open for revision (which is just sensible).


edit: xed with Eönwë and Mith

[Thinlómien]

I should vote and go to sleep soon. It's not like I'm tired, but it's soon 2am here and I'd better be sensible. I'm tempted to vote Sally but I don't like toDay feels to be turning into a huge Sallywagon - either her mates are abandoning her for good or we're mistaken and she's innocent, and in both cases there'll be too little to analyse toMorrow. I was leaning towards voting her but now I might vote Mac just to give an option.

[Thinlómien]

Rikae -> Gwath
Nerwen -> Gwath
Mith -> Sally

Gwath 2, Sally 1

[Rikae]

another is that they know that she's not gifted and are thus not wasting a kill on her

How would they know that? If Greenie is a cobbler, she's just guessing - and they don't, I assume, know that she isn't. Unless that was a slip of some sort...

[Boromir88]

Ugh this is going to sound terrible, but I really have not considered who I would vote for, other than Nogrod and well I said I'd wait.

Lets see...I'm good with Rikae, Mith, Nerwen and Lommy. I also like what I've recently seen from Shasta, his recent posts remind me of our time in Fea's Republic. ;) I just want to see more.

I am not as sold on Inziladun's innocence as I was yesterday, but don't feel it's worth the pursuit of a vote today.

My suspicions on Mac are more about his reaction to my reasons for voting for Nogrod, so today I won't vote for him.

I'm also more suspicious of Kath, but well she's not feeling well and I would like to wait at least until tomorrow.

Izzy I think is a co-conspirator, her 'sarcastic' responses to Rikae look very suspicious and I will vote for her today.

Gwath showed up late yesterday, we'll see what happens today, but my courtesy is only for a day, and if he doesn't show up and to start showing some good, I will vote for him.

Sally...has completely slipped my mind and I have no idea, which means it's probably not a good idea for a vote. Same with Eonwe, his appearance has me slightly suspicious, yep it's really just a gut-feeling right now, so same with sally.

[Thinlómien]

How would they know that? If Greenie is a cobbler, she's just guessing - and they don't, I assume, know that she isn't. Unless that was a slip of some sort...Okay, you're right, they don't, I was hasty when phrasing it. There's a smaller chance of her being gifted than others being gifted because if Greenie is the seer - which is probable from our point of view and from theirs as well if Nerwen's not one of them like this scenario assumes - she is not gifted and if Greenie is a cobbler it's still unlikely she had named a gifted (but of course not any more unlikely than anyone else being gifted in this village and some people are even though they have the just as small percentual probability to be as others). Am I making any sense?

edit: xed with Boro

[Thinlómien]

Boro, what's the point in lynching Izzy if she's a mere co-conspirator? It's one vote away from the baddies, but it may be a misguided vote and it won't affect the numbers. I think it doesn't make sense to vote possible cobblers anytime else than in the direst need (ie when having absolutely no idea about the wolves' identity).

[Boromir88]

Yes but () Dr Boro, my problem is that I'm going in cycles - game by game I learn to be more and more self-confident and once I finally start trsuting myself I get everything totally wrong and then I have to start building the trust all over again. *sigh* But don't you worry about that and I never said I'm not trusting my gut-feeling of you for now - I am - but I keeping it open for revision (which is just sensible).~Lommy
If you're evil you should be ashamed to manipulating me (and the crew) like this, playing the "I'm not confident defense." :p But if you're innocent than this should prove you have plenty of self-confidence, just don't let the inevitable "hiccups" mess you up. ;)

[Boromir88]

I don't know...maybe because a cobbler is better than an innocent? Although, you make a good point and lynching a cobbler would be even really less pointless in this set up, considering he/she would still be a ghost and could post.

[Thinlómien]

If you're evil you should be ashamed to manipulating me (and the crew) like this, playing the "I'm not confident defense." :p But if you're innocent than this should prove you have plenty of self-confidence, just don't let the inevitable "hiccups" mess you up. ;)If you're evil you should be ashamed of manipulating me by playing my personal psychologist, but if you're innocent this game should prove you'd make a great tutor. We're even, right? ;)

edit: xed with Boro again

[Thinlómien]

I'm going to go to sleep now.

++Sally

It's the best suspicion I have and it seems it would be easier for me to concentrate if I didn't have to keep reminding myself of her existence and suspiciousness and wondering about her in future.

I hope I can go after Mac or Nogrod or Kath toMorrow, if needs be.

[Boromir88]

If you're evil you should be ashamed of manipulating me by playing my personal psychologist, but if you're innocent this game should prove you'd make a great tutor. We're even, right? ;)

We're even now :p

I am going out to enjoy a late dinner, and will be no where near Salmon, so there is no worry in me falling asleep before the DL...I guess I should avoid turkey though, shouldn't I, that always puts me to sleep? :rolleyes:

[Thinlómien]

I guess I should avoid turkey though, shouldn't I, that always puts me to sleep? :rolleyes:Yes you should. ;)

One last thing before I go:


Rikae -> Gwath
Nerwen -> Gwath
Mith -> Sally
Lommy -> Sally

Gwath 2, Sally 2


Good night!

[Isabellkya]

What a bunch of quick flip-floppers you are.
Mind pointing out where I even hinted or suggested a claim to Huntership Rikae?

This is so freaking irritating and obvious it isn't even funny anymore.

++Izzy.

[Thinlómien]

Wow, Izzy, either you are really frustrated or truly a cobbler. *shrugs*

[Eönwë]

Day 1:

Rikae ++Inzil
Eomer ++Mira
Boro ++Noggie
Kath ++Eonwe
Shasta ++Boro
Eonwe ++Rikae
Greenie ++Shasta
Lommy ++Cabby
Wilwa ++Greenie
Mac ++Noggie (2)
Inzil ++Cabbie (2)
Boro --Noggie(1)
Annu ++Noggie (2)
Boro ++Shasta (2)
Rikae --Inzil (0)
Rikae ++Cabby (3)
Mac --Noggie(0)
Noggie ++Cabbie (4)
Sally ++Shasta (3)
Mac ++Noggie (1) <2>
Gwath ++Wilwa
Didn't vote: Nerwen, Izzy, Mith, Cabbie, Mira

Lynch: Cabbie


Night 2
Kill: Greenie


Day 2:
Nerwen ++Inzil
Mith ++Noggie
Annu ++Shasta
Rikae ++Shasta (2)
Kath ++Annu
Eomer ++Mira <2>
Shasta ++Rikae
Wilwa ++Eonwe
Rikae --Shasta (1)
Rikae ++Mira (2)
Noggie ++Eomer
Mac ++Eomer (2)
Boro ++Mira (3)
Inzil ++Annu (2)
Gwath ++Mira (4)
Izzy ++Mac
Didn't vote: Sally, Lommy, Eonwe

Lynch: Mira

Night 3:
Kill: Eomer

Day 3:
Sally ++Shasta <2>
Noggie ++Annu
Boro ++Noggie <2>
Rikae ++Sally
Mith ++Noggie (2)
Shasta ++Annu (2)
Wilwa ++Gwath
Eonwe ++Gwath (2)
Nerwen ++Rikae
Kath ++Annu (3) <2>
Lommy ++Gwath (3)
Inzil ++Rikae (2)
Mac ++Gwath (4)
Nerwen --Rikae (1)
Izzy +Noggie (2)
Nerwen ++Annu (4)
Gwath ++Annu (5)
Didn't vote: Annu

Night 4
Modfired: Wilwa

(x)=number of votes each person recieved
<x>=number of votes given by one person to another (repeat voting)
Italic=retraction
Bold=alive now

All votes in order

edit: x-ed since Mith's post

[Eönwë]

I have no idea who to vote and I should have gone to sleep around half an hour ago.

[Eönwë]

Ok, well I'm going to vote:

++Sally

Because she is in deep hibernation under Rudolph, and in voting she only seems to want to vote because she is is forced to, as if she doesn't really want to be answerable for her actions.


edit: triple post. 'Tis a quiet time again now.

[Rikae]

What a bunch of quick flip-floppers you are.
Mind pointing out where I even hinted or suggested a claim to Huntership Rikae?

This is so freaking irritating and obvious it isn't even funny anymore.

++Izzy.

Care to come out and say whatever it is you're hinting at? That was my best guess.

[Inziladun]

This has been a busy RL day, and the time draweth nigh that I must be off yet again to work.

Boro seems to have been pretty active toDay. Beyond disagreeing with him about the ghost-lynchings I have no particular inclinations.

Mac seems different today, more reserved, but flu could explain that.

Lommy sets off no warning bells.

Shasta hasn't really been here today. Could be RL stuff, like me. I'm not feeling much like he's a mutineer, at any rate.

Izzy has an air of crafty menace about her, raising some hackles when she appears, then somehow sinking back into the gloom unnoticed. Then you forget about her until she posts again. Now she says something is 'so freaking irritating and obvious', then doesn't explain what she means. And votes herself?! Would a real mutineer do that? If so, why?

Kath gets a pass for illness.

Ëonwë is another one whom it's easy for me to forget. He seems to make decent points and doesn't feel very foul.

Nogrod isn't here. I have to wonder if the lack of a night kill isn't somehow connected with his absence, but there's absolutely no proof of that.

Gwath gets a pass unless I see something more concrete.

Mith looks to be innocent and helpful.

With a decision having to come now, it's:

++ Sally, for the strange behaviour after the Rikae reveal.

Night, all.

Edit- x'd with Rikae

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I'm really feeling unsure about this Sally-wagon...

[Macalaure]

About the non-dead Nerwen: It's understandable that they didn't kill her right away (likely ranger protection) and last night, well. Not surprised she's still living at all.

I'm not so much suspicious of Mith's post as I am, the sudden spurt of posts after it...I mean after a pretty slow day, between mostly Lommy, Rikae, Mac, and myself, everyone starts popping out of the woodworks.

That... doesn't make any sense at all. Do you think the mutineers agreed on a specific time to suddenly take over the thread?

My suspicions on Mac are more about his reaction to my reasons for voting for Nogrod, so today I won't vote for him.

There's one problem with your logic behind that: If Nogrod actually gets lynched, then what? You still won't know his role, and therefore you will still not be any smarter about my role in turn. That's one of the challenges of this game: As long as we don't kill anybody twice, you need to make up your mind about each person independently.


I don't like all those weak-reasoned Sally-votes.

[Rikae]

Hm, this Boro and Mac thing is looking rather wolf-on-wolfish. They argue and almost make a show of distrust while not really going after each other... then on the other hand, both of them are good enough players to make wolf-on-wolf suspicion look real if they want to...

[Rikae]

Mac, explain to me why your general blandness and lack of opinions in this game does not mean you're a wolf. *taps toe*

:p

[Macalaure]

Just had my closer look at Boro and ended up with these conclusions: (I don't feel good enough to give you the "meat" (in a decipherable format), too. Borro be postin' a-plenty.)

- I dislike his obsession with Shasta as justification for his Day1-vote.
- His case against Nogrod doesn't look as far-fetched on second look - at first. The reasons he piles on from Day3 on are not convincing anymore. But this is just what an over-fixated ordo might end up with.
- His determined advocation to lynch Mira looks genuine.
- I already stated that his "lynch Nog first and then Mac" idea is not well thought through. Boro is usually not the type to not think things through.
- It looks very evil that he likes us to double-kill McCaber if he thinks he's innocent. Obviously, a known mutineer would serve us much, much better. It's connected with his fixation on Nogrod, though.
- There is a buddy-buddiness going on between Boro and Lommy that I don't know what to think of.
- That "yes", "no", "but" -thing looks mighty evil to me.

I could see an innocent Boro behaving this way, but there are plenty of stains that make me doubt it. I can't justify making him my top suspect at this point, but he's certainly up there.

[Macalaure]

Mac, explain to me why your general blandness and lack of opinions in this game does not mean you're a wolf. *taps toe*

:p

Haha! Now that's a compliment. Actually, if I really am bland and lack opinions, it indeed would usually mean I'm a wolf. That's part of my basic strategy. Since having a flu probably doesn't count as explanation, I guess I can only give you the nearly complete lack of information to deduce anything from. I'll be more edgy eventually, promise. ;)

[Boromir88]

Hm, this Boro and Mac thing is looking rather wolf-on-wolfish.~Rikae
If Mac's a wolf, I'm sure that's what he's attempting to make it look like...if I was one, I would most likely be doing it too. My suspicions our sincere though. ;)

That... doesn't make any sense at all. Do you think the mutineers agreed on a specific time to suddenly take over the thread?~Mac
I feel like I'm the only one who has to explain random observations, where now for some reason there's a counter reaction to the sally votes. I mean granted she gets some questionable votes, but just as fast has people jumping on the "this lynch sally wagon is strange" counter bandwagon. And that happened just as fast as the first wagon. The "trend" in WW changes faster than trendy clothes :rolleyes:

Anyway, I will explain it Mac. In the Republic I made a random observation about something, (I can't tell you off the top of my head what it is, but if you insist I'll look it up for you). It was pretty slow at the time, and out of the blue Brinn, Shasta, and 3rd person decided to suddenly pop in and speak.

Obviously I didn't believe all three of them were evil, but it looked pretty wierd to see three people(who had been absent for most if not all the day) suddenly pop in to say something. As it turned out Brinn was the baddie. I just randomly noticed the same thing, Mith makes an observation, and after long absenses 3 people suddenly decided they had comments. If you read what I said in a post after, I liked what I saw from Shasta (so your point that I was saying all 3 mutineers agreed on a time to post is wrong). But it has made me suspicious of Inziladun and Eonwe, because of the past in Fea's Republic.

[Rikae]

Haha! Now that's a compliment. Actually, if I really am bland and lack opinions, it indeed would usually mean I'm a wolf. That's part of my basic strategy. Since having a flu probably doesn't count as explanation, I guess I can only give you the nearly complete lack of information to deduce anything from. I'll be more edgy eventually, promise. ;)

Wow, that's... just the sort of thing you would say to me as a wolf.

[Boromir88]

- There is a buddy-buddiness going on between Boro and Lommy that I don't know what to think of.
- That "yes", "no", "but" -thing looks mighty evil to me.~Mac
Spectating it might look evil, I'll give you that...but I was giving her the tp treatment...that is testing to see whether my impression I got where I felt her one post earlier was innocent, was the 'right' impression. And at the same time, trying to prove to her my own innocence, that's what I call the "tp treatment," because essentially that's really the only way I can ever figure out what that man is up to. I have no idea what Lommy wanted to get from it, if anything at all except joking around, she'll have to explain it, but she passed my test. ;)

[Macalaure]

Wow, that's... just the sort of thing you would say to me as a wolf.

Okaaaay...

If you expected me to throw out some suspicion at you in turn, I might have - if you were not a semi-known innocent. :rolleyes:

[Rikae]

A bit more defensiveness would have looked more innocent, I think - for future reference. ;)

[Rikae]

After all, assuming you're *not* a wolf, my suspicion of you might mean that toNight they kill me and I take you with me...

[Macalaure]

A bit more defensiveness would have looked more innocent, I think - for future reference. ;)Why should I have defended myself from it - I'm fully aware that I haven't been outrageously sharp in this game so far. As I said, I blame it on flu + lack of evidence.

[Macalaure]

After all, assuming you're *not* a wolf, my suspicion of you might mean that toNight they kill me and I take you with me...I don't get it. Why should an innocent fear to be the hunter-pick more than a mutineer should fear it? Or am I misunderstanding you? :confused:

[Rikae]

I don't get it. Why should an innocent fear to be the hunter-pick more than a mutineer should fear it? Or am I misunderstanding you? :confused:

Because innocents can't choose the night kill - and the aggressors are more likely to kill the hunter if they think she's hunting an innocent.

[Boromir88]

++Gwath

I don't feel like explaining that at the moment, maybe some time before the DL :D

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Can I have a guest appearance on the "Rikae - Mac Show"? :)

[Macalaure]

I'm not absolutely sure whether I'll stick around til the deadline, so I better make sure I vote now:

++Gwathagor

If he shows up, this might change.

[Macalaure]

Rikae -> Gwath
Nerwen -> Gwath (2)
Mith -> Sally
Lommy -> Sally (2)
Izzy -> Izzy
Eonwe -> Sally (3)
Inzy -> Sally (4)
Boro -> Gwath (3)
Mac -> Gwath (4)

A bit lacking in diversity, but not uninteresting. :)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I'm not absolutely sure whether I'll stick around til the deadline, so I better make sure I vote now:

++Gwathagor

If he shows up, this might change.

Weird, given that you just said you might not be here to change it.

[Macalaure]

Weird, given that you just said you might not be here to change it.Ok, I should have said "if he shows up and if I'm still around".

[Boromir88]

Usually I feel I'm pretty defensive towards player' schedules, times, and how active they can/want to be...but sometimes it's irritating because it borders upon the ridiculous.

I debated on whether I wanted to say that, because I don't mean to be rude and incosiderate, just well...something I think that needed to be said with under 30 minutes til the DL

[Shastanis Althreduin]

To be honest, I'm not sure I see the case on Sally or Gwath. And I really don't feel comfortable that they're our only real lynch possibilities with half an hour till deadline.

[Boromir88]

Alright Shasta, whatcha thinkin'? :)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I still think today would be a good time to get some real, concrete information by lynching one of our ghosts, but apparently I'm in the minority about that, and we almost certainly don't have enough time to make that happen. :(

[Macalaure]

Since Gwath and Sally are missing, it's almost entirely up to you now, Shasta.

[Boromir88]

I don't know if the choices would be that beneficial...I really do think Mira would, but Rikae's got a point that it could just be a red herring that ends up being a mess. And also, if we really considered being 'up' for the wolve's no kill, than that won't change in the future. Plus, we could even get more of an advantage if the Ranger protects someone, or our Hunter kills someone.

[satansaloser2005]

Well, rubbish. I've quoted all these posts and for some reason it didn't save stuff.


I know Nerwen (or at least I think it was Nerwen) asked for an explanation regarding my behavior yesterDay. Simple. I was going to simply take a nap and then come back and change my vote (as I mentioned before I headed off for said nap) but I ended up....well, suffice to say I got very ill and wasn't able to make it back to my computer. I would have retracted before I went to bed but I thought I'd be back before deadline and I thought if I did sleep through deadline I didn't want to have another Day without a vote, as then I'd....well, you know, die.


Shasta still wants to kill a ghost, but I'm leaning toward siding with him at this point. Before it seemed like a diversion tactic (being so early in the game and all) but I'm not sure it's a bad idea now. I want to keep an eye on him, but I think I will in fact leave him alone.

Gosh, he must be loving all the attention from me. ;)


Okay, so I'm not completely single-minded, I've been getting strange vibes from Dun. Gwath has struck me as awkward, but I never get a good read on him. Then again....bah I'm torn on voting him because I know that it would partially be to save myself. Then again I know that I'm not a wolf, whereas I dont' know what he is, and I'm not willing to take that risk.


I'll vote in a minute, and once again I apologize for my absense. Busy weekend.

[Boromir88]

Kills a mutineer I should clarify

[Shastanis Althreduin]

There are, of course, pros and cons to any plan. In hindsight, maybe we should wait to lynch A Little Green Ghost if and until we have a competing Seer-claim. I just intensely dislike having no concrete information whatsoever on which to base any decision. The most concrete evidence right now that I can see is that it's possible someone who was inactive or not here for some reason might be responsible for last night's no kill, but that's really close to metagaming and makes me uncomfortable.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Shasta still wants to kill a ghost, but I'm leaning toward siding with him at this point. Before it seemed like a diversion tactic (being so early in the game and all) but I'm not sure it's a bad idea now. I want to keep an eye on him, but I think I will in fact leave him alone.

Gosh, he must be loving all the attention from me. ;)


Okay, so I'm not completely single-minded, I've been getting strange vibes from Dun. Gwath has struck me as awkward, but I never get a good read on him. Then again....bah I'm torn on voting him because I know that it would partially be to save myself. Then again I know that I'm not a wolf, whereas I dont' know what he is, and I'm not willing to take that risk.




Ehhh... Sally, this sort of seems like you know my vote is important to your continued survival, and you're trying to get on my good side, because regardless if you side with me or vote for Gwath, it's going to be partially to save your own skin at this point. I don't know what to think now. :(

[Boromir88]

Well it will be a race, to see who can sneak in a last vote, that's for sure. I'm staying with Gwath if it makes any difference.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

That last post made me too suspicious not to vote for you, Sally. Sorry. :(

++Sally

[satansaloser2005]

++Gwath



slow refresh so I'll be back in a minute.

[Brinniel]

Belay that talk! Sally will walk the plank.

[Brinniel]

Though they had lost Wilwa Scab to Davy Jones, th' crew was quite relieved to find no one else dead. Yet th' day ahead would prove difficult. Th' corpses were pilin' up, 'n some wondered if it'd be best to be rid 'o a ghost to lighten th' load. Yet it was later agreed that it'd be smarter to murder a livin' scallywag 'n give a go' to eliminate th' mutineers since th' death 'o a ghost might be tellin' them nothin'.

By th' end 'o th' day, it came down between Cowerin' Gwath Slasher 'n Legless Sally Dawkins. Th' crew agreed that both had be actin' as quite th' sneaky swabs. But th' opinion 'o which one should die was split below th' middle. In th' end, th' decision was left to Shark Tooth Shasta because after all, he was th' first matey.
"So what's it gunna be, Shark Tooth?" questioned Mac Sparrow.
"Hmmm...." Shasta thought long 'n harrrd. "Okay, Sally Dawkins it be then," he decided.
"No, no, murder Gwath!" protested Sally. "He's just a powder monkey, he be. I be ye carpenter. Ye can't murder me."
But no one would listen to Legless Sally's protests.

"How we murder her?" Shark Tooth Shasta asked his quartermaster.
"Hm, well I be not sure I be needin' to murder her just yet," said Lommy th' Infected. "How 'bout just a punishment fer now? Then we can finish her off later. 'Tis be awhile since I done a good old-fashioned keelhaulin'."
So Short Ruth Mith removed Sally's peglegs 'n tied her up to a rope real tight. Once she was thrown into th' ocean, Inziladun Jones 'n Eön Bloodbeard took turns heavin' th' rope as poor Sally Dawkins was dragged from one side under th' ship to th' other.
"Oh look, a shark," Ham-Hands Izzy observed, pointin' towards th' water. Th' crew watched as th' shark disappeared underneath th' ship.
Another minute went by before Almost-Blind Nerwen spoke up. "Maybe we let her up," she said. "After all, becomin' shark bait be quite a nasty way to be off fer anyone, 'n we don't even be knowin' whether she was guilty."
Th' rest 'o th' crew nodded in agreement 'n they pulled Sally up. But it was too late fer th' carpenter. Th' shark had already gotten to her, 'n now Legless Sally Dawkins was also Armless Sally Dawkins.
"Well at least we won't have to worry 'bout killin' her fer later," commented Quartermaster Lommy.

Th' now-dead Sally Dawkins reawakened, spewin' sea water everywhere. She took notice 'o her missin' arms 'n rolled her eyes.
"Great. Hearty thanks to ye lot," she said sarcastically. "Ye just couldn't murder me th' normal way like ye did fer Slippery McCaber, could ye?" She nudged her head in th' direction 'o th' hempen halter whar McCaber was still swin'in'.
"'O course they couldn't," stated Black Death Brinn from her pike. "If everyone were to dance th' hempen jig, then that'd make me narration dull. Now stop ye complainin'. At least ye still have a body."

Th' crew threw what was left 'o Sally Dawkins next to th' previous day's murder 'n retired fer th' nightfall.
"What happened to ye?" asked High-Pitched Annu, openin' one eye after a long day's nap.
"They took me arms, that's what happened," Limbless Sally replied bitterly. "Now thar be only half 'o me left."
"Yo-ho-ho, I be knowin' what ye mean," Annu mumbled 'n she fell back asleep.


The Living:

-Puffy Shirt Rikae ~ Cabin Boy
-Pirate Lommy the Infected ~ Quartermaster
-Gangrenous Inziladun Jones ~ Pilot
-Pirate Boromir the Malformed ~ Gunner
-Shark Tooth Shasta ~ First mate
-Snifflin’ Mac Sparrow ~ Cooper
-Almost-Blind Nerwen ~ Navigator/Sea Artist
-Poop Deck Kath ~ Musician (Pipe)
-Cowerin' Gwath Slasher ~ Powder Monkey
-Pirate Nogrod the Fashionably Late ~ Gunner
-Ham-Hands Izzy ~ Striker
-Short Ruth Mithril ~ Cook
-Stinkin' Eön Bloodbeard ~ Powder Monkey


The Ghosted:

-Black Death Brinn ~ Captain ~ shish kabobed (mod)
-Slippery McCabbie Dagger ~ Boatswain ~ danced the hempen jig
-Lil' Green the Staggering Drunk ~ Powder Monkey ~ drank up all the rum
-Dancin' Mira Blythe ~ Striker ~ danced her way off the deck
-Whinin’ Eomer Bonny ~ Musician (Pur-loined Violin) ~ his pur-loined violin pur-loined him
-High-Pitched Annu ~ Surgeon ~ halved by her own saw
-Stutterin’ Wilwa Scab ~ Cook ~ gave her heart to Davy Jones
-Legless Sally Dawkins ~ Carpenter ~ was shark bait for a day


Night 5 has begun. Gifteds and aggressors, send me your choices.

[Brinniel]

That nightfall, th' aggressors tiptoed towards their next victim, hopin' to catch him by surprise. But he was a light sleeper. Spottin' his soon-to-be attackers in th' darkness, he let out a shriek 'n hopped out 'o his bunk.
"Ye're here to murder me, aren't ye?" he asked them. "'O course," they replied. "What else would we be doin' here? We're famished fer more blood 'n it be yours we be after."
"Fine then," said th' victim. "But ye'll have to catch me first."

In that instant, th' victim took off runnin' 'n screamin' in terror. Swords in hands, th' aggressors went after him. All through th' ship they ran. Up to th' poop deck, through th' galley, below to th' bilge rat. Finally, th' victim could run no more. Pantin', he collapsed as th' aggressors caught up to him. They didn't even wait fer him to catch his breath, but proceeded to stab him several times 'til he didn't breathe at all. When they were done, th' aggressors snickered 'n ran away.

But th' victim wasn't done yet. Now as a ghost, he stood back up eager fer revenge. He would no longer be a victim, but an avenger. Th' avenger grabbed his sword 'n sought out his own victim 'o choice. He found him quickly, 'n didn't hesitate to point his sword at th' startled scurvy dog's throat.
"What be ye threatenin' at me fer?" asked th' avenger's victim.
"What fer?" th' avenger replied. "Ye killed me! 'An I shall have me vengeance." "Avast, thar, how can ye be sure that I be really be ye killer?"
"Don't ask questions. 'O course I would be knowin' who attacked me. Now I demand a duel." Th' avenger pressed his sword harder against th' other scallywag's throat, drawin' blood.
"Fine then," th' victim growled, unhappy at bein' threatened like so. "Whar do want to do it?"
"On th' poop deck. We can sword fight in th' moonlight."
"So be it. Just let me find me sword first." said th' victim as he scrounged in th' dark.

Everyone continued to slumber, while up on deck a duel began. They clashed their swords, practiced their fancy footwork, 'n did all other sorts 'o impressive stunts. It was great entertainment, which makes it a shame that no one else was thar to watch; even th' dead were asleep. They were an even match. But unfortunately fer th' victim, a ghost be harrrd to murder again, especially a vengeful one. 'An in th' end, th' avenger was th' victor as he plummeted his sword into th' other's chest. So th' avenger's victim joined him among th' ranks 'o th' unquiet dead.

In th' mornin', th' crew was shocked to find not one, but a pair among them had become ghosts overnight. Nogrod 'n Rikae stood on th' poop deck, both locked in an angry death stare, as blood seeped from their stab wounds. They didn't even blink when their fellow crewmembers surrounded them. But why would they? They were dead, after all.


The Living:

-Pirate Lommy the Infected ~ Quartermaster
-Gangrenous Inziladun Jones ~ Pilot
-Pirate Boromir the Malformed ~ Gunner
-Shark Tooth Shasta ~ First mate
-Snifflin’ Mac Sparrow ~ Cooper
-Almost-Blind Nerwen ~ Navigator/Sea Artist
-Poop Deck Kath ~ Musician (Pipe)
-Cowerin' Gwath Slasher ~ Powder Monkey
-Ham-Hands Izzy ~ Striker
-Short Ruth Mithril ~ Cook
-Stinkin' Eön Bloodbeard ~ Powder Monkey


The Ghosted:

-Black Death Brinn ~ Captain ~ shish kabobed (mod)
-Slippery McCabbie Dagger ~ Boatswain ~ danced the hempen jig
-Lil' Green the Staggering Drunk ~ Powder Monkey ~ drank up all the rum
-Dancin' Mira Blythe ~ Striker ~ danced her way off the deck
-Whinin’ Eomer Bonny ~ Musician (Pur-loined Violin) ~ his pur-loined violin pur-loined him
-High-Pitched Annu ~ Surgeon ~ halved by her own saw
-Stutterin’ Wilwa Scab ~ Cook ~ gave her heart to Davy Jones
-Legless Sally Dawkins ~ Carpenter ~ was shark bait for a day
-Puffy Shirt Rikae ~ Cabin Boy ~ was never fond of pointy objects
-Pirate Nogrod the Fashionably Late ~ Gunner ~ had an unfriendly encounter with cold steel


*Reminder: Gender, order of death as listed, etc has no significance and contains no hints.


Day 5 has begun. Start discussing.

[Boromir88]

Well I guess there goes my first post...:rolleyes:

[Shastanis Althreduin]

You're a first post thief, Boro. :(

[Boromir88]

Check that, I just scrolled to the bottom and saw Nogrod's name...I probably should have checked the narration first. :rolleyes:

Edit: crossed with Shasta, haha...if I would have read the narration first you would have stolen it. :p

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I feel even more gipped now. :[

[satansaloser2005]

Well, you know what? Fourth post is mine! So there! :p


Now....what the Medusa Cascade is going on here?! Besides, the obvious, that is.



ETA: x'd with Shasta. DANG IT! :mad:

[Isabellkya]

The wolves are being "sneaky" and getting closer and closer to having the upper hand.

That is what is going on.

[Nerwen]

Why are people asking what is going on when it is quite obvious?

Either a.) Rikae was the Avenger, as she claimed, and she picked Nogrod, or b.) Nogrod was and he picked Rikae. In the latter case we're down one baddie (not necessarily a mutineer, though); in the former there's no way of telling.

[Nerwen]

The wolves are being "sneaky" and getting closer and closer to having the upper hand.

That is what is going on.

Meaning...?

[satansaloser2005]

Why are people asking what is going on when it is quite obvious?

Either a.) Rikae was the Avenger, as she claimed, and she picked Nogrod, or b.) Nogrod was and he picked Rikae. In the latter case we're down one baddie (not necessarily a mutineer, though); in the former there's no way of telling.

That's what I meant by what's going on.


By the way, I'm rather cross that I'm dead. I don't exactly blame you because I was gone most of yesterDay, but still.

[Isabellkya]

*facepalm*

I pulled a Boro and didn't read the narration. Or see that Rikae had perished.

[Nerwen]

*facepalm*

I pulled a Boro and didn't read the narration. Or see that Rikae had perished.

So, uh, why did you say anything?

[Nerwen]

Now, assuming Rikae was indeed the Hunter, then it looks as if either the wolves felt they could afford to take a risk (i.e. we're doing badly), or they were fairly confident none of them would be picked last Night.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

So, uh, why did you say anything?

To be fair, Nerwen, you could ask Boro the same thing.

[Isabellkya]

Why not say anything?

[satansaloser2005]

*facepalm*

I pulled a Boro and didn't read the narration. Or see that Rikae had perished.

Hehe. I nearly did the same thing, but I stopped to glare at my own name on the dead list (:p) and noticed there were two below me.

So, uh, why did you say anything?

Because I'm guessing she did what I sometimes do; looked at the list of the dead and planned to read the narration later.

[Nerwen]

To be fair, Nerwen, you could ask Boro the same thing.

Why not say anything?

Because I'm guessing she did what I sometimes do; looked at the list of the dead and planned to read the narration later.

Guess I didn't make myself clear. Izzy said this:

The wolves are being "sneaky" and getting closer and closer to having the upper hand.

That is what is going on.

So why say that if you had nothing specific to base it on?

[satansaloser2005]

Guess I didn't make myself clear. Izzy said this:



So why say that if you had nothing specific to base it on?



Ooooh. Erm, whoops?


I think, being dead and all, I'll try to make myself useful to my lovely team and put up a vote count.

[Nogrod]

Oh Rikae, you fool old beggar! You gave the mutineers a double-kill! What a waste...

But I can confirm her status. She was the avenger because I used to be an ordinary innocent just puffing my pipe in the dead of the Night with the worst hangover ever when she came upon me and ghosted me.

Just a careful suggestion then. She was quite definitively picking Gwath as her suspect yesterDay so one could presume he would be her hunt-target as well? So Gwath is an innocent then? It would have been a risky and idiotic move from the mutineers to try Rikae if Gwath was one of them aggressors.

I'll go sleep rest of my headache away (yeah, ghosts can have headaches too I have learned). I'll hope to skim through the last few Days later on and see if there is anything that catches me eye.

[Thinlómien]

I was hoping that if they'd go for her, she'd pick Mac. It would have been nice (and romantic besides :Merisu: ). But clearly she did not suspect him strongly enough and I tell you I know Macalaure knew she'd not have the nerve to pick him just yet. Arrr. I'm really really suspicious of Mac right now, he seems to have only gotten worse since I went to bed late yesterDay.

And toDay is darn weird this far. But I think it looks like Izzy is a cobbler, Boro is innocent, Sally was some kind of a baddie and there's no way of knowing about Nogrod or Shasta. (And I'm still considering Nerwen a known innocent.)

I'm off to reread yesterDay's posts that came after I went to bed, I'm sure there was stuff I wanted to comment on.

[Nerwen]

But I can confirm her status. She was the avenger

Well, thanks. At least we know one thing for certain.

a careful suggestion then. She was quite definitively picking Gwath as her suspect yesterDay so one could presume he would be her hunt-target as well? So Gwath is an innocent then? It would have been a risky and idiotic move from the mutineers to try Rikae if Gwath was one of them aggressors.

Ahem. I think you'll find I beat you to that deduction:

Now, assuming Rikae was indeed the Hunter, then it looks as if either the wolves felt they could afford to take a risk (i.e. we're doing badly), or they were fairly confident none of them would be picked last Night.

I wonder if that rules out everyone Rikae strongly suspected... or is that too dangerous an assumption?

EDIT: X'd with Lommy.

[Inziladun]

For what it's worth, Rikae's last vote was for Izzy, though she seemed to be leaning toward a stronger suspicion of Mac.

[Nerwen]

In case anyone wants to lynch a ghost toDay, here's a list:

Known non-wolves (Night-killed)
A Little Green (claimed Protector)
Eomer
Rikae (Avenger) – only ghost whose role is definitely known

Unknown (Lynched/mod-fired/hunted)
McCaber
Mira
Annu
Wilwa
Sally
Nogrod

EDIT: X'd with Zil.

[Thinlómien]

Hm, this Boro and Mac thing is looking rather wolf-on-wolfish. They argue and almost make a show of distrust while not really going after each other..I think it looked more like cobbler-on-cobblerish - you know, just causing a mess... But I still it's most likely that Boro is innocent and Mac is a nasty wolf grrr...

Haha! Now that's a compliment. Actually, if I really am bland and lack opinions, it indeed would usually mean I'm a wolf. That's part of my basic strategy. Since having a flu probably doesn't count as explanation, I guess I can only give you the nearly complete lack of information to deduce anything from. I'll be more edgy eventually, promise.When I first read this I was like "ick! if that's not wolvish, what is?" and when I saw Rikae's reaction:
Wow, that's... just the sort of thing you would say to me as a wolf. it was the last nail to Mac's coffin for me.

Spectating it might look evil, I'll give you that...but I was giving her the tp treatment...that is testing to see whether my impression I got where I felt her one post earlier was innocent, was the 'right' impression. And at the same time, trying to prove to her my own innocence, that's what I call the "tp treatment," because essentially that's really the only way I can ever figure out what that man is up to. I have no idea what Lommy wanted to get from it, if anything at all except joking around, she'll have to explain it, but she passed my test.Well I don't make any schemes, I was mostly just saying stuff that I was thinking about. :D But yes, I think it was very useful too because it was also kind of investigating how far Boro would go to play my personal psychologist and how he'd do it and I think (I hope! :p) he wouldn't have had the heart to go so far if he was evil and knew I was not.

Rikae threatened to take Mac with her. Did Mac guess she'd not do it, was he thinking the risk is worth taking, or is he innocent after all?

I'm mightily amused by the fact that Boro and Mac voted the same person. :D

To be honest, I'm not sure I see the case on Sally or Gwath. And I really don't feel comfortable that they're our only real lynch possibilities with half an hour till deadline.If the three of them were wolves together, this would be an incredibly bold thing to say, and I don't think Shasta'd say it.

Then again....bah I'm torn on voting him because I know that it would partially be to save myself. Then again I know that I'm not a wolf, whereas I dont' know what he is, and I'm not willing to take that risk.I found this comment extremely weird. What did you mean, Sally?

I don't get why Shasta continues advocating re-lynching Greenie after it was explained by several people how silly it'd be.

And that's it... I think I could make a good old list.


edit: xed with Nerwen x2 and Zil

[Thinlómien]

But yes, I think it was very useful too because it was also kind of investigating how far Boro would go to play my personal psychologist and how he'd do it and I think (I hope! ) he wouldn't have had the heart to go so far if he was evil and knew I was not.That is of course unless he's a wolf who thinks I'm a cobbler, a cobbler who thinks I'm a cobbler or a cobbler who thinks I'm a wolf.

[Nerwen]

For what it's worth, Rikae's last vote was for Izzy, though she seemed to be leaning toward a stronger suspicion of Mac.

Can you show me where Rikae voted Izzy? I was under the impression that she never switched from her original vote for Gwath.

[Inziladun]

So Gwath is an innocent then? It would have been a risky and idiotic move from the mutineers to try Rikae if Gwath was one of them aggressors.

I'm pretty well convinced Gwath is not a mutineer. If he was, I don't believe he would have missed the vote yesterDay. That doesn't seem like something the baddies can afford at this stage. Co-conspirator makes more sense to me.

[Inziladun]

Can you show me where Rikae voted Izzy? I was under the impression that she never switched from her original vote for Gwath.

Ah. You're right. That forehead slapping is contagious toDay. :rolleyes:
I was quickly scrolling through looking for her posts and I keyed on the one where she quoted Izzy voting herself.
A cup of coffee is in order now.

[Thinlómien]

The Living:

-Gangrenous Inziladun Jones ~ Pilot
I'm feeling pretty good about him at the moment. Still rather unsure.

-Pirate Boromir the Malformed ~ Gunner
Still thinking he's innocent. All there was before + the fact he thought the wolves killed Nogrod - I don't think he'd be unsporty enough to bluff like that especially as he's not under much suspicion. Of course, he could be a cobbler, so I'm still keeping my "yes, but" approach to him. ;)

-Shark Tooth Shasta ~ First mate
Confuses me more than anyone else as he keeps flip-flopping between good and evil. I'm not too worried yet.

-Snifflin’ Mac Sparrow ~ Cooper
LYNCH HIM!

-Almost-Blind Nerwen ~ Navigator/Sea Artist
A known innocent for the time being.

-Poop Deck Kath ~ Musician (Pipe)
I'm keeping both eyes on her and ready to attack once she arrives. :D Yes, that's true and it's rather silly. I have just got the idea she must be evil and I'm waiting for her to appear and prove it. :rolleyes: Well, in order to try to be more neutral: I'm wary of her.

-Cowerin' Gwath Slasher ~ Powder Monkey
Leaning more innocent now because of the discussion around him yesterDay.

-Ham-Hands Izzy ~ Striker
Not bothering to hide her cobblerism anymore.

-Short Ruth Mithril ~ Cook
I'm pretty safe with assuming she's innocent and that's why I'd like to see her more - she's one of the few I feel I may be able to trust.

-Stinkin' Eön Bloodbeard ~ Powder Monkey
Not ringing any alarm bells.


The Ghosted:

-Slippery McCabbie Dagger ~ Boatswain ~ danced the hempen jig
No way of knowing, but I remain pessimistic and assume he was innocent.

-Lil' Green the Staggering Drunk ~ Powder Monkey ~ drank up all the rum
I trust her word that she was the seer. Alas!

-Dancin' Mira Blythe ~ Striker ~ danced her way off the deck
I don't remember where I got the idea that she was actually a mutineer and now I'm kind of stuck with it... weird. But my official opinion is that we have no way of knowing.

-Whinin’ Eomer Bonny ~ Musician (Pur-loined Violin) ~ his pur-loined violin pur-loined him
An innocent as he was killed by the mutineers... just hoping he wasn't the ranger.

-High-Pitched Annu ~ Surgeon ~ halved by her own saw
Absolutely no idea.

-Stutterin’ Wilwa Scab ~ Cook ~ gave her heart to Davy Jones
Could've been anything.

-Legless Sally Dawkins ~ Carpenter ~ was shark bait for a day
Given her rather obscure and fishy comments all along the game, I'm inclined to think she was some sort of baddie.

-Puffy Shirt Rikae ~ Cabin Boy ~ was never fond of pointy objects
Our hunter whom I'm waiting to see around as a ghost very much.

-Pirate Nogrod the Fashionably Late ~ Gunner ~ had an unfriendly encounter with cold steel
I don't know. Could be anything. Is he truly an innocent who helps us giving a known innocent Rikae, or is he a cobbler/wolf who's trying to gain trust and cover his tracks?


If we're to lynch a ghost, my preferences would be 1) Sally, 2) Nogrod & 3) Mira or Annu.

If we're to lynch a living person, my preference is Mac. And my preference is that we lynch him and no ghost because he's a mutineer.


edit: xed with all the three posts

[Inziladun]

Now, assuming Rikae was indeed the Hunter, then it looks as if either the wolves felt they could afford to take a risk (i.e. we're doing badly), or they were fairly confident none of them would be picked last Night.

Just a careful suggestion then. She was quite definitively picking Gwath as her suspect yesterDay so one could presume he would be her hunt-target as well? So Gwath is an innocent then? It would have been a risky and idiotic move from the mutineers to try Rikae if Gwath was one of them aggressors.

The signs appear to point to a Mutineer Mac and a Conspirator Gwath.
With Rikae's vote for Gwath, it was a reasonable assumption for the mutineers that he would indeed be her pick for the Night as well. She'd been voicing some serious questions about Mac at the end of Day 4, and what better time to take her out than while her attention was focused on a (relative) innocent?

Inzil - I'm still wondering what to make of his "if Lommy isn't an aggressor, they might as well just kill Rikae" of yesterday. My first thought was that it was a cobbler pointing out to the baddies that I was probably bluffing about my pick, since it wouldn't serve my interests to be honest, in he guise of an ordo wondering why the hunter would announce a pick at all... now I'm wondering if it was an ordo's attempt to help me bluff, in spite of the earlier distrust... nah, now I'm spinning far-fetched theories Nogrod-style. :D Anyway, I'm inclined to think he's either a conspirator or an ordo.


I don't recall saying what she quotes me on at the first part of that, but I'll say now that her second theory about the drama between her and me is correct.
I was initially taken off guard by her reveal, and the first two or three of my questions to her were genuine. After that, though, it was really just a deliberately overblown act to see if anyone would come out of the woodwork and hop on the train. Gwath certainly rose to the challenge.

[Macalaure]

Alright, what do we have now?

Rikae and A Little Green are dead, but innocent.
Nerwen is at least not a mutineer, and so is Eomer, though he's dead, too.
Nogrod, Annu, and McCaber are dead and we don't know what they are.
(I'm ignoring the silenced Mira and Wilwa here.)

Who had more and who had less reason to be afraid of being Rikae's pick? Of course, even a mutineer at risk of being picked by her could still take the risk and kill her, but if we don't ask ourselves this question, then we learn nothing. I prefer the slightly risky assumption to nothing. (And before someone else brings it up I'll say it myself first - yes, this assumption conveniently puts me into the less suspicious box. So lynch me.)

Had reason to suspect being the hunter's pick:
Lommy, Kath, Gwath.

Had not (or not much):
Boromir, Mith, Eonwe, Nogrod, Shasta, Inziladun*, Izzy*

(* were suspected, but more of cobblery than wolfery, which means while Rikae thought them bad, she would probably not pick them)

The fact that the actual pick came from the second group make the assumption thin, but don't forget that the mutineers couldn't know this. My conclusion would be that the mutineer-density is higher in the second group than in the first. Especially if we assume that the mutineers have already been lessened in numbers (higher likelihood of missed kill), I'd have a hard time believing that there's more than one mutineer in the first list. (The one would be Gwath, I'd highly suspect.)


I know Macalaure knew she'd not have the nerve to pick him just yet.A definite "no" to that. And why do you say that you know it? :confused:

-Snifflin’ Mac Sparrow ~ Cooper
LYNCH HIM!I'm sure this comment will make you even more sure, but for what it's worth: Rikae tested me and concluded that someone else was still more suspicious than me. Why exactly did you reach a different conclusion? You don't explain, you only state. Can you give me a non-vague reason why you are so certain of me? I'm asking this hoping it will make up your mind, because I still think you're innocent (though it's possible you're a cobbler who figured out that I'm not a mutineer and wants to get me lynched now). Boro's innocent (if it really was innocent, of which I'm not really sure) fixation on Nogrod didn't help us one bit either.

I'm pretty well convinced Gwath is not a mutineer. If he was, I don't believe he would have missed the vote yesterDay.What makes you so convinced of that? Keep in mind that Gwath missed the entire Day yesterDay. Why couldn't he have missed the Night before, too?

The signs appear to point to a Mutineer Mac and a Conspirator Gwath.
With Rikae's vote for Gwath, it was a reasonable assumption for the mutineers that he would indeed be her pick for the Night as well.

Her strong suspicion of Gwath means that he was high on her list of possible picks, but it would be foolish for any mutineer to assume that he was definitely her pick. Also, she could easily have been more suspicious of someone else, but seeing that that someone else had no votes, she kept her vote on her good-enough suspect.

[Boromir88]

Well I don't make any schemes, I was mostly just saying stuff that I was thinking about.~Lommy
That is why you won't get past the "yes but..." :p, you call it scheming, that is such a negative word. It implies slippery and underhanded tricks. I know I'm innocent (not a wolf nor cobbler), you said you were innocent, and I wanted to see if I could believe you. That's not scheming, that's figuring out which of ye crew I can trust.

That is of course unless he's a wolf who thinks I'm a cobbler, a cobbler who thinks I'm a cobbler or a cobbler who thinks I'm a wolf.
Well now, you could be the wolf who thinks I'm the cobbler, a cobbler who thinks I'm the other, or a cobbler who thinks I'm a wolf. For someone who says she doesn't scheme, you sound capable at being able to sniff possible one's out.:p I wonder how? :D

[Boromir88]

Boro's innocent (if it really was innocent, of which I'm not really sure) fixation on Nogrod didn't help us one bit either.~Mac
Let's lynch him today and find out ;)

And can I ask you how I've been fixated on Nogrod? I said yesterday I suspected him, and the day before I was definitely 'fixated' on him..but since he was absent yesterday I pretty much left him alone and went after others. You being one of them.

Why don't you bring up Mith's desire to lynch Nogrod? I mean I find Mith really innocent, but I haven't been the only one interested in seeing Nogrod ghosted. Plus...it seems like some have a fixation on me, jumping on whatever I say and either disregarding it with a single phrase or saying it doesn't make any sense. *cough*Mac*cough* :p

[Macalaure]

And can I ask you how I've been fixated on Nogrod? I said yesterday I suspected him, and the day before I was definitely 'fixated' on him..but since he was absent yesterday I pretty much left him alone and went after others. You being one of them.True. Still, a lot of your thinking revolved around him (lynching McCaber twice or basing your suspicion of me on his role comes to mind).

Why don't you bring up Mith's desire to lynch Nogrod? I mean I find Mith really innocent, but I haven't been the only one interested in seeing Nogrod ghosted. Plus...it seems like some have a fixation on me, jumping on whatever I say and either disregarding it with a single phrase or saying it doesn't make any sense. *cough*Mac*cough* :pI'm only jumping on a relatively small percentage of what you say. You just talk so much. :p Percentage-wise, I commented on much more of Gwath's yesterday's posts than on yours. :smokin: And as I said before, I'm not yet convinced of what you are. I'm not pursuing your lynch.

[Mithalwen]

Hi, I am here and will resist the distractions as much as possible (I had to watch Jolly Roger Federer play I am afraid ). Um if we are going to rekill anyone today migh tbe the day.... If we haven't hit any mutineers yet then we don't have long beofr the numbers are potentially equalled.

[Rikae]

Oh Mac, this time you can't gloat freely - I can haunt you. :p

I'm sure this comment will make you even more sure, but for what it's worth: Rikae tested me and concluded that someone else was still more suspicious than me.

Yeah, someone more suspicious - meaning Gwath - but you were still in my top, oh, four...

As for Nogrod, I figured if the aggressors chose to kill me, it probably was because the suspicions I voiced were wrong, do I killed someone who would have little reason to fear me - still, that's far from certain, especially if (as I fear is the case) all four wolves are alive - they might have thought the los of one was a risk worth taking.

It's possible you're 11 with 6 evil, which would mean you've already lost, if the baddies can but coordinate their efforts (not to be a morbid voice from beyond the grave... in the Barrow Downs, no less... but I just thought I should point that out). Even without the cobblers - if all the wolves are alive, you have one more day. DOOM!!!! REPENT!!!

Oh, and I wanted to say "give my regards to Davy Jones" sometime, and now it doesn't make sense. Curses.

[Nerwen]

still, that's far from certain, especially if (as I fear is the case) all four wolves are alive - they might have thought the loss of one was a risk worth taking.

That's what I'm afraid of, and it's why I don't think we can simply rule out Gwath or Mac just because you suspected them.

Or Izzy, for that matter. However, her posting toDay looks both evil (continuing with her plan to throw suspicion around) and non-wolvish (was apparently taken aback to find you lynched). But she could be faking that, or the surprise could have been at finding Nogrod dead instead of someone more likely.

EDIT: Or Lommy– forgot about her.

[Nogrod]

especially if (as I fear is the case) all four wolves are alive - they might have thought the los of one was a risk worth taking.

It's possible you're 11 with 6 evil, which would mean you've already lost, if the baddies can but coordinate their effortsSadly I do share your pessimism Rikae...

I don't believe Mac and Boro are both innocents. And I doubt they both are mutineers.

Lommy is giving me the creeps right now. She's, well how should one say it, careless or jubilant - and confident? (if all the mutineers are alive she has reason to be jubilant and confident)

And this caught my eye as well looking at the posting of late: The signs appear to point to a Mutineer Mac and a Conspirator Gwath.That came right after Lommy had made her cases basically just telling us that Mac is a mutineer and he should be lynched. And Inzil was also quick to name Gwath a co-conspie rather than innocent, which is an interesting decision - although I admit I haven't yet read all that happened in the past two Days and maybe there is reason for that deduction... But somehow her post jumped like being one where happy mutineers just try to make it safe and bring the victory home quite soon.

Okay, getting ghosted kind of lessens one's motivation and inspiration to play full-time as there is no thrills of fighting for one's life and solving the mysteries together with others. And why make a loads of work just to be disregarded by enough many convincing mutineers?

On another, though relating issue, I'm not sure if lynching a ghost is reasonable politics - unless it's a double-lynch. But the double-lynches are generally quite risky as it would require co-ordination of all - well at least those present at the end of the Day. There we might run the risk of just lynching the ghost and missing a possible mutineer (a fellow mutineer might just hang around in the end and vote "wrongly" just by "accident"... and all that - with no knowledge we just can't deduce anything from it etc.).

I'm quite ready to be double-killed but you should also consider at least Greenie. If she bluffs a many things will be different (I tend towards trusting her revelation though as there have been no competing claims and it would be about time for the "real spy" to step forwards if there is one).

[satansaloser2005]

Um....Nog, darling....


No double lynches. In the case of a tie, the first to reach the most votes will be lynched.



So no double lynch.

[Nerwen]

-Poop Deck Kath ~ Musician (Pipe)
I'm keeping both eyes on her and ready to attack once she arrives. :D Yes, that's true and it's rather silly. I have just got the idea she must be evil and I'm waiting for her to appear and prove it. :rolleyes: Well, in order to try to be more neutral: I'm wary of her.

Jog my memory, please (it's late here in the Antipodes): what has Kath done? You suspect her, Rikae suspects her... and I can't remember a single thing she's said this game.

[satansaloser2005]

Jog my memory, please (it's late here in the Antipodes): what has Kath done? You suspect her, Rikae suspects her... and I can't remember a single thing she's said this game.

I kept assuming she was dead, which is why I was surprised to find out that she wasn't. She's often a Night kill, so why's she still around? Heh, I was going to point this out yesterDay but was busy until it was too late to do anything toward a Kath lynch anyway.



By the way, don't bother to double kill me. Well, you can, but it'd be a waste. I can guarantee you all I'm not a mutineer, and I'm leaving in four days anyway. Just putting that out there so we don't waste lynches.

[Nerwen]

I'm quite ready to be double-killed but you should also consider at least Greenie. If she bluffs a many things will be different (I tend towards trusting her revelation though as there have been no competing claims and it would be about time for the "real spy" to step forwards if there is one).

In other words, it's a waste unless we get a rival claim.

EDIT:X'd with Sally.

[Inziladun]

And this caught my eye as well looking at the posting of late: That came right after Lommy had made her cases basically just telling us that Mac is a mutineer and he should be lynched. And Inzil was also quick to name Gwath a co-conspie rather than innocent, which is an interesting decision - although I admit I haven't yet read all that happened in the past two Days and maybe there is reason for that deduction... But somehow her post jumped like being one where happy mutineers just try to make it safe and bring the victory home quite soon.

My reasoning for Gwath being a conspirator rather than a mutineer was mainly based on the fact that Rikae had voted for him yesterDay, and if he was a real baddy it would seem to be a bold move, going after Rikae when there appeared to be a good chance she was targeting him as well. Of course, the mutineers wouldn't have known who she targeted, but the fact that Gwath was so suspected by her would seem to make that too much of a risk for a Mutineer Gwath to have taken.

[Nerwen]

Well, I have to vote now, so–

++Gwath.

[satansaloser2005]

Oh, and for what it's worth I'll get stuck into that vote tally now. I was a bit tired last night and had things to do, but I'll get to it asap.



ETA: Heh, I just noticed that I'm at the top of Lommie's 'lynch a ghost' list. I hadn't seen that post when I made my comment about not killing me, because I....well, it was long and I just wanted to put a thought or two in so I skipped it. Anyway, my comment was unrelated. Back to work now. :)

[Boromir88]

I hate to not share the pessimism...but sally is definitely up to something, and it's not innocent looking.

And I wonder if Nogrod is attempting his Day 1 wonderings about a ghosted mutineer still trying to influence by appearing helpful. Interesting coincidence. :rolleyes:

So anyway, not sure why some are so doomy and gloomy

[Inziladun]

Another thought about Gwath- didn't he miss the vote yesterDay? In fact, I don't remember seeing him at all, and there was apparently no explanation for his absence. Would a wolf do that at this late stage?

[Boromir88]

Another thought about Gwath- didn't he miss the vote yesterDay? In fact, I don't remember seeing him at all, and there was apparently no explanation for his absence. Would a wolf do that at this late stage?

Maybe, maybe not...I've seen it from others, it just depends on the mate.

Although I think now is a good time to double-kill and get some information. It may at least give us an idea of what we are up against, and see just how pessimistic we really should be.

Sally looks like she's having fun and being silly...not sure that's a good sign.

But I think you know where I stand. If not Mac could tell you :p

[Mithalwen]

That is just Kath though isn't it? Kath to an extent is suspicious just because she is Kath ..especially with her record of being killed early as an ordo...

[Mithalwen]

Another thought about Gwath- didn't he miss the vote yesterDay? In fact, I don't remember seeing him at all, and there was apparently no explanation for his absence. Would a wolf do that at this late stage?

The woves missed a kill - this may have been a ploy though not one all mods would allow (observation not criticism nb). If it weren't a ploy this suggests a certain level of disorganisation/ absenteeism among the pack. I hope that we may have disposed of one at least but we can't bank on it.

[Kath]

And I'm back at last. Apologies for yesterDay, apparently green on a black screen does not agree with lightheadedness! So, I'm off to read through yesterDay and toDay so far, have some dinner, then post!

[satansaloser2005]

And I'm back at last. Apologies for yesterDay, apparently green on a black screen does not agree with lightheadedness! So, I'm off to read through yesterDay and toDay so far, have some dinner, then post!

Look! She comes when she's called! :p

[Thinlómien]

The signs appear to point to a Mutineer Mac and a Conspirator Gwath.
With Rikae's vote for Gwath, it was a reasonable assumption for the mutineers that he would indeed be her pick for the Night as well. She'd been voicing some serious questions about Mac at the end of Day 4, and what better time to take her out than while her attention was focused on a (relative) innocent? How does this make sense? First you say Mac is a mutineer, then you refer to him when saying Rikae's attention was focused on a relative innocent. And none of it explains why Gwath is a conspirator.

And why do you say that you know it?Because I can read your thoughts. ;) No, not really, I don't know why, but I'm just dead certain you're evil. I have a gut-feeling and I have reasons, and of course when I'm firmly in the belief that you're a mutineer I can explain everything from that persepctive (so criticism towards me is always welcome). But really, I'm just sure of it. I will apologise greatly after the game if I was wrong here, but really, you're just so evil it hurts. :p

Can you give me a non-vague reason why you are so certain of me?Yes, sir. I was thinking of making a post that explains why I think you're evil all in one post, and I will make it as soon as possible, but before that I won't repeat my arguments.

For someone who says she doesn't scheme, you sound capable at being able to sniff possible one's out. I wonder how? My refrainment (sp?) from scheming does not mean that I'd be unacquainted with or uncapable of such art. ;)

It's possible you're 11 with 6 evil, which would mean you've already lost, if the baddies can but coordinate their efforts (not to be a morbid voice from beyond the grave... in the Barrow Downs, no less... but I just thought I should point that out). Even without the cobblers - if all the wolves are alive, you have one more day. DOOM!!!! REPENT!!! I'm optimistic enough to think we have taken down one of them already (Sally probably) but in case you're right this is not the time for lynching a ghost.

Lommy is giving me the creeps right now. She's, well how should one say it, careless or jubilant - and confident? (if all the mutineers are alive she has reason to be jubilant and confident)I'm far from careless, not jubilant until this game is over (and not even then if we're going to lose like it looks like) but I'm confident. I'm confident that Mac is a mutineer. And you, on the other hand, were probably a cobbler and are now trying to cause chaos by pretending to be sensible. (Suggesting a Greenie lynch and ignoring all the counter-arguments is about the most cobblerish thing you can do.)

Jog my memory, please (it's late here in the Antipodes): what has Kath done? You suspect her, Rikae suspects her... and I can't remember a single thing she's said this game.Nothing. A few lists. I think she voted Annu at some point. That's it. But I'm scared of her because she's always so sneaky and I have no way to catch her now that the roles are hidden! And I have come to think of quite many people in this crew as innocents, so I don't have much possible mutineers on my list except Kath and that's why I'm wary of her and looking forward to seeing what she'll say or do. And like I said, some of my suspicion is rather irrational "it must be her" stuff.

She's often a Night kill, so why's she still around? Heh, I was going to point this out yesterDay but was busy until it was too late to do anything toward a Kath lynch anyway.What kind of logic is this?? I tell y'all, Sally sure wasn't totally innocent.


edit: xed with the last four

[Inziladun]

How does this make sense? First you say Mac is a mutineer, then you refer to him when saying Rikae's attention was focused on a relative innocent. And none of it explains why Gwath is a conspirator.

I refer you to the second part of my post you quoted, as well as

My reasoning for Gwath being a conspirator rather than a mutineer was mainly based on the fact that Rikae had voted for him yesterDay, and if he was a real baddy it would seem to be a bold move, going after Rikae when there appeared to be a good chance she was targeting him as well. Of course, the mutineers wouldn't have known who she targeted, but the fact that Gwath was so suspected by her would seem to make that too much of a risk for a Mutineer Gwath to have taken.

and

Another thought about Gwath- didn't he miss the vote yesterDay? In fact, I don't remember seeing him at all, and there was apparently no explanation for his absence. Would a wolf do that at this late stage?

[satansaloser2005]

*buzzer*

Quite wrong, Lommie dearest. By lynching me you missed a chance yesterDay to lynch a wolf. If only I'd gotten my vote in before Shasta's....



I'm quite uncomfortable with Dun right now, but I'm not really sure why. I'll have a go at him later and see what I see.


By the way, I'm a bit confused/curious. Can someone be killed their second time at Night, or just by lynch? (For instance if someone had all the wolves pegged and it worried the pack could the pack kill them again to shut them up?) It wouldn't be common but I was just wondering. Sorry for the Chekhov moment.



EDIT: x'd with Dun Dun Dun....

[Macalaure]

Oops, I've been thinking all the time that we could double-kill someone dead and someone living on the same day. Now that I know that we can only lynch one in any case, the double-kill option looks a lot less appealing. We should only double-kill someone if we really can get information out of his role - no matter whether he's good or evil. I don't see one right now - not Greenie, nor McCaber, nor Sally, nor Nogrod. Sorry.

Because I can read your thoughts. :p*makes himself aluminum foil hat* ;)

Yes, sir. I was thinking of making a post that explains why I think you're evil all in one post, and I will make it as soon as possible, but before that I won't repeat my arguments.Looking forward to that.

[Macalaure]

By the way, even though he's my top suspect, I don't think lynching Gwath is a good idea, since he might get modfired anyway. If he suddenly appears, we can still lynch him tomorrow.

[Nogrod]

And I wonder if Nogrod is attempting his Day 1 wonderings about a ghosted mutineer still trying to influence by appearing helpful. Interesting coincidence. :rolleyes:I can also do other things than play this... which would suit you just fine, wouldn't it? :p

And you, on the other hand, were probably a cobbler and are now trying to cause chaos by pretending to be sensible. (Suggesting a Greenie lynch and ignoring all the counter-arguments is about the most cobblerish thing you can do.)
Just a moment... "pretending to be sensible"? :)

But no, I didn't suggest Greenie-lynch unless it would be a double-lynch - and Sally already corrected me with the "no double-lynch" -policies of the game. Go back and see for yourself. I said lynching ghosts is not the way to go unless they are double-lynches (regretably not an option I see now).

We're short of information and would hunger for it, but which information would be valuable enough to waste a lynch? You guys have tried already earlier to make us not use our only weapon! You scoundrels!

[Mithalwen]

By the way, even though he's my top suspect, I don't think lynching Gwath is a good idea, since he might get modfired anyway. If he suddenly appears, we can still lynch him tomorrow.

Good point ..do we have anoy other potential modfirees?

[satansaloser2005]

I can also do other things than play this... which would suit you just fine, wouldn't it? :p

Just a moment... "pretending to be sensible"? :)

But no, I didn't suggest Greenie-lynch unless it would be a double-lynch - and Sally already corrected me with the "no double-lynch" -policies of the game. Go back and see for yourself. I said lynching ghosts is not the way to go unless they are double-lynches (regretably not an option I see now).

We're short of information and would hunger for it, but which information would be valuable enough to waste a lynch? You guys have tried already earlier to make us not use our only weapon! You scoundrels!

Hehe. Thus says our favorite co-conspirator. I'd say this situation's turning out just peachy, but it's certainly not. That and I'm more of an apple person.



I'd love to (watch you guys) lynch a ghost and get some information, yet at the same time I'm not sure you can afford it. The most useful identity may be Nogrod's, because (assuming I understand the conditions of Rikae's role correctly) he's obviously some shade of evil, and it could be useful to know if he's just a cobbler, who is a blind wolf more or less, or a proper wolf who would know his fellows and therefore maybe leave a trail. Still, is it worth the risk?


ETA: x'd with the Grey Queen ;)

[Rikae]

Gwath
Kath
Lommy
Mac

KILL KILL KILL

That is all.

:D

[satansaloser2005]

Gwath
Kath
Lommy
Mac

KILL KILL KILL

That is all.

:D


By the way, why are you now green? Or were you before and I just didn't notice?

[Rikae]

By the way, why are you now green?

http://twitter.com/#search?q=%23iranelection

[satansaloser2005]

http://twitter.com/#search?q=%23iranelection



Gotcha.



*runs from the skwerls*


ETA: Cookies for the first person to guess why my new icon is what it is. That is all.

[Rikae]

As for suspecting Kath, she's been lying low, but what she has done (see "word twisting" post on day 1) seems geared toward stirring up controversy without being caught in the middle of it - a decidedly wolfish move.

EDIT: Sally: what does the text say? My vision isn't that good.

[satansaloser2005]

As for suspecting Kath, she's been lying low, but what she has done (see "word twisting" post on day 1) seems geared toward stirring up controversy without being caught in the middle of it - a decidedly wolfish move.

EDIT: Sally: what does the text say? My vision isn't that good.

Honestly -and I feel awful saying this, but it's true- I suspect her because she's still alive. Don't get me wrong, I love playing with the dear girl but normally she's wolf chow. Of course it could be a plot to set her up, so I don't know.



(It says 'curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal'. I know, the text is a bit small, but it covered part of the character otherwise. Yay Firefly/Doctor Who!)

[Kath]

Here til about half 11 (my time) now, will be posting on and off as I catch up.

So before anything else I think I'll answer Rikae as I didn't get a chance to before about the twisting words thing. This is where it came from.

Shasta posted this:
Arr, what be the particklar pros 'n cons o' exorcisin A Little Drunk fer good 'n all? Belike 'n I don' wonder if'n discov'rin the wench's true ident-watchacallit cud on'y be good fer us!

From which I gathered: what do people thing the pros and cons of double-lynching Greenie would be, good just for us or good for the wolves too?

Rikae then said:
Shasta, that be treacherous talk. Arr, I see no point in double lynchin' anybody until doin' so is likely to give us some really useful information. We double lynch Greenie, and we're either rid o' a cobbler (who can't do much harm now anyway) but don't know anythin', or we have proved Nerwen's innocence, but later in th' game, a double lynch o' th' right person will probably benefit us a lot more. I thought ye were bein' framed by th' aggressors, but now I be havin' second thoughts. Arrr.

Which I thought was a good list of cons, but that the 'treacherous talk' business was a bit odd.

Annu then jumped on to that, quoting the 'treacherous talk' bit with:
Aye, me notions exactly! Try an' state yer reasons better fer double lynching Greenie, Shasta, or ye be makin' me more suspicious o' ye.

This I think is where I got the 'twisting words' from, because Shasta never actually said 'lets lynch Greenie again' yet that's what seemed to get later said. I think though that it was actually Annu who was twisting words rather than Rikae, but because Annu quoted Rikae I had assumed they were making the same point.

[Kath]

Right, let's have a look at the end of the Day where Rikae revealed because I missed that entirely. Think the reactions might be interesting.

Inzil - reacted with suspicion, said he didn't think Rikae was close enough to being lynched to need to reveal. Continues to question her. Votes Rikae. Does seem very, very certain that Rikae isn't telling the truth. I'd have wondered if he was the real Hunter trying to counter claim without actually coming out and saying it, but from the later narrations this is obviously not the case. So either a cobbler trying to cause confusion or an innocent who really didn't like the reveal!

Lommy - seems unsure over Rikae, basically ignores her for a bit.

Boro - defends her against Inzil. Says he trusted Rikae because of something he picked up earlier in the game.

Rikae - defends herself against Inzil, also says (apparently untruthfully) who she will be hunting. Interesting plan to almost throw out names to see the reactions. Don't think anyone really bothered defending either of the two names. But then it might be hard to separate whether those who didn't want her lynched were trying to save her or save the person she said she'd take with her, especially since unless there's a competing reveal the usual reaction to a reveal is to save the gifted. Looks like she believes her reveal has outed Inzil. From the posts after the reveal she says Gwath is evil, Izzy is a cobbler and Inzil might be, and sally looks ... just not a wolf or actually innocent, not sure.

sally - oh didn't see that before. sally said she was the protector. Oh, no she didn't ... apparently. :confused:

Izzy - there have actually been a couple of times when I've agreed with her about Nerwen possibly being a bit fishy. There was a point where she threw a new lynch candidate in when there were really too many already. Greenie did say she didn't know whether she was innocent or a cobbler. That said, since we don't know the roles after death and so don't know how many if any wolves we've lynched so far going for a cobbler is pointless.

Gwath - had some suspicion of Rikae for voting for the person she said she was hunting. The way Rikae phrased the point was odd but if the Hunter thought they were going to be killed and had someone they actually thought suspicious enough to take with them, surely they should vote for that person because if they weren't killed they would want that person lynched anyway because they think them wolvish.

Hmm, I would say from all that Boro looks pretty good. He had clearly picked up on Rikae potentially being gifted early on and had kept quiet about it. Inzil is an interesting case. Izzy (I think) said that he'd fake revealed before which might explain his automatic suspicion. He kept the disbelief up pretty consistently, which is why I can't decide between cobbler and innocent. Izzy's attempt to add a person to the suspicion list who can only be cobbler or innocent (if you believe Greenie was the seer) is a bit suspicious.

OK, posting this then looking at Day 4. Is anyone apart from me at risk from modfire toDay by the way?

[satansaloser2005]

Is anyone apart from me at risk from modfire toDay by the way?



Gwath is as well.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

In case anyone wants to lynch a ghost toDay, here's a list:

Known non-wolves (Night-killed)
A Little Green (claimed Protector)
Eomer
Rikae (Avenger) – only ghost whose role is definitely known

Unknown (Lynched/mod-fired/hunted)
McCaber
Mira
Annu
Wilwa
Sally
Nogrod

EDIT: X'd with Zil.

Greenie claimed Seer. Not Protector.


I don't get why Shasta continues advocating re-lynching Greenie after it was explained by several people how silly it'd be.

Oh? Really, Lommy? Is that what happened?

(Beg pardon, I'm in an extremely vile mood today.)

[Mithalwen]

Sorry this is bewildering me but with the strong possibility of modfire... I don't normally aim for cobblers but given how uncertain things are..it seems that Issy is not on the side of the angels the rest of you are too confusing. With things so tight losing a conspirator will at least prevent a pro-agressor vote

++Isabellkya

[Kath]

So, the Day I missed entirely! A missed kill is odd. I don't think I've ever been in a game in which wolves have deliberately forgone a kill as someone mentioned. I think you'd have to have some very bold wolves to try that one. So I would guess either timezone based communication problems or an absent wolf was the cause there.

Inzil - begins by 'explaining not defending' his vote. It seems tone was a prevailing factor and I can see that. You have to remember sometimes just how people 'speak'. Rikae, Gwath, some others have quite an aggressive style that can sometimes cause over the top reactions from others.

sally - suggests wilwa might have been the kill anyway. Seems unlikely. The wolves surely want to kill as many as possible. If they knew wilwa was going to be killed why would they have gone for her? Or was wilwa a last minute pull out?

Eonwe - seems to agree with sally. Pretty much exactly actually. And then says nothing has happened. Oh I'm sure you could have found SOMEthing to comment on Eonwe? :rolleyes: Does say Nerwen could potentially be a cobbler. Quite a few people coming to that conclusion it seems.

Lommy - ah it was her that suggested the apparent missed kill was deliberate. Also gets a little bit 'meta' in that it does become easy to suspect those who weren't around if you think it was a missed kill. Says Boro and Mac are just assuming that they 'know' the Hunter's picks, seems to find Mac more suspicious. Lots of reasoning for suspecting Mac. At least some people are putting their reasoning in!

Mac - suspicious of Gwath and Inzy but not much in the way of reasoning. Suspicion of Izzy but again no reasoning.

Boro - suggests it might be worth double killing since the wolves missed a trick. I'm not sure what he's trying to get at here. He says that the wolves have been killing their 'cover' as in the quiet players and so we might want to double lynch a quiet player to learn if one of them was a wolf I think, but I'd have thought that if the wolves were lynching quiet players they're more likely to be loudmouths because their 'cover' would actually be the louder players.

Rikae - ah my if she hadn't been shown to be the Hunter I would be suspicious of her! Now she's suggesting double killing after that utter refusal to consider it before. All out for slips toDay, she found a possible one from Lommy there, think Lommy just phrased it badly though.

Nerwen - says if the kill was deliberately missed then either sally, Gwath or Lommy is a wolf because they'd have considered killing her too much a risk. Fine, but then why wouldn't they have just killed someone else?

Mith - huh, really haven't heard much from Mith. Would assume she's a busy innocent as I've not noticed anything to make me think otherwise.

Shasta - this time actually does advocate a double kill! Hmm, says he agrees with Lommy but I think Lommy was *headdesking* by this point about people assuming wilwa was innocent so she might not have appreciated it.

Izzy - votes herself, apparently in annoyance. This I think could definitely be a cobbler tactic.

Waaaait one second - we DON'T know Rikae was the Hunter? I just read the narration and from it and Brinn's little note could it maybe have been the other way round? Well ... well that just changes everything! Ugh and I thought this couldn't get any more confusing. Right, I'm going to assume it was Rikae. Just because the thought of going back over all of yesterDay again fills me with dread.

Going on to toDay now.

PS: As for no mutineers and it all being a dirty trick? lmp has copyright on that from the original ATM RPG. :D

[Mithalwen]

or they are dead ala Fea's game where she kept us in the dark...

[satansaloser2005]

A possible slip, anyway. Not quite on the order of, say, Agan's last game... but I'd certainly be interested to hear Sally's explanation.

Interesting that you should use that as an example, since I was killed by a Nerwen-led wolf pack. I'm just saying.


As well as looking at those who do not post very frequently, we should look at those who have been away (like Nogrod). And this all verges on the edge of what is fair play and what is playing on out-of-game reasons (it would be easy to start checking who has posted on the 'Downs during the Night phase etc).

Besides, it can also be misleading. Imagine I - a rather active player who was online on the 'Downs yesterday - was a mutineer. The deadline happens to be 7am my time. Imagine my fellows are Americans who have their most active hours after I go to bed in the evening. What do I do? Probably send my suggestions on who to kill to my mates before I go to sleep and trust them to send the kill to the mod. They are all so called not-so-frequently posting people and they miss the kill (say, one is dead, one appears a few hours before the DL, sees the last one hasn't posted, sends a PM and leaves it up to them, and they don't turn up at all because of some unexpected hindrances). Now, by your logic, it would easy to say that I'm not likely someone to miss the kill, although it is exactly what happened in this example scenario. So, summa summarum, no use making hasty conclusions.


Excuse me, gentlemen, but just how on earth do you expect the mutineers to know Rikae's pick?

Mac, you expect the mutineers to have reached the same conclusion about Rikae's possible picks and furthermore, you expect your guesses to be correct. Ever heard of a bluffing hunter? You think too simply for me to be comfortable with you. And you assuming the mutineers to think like you looks like your pack had a nice chat last Night. ;)

Boro - what on earth do you think we gain from knowing whom Rikae really hunted? The mutineers didn't know it either. Whether Rikae really hunted me or just threatened to wouldn't have affected their choice of action, because they had no way of knowing whom Rikae hunted. It doesn't incriminate me any more if Rikae really hunted me or not, what matters is that she threatened to. But there's no way a mutineer-me would have known whether she was bluffing or not, or a mutineer-anyone else would have known it. So, in short, the mutineers couldn't have just acted blindly on the assumption that Rikae hunted me, nor could they have chosen to attack or not attack her based on whom she hunted because they didn't know it.

Huh, you two confuse me.


edit: xed with Rikae

Liked Lommie's thoughts here on the 'quiet people miss the kill' theory. Besides, even the loudest people can miss a kill. Or it could be like the most recent game in which I was a wolf (Lommie's, to be exact) and someone didn't want to send in a kill without checking it over with their mates.

Also, I want to know the same thing; why do people assume that the wolfiekinses could channel Rikae's brain or something? Unless it's Mac that we're talking about, and even then it'd be sketchy.

I thought Rikae was pretty serious it would be sally if she was lynched, and you at night, considering the circumstances she was in and the threat of being lynched. Of course she could have been bluffing the night selection and the mutineers would have no way of knowing who she was really hunting, but if they feared one of their own was someone being hunted they wouldn't want to kill her. If they thought she was hunting an innocent they would. Simple as that.

I took who she said she was going to hunt as not a bluff, and well...maybe the mutineers did too.

It wouldn't be the first time that none of us were...our Cap'n might enjoy watching the loudmouths lynch off eachother after tension builds and the first few days. If you feel I'm innocent, than trust it, don't let your feelings that it's "illogical" that none of the loudmouths are wolves to cloud your judgement of who you feel is innocent or not.

But look at the night kills...Greenie and Eomer, two players who are thoughtful voters, but were less active on this ship. Why wouldn't they kill off the loudmouths, why would they kill off their cover? And look at our lynches...McCaber, Mira, and Annu...how successful have we been? I don't know, maybe the time is right to check one of them. We could end up with some real information if we lynch one of those 3 again.

This will get me in trouble, but I don't care at this point...I wouldn't have passed up a night kill. I would have thought that would exonerate me completely. :rolleyes:

But, I should say Lommy, your last post looks pretty innocent because it is so flippy-floppy :p. If that makes any sense. I could tear it apart for all the inconsistencies in there, but that actually makes you look better.

I'm oddly concerned by all this theorizing about why the wolfies killed Rikae. She lied about her picks so it's conceivable that the wolves picked up on it and knew that she wouldn't be hunting who she said she was. She is Rikae after all.

I dunno about the quiet killing off the loud being so unbelievable either. Isn't that more or less what happened in Gollum's game?

Even if Gwath or Sally is a mutineer? They might have considered it too much of a risk. They couldn't have known for sure who Rikae would pick.

I think it's safe to say that if the baddies failed to send in the kill on purpose, it would mean at least one of those three (Gwath, Lommy & Sally) is probably guilty.

EDIT: X'd since Boro at #450; clarification.

Erm, I think I should be insulted at this, but I'm not sure. So since the baddies forgot to send in a kill Lommie, Gwath, and/or I must be guilty? That makes no sense. I've never missed a kill, ever; I usually try to wait for confirmation that the kill's been sent or I send it myself. This really looks like Nerwen trying to start trouble for the three of us without anything to base it on.

Actually, I was hunting Kath yesterDay. I just wanted to see how people would react to a Sally-kill.

Hmm. I don't really like the way you latch on to the idea that none of us are evil - shows an awful lot of certainty wrt Mac, Nog, etc.

I'd rather lynch Gwath toDay, and try the double-lynch toMorrow.

One reason not to kill anyone... it's been done before.

This isn't really admissable since there's no double lynch, but this is what I meant by lying about her picks; it's probably for the good of the village but people would expect her to be honestly dishonest. Know what I mean?

Well, at the risk of being Captain Obvious, it certainly looks as if it can't be Gwath and Sally.

Why Kath, though?

Well since I'm dead you know who to go after next then, don't you, precious?

or they are dead ala Fea's game where she kept us in the dark...

Heh, heh, I need to read that game again. That was flipping awesome.

[Boromir88]

Waaaait one second - we DON'T know Rikae was the Hunter? I just read the narration and from it and Brinn's little note could it maybe have been the other way round?~Kath
Plus Nogrod said he was an ordo...but that well I don't believe. ;)

He says that the wolves have been killing their 'cover' as in the quiet players and so we might want to double lynch a quiet player to learn if one of them was a wolf I think, but I'd have thought that if the wolves were lynching quiet players they're more likely to be loudmouths because their 'cover' would actually be the louder players.
Let me explain the confusion...no that will take too long so I'll sum up :p

As far as double-killing anyone I gave a good amount of consideration to the people lynched (I'm not interested in those who were killed by the wolves, because I doubt they will turn up much benefit, we already know they aren't wolves, so what would be the point? All we could really try and figure out is why the wolves killed them and that would be difficult). So, I would consider any of the lynches (or avenger's kill - Nogrod), quiet or loud, for a double kill.

What I was trying to do, but I probably didn't phrase it well, was to start getting the "loudmouths" to be suspected, because we have already lynched several quieter pirates, and the wolf kills have been after the same. Except last night, with Rikae, but the wolves probably felt they had to get her out of sooner rather than later.

[satansaloser2005]

Rikae-->Gwath at 11:11am
Nerwen-->Gwath at 1:58pm
Mith-->Sally at 5:35pm
Lommie-->Sally at 6:27pm
Izzy-->Izzy at 6:30pm:rolleyes:
Steve-->Sally at 6:46pm
Dun-->Sally at 7:08pm
Boro-->Gwath at 9:54pm
Mac-->Gwath at 10:14pm
Shasta-->Sally at 10:59pm:(
Sally-->Gwath at 11:00pm

Didn't vote: Kath, Gwath, Nog


Sorry it took me so long. Major multitasking. :)

[Kath]

And toDay.

I'm very confused about how Izzy acted right after narration. If she hadn't read it, why post anything about it? Why answer the other's questions if she didn't know the details?

Nerwen has a fair point that the wolves must have felt pretty confident that Rikae was wrong, not sure who that puts in a good light. Inzil? Izzy? Gwath?

Well Nog says he was innocent so Rikae was the Hunter. If he was the Hunter I think he would have revealed after death. Thinks her death may put Gwath in a good light. Suspicion of Lommy for being too happy and Inzil for following Lommy. Whatever Lommy is I think this makes Inzil look bad.

Lommy seems pretty focused on Mac. He knew she wouldn't pick him, says Lommy. I find this a pretty intense statement as it requires being certain of not just one persons mind but the minds of two people. I suppose though that once you feel certain of someone's guilt everthing points to them, I've certainly felt that in the past. I can't see why she brings up Shasta again. She asks why he continues to advocate Greenie's re-lynching but so far as I can see he hasn't mentioned it so far toDay. List post - seems to have Mac, me and Izzy down as evil. Ah Lommy misread Inzil's point as well, took me a few minutes to work it out!

Inzil - thinks Gwath more likely a cobbler than a wolf as he missed the vote. I don't know, Gwath is pretty well known for disappearing isn't he? Don't know if he's done it with a role though. Has Mac down as a wolf - reasoning? Oh I see. Guess that kind of makes sense. Unless Gwath was her choice for that Day and she had to change it before the Night? Could do with some clarification from Rikae herself on that front I guess.

Mac why do you assume Eomer wasn't a mutineer? Can see your reasoning about the others but clearly missed that somewhere along the way. Thinks Gwath might be a mutineer.

Boro says Mac is jumping on him.

Seems Rikae did go for someone she thought would have no reason to fear her, so maybe the idea of those she did suspect looking slightly better holds some water.

sally has suspicion of me 'cause I'm still alive. Fair enough! I was mildly surprised but I guess I was passed over yesterDay for being ill, and that's when people usually start wanting to kill me.

About Gwath. If he doesn't turn up and he's going to be modfired, is this going to cause another huge argument about whether to just leave him to die or whether to lynch someone else ala Mira?

Shasta is going to get himself lynched if he doesn't tone himself down pretty quick. It is frustrating defending yourself over the same thing again and again but 'taking a tone' rarely helps! :D

Mith is going for Izzy - only thing is I don't recall seeing any explanation for suspicion there. I get why I'm suspicious of Izzy, and why others are, but I don't recall Mith mentioning any.

Caught up to the present now I think.

Hmm, going to have a think and then vote. Tis bedtime for me.

[Thinlómien]

++Macalaure

I'll be blunt. I want to vote before the bandwagons begin because of the simple reason that I feel that Mac is a mutineer and all the other mutineers know it and the cobblers guess it and they are just ignoring my case and I'm just fighting the windmills here... and if I vote late there will be no one to vote him with me. *shrugs*

My vote is liable to change if my case/research/whatever I'm going to do makes me think Mac is innocent after all.

Now, I'm off to comment everything that happened while I was away and then I'll make the long-awaited Mac-post.

[Kath]

Right, out of those who are still alive, thoughts.

So I think Nerwen and Izzy are likely to be our cobblers. Which makes me think Inzil is then more likely a wolf than a cobbler though I must say he does really strike me as more cobblerish. Nerwen can only be cobbler at worst so I guess I'd have to choose between Izzy and Inzil there.

I'll tell you who I'm worried about and that's Eonwe. Apart from me and Shasta (and I'm back now :D) he's the only person who seems to really be keeping a low profile. Came on with not a thing to say at one point. I mean, come on, even Izzy who had failed to read the narration managed to find something. :rolleyes:

Lommy I am pretty sure is innocent. The way she's speaking, the irrational surety, all smacks of a fixated innocent. Anyone remember Farael? Reminding me very much of him right now. Same with Mith, she isn't involved enough to be anything I don't think.

Which leaves me with Boro, Shasta, Mac and Gwath. I don't know what to do about Gwath. I am always tempted if we do have a modfire going on to vote for that person in order that we don't end up with two people dying on one Day. I for one have never really understood the suspicion around Shasta and still don't find him suspicious now so he won't get my vote.

I said before that the fighting between Boro and Mac was quite likely to mean one of them was a wolf. I don't know which. To be on the opposite side of the fence to Lommy, given that Rikae was suspicious of Mac before she was killed it would seem to put him in a better light. Yet Boro doesn't seem suspicious. I guess by elimination and by the fact that I do believe Mac might be a bold enough wolf to kill Rikae knowing he might go down with her I'd probably vote for him. That said, I am more inclined to vote Gwath because of the modfire.

Brinn are you around? Can you tell us what's happening about Gwath?

[Kath]

Well for me I think it's between Eonwe for sleeping under reindeer or whatever phrase we're using now, Mac because I think he's more likely a wolf than Boro, or Gwath not so much for a reason as there's been precious little to work with recently but because if he's going to be modfired then better only one person goes than two.

Hmm, I'm not confident that we've lynched enough wolves to be able to get away with more than one person dying toDay so:

++GWATH

And that's it from me.

[Isabellkya]

I'm not a Cobbler.

I've no qualms in claiming my role when I have one. If I was the type to fake-claim, I'd certainly have no qualms letting you all believe I was a Cobbler.

Interesting to see so many think I'm a Cobbler... because why?
I was "acting weird" or whatever?
News flash. Hasn't been the first time I've "acted weird", nor will be the last.

As I told Rikae. Most, if not all of the times someone(s) have called my lists "fabricated" - it is because they have nasty intentions. Once - I have fabricated a list. Guess what my role was that game - Ranger.

Nerwen. o.O I've made.. three posts before this one right here.
Rikae wasn't lynched - Sally was.

Interesting to see Sally be more active when a ghost, than before.

I also have no qualms saying what I want, and what I mean. I have nothing to hide.
If you have a question, it is preferable you ask me why I did what I did. Or do what I do.

Because no one can understand what I do, better than I. So taking an explanation from another person/party and accepting it as truth - is pretty darn ridiculous.


My first post - had nothing to do with the narration. Nor did I imply it did. I saw Nog dead - and then made my post. But question it all you want, you'll undoubtedly come to the very wrong conclusion.

What is this business about not posting anyways.
What, someone doesn't read the narration so they have no business posting?
Since when do the narrations hold ultimate guidance?


x'd with Kath.

[Thinlómien]

I think I'm mistaken about someone else, Kath seems pretty fine to me. *moves her from the "wary of" category to the "neutral" category*

Inzil - I got why Gwath is not a mutineer, but I still didn't get why he's a co-consp and not an ordo, for example.

Sally makes me wonder. Is she innocent after all since she's trying to help us, or is she just trying to play innocent? Gah. With all respect, Brinn, I hate this game. ;)

Just a moment... "pretending to be sensible"?Speaking in a reasonable tone but suggesting stupid stuff.

But no, I didn't suggest Greenie-lynch unless it would be a double-lynch - and Sally already corrected me with the "no double-lynch" -policies of the game. Go back and see for yourself. I said lynching ghosts is not the way to go unless they are double-lynches (regretably not an option I see now).
Okay I misunderstood then because it didn't occur to me you could mean traditional double-lynches with the word double-lynch since there aren't any in this game. And how many times do I have to repeat that lynching Greenie would be utter foolishness? We wouldn't gain anything except for a known innocent we semi-have already or get rid of a rather inactive dead cobbler AND we would reveal to the baddies whether the seer is still alive or not. Not wise at all.

By the way, why are you now green? Oh but she's just a little green. ;)

Oh? Really, Lommy? Is that what happened?
Okay I read this as advocating lynching her (looks like you're still for lynching her later, or?)
There are, of course, pros and cons to any plan. In hindsight, maybe we should wait to lynch A Little Green Ghost if and until we have a competing Seer-claim. I just intensely dislike having no concrete information whatsoever on which to base any decision. The most concrete evidence right now that I can see is that it's possible someone who was inactive or not here for some reason might be responsible for last night's no kill, but that's really close to metagaming and makes me uncomfortable.

And I'm getting rather cranky because I feel we're losing this game and I can do nothing to change it... grrr Macalaure I'm going to reveal all your dirty secrets now!


xed with 2x Kath & 1x Izzie

[A Little Green]

It's well past bedtime for this little (green) ghost.. Just a few thoughts, however, before I go to sleep and leave you to vote.

I don't know what to do about Gwath. I am always tempted if we do have a modfire going on to vote for that person in order that we don't end up with two people dying on one Day.Honestly now, we (or rather, you) can't afford another Mira! If those pessimistic scenarios are true we really need to get a mutineer toDay. I can understand "abstaining" from a lynch by lynching someone who is going to be modfired anyway if the village (or ship, arr!) is on an early stage and there are no good cases against anyone else. This late in a game, however, I think an abstain is about the worst choice there is. If you are determined not to lynch anyone, at least lynch a ghost and get us some info. Lynching a modfirée (:D what a word!) wins us nothing.

I think it might be wisest to actually try a good ol' lynch. Like Nogrod enjoys reminding us, it is the only weapon we have, and we have already wasted it once.

I had something else I wanted to say as well but forgot it. :rolleyes:

[A Little Green]

Lommy's Mac obsession looks like a fanatic innocent. Izzy is acting more cobblerish than ever. Mith seems ok.

Sally puzzles me a lot. Something in her tone when she said "Double-lynching me would be a waste" or something like that seemed to me as if she actually wanted to be lynched a second time. I don't know if I'm making any sense, probably not. Why would anyone want to be double-lynched, unless a) she's a cobbler who wants the village to waste a lynch or b) she's a mutineer who thinks the same and believes she has left no trail.

[A Little Green]

Mac why do you assume Eomer wasn't a mutineer? Can see your reasoning about the others but clearly missed that somewhere along the way. Thinks Gwath might be a mutineer.I believe it's because Eomer was Night-killed.

I don't understand what's going on between Boro and Mac. Or, more accurately, Boro, Mac and Lommy. Boro and Mac are suspecting each other all the time but both seem reluctant to do anything concrete about it (potential wolf-on-wolf?). Lommy is convinced Mac is evil. Lommy and Boro are joking around together and testing each other, and as a result seem to consider each other innocent. Go figure.


EDIT: Heey I'm triple-posting! Where is everyone? :confused:

[Thinlómien]

Alright then. I didn't use to pay much attention to Mac. I doubt anyone was. He was kind of staying in the background, making jokes, being nice, offering facts and maths. Being present but not too noticed. Exactly the position a wolf would like to have, may I say.

Then, I started thinking "all veteran loudmouths can't be innocent". A questionable statement, I know, and I won't discuss it further again. But what is important that thinking about it I was lead to thinking about Mac and realised I hadn't paid him almost any attention at all. He was hiding successfully.

I saw a few of his posts. What was he doing? Agreeing with people, especially Rikae the known Hunter and the known Macalaure-knower. I was like "arr he's just trying to avoid her attention and goes with the flow". I told him this. He pleasantly admitted it (that's what person of any role could do) and insisted he had added some points about people's activity. (Really Mac, can't you think of anything else? :p) And then he retaliated by (carefully friendlily jokingly) accusing me of being generic in return. Not too innocent especially as he was kindly not really suspecting me in return. (That was like "oh yes I'm a big mighty wolf you can throw your petty suspicions at my direction but I won't mind we can still be friends before I eat you".)

I accused him of agreeing with people too much and what does he say? "I disagreed with Nogrod on Day1." Go Mac, that was pretty pitiful. :p And then he's just being a tad too easy and non-defensive to really be innocent. An innocent would be more on guard about attacks against him because he would be annoyed by their untruthfulness.

I don't like his quarrel with Boro. It hardly looks like both of them are innocent. And I happen to consider Boro rather innocent, so that's one more point against Mac. (Off-topic, if Boro is really evil - a cobbler doesn't count - I'll never trust him again.)

Then, the critical point.
Mac, explain to me why your general blandness and lack of opinions in this game does not mean you're a wolf. *taps toe*
Haha! Now that's a compliment. Actually, if I really am bland and lack opinions, it indeed would usually mean I'm a wolf. That's part of my basic strategy. Since having a flu probably doesn't count as explanation, I guess I can only give you the nearly complete lack of information to deduce anything from. I'll be more edgy eventually, promise. No one can honestly say that's not wolvish. Really, the way he takes it so jokingly and easily and smoothly just sets all my radars beeping. This is not helped at all by the fact that Rikae says that that is exactly the kind of thing Mac would say to her as a wolf. And what about his next reaction - pretending he doesn't get it or gets sceptic:
Okaaaay...
If you expected me to throw out some suspicion at you in turn, I might have - if you were not a semi-known innocent.

Eeee this is not a point against Mac but if he's a mutineer, then it would be worth looking at Shasta and Sally(/Gwath):
Since Gwath and Sally are missing, it's almost entirely up to you now, Shasta.

ToDay, nothing special. Except that I think he'd be a tad more aggressive and defensive than he is now if he was innocent. The innocent seldom have such ever-lasting patience and joking mood he's displaying.

LYNCH HIM I say. ;) I have nothing to add in his defense except two things - he's not the likeliest of us to miss a kill accidentally and he was taking a huge risk by attacking Rikae who threatened to hunt him but then again he knows her better than any of us others so he would've been able to judge better if she was serious or not.


edit: xed with Greenie - arr I really don't want patting on the head or being called an innocent fanatic and ignored I want Macalaure to be lynched 'cos if he's not evil I'll eat my head! Seriously. I just think my obsession isn't doing any good to my case.

[Boromir88]

Speaking of tone, let's tone it down a bit. We don't know the situation we're in, how many wolves are left, how many cobblers.

Izzy, we go by what people say. I know it's frustrating to have people twist what you're saying, or just automatically start making assumptions, but that's how this thing works. All you can do is keep trying and keep helping. If some say you're the cobbler they most likely have good reason to believe it, unless they're a mutineer that's trying to look for someone we can lynch. If you are the cobbler, than I have no qualms about saying you are, because that's the purpose, that's what we have to do. If you aren't, than I'm wrong, and you can imagine me eating a shoe when this is all over.

Lommy, all you can do is try, win or lose this won't be your fault, and it won't be anyone's fault. Let's see what you have on Mac.

And now I'm going to flip on my Mira stance before, and agree with Greenie (which means I guess I'm agreeing with Mac too :rolleyes: ). But I think it's time we get someone's role.

++Nogrod

If anyone else thinks there would be a more sensible, or informational choice, I'm all ears.

Edit: crossed with Lommy, who laid out her Mac reasons already :)

[Boromir88]

(Off-topic, if Boro is really evil - a cobbler doesn't count - I'll never trust him again.)
~Lommy
If you really are evil (and I think I should count the cobbler), you shouldn't be allowed to use the no self-confidence claim anymore. :p

[A Little Green]

Hmmm. I agree that information would be goooood but is it so good that it's worth missing a lynch? I'm not sure. If that information leads to a successful lynch toMorrow it's worth the miss toDay. What worries me is the possibility that it doesn't. If it doesn't, we have lost another chance to get a baddie.


EDIT: 500th post! Party party! And good night. :D

[Eönwë]

Known non-wolves (Night-killed)
That's a little bit presumptuous. You never know- they may have killed one of their own to mislead us on purpose. Tell me- can a dead mutineer/aggressor still communicate with their team after they're dead?

[satansaloser2005]

Speaking of tone, let's tone it down a bit. We don't know the situation we're in, how many wolves are left, how many cobblers.

Izzy, we go by what people say. I know it's frustrating to have people twist what you're saying, or just automatically start making assumptions, but that's how this thing works. All you can do is keep trying and keep helping. If some say you're the cobbler they most likely have good reason to believe it, unless they're a mutineer that's trying to look for someone we can lynch. If you are the cobbler, than I have no qualms about saying you are, because that's the purpose, that's what we have to do. If you aren't, than I'm wrong, and you can imagine me eating a shoe when this is all over.

Oh really?!

[Boromir88]

Yes "we" sally, "we" have to take what people say and lynch wolves and cobblers, I know the concept of "we" is entirely foreign to you mutineers and cobblers.

[Thinlómien]

Boro, why Nogrod? He wasn't lynched, so he wasn't argued for and against, and he was only around for Day1 and beginning of the Day2. So not much data. I think it'd be more informative to re-lynch Sally. But I still don't think we can afford lynching a ghost (not as long as Mac lives :p).

Lommy, all you can do is try, win or lose this won't be your fault, and it won't be anyone's fault.Thanks, Mr Psychologist, but I'm always personally annoyed if I'm pretty sure I'm right and the village loses because they don't listen to me.

If you really are evil (and I think I should count the cobbler), you shouldn't be allowed to use the no self-confidence claim anymore.But if I'm innocent, I can use it sometime even as evil, right? ;)

That's a little bit presumptuous. You never know- they may have killed one of their own to mislead us on purpose. Tell me- can a dead mutineer/aggressor still communicate with their team after they're dead?Since when wolves have been allowed to commit suicide? And Eönwë, I think a dead mutineer wouldn't be allowed to communicate with the pack (and dead gifted aren't allowed to work either).

I'm beginning to think Boro may be a cobbler after all since he insists so much on lynching the dead in such an unclear situation as this... but that does not mean he should be lynched, his sayings should just be taken with a pinch of salt.


edit: x'ed with Boro :D

[Macalaure]

-Snifflin’ Mac Sparrow ~ Cooper
LYNCH HIM!

Mac

KILL KILL KILL

Mac ~ *RAISES EYEBROW*

I have to say that the way the suspicion level against Kath has been carefully and continuously raised just before she came back is rather suspicious. Lommy, Rikae, Sally... unfortunately only one of those is even alive anymore. Talking of which:

Mac why do you assume Eomer wasn't a mutineer?Because he was killed by the mutineers?

I said before that the fighting between Boro and Mac was quite likely to mean one of them was a wolf. I don't know which. To be on the opposite side of the fence to Lommy, given that Rikae was suspicious of Mac before she was killed it would seem to put him in a better light. Yet Boro doesn't seem suspicious. I guess by elimination and by the fact that I do believe Mac might be a bold enough wolf to kill Rikae knowing he might go down with her I'd probably vote for him. That said, I am more inclined to vote Gwath because of the modfire.

What you said up there made sense til here. You say you said before that Boro or me are a mutineer - where? I checked, but I must've missed that. Is your only actual reason to think I'm evil that I could be bold enough to? That's a ridiculous reason!
Also, the modfire is, I believe, a reason not to vote Gwath.

[Thinlómien]

Also, the modfire is, I believe, a reason not to vote Gwath.Hey, for once we agree. :D It is indeed ridiculous to vote him if he's to be modfired (I was supposed to comment on that but I forgot). We don't want to waste another chance.

[Boromir88]

I'm beginning to think Boro may be a cobbler after all since he insists so much on lynching the dead in such an unclear situation as this... but that does not mean he should be lynched, his sayings should just be taken with a pinch of salt~Lommy
*headdesks*

No I want a double-killing to find out someone's role! :rolleyes: This is the most frustrating thing for me. Because if I know one wolf, I'm confident in my ability to track down others, it's always getting that first one that is a big trouble, and...well as you don't need me saying, I don't know if we have it.

But, I will be honest with you...I only want to find out Nogrod, to pad my own confidence you might say. It's really selfish, because I haven't considered what info we'd get, whether he is innocent or not, I just want to know if I've pegged him correctly.

I said I'm open ears, and that means ghosting someone...but I want to try and see where we stand, get some sort of information, just try to find out something for certain for pete's sake.

But if I'm innocent, I can use it sometime even as evil, right? ;)~Lommy
Sure, but bear in mind you would only be allowed to use that once when you're evil...after that you'll have to get something better. :p

[Thinlómien]

Crap, Boro, why do you start innocent and genuine all over again everytime I start suspecting you more? That sounded pretty honest, and I understand your feelings well (but I still think Sally was more probably a mutineer). But I really don't want to lynch any ghosts before Mac is dead because - I know I'm obsessed - I really think he's evil and I'm starting to feel valierish about this and I really suffer physical pain ( :eek: :rolleyes: :D ) from the thought that I know he's evil and no one agrees except Rikae who's dead. (Maybe I should go to sleep and make a decision never to drink coffee, especially not after noon.)

[Boromir88]

Crap, Boro, why do you start innocent and genuine all over again everytime I start suspecting you more? That sounded pretty honest~Lommy
Suspicion against me is the only protectionI have. Once the suspicion is gone and people start trusting me, I'm cannon fodder. Acting as a bear/wolf has kept me alive as the seer many times...before sally tries something sneaky, I should say I'm not saying I'm the seer now, because I'm not, but in the past being suspicious and confrontational has kept me from being wolf-meat.

I really don't want to lynch any ghosts before Mac is dead because - I know I'm obsessed - I really think he's evil and I'm starting to feel valierish about this and I really suffer physical pain ( ) from the thought that I know he's evil and no one agrees except Rikae who's dead.
I'm still suspicious of Mac, and I'm still alive, and I still have a retract. ;)

[Thinlómien]

Seer
A Little Green

Hunter
Rikae

Ordos (& Ranger)
Lommy
Nerwen
Eomer
Boro
Annu
Shasta
Kath
McCaber
Mith
Wilwa
Gwath

Co-conspirators
Nogrod
Izzy

Mutineers
Mac
Sally
Inziladun
Mira

Izzy is replaceable with Shasta or Annu or Nerwen.
Mira and Inziladun are replaceable with Shasta or Annu or Wilwa or Gwath (or even Kath or McCab).


edit: xed with Boro

[Macalaure]

I thought I'd better start a new post to reply to Lommy's big post about me. I expected to see some good points that I'd have to concede, plenty of bad points that I'd have to defend myself against. Instead, I would have to array one quote after the other and comment each with "what the heck?".

Seriously, Lommy, you're as far off as one can be. :rolleyes:


Oh, darnit, let's try it anyway (all quotes by you-know-who)...

He pleasantly admitted it (that's what person of any role could do) and insisted he had added some points about people's activity.

For the love of... I made a list and you accused me of just agreeing in it. I definitely wasn't, and proved it by telling you that I considered ideas in there that nobody else had considered. Savvy?

And then he retaliated by (carefully friendlily jokingly) accusing me of being generic in return. Not too innocent especially as he was kindly not really suspecting me in return.

I retaliated with friendliness? Oh noes!!

I simply told you that your "points" against me were generic, and thus suspicious, but that your behaviour otherwise continued to make me feel innocent about you.

I accused him of agreeing with people too much and what does he say? "I disagreed with Nogrod on Day1."

That was not all I said, and you know it! Tell me how an innocent can quote this way to make her points?

An innocent would be more on guard about attacks against him because he would be annoyed by their untruthfulness.

But there was no untruthfulness in your attacks so far. There was nothing in your attacks so far. And that was exactly what I criticised.

I don't like his quarrel with Boro. It hardly looks like both of them are innocent.

This is another quite popular statement right now - one that nobody actually bothered to give reasons for. Parrots!

No one can honestly say that's not wolvish. Really, the way he takes it so jokingly and easily and smoothly just sets all my radars beeping.

Inconceivable! I replied jokingly to a joking accusation! String me up, please! :eek:


Reading over it again, it is actually a very finely crafted piece of demagogy. Now I have to make up my mind what's up with you. Mutineer, conspirator who's sure about an innocent, or completely misguided ordo. My problem is, I don't think a real mutineer would be so single-minded.

Let's read some more...

[Boromir88]

Let me go crunch the number i.e. try to see with this many alive, how many days we have left...as much as I would want that information, at this point it might not be the best thing for a double-kill, and give up a day for info that may not be any use at all. My pride might have to endure the agony of not knowing about Nogrod until this is done, and depending upon how many days are left, we may just have travel these waters in the dark going off gut-reactions.

[Thinlómien]

I'm still suspicious of Mac, and I'm still alive, and I still have a retract. ;)I know, but it's not much yet if it's you and me and a dead Rikae. *sigh*

edit: xed with Mac (hey this will be interesting) and Boro

[Macalaure]

(Maybe I should go to sleep and make a decision never to drink coffee, especially not after noon.)

Now I understand what's behind it all... :rolleyes: :p

[Boromir88]

I simply told you that your "points" against me were generic, and thus suspicious, but that your behaviour otherwise continued to make me feel innocent about you.~Mac
Put it however you want...feeling, gut, generic...that's all we got. So why would those suspicions make you suspicious of Lommy?

There hasn't been one good reason to lynch someone, it's all been generic, because that's all we got, vague generic suspicions. And not to be rude, but you all will have to realize that's the set up, this isn't a normal situation. We can't build clear, articulate, concise suspicions, because there's nothing but how we react to what others say.

[Eönwë]

Eonwe - seems to agree with sally.
When?

still reading...

[Nogrod]

Last Night there was a hunter in action. It was either Rikae or me killing the other. Well, it was Rikae who killed me. Had it been otherwise, I would be the hunter and I would have no reason to lie you about it.

I know I'm innocent - and a bit frustrated one because of the way I died - but you have no way to know it. Fine and dandy.

I do think you'll waste your lynch on me but if you wish, go ahead. I would probably take a more active role as a known innocent as that would feel like an obligation to help you as you cleared me - although I can't promise to deliver in this madness this game is (like Lommy said earlier: no offence Brinn - it's been fun and all that - but this concept sucks: there is nothing to grab for and so very little chances for reasoning anything).

But you guys lynched Mira already when there would have been a chance to lynch a mutineer. Now let's be as rational as we can in these circumstances!

And who was behind these ideas (to lynch Mira and to lynch a ghost instead of a possible mutineer - mutineer-ghosts are dead anyway)? Boro...

I don't understand what's going on between Boro and Mac. Or, more accurately, Boro, Mac and Lommy. Boro and Mac are suspecting each other all the time but both seem reluctant to do anything concrete about it (potential wolf-on-wolf?). Lommy is convinced Mac is evil. Lommy and Boro are joking around together and testing each other, and as a result seem to consider each other innocent. Go figure.Exactly my thoughts! I'm not liking the way this thing is heading towards...


But from my position of a ghost I can safely take the other point of view as well, one I had totally forgotten as I was not around when it happened... I heard about it but forgot it until these latest discussions.

So the mutineers missed a kill! Well that is interesting and would basically rule out all the US. veterans (DL is just too nice for them and they would take care personally a kill was sent in time). But it could imply some un-orderedness among the mutineers - or which would be even better: low numbers!

Hmm... Food for thought. If that interpretation is correct you should go for those less experienced and scarcely on-line people... if not, then you have a galley (sic!) of suspects: Boro, Mac, Lommy, Mith, Kath...


But before we have shared thoughts about these two very different interpretations of the situation I could have proposed lynching Boro, if there was not this: This is the most frustrating thing for me. Because if I know one wolf, I'm confident in my ability to track down others, it's always getting that first one that is a big trouble, and...well as you don't need me saying, I don't know if we have it.Most of what he's said has sounded like evil to my ears this far but this looks like pure innocent-thinking... Okay Boro could think this and perform it even if a wolf, but it's so much easier to think as an innocent what a wolf might do than to actually do things as a wolf (I know, I've been a wolf enough many times).

Sadly I'm not ready to give him the green card as yet either as how he explained that quote looked a bit fishy.

EDIT: X'd with a host of posts...

[Macalaure]

So why would those suspicions make you suspicious of Lommy?

What about incomplete quotes and populist tone?

[Boromir88]

Alright 11 people left. If Gwath doesn't vote that'll be 10 and after today 9, unless we decide to lynch Gwath...but at this point, I agree with Greenie.

If there are 4 mutineers still, and assuming if the Ranger makes no successful protections we have 3 days to get one (including today).

Yeesh, I can't even crunch the numbers properly, because not only is my math pathetic, but we have no idea how many mutineers are left.

Sorry, that was completely pointless in trying to figure out whether we should double-kill now or not. We either just risk it, by giving up a day and finding something that may be useful or may not...or we just keep ahead with ghosting people.

[Eönwë]

Since when wolves have been allowed to commit suicide?Just because it's never happened in a game that I've been in, it doesn't mean its not allowed. That's why I wanted to know

[Nogrod]

Suspicion against me is the only protectionI have. Once the suspicion is gone and people start trusting me, I'm cannon fodder. Acting as a bear/wolf has kept me alive as the seer many times...Oh my. I'm repeating Lommy now... Just as I thought you were loking a bit innocent you wrote this!

This is a different game Boro, and you know it! In this game the mutineers don't want "half-known innocents" killed by Night as they can then contribute with some credibility and are not blown away from the game entirely - so if you're innocent you could sleep half-free of concern for your own life.

You don't need the suspicion in this game as you need in normal games (trust me, I know what I'm talking about with the normal games... my only lifeline is suspcion... :rolleyes:). But it's different here. Were you an innocent you would know it personally but as a mutineer (or a co-conspie) it would be just theory you just didn't come to think about?

Boro, that is mutineer-talk.

[Thinlómien]

Hooray I finally managed to get Mac on the defensive! *evil grin*

Okay, first he tries to discredit my case all in all. Later he claims I had "nothing" in my accusation. Has he been reading this thread with a bag on his head. Please, Mac, go back and see I really had reasons, as much reasons as anyone can have and has had in this game.

For the love of... I made a list and you accused me of just agreeing in it. I definitely wasn't, and proved it by telling you that I considered ideas in there that nobody else had considered. Savvy?Yous start sounding like Aganzir... Of course you weren't agreeing about every single thing but close enough that it disturbed me. And you can't really say your new points were of the most remarkable sort. You admitted that yourself later (you said you haven't had much points against anyone).

I simply told you that your "points" against me were generic, and thus suspicious, but that your behaviour otherwise continued to make me feel innocent about you.Yes and that's exactly what a wolf not under too much suspicion would do. Don't you dare to tell me that's not true. It does not prove your guilt but it is certainly not a point in favour of your innocence.

That was not all I said, and you know it! Tell me how an innocent can quote this way to make her points?Well yes you continued "and with Boro afterwards" but that was not the point. The point was that if you have to go back to Day1 to find where you really disagreed with people (or, to phrase better, if that's the one you mention first) you have to admit you've been agreeing a lot.

This is another quite popular statement right now - one that nobody actually bothered to give reasons for. Parrots!But I can use it because I was the first (or the second) to say that. ;) I'm sorry I cannot really analyse why I think so, but in this game you have to go a lot by gut-feeling and that's my gut-feeling. I can give you a general explanation and that is that there was something too purposeful in the attacks to be the sort of innocent testing attacks.

Inconceivable! I replied jokingly to a joking accusation! String me up, please!With pleasure. ;) Seriously though, I don't think Rikae's accusation was a joke even though it was phrased "light-heartedly". We can have her clear up this mess but to me it seems like she accused you of a real thing in a joking tone and you ignored the serious side and took it as a joke and that's what I think a baddie would have done - avoid the nasty question and later say "oh it was just a joke".

Reading over it again, it is actually a very finely crafted piece of demagogy. Now I have to make up my mind what's up with you. Mutineer, conspirator who's sure about an innocent, or completely misguided ordo. My problem is, I don't think a real mutineer would be so single-minded.Good, good, now you're slowly turning your boat so that you can get me lynched with your swarming allies so that you don't have to incriminate yourself by killing me at Night. That's smart.

And I'm not really mad at you, I'm sorry if I sound like that, I just really think you're evil and I'm determined to get you lynched rather sooner than later. When you're dead we can be friends again. ;)


edit: xed with everyone

[Isabellkya]

o.O @ Boro. No kidding buddy.

Innocents have no reason to twist words. Nor do they have a reason to make an assumption - based on nothing, and stick with it regardless.


You have too many or's there Lommy. It pretty much makes that entire list pretty null and void.


Hmm.
Vote time. Nerwen? Boro? Mac? Lommy?
Whoo knows.

[Eönwë]

OK... I have to go now and my brain's not working- it's too late. So I shall go with my gut feeling and vote the suspicious:

++Inziladun

Who seems to have been completely forgotten by the crew and is totally under my radar today.



G'night. If I be I still I live I be seein' ye scurvy-dogs toMorrer.


edit: x-ed many

[Boromir88]

And who was behind these ideas (to lynch Mira and to lynch a ghost instead of a possible mutineer - mutineer-ghosts are dead anyway)? Boro...~Nogrod
We had a different philosophy Nogrod, that doesn't make me evil and you know it. Did I suspect you for disagreeing with me about Mira? No. I may have not trusted your intentions when you didn't want to, but that's not why I was suspious of you. I was suspicious because of the Greenie and Eomer kills and the Day 1 lynching.

I defended my reasons, I gave what I thought was beneficial, as did Rikae. Yet you did not find Rikae suspicious over Mira's lynching just me. I won't say anymore about it, because I defended my reasons, we think differently about the subject. That's all.

And I think I've defended the reasons for wanting a double-kill suitable enough too. The more frustrating thing is this should have occurred on Day 1, like I tried to get going and talking about. But only Greenie felt the need to comment, and all you felt like saying is throwing it aside at what "little" I had to offer about the topic.

Edit crossed with a lot...Nogrod and I both managed to tell eachother "you know it" in a cross-post :rolleyes:

[Boromir88]

You don't need the suspicion in this game as you need in normal games (trust me, I know what I'm talking about with the normal games... my only lifeline is suspcion... ). But it's different here. Were you an innocent you would know it personally but as a mutineer (or a co-conspie) it would be just theory you just didn't come to think about?~Nogrod
No offense met Nogrod, because I love WWing with you and "you know it." :p But don't tell me how I decide to do things and presume what is the "innocent" and "wolf" thing to do in a game like this one.

Innocents have no reason to twist words. Nor do they have a reason to make an assumption - based on nothing, and stick with it regardless.~Izzy
Words can be mis-interpretted, and thus twisted, unintentionally and innocently...it all depends upon how someone reads it. You can have two different people read the same thing and get the completely opposite interpretation.

[Thinlómien]

Now I understand what's behind it all...Hey, that does not explain my suspicion of you, it only explains the physical agony I feel about this all. :D

I would probably take a more active role as a known innocent as that would feel like an obligation to help you as you cleared me - although I can't promise to deliver in this madness this game is (like Lommy said earlier: no offence Brinn - it's been fun and all that - but this concept sucks: there is nothing to grab for and so very little chances for reasoning anything).If we double-lynch you, you're dead not a known innocent. ;)

What about incomplete quotes and populist tone?Populist tone?!! *would crack up if wasn't feeling like jumping up and down*

You have too many or's there Lommy. It pretty much makes that entire list pretty null and void.I can't. Ignore all the options, then, if it's better.

I should go to sleep now but then I'm pretty sure then Mac won't get lynched. (And I bet there's even smaller chances of getting him lynched toMorrow.) Then you all just owe me a big rep once the game is over. ;) And I will really eat my head gladly if I've been wrong about him, I know I can get it totally wrong in ww but for now both my reason and my gut-feeling tell Mac is not innocent so I'm trusting myself about this.


edit: xed with Boro

[Isabellkya]

You keep digging yourself a hole Boro.

[Boromir88]

You keep digging yourself a hole Boro.

You got a shovel, you can help me make it deeper.

[Thinlómien]

*raises an eyebrow*

[Nogrod]

No offense met Nogrod, because I love WWing with you and "you know it." :p But don't tell me how I decide to do things and presume what is the "innocent" and "wolf" thing to do in a game like this one.
No offence intended either. I love to play with you as well...

But I think you missed the point there. I was not telling you how to play but describing the difference between this game and more normal games - and just saying that what you said about you needing suspicion to stay alive is not true in this one. It is probably true in the more normallish games but not here and you know that. So why did you defend yourself that way as it is clearly not the case in this game?

Talking about differing philosophies: you really think we should waste another lynch? As I said before (on Day1 I think): the Night kills have only us innocents as targets, the lynches include the possibility of a mutineer getting killed. And in this situation - where we have already lost one lynch - you suggest we should lose another?

Okay, different philosophy, if you wish... :)

[Isabellkya]

Nope. No shovel here.

You've got it all to yourself.

[Brinniel]

By the way, I'm a bit confused/curious. Can someone be killed their second time at Night, or just by lynch?
From the admin thread:

When a player first dies, they become a ghost. But if they were to die again, they would no longer exist. Basically this means that the crew, aggressors, and avenger have the option to kill a player a second time if they choose, for whatever reasons.
So yes, ghosts can get killed at Night and the avenger could've hunted one.

Brinn are you around? Can you tell us what's happening about Gwath?
As I've stated before, no modfire will be confirmed for a player until the beginning of the next Day. Gives the one who failed to vote twice one more chance to provide me good reason why they deserve to stay alive.

Tell me- can a dead mutineer/aggressor still communicate with their team after they're dead?
No, that would be cheating.

Eonwe, if you're still around, you may want to bold that vote so it counts...

[Macalaure]

Okay, first he tries to discredit my case all in all. Later he claims I had "nothing" in my accusation. Has he been reading this thread with a bag on his head. Please, Mac, go back and see I really had reasons, as much reasons as anyone can have and has had in this game.

If so, then I have overlooked them. Please educate me: Show me the reasons, but please show me reasons that merited a defense.

Of course you weren't agreeing about every single thing but close enough that it disturbed me.

And if you would have put it like that earlier, I wouldn't have had to explain myself.

Yes and that's exactly what a wolf not under too much suspicion would do. Don't you dare to tell me that's not true.

Dare. Of course a wolf might do that. But what would an innocent do who is attacked by someone who he thinks is innocent? Change his opinion immediately and counter-attack, or point out what's wrong and carry on without much consequence?

Well yes you continued "and with Boro afterwards" but that was not the point. The point was that if you have to go back to Day1 to find where you really disagreed with people

Err, I think you asked me that on Day3? So Day1 is not all that far back. Also, I wanted to cover all days and state that at no time I had just been agreeing with everyone.

I can give you a general explanation and that is that there was something too purposeful in the attacks to be the sort of innocent testing attacks.

I wouldn't consider that generic, actually. If you'd add an example or two, I'd be pleased. :)

We can have her clear up this mess but to me it seems like she accused you of a real thing in a joking tone and you ignored the serious side and took it as a joke and that's what I think a baddie would have done - avoid the nasty question and later say "oh it was just a joke".

I don't think I ignored the serious side. At any rate my reply was not just joking. Maybe my reply wasn't very in-depth, but what would you reply to a question like that?

Good, good, now you're slowly turning your boat so that you can get me lynched with your swarming allies so that you don't have to incriminate yourself by killing me at Night. That's smart.

Oh, boy... Maybe you should read what I wrote over again. I said I still don't think you're a mutineer.



Eonwe - you didn't bold your vote! :eek:

[Nogrod]

If we double-lynch you, you're dead not a known innocent. ;)Haha! I had to check this one and you're right Lommy. The rules say it quite clearly indeed: the second lynch / kill will eliminate the player for good - and reveal her/his role.

I could see why you wished me to shut up Boro... Hopefully I've done enough damage toDay for you not wishing to pursue that any more. :D

[Thinlómien]

Ladies and getlemen, I'm going to sleep. Good night and Night! Lynch well (ie lynch Mac ;)).

But seriously, please consider my points against him before you cast your votes and please consider the strange veil of ignorance and goodwill he's wrapped on. Are so many people refraining from suspecting him or even commenting on my suspicions on him because my theory has not even the tiniest crumb of credit, or because he's evil and so many people are on his side and know it?


edit: xed with Brinn, Mac (oh no I predict I can't go to sleep yet) and Nogrod

[Boromir88]

*raises an eyebrow*

It's irritating because you would think people could tell when someone's trying to help or not. Then to get continually criticized for a decision you made, even after you spelled out in lots of detail why you thought it was beneficial.

You presume there's a right or wrong in how an "innocent" should act, and how a "wolf" should act, and whoever fits your presumptions, that's what you follow. But this is different, because this is a completely new set up, and it's annoying because there is an assumed "right" or "wrong" way how to win in this set up as an innocent. What did I say a couple days ago about "right" or "wrong?" In this set up there is none, because it is unfamiliar...and you have to decide between the lesser of 2 evils, but both cases suck. At least I made a decision and I could defend it, you would think whether someone agrees with you or not could see that. :rolleyes:

[Boromir88]

I could see why you wished me to shut up Boro... Hopefully I've done enough damage toDay for you not wishing to pursue that any more.~Nogrod
I'm beginning to think I was wrong about you, and when I am, I will gladly admit it. Sometimes you have to get a little testy with people to figure them out, "I know that" :p

[Boromir88]

where we have already lost one lynch - you suggest we should lose another?~Nogrod
But that's the whole point of the disagreement! Whether we lost a lynch or not. Ok we did, but we either gained a day phase back, thus nullifying the loss, or a night phase allowing the Ranger and Hunter to make another choice. That's the whole point of the disagreement! You believe we lost something, Rikae and I showed the benefits of the decision and the fact that we didn't lose something.

As far as the double-kill, I said I would crunch the numbers, but it's virtually impossible to determine how many days we have left. To which I said, we may justh have to continue to go in the dark.

[Rikae]

As I told Rikae. Most, if not all of the times someone(s) have called my lists "fabricated" - it is because they have nasty intentions.

Yeah, and I've been proven to be the hunter now, so you really should be eating those words, not repeating them. :rolleyes:

[Nogrod]

So Lommy raised an eyebrow for you? And that merited the kind of defence?

Over-reacting, aren't you Boro? :rolleyes:

Heh, saw your last before sending this... "Testing" is the backbone of any game but also the most controversial thing to do - and also dangerous at times (if others join it before you have a chance to assess the reactions).

But yes, you know it and I know it... and many around know it. :)

And I have no vote in my hands anyway (thank God, it would be really hard to decide toDay).

Now off to Arda Football for a moment and then to sleep - via a look in here.

PS. Losing a possibility to lynch a mutineer twice in a game as mad as this where we have no clue is no question of different goodie-philosophies; it's a difference between good and evil... :eek:

Let's discuss that more later if you feel like it, but I'm off for a while now...

[Thinlómien]

If so, then I have overlooked them. Please educate me: Show me the reasons, but please show me reasons that merited a defense.If you're interested, you must go and see them for yourself, I won't start playing games like this at 4.30am.

And if you would have put it like that earlier, I wouldn't have had to explain myself.I seldom mean everything I say totally literally. Okay, I know, you could disregard everything I say based on this but just generally, use of common sense is allowed.

Dare. Of course a wolf might do that. But what would an innocent do who is attacked by someone who he thinks is innocent? Change his opinion immediately and counter-attack, or point out what's wrong and carry on without much consequence?Wonder why the attack came and if the accusator is merely mistaken or if s/he's evil.

Err, I think you asked me that on Day3? So Day1 is not all that far back. Also, I wanted to cover all days and state that at no time I had just been agreeing with everyone.Fair point. I feel like this game has lasted for a dozen days already. Anyway, my point remains. Day1 is Day1 (ie random and yes I know all in this game is random but Day1 is still more random than others) and it is weird you mention it first. Nit-picking maybe, yes, but that's a wolf-catching trick I learned from Aganzir the Queen of Nit-picking. It shows clearly what went through your mind.

I wouldn't consider that generic, actually. If you'd add an example or two, I'd be pleased.Alright, it might be good for myself too to look at it more in-depth, but like I said it's 4.30 now and I've been silly enough to stay awake this long so I won't stay here anymore... but I'll look at it toMorrow if you two are still alive and it feels relevant.

I don't think I ignored the serious side. At any rate my reply was not just joking. Maybe my reply wasn't very in-depth, but what would you reply to a question like that?I don't know, but if I was innocent I wouldn't reply anything so wolvishly phrased. ;) I took your reply as just joking, but if it wasn't, I must take your word for it.

Oh, boy... Maybe you should read what I wrote over again. I said I still don't think you're a mutineer.Yes, you said this:

Reading over it again, it is actually a very finely crafted piece of demagogy. Now I have to make up my mind what's up with you. Mutineer, conspirator who's sure about an innocent, or completely misguided ordo. My problem is, I don't think a real mutineer would be so single-minded.And while you're not suspecting me really yet, it is like you were preparing to change your mind publicly.


edit: xed with everything

[Isabellkya]

Nope, no reason to.

You can though. I'll even sprinkle some pepper on 'em to make them go down smoother. xD

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Wait a second, wait a second. How is lynching Mira (danger of being modfired) any different than lynching Gwath (danger of being modfired) and why are people flipflopping on the issue?

[Thinlómien]

I think Boro wanted to get that off his heart and doesn't want to lose my good opinion of him. Not that it tells anything of his role, any of it.

Now I'm really going! Good night everybody. :)


edit: xed with Shasta - there's no difference imo and no idea why they're flip-flopping unless they've seen the light ;)

[Boromir88]

Over-reacting, aren't you Boro? :rolleyes:~Nogrod
Yes, I am in drama-queen mode right now...what's your point? This stinks, because you know nothing, you feel like you can't do anything about it, and when you actually do something that can be proven to have helped, you get people telling you are either an evil wolf or you made a stupid decision.

[Macalaure]

or a night phase allowing the Ranger and Hunter to make another choice.

Which hunter? And the chance that the ranger will still be alive by then is not exactly great either (3 in 11, I think).

[Boromir88]

Wait a second, wait a second. How is lynching Mira (danger of being modfired) any different than lynching Gwath (danger of being modfired) and why are people flipflopping on the issue?

Because it's a different day, and a different situation. On Day 2, I'd rather lynch someone going than randomly choosing someone for a senseless reason.

Now, there are fewer people, a better chance of getting a wolf, and even though we have no votes, or real "evidence" there has been some better reasons against Mac, and Kath, that there simply wasn't on Day 2.

[Boromir88]

Which hunter? And the chance that the ranger will still be alive by then is not exactly great either (3 in 11, I think).

I was talking about the decision we made at the time when there was a Ranger and there was a hunter.

[Boromir88]

--Nogrod

I'm doing no good here, either wolves are intentionally getting me riled up to make me go crazy or people just like seeing me blast off.

Edit: changing the "=" signs to "-" signs

[Macalaure]

One thing to the people who've been complaining about the lack of information in this game setup: Don't forget that the mutineers got lucky and killed the seer right away. On average we'd have a lot more information with this setup. Also, we don't know how well or badly we are actually doing, so I think this criticism is rather early.

[Boromir88]

One thing to the people who've been complaining about the lack of information in this game setup: Don't forget that the mutineers got lucky and killed the seer right away. On average we'd have a lot more information with this setup. Also, we don't know how well or badly we are actually doing, so I think this criticism is rather early.

True, we don't know...and my complaining isn't an attack against Brinn. (I hope you, Brinn, haven't taken it as such). I'm here, I may kick and scream about it, but I'm here and I'm participating because I want to be. And that is the testament to Brinn's creativity and ingenuity. I whine, but that doesn't mean Brinn's made any kind of mistake or done an awful job.

I just gripe, because the truth is it sucks to not know anything. It sucks to not be able to do what I normally would do, and when I actually do feel like I made a good choice, it sucks to get bombarded with more griping from mates about what a stupid decision you made. Even after defending it, and arguing for it, it's still "how could you even make that mistake...oh and Boro led it!" I'll admit a mistake, but in my opinion, I didn't make one with Mira...maybe I have somewhere else, only time will tell.

[Rikae]

Nope, no reason to.


So the "one time" that person didn't have evil intent and you were the ranger is this game, then?

When you're in no danger of being lynched toDay, and have failed to protect anyone (therefore having no knowledge to offer us) you claim to be ranger?

Oh, and the votes are spread all over the place, people! At this point in the game, this is really a bad idea- wolves and cobblers can control lynch! Get your act together

[Rikae]

Possible one of "cobblers" wolf posing as cobbler...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

So I'm thinking this Lommy vs Mac thing looks really.... staged, for lack of a better word. I've never seen Lommy be so aggressive (unless Agan is playing... :p), and Mac seems to be using all his (rather formidable) powers of intellect on barely defending himself.

[Isabellkya]

I don't claim to be Ranger.
Previous Game.

That would be an example of..... word twisting. ;)

++Nerwen

The more I see. I don't believe the claim of Greenie, and subsequent "known-innocence" of Nerwen. She sure isn't acting like an innocent.

X'd with Shasta.

[Boromir88]

I want to trust Lommy on this one, about Mac...that was certainly a spirited back and forth.

But I don't know, there's something that doesn't sit right with those keeping out of things, and showing in with comments, or nothing at all. It gets a feeling of mutineers sitting back to watch the people trying to figure out something tear eachother apart.

I can be fairly sure, barring the unexpected, Mac will be involved tomorrow. If I can deal with the agony of not knowing about Nogrod until the end, maybe Lommy...you can handle the pain of Mac not being lynched?

++Kath

Mac will be involved, which means if he's a wolf, we'll get him Lommy. Maybe not today, but we'll get him. Mac, if you can prove you're an innocent as you say you are, than do it. (How you can prove it to me, I'll get back to you, I only read Lommy's first post against you and your response).

I chose Kath, because I don't like her vote for Gwath. It's very hypocritical of me, but I admit to being a hypocrit. It just looks like she's taking a chance to latch on to Mira's lynching. It looks like she isn't "truly" suspicious of Gwath, and just decides to cast to make a safe vote, for someone who could be mod-fired, and she can avoid the "heat."

Edit: wish I hadnt cross-posted with Izzy...

[Nogrod]

Edit: wish I hadnt cross-posted with Izzy...Why? Please enlighten us... Because Izzy is A) a co-conspie, B) a mutineer C) you feel your vote got obsolete, D) other?

[Macalaure]

Alright, I expected to have to use my vote to save myself today, and now it suddenly seems like I actually have a chance to survive anyway and vote for someone whom I suspect. Now I need to make my mind up, which I couldn't really all day.

Vote count first, I need to know where we stand.

Nerwen -> Gwath
Mith -> Izzy
Lommy -> Mac
Kath -> Gwath (2)
(Eonwe -> Inzy)
Izzy -> Nerwen
Boro -> Kath

Gwath is in the lead?? Yikes!

[Rikae]

I don't claim to be Ranger.
Previous Game.

That would be an example of..... word twisting. ;)

++Nerwen

The more I see. I don't believe the claim of Greenie, and subsequent "known-innocence" of Nerwen. She sure isn't acting like an innocent.

X'd with Shasta.

Ah, Ok, so the ONE FREAKING 100% KNOWN INNOCENT IN THIS GAME has evil intent.

Hm, like I said, wolf playing a cobbler - or else a cobbler who thinks a wolf is up for the lynch and is desperately trying to draw votes away.

[Rikae]

Boro, I have a sneaking suspicion that, though Mac and Kath may well both be evil, by not voting alongside Lommy you've doomed us all (well, you living ones). :(

Or perhaps Lommy will switch to Kath? I suppose it's still hopeless.

[Isabellkya]

Just because someone is innocent, doesn't mean they don't have schemes of their own. xD


X'd with Rikae.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I don't understand Izzy's vote. True, there is no hard evidence to believe Greenie's Seer claim, but then again there is no hard evidence to disbelieve it.

In fact, all evidence in this game is circumstantial. And I hazard the opinion that there is more circumstantial evidence in favor of Greenie's claim than against it.

[Inziladun]

So I'm thinking this Lommy vs Mac thing looks really.... staged, for lack of a better word. I've never seen Lommy be so aggressive (unless Agan is playing... :p), and Mac seems to be using all his (rather formidable) powers of intellect on barely defending himself.

She did vote for him, though.
RL situation has come up, meaning I can't put near the time into this it deserves.
I was leaning toward Mac, who I already suspected, or Kath, because of the Gwath vote. I still think he's more likely to be a conspirator than mutineer, and modfire looks definately to be likely for him.
Izzy's vote is bizarre enough, but does it scream 'mutineer' or just 'conspirator? No time to consider it further right now.
Again, my apologies. I'll try to do better next Day, even if I'm a ghost.

Yes, agreeing with Boro. He's wrong about the ghost lynches, but I think he has the right of this.

++ Kath

x'd with Shasta

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Hum. I find Gwath-voters strange at this juncture, same with Mira before. I'm not sure that in itself is enough to declare Kath guilty, though.

[Rikae]

Shasta, she claimed earlier today that "almost every person" who called her lists "fabricated" (which I did yesterday) had evil intent, even though I had already been proven to be the hunter. Sure, she said almost - but still, the only point in saying it was to imply a known innocent was evil. She's obviously evil - don't waste your time.

[Nogrod]

I don't want to sound as repeating myself but just take a look at yesterDay. Rikae went pretty strongly against Gwath (as much as I have read yesterDay). So if the mutineers believed Rikae was the hunter (why wouldn't they as she was the hunter) they would not have attacked her if Gwath was one of them. Or then they are very confident indeed and could sacrifice Gwath - who hasn't posted a lot lately anyway.

EDIT: Bah... I posted for the previous page only... needs to see more...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Given that Gwath seems to be heading for modfire anyway, I move that we move the discussion onward. :p

[Nogrod]

I'm always afraid of Kath when innocent - and this time is no exception...

But my God if this is one more mutineer bandwaggon!

The problem is whether they (the mutineers) feel really confident or not... The missed kill would talk for them having problems - and it would fit Kath being one as she wouldn't be there on the deadline to make sure the kill gets through...

Who would be the clumsy American(s) then missing a shot during the Night? That would be something to think for toMorrow...

[Macalaure]

A quick list:

Lommy - still leaning innocent with her, though I could see her as a very skilled cobbler, too.
Inzy - hasn't done anything to make suspect him of cobblery less than yesterday.
Boro - leaning more innocent with him today than yesterday.
Shasta - has slipped a bit from my attention lately.
Kath - Her Gwath-vote is a bad one, but I have the feeling that she hasn't entirely caught up yet. She also forgot that Eomer was killed. I'd like to give her a pass for today.
Izzy - probably not a mutineer, but could be a cobbler.
Mith - another one I paid too little attention to. Doesn't seem evil, though.
Eonwe - needs a closer look, too.

If I only knew how many mutineers are actually hiding within those 8. It has to be at least 2. Would Lommy really launch an attack like that if she was a mutineer? Is Inzy more evil than I thought? Am I wrong about Boro? Or Izzy? Or is lynching Kath the best option after all? I need a better picture of Shasta, Mith, and Eonwe...

[Nogrod]

Heh, not only Kath, but Mith and Lommy could also be ones to leave the duty of reporting the kill to someone in the US. because of the terrible DL and then be implied as well if there are more mutineers left...

[Rikae]

Who would be the clumsy American(s) then missing a shot during the Night? That would be something to think for toMorrow...

That's a thought that makes Mac look more innocent after all - he's here in the US and would have been unlikely to miss the kill.

[Macalaure]

Only got the mental energy to look at the three today.

Shasta is quite keeping his head out of things. Not one actual accusation the entire day. He is helpful, though, and I agree with most of his stated opinions.

I like it how Mith cautioned people against the early Kath suspicions. Her vote is puzzling. Didn't do much else.

Eonwe suddenly started this whole idea that the mutineers might kill each other at night. Then he votes out of gut feeling. Definitely worthy of a raised eyebrow, but wouldn't a mutineer give more effort to look reasonable?

That didn't really help...

[Rikae]

...which would be just what Mac would want to do, and maybe Nog too. (Could I have actually killed an aggressor after all?)

Oh, and Izzy, you do have to eat your words, then, since my only "scheme" was to point out a possible bit of wolvishness from your potentially wolfish self. :p

[Isabellkya]

*sprinkles some pepper on Rikae's words for her*

xD

[Shastanis Althreduin]

You guys are taking Short Ruth Mith's job. :(

I still think Lommy - Mac was staged.

[Macalaure]

I still think Lommy - Mac was staged.It might have been a ploy on Lommy's side (which would make her a very likely cobbler), but not from mine.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Nerwen -> Gwath
Mith -> Izzy
Lommy -> Mac
Kath -> Gwath
Eonwe -> Inzy - not bolded, does not count
Izzy -> Nerwen
Boro -> Kath

Gwath 2. Izzy, Mac, Nerwen, Kath 1. Inziladun, Shasta, Mac, and Gwath left to vote.

I don't like that Gwath is in the lead, at all. It's going to take two votes to not let that happen, which means... Mac and I have to vote the same, on someone who's already got one vote. Unless Zil shows up (which I doubt).

[Nogrod]

Could I have actually killed an aggressor after all?Sadly you didn't... I'd give you all the credit if you'd done that, but sorry. You chose soo wrong... :(

Let's see if we can work anything out toMorrow. Now I'm just too tired and enough disinterested to try to figure the situation...

[Macalaure]

Shasta, Inzy voted Kath. Who are you considering voting?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Nerwen -> Gwath
Mith -> Izzy
Lommy -> Mac
Kath -> Gwath
Eonwe -> Inzy - not bolded, does not count
Izzy -> Nerwen
Boro -> Kath

Gwath 2. Izzy, Mac, Nerwen, Kath 1. Inziladun, Shasta, Mac, and Gwath left to vote.

I don't like that Gwath is in the lead, at all. It's going to take two votes to not let that happen, which means... Mac and I have to vote the same, on someone who's already got one vote. Unless Zil shows up (which I doubt).

I missed Zil's vote for Kath. So, Gwath is still in line to be executed, but one vote for Kath will tip the scales. Mac and I to vote, and to be honest, I would rather control the vote than someone I consider to be evil.

++Kath

[Nogrod]

What is your tally about Shasta? At least Inziladun voted for Kath so she has at least two votes...

And really, Gwath is a bad idea I say. Just looking at yesterDay and the kill of the Night - and if he's facing a modfire anyway.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I see you're still around, Mac. As of right now, I still have my retraction, but the only other candidates for lynching are Izzy, yourself, and Nerwen. I think Nerwen innocent based on Greenie's claim, you're obviously not going to vote yourself, and I think Izzy is a cobbler, so.... Kath really is the only option.

[Rikae]

*sprinkles some pepper on Rikae's words for her*

xD

Oh, yes. When the game ends and I am revealed to be the secret evil hunter, unknown even to myself, who lies about Izzy's fabricated list without even knowing it, boy will I be embarrassed! :rolleyes:

Guess what Izzy? Your list was fabricated. Fabricated, fabricated, fabricated. Polyester, rayon, satin, wool crepe fabricated! PREfabricated, even! Your list was fabricated, and I saw that it was fabricated, and I said "lo and behold! This post, it is FABRICATED, as it has been ordained by Izzy, and all shall see it and shall say "yea, verily, it is fabricated!" and there shall be great rejoicing, and we shall slaughter the aggressors and have a feast, for so sayeth RIKAE." And all who were gathered there looked upon the post, and said "forsooth, it is fabricated, and Izzy has made it so, and in doing so she sinneth against the almighty crew, and she shall be cut into four pieces (not three, five is right out) and thrown into the sea, where the fishes and the sharks and the birds of the air and all the lifeguards and surfers shall feast upon her and shall not die, for she has made a fabricated post, and the one who pointed it out had not evil intent nor ulterior motive"! And it was so.

[Macalaure]

I have a feeling we're choosing wrongly here, but alright:

++Kath

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I have a feeling we're choosing wrongly here, but alright:

++Kath

Who would you rather have lynched, then, Mac? Not yourself, I'm guessing.

[Nogrod]

So you din't go for Izzy, Mac? Why is that?

And still you regret voting Kath?

Interesting...

[Macalaure]

Izzy seems wasted, Nerwen and Gwath are out of the question, and young Master Eonwe forgot to bold his vote for the formidable choice Inziladun. :rolleyes:

Kath is indeed the best choice right now, and that's sad.

[Macalaure]

So you din't go for Izzy, Mac? Why is that?Give me a reason to believe she's a mutineer.