WWLXX: At the Prison of Ice

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Expedition Journal - Prologue

As it has been said, the expedition I have been assigned to was heading to regions of the far Arctic. I attended it on behalf of my good friend, sir Michael Bishop, who spent part of his company's earnings to fund projects such as this. This expedition has been a part of a research project organised by a group of people from several countries, aiming at large-scale ecological and climatological studies of a specific area between North Latitude 78°-86°. Our team consisted of several esteemed experts in the fields ranging widely from meteorology to polar biology, representing some high-ranking universities and institutes. Our plan in short was to leave at the end of the summer season from well-known arctic port in Barrow, Alaska and head west of the Chukchi Sea to collect meteorological and oceanographic data in the open sea. Then we will turn to the archipelagos of the Old World to make further observations of terrestrial flora and fauna, with a brief visit and exchange of information with the personnel of the Russian NP drifting ice station. By the middle of autumn we would reach Schmidt Island and deploy several buoys north of the Kara Sea to monitor and collect data, and at last we would head to one of the nearby polar stations to winter.

The start of the expedition was accompanied by several complications, as if something already marked its ill-omened course, or as if some other power wished to mercifully prevent us from attending it. Our very departure from Barrow was delayed by a week and three days due to an unexpected malfunction of the ship's engine, which was subsequently repaired, however after twenty days of sail we were forced once again to head for emergency docking in Dikson, Krasnoyarsk to perform another necessary repair. It was at this point when we started to worry about the fate of our expedition, as our aims were to avoid spending the peak of the winter season aboard the icebreaker. Our Russian colleagues have advised us to speed up our journey, and so it came that by autumn equinox we have managed to finish our observations in the Laptev Sea and at the beginning of November we found ourselves in waters close to 82°N 79°E, past Ushakov Island. The sea was already full of pack ice, yet our icebreaker moved smoothly enough for a long time until the unfortunate accident.

***

This is the game thread. No posting here yet until the game begins. For rules and for asking questions, see the admin thread (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=15986).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Approximately at 0:45 AM on November 29th sudden crash awoke me from sleep in my cabin. When I ran out into the corridor outside, I encountered our palaeoclimatologist and his mathematician colleague rushing from the stern where our "common room" was situated. Apparently they have been awake, yet even they could not tell what happened. When we rushed on the upper deck, we encountered the rest of our crew, and also saw the deck covered with shards of ice. Our mechanic went away and came back with the confirmation of our fears: the ship had apparently crushed into a vast mass of ice, a thickened ridge which it was unable to penetrate, and even though its hull was only partially damaged, it seemed that the propellers might have received some damage, possibly by debris of ice getting into the propeller shafts. We could not get a proper account of these events, however, as apparently only our captain had been on the deck when it happened, yet we could not find any trace of him. Some speculated that possibly he was on the deck when it happened and the impact had somehow swept him overboard, yet why would he be on the deck? Simultaneously, we noticed that the data transmitter in the cabin was broken, possibly as the crash damaged its subtle mechanism. That effectively dismissed our hopes for further advancement with the ship for the time being, even if it was still movable. We needed constant updates on our ice drift charts if we were to find a way out of here.

Fortunately, our survival expert took lead at that point. Our expedition had such one - although even many of the others were skilled specialists who have spent more than one season on the ice (one of them being a veteran of the Antarctic expedition to Mt. Mallis). Our survival expert presented us with a plan: she would take half of us to the ice back in our own trail and look for the missing captain, and half of us would stay on the ship and try to assess the damage we have suffered. In the worst case, if the ship proved immovable and irreparable for us, we will send a distress call. Repeatedly, our survival expert asked us to remain calm and not to get stressed.

LIVING MEMBERS OF THE EXPEDITION:

Inziladun - meteorologist
Mnemosyne - field medic
Boromir88 - senior assistant to a professor of glaciology
Eomer of the Rohirrim - sea pilot
Loslote - rich funder's spoiled daughter
Morsul - federal grants lawyer
Brinn - polar bear biologist
Pitchwife - marine biologist
Nienna - navigator
Nogrod - old palaeoecologist with is own theory of climate change
Macalaure - palaeomathematician
sally - the original initiator of the expedition
Thinlómien - whale expert
Nerwen - mechanic
Roa - survival guide
Bes - room/store manager
Shasta - sled-dog handler
wilwa - crewmember
Greenie - senior assitant to important scientists in the company
tromkehra - cook/bartender

It is now Night 1. PMs with your roles are being sent to everybody now. As soon as you get your roles, Werewolves may PM each other. Ranger and Hunter may PM each other. Others, remain asleep. No posting on this thread until Day 1 starts. Everybody don't forget to turn yourselves invisible. (in your User CP => edit options, tick the box and save at the bottom of the page)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

The reconnaisance team returned at about 3:30 AM with no news about the missing man, yet the only logical explanation was that he indeed went overboard and fell into the rift created by the ship, and sunk. This realisation shook us, but that was only the beginning of the horrors which were about to unfold. The reconnaisance team also informed us that they have spotted what they thought was either an iceberg or a small island rock not very far to the southwest from our trail. We did not know yet the significance which this landmark will take for us in the following days. For now, all our thoughts were occupied with the damaged ship: it seemed, our chief engineer had stated, that we will be able to move, he only wanted to be sure that there is no damage which would prove critical later on and wanted to thoroughly check the ship himself. We left him with the repairs and went to sleep, as many of us had not slept at all that night.

If we only have not listened to our calm leader and sent a pan-pan call right at the moment, things might have taken a very different course. But nothing could have stopped what was happening when we woke up and found the communication, navigation and electrical control devices smashed hopelessly beyond repair. Horrified, we rushed below, only to find the lead engineer's motionless body entangled in a knot of power cables in the underdeck. His face was pallid, his eyes wide open, staring into the ceiling. Most of us shuddered in horror upon seeing his expression. What happened here? That was the mutual question, and we felt reluctant to answer it. And when at last few brave ones examined the body, our fears have been confirmed. This could not have been a suicide, our field medic stated. Somebody strangled that poor man. We stood there, eyeing each other, not knowing what to do, but then again our meteorologist roused us into action. His words were sharp and fast, but we felt he was right – it was necessary to make clear who was responsible for this and why he or she did it.

LIVING MEMBERS OF THE EXPEDITION:

Inziladun - meteorologist
Mnemosyne - field medic
Boromir88 - senior assistant to a professor of glaciology
Eomer of the Rohirrim - sea pilot
Loslote - rich funder's spoiled daughter
Morsul - federal grants lawyer
Brinn - polar bear biologist
Pitchwife - marine biologist
Nienna - navigator
Nogrod - old palaeoecologist with is own theory of climate change
Macalaure - palaeomathematician
sally - the original initiator of the expedition
Thinlómien - whale expert
Nerwen - mechanic
Roa - survival guide
Bes - room/store manager
Shasta - sled-dog handler
wilwa - crewmember
Greenie - senior assitant to important scientists in the company
tromkehra - cook/bartender

Day 1 begins. Werewolves, Hunter and Ranger, stop PMing. Everyone, you may start posting here.

[Mnemosyne]

Okay, who here is secretly funded by Evil Rich Corporations Who Want To Make Money At The Cost of Destroying The Environment?

...I've been watching too much Captain Planet lately...

On a more serious note, let's not be too eager to look for Grand Conspiracy Theories when there could be more simple motives at hand. Did anyone have something against our engineer?

*thinks more*

On the other hand, considering that we need our engineer to get out of here...

Does anyone have something against all of us?

Aside from the whole showering issue, of course.

[Nogrod]

We could apply my theory of "radical contingency and non-linear anticipation of quantumlevel events" I made a paper for the Royal Society on May 23th 2003 - and combine it with some fractal-analysis and the interesting pieces of hitherto unknown Mayan myths on predestination I have quite recently published a book about? ("Is the time-space continuum a trick by God to test our faith? - The early medieval Mayan metaphysical escathology approached from a modern scientific angle", Oxford University Press 2008)

For the question sure is which unlikely events are unlikely for real and which are unlikely only when predicted on the basis of bad old-fashioned mechanistic theories that should be thrown to the same grave with the most honourable sir Isaac (esq.)?

I mean you medics are always so down to earth and I appreciate it when you're stiching a wound or mending a broken collarbone, but you know, we have lots to learn from balancing our chakras first. Awakening the kundalini-energies would be releasing such an infinite reserve of untapped power we could run the whole planet on western living-standards without a single milligramme of emissions!

So let's not forget that the world is not as it looks like it is. Only brave and bold science not chained by everyday trivia and perceptual commonplaces can reveal the hidden truth of the universe - and thence of our fate as well.

Now please excuse me, I have some lab-work to do as my latest set of experiments requires my full attention rather immediately.

[Mnemosyne]

Nogrod, my friend, I have three words for you:

Peer.

Reviewed.

Journals.

I may not be familiar with your field, but I know a pedant when I see one, and let me tell you I don't trust any theory until it's been verified multiple times by multiple parties, and published in multiple journals, preferably with different interests (aside from the noble interest in Scientific Veracity) in mind to show that their minds haven't been swayed by anticipation of the results. That's why they like doing double blind tests in my field--though I haven't done much work on that sort of experimental stuff since my days in med school.

As for your chakra theories (though I do appreciate your appreciation for actual medical science), this is the best thing I can say in response (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0).

[Loslote]

Interesting discussion so far. Many long words. I found it inspiring. I'd try to understand it, but honestly, I'm too lazy. I'll just say Nog was being very scientific and Mnemo, for some reason, doesn't appreciate the lack of showers. Meh...not too much to comment on, is there?

[Nienna]

Wow kids way to be productive so far. Nogrod I'm shocked at you. This is a new side that I haven't seen. Not that it isn't a nice side but its different. :p

So we have 4 wolves, two gifteds and a secret role. Unless the secret role is a seer we don't have one of those. Our gifteds can talk though so they know each other which will give us known innocents later in the game. We've had a lot of early reveals without reason lately and I don't really recommend this. Voting toDay is necessary so someone will be lynched. We don't want to loose a gifted to day One lynching either so that would be the only real reason I can see for revealing.

I'll be around tonight and a few hours before deadline but I have class when deadline is so I won't be around then.

[Loslote]

We've had a lot of early reveals without reason lately and I don't really recommend this.

Agreed. McCaber's game was just painful. Let's try to avoid tons of reveals and false-reveals and counter-reveals and such. They pretty much just make major headaches. And like Nienna said, it's not really helpful.

Deadline is iffy for me, too, but I should be around. It's noon my time, but I probably can get on around eleven...here's hoping.

[Nogrod]

*hears the medic's words from the door and turns*

Show me a verified theory, any theory, and I'll show you a perpetuum mobile... :D

You can predict a thing happens - like that a hypothesis "works" - for any foreseen scenario, but they always predict only individual cases ("this pen on my hand will fall if I release it now"). But the fact that the prediction is fullfilled has nothing to do with verifying any abstract theory whatsoever (how do you jump from a positive result of an individual pen dropping to the law of gravitation?).

So let's just stick with probabilistic theories leaving room for indeterministic factors in the universe and forget that outdated mainstream hodgepodge that is suited for naturalists and other mechanical deteminists who don't have the faintest of the actual quantum-machanics behind the universe but are stuck with their 18th century views on things?

Oh, my test-tubes... excuse me...

[Inziladun]

Well, the local weather is not as bad as it might be. Based upon barometric, thermometric, and cloud observations, I don't think we'll see any precipitation for the next few days. However, with the destruction caused to our electronics, I no longer have access to radar and satellite information. As many of you are no doubt aware, temperature variations in this area can be considerable, due to low-presssure cyclonic activity moving in from the North Atlantic. It is most important that power to the ship be maintained.
Now, to the business that troubles us most. While I am a servant of empiricism by trade, my mind has always been rather imaginative. Certainly it seems the disppearance of the captain, and subsequent murder of the one best equipped to aid us in returning to habitable lands, are related. Why? I don't believe in such coincidences. But why would one of our own, whose fate is bound with ours at this juncture, wish to commit such acts? Could there be any explanation or motive that does not involve one of us?

[Pitchwife]

Fascinating as your expositions sound, my esteemed colleague Nogrod, I must admit I fail to perceive how they pertain to our current predicament.
All I can say with any certainty is that this death can hardly have been caused by any marine creature native to these latitudes that I'm familiar with. Anything with well-developped tentacles would probably qualify for the strangling, but I don't think a kraken or octopus could have demolished the controls like that, and the corpse doesn't show any marks of suction cups.
Nienna mentions wolves, which, however, are unlikely to be found in the Arctic Sea, miles from any land.
No, this looks like the work of human hands; and as we're quite isolated from civilization and outside interference, it seems we must look for the culprit among our team - appalling as the thought is. (Unless we have a stowaway on board; it would be a good idea to search the cargo holds.)

EDIT: x-ed with the meteorologist.

[Pitchwife]

Agreed. McCaber's game was just painful. Let's try to avoid tons of reveals and false-reveals and counter-reveals and such. They pretty much just make major headaches. And like Nienna said, it's not really helpful.
Miss Lottie, with all due respect, you seem to be confusing our serious emergency with one those online games your generation indulges in!
I confess, however, I sometimes play those games myself for recreation after hours of strenuous research. It just so happens I was part of the very game you mention, and my subjective impression was that the reveals actually were quite helpful - the villagers defeated the wolves, remember?
Not that I advocate any rash actions by specially talented people, if such be among our crew - not now, at least, while we still know very little about our situation. But the time may come.

[Boromir88]

As far as I'm concerned Legate deserved it for being too lazy to report my title properly. And I want to lynch sally for trying to go bigger. :eek:

On the brighter side, I would like to enter into a partnership/compare notes with Brinn for the obvious sarcastic reasons. ;)

[Loslote]

Miss Lottie, with all due respect, you seem to be confusing our serious emergency with one those online games your generation indulges in!
I confess, however, I sometimes play those games myself for recreation after hours of strenuous research. It just so happens I was part of the very game you mention, and my subjective impression was that the reveals actually were quite helpful - the villagers defeated the wolves, remember?
Not that I advocate any rash actions by specially talented people, if such be among our crew - not now, at least, while we still know very little about our situation. But the time may come.

Yes. They ended up being helpful. Mostly because no one knew what was going on. And remember, we skipped over the wolf in the batch, Morsul, and left him alive for much longer than he probably would have lasted otherwise. Plus, I had already written "for Morsul was the Agent" in my poem, and when I finally figured out what had happened, the poem was already ruined. :(

[Nerwen]

Well, here's the bad news: whoever smashed up the equipment did a very thorough job. I've had another look, but I getting it working again would be impossible, as far as I can see. So, we're on our own. Just confirming that.

Now, to the business that troubles us most. While I am a servant of empiricism by trade, my mind has always been rather imaginative. Certainly it seems the disppearance of the captain, and subsequent murder of the one best equipped to aid us in returning to habitable lands, are related. Why? I don't believe in such coincidences. But why would one of our own, whose fate is bound with ours at this juncture, wish to commit such acts?

Academic quarrel? You scientific types get carried away sometimes... *nods darkly*

Yes. They ended up being helpful. Mostly because no one knew what was going on. And remember, we skipped over the wolf in the batch, Morsul, and left him alive for much longer than he probably would have lasted otherwise.

Yes, I play those games too. Just because the baddies chose to give themselves away in one game doesn't mean they will again– and definitely doesn't mean it'll work that way in real life.

[Pitchwife]

Another possible motive - somebody's interested in sabotaging scientific progress. Hmmm, let me think... militant defenders of popular mythology who want to stop us from finding out the truth about Father Christmas? Somehow this doesn't look very promising...
Anyway, it's good to see some more of our colleagues participating in the discussion. Unfortunately, I must retire for a while and pickle some specimens, but I'll be back later in the Day, hoping for something more to go on by then. Oh, and I'd volunteer for having a look at the cargo holds, since I suggested it, but frankly, I don't care to go down there alone while a murderer's hiding on board.
See you later!

[Macalaure]

Pretty much nothing but academic disputes dominating the discussion so far. Not very thrilling. Obviously, our scientific efforts have to take the back seat now and finding out who killed our lead engineer has to be of primary priority. If we don't solve that problem first, all our results won't ever make it back into the civilised world.

I agree with Pitchwife that the murderer(s) are most likely among ourselves. However, the prehistoric equations I discovered have not yet led me to the slightest clue concerning their identity. I shall be back when there is more to go at.

[Inziladun]

Pretty much nothing but academic disputes dominating the discussion so far. Not very thrilling. Obviously, our scientific efforts have to take the back seat now and finding out who killed our lead engineer has to be of primary priority. If we don't solve that problem first, all our results won't ever make it back into the civilised world.

I quite concur. Survival must take precedence over science, when the two are in conflict with one another.
Having very little in the way of evidence, we are reduced to analysing one another, looking for suspicious behaviour.
Let's see....

Mnemosyne was the first to speak up about the current situation. The comment about 'conspiracy theories' seemed a bit odd, considering no one else had mentioned the possibility of the existence of something of that nature. Nothing else particularly strikes me about her.

Nogrod was going on about 'energies' that could power the world with zero harmful emissions. Oddly enough, I think I heard that fellow Nog on a talk radio show once. Coast To Coast AM With Art Bell, or something like that. ;)

Pitchwife has seemed level-headed thus far, trying to keep us addle-brained scientific types on focus in dealing with the issues of the murder and our ship's plight. And black humour, to boot.

Loslote and Nienna: Nothing of note.

Nerwen , our mechanic, says the damage to the ship is irrepairable. Most unwelcome news. All the more pressing then, is our goal to solve the death of the engineer and the disappearance of the captain.

Terribly little to go on, I'm afraid. It would be helpful if the rest of our group would sound off.

[Mnemosyne]

Inziladun, clearly you have failed to read up on your popular culture. Whenever any environmental expedition is sabotaged (as this one clearly is; anyone with an axe to grind against our engineer would have waited until after he'd fixed our ship) it's always evil capitalist corporations at work. Unless it's written by Michael Crichton, in which the environment itself is being carefully manipulated by evil environmentalist corporations to create the appearance of disaster and thus get the people to surrender more power to them.

As far as the role discussion goes... that's basically everyone's attempts to get something productive done on a Day One scenario. Since we're not given too much new material to chew over, I can't think of any other productive pot-stirring methods. At the same time, what else is there really to say, except, "Don't Reveal"?

*sigh*

Not much to be done, really. I can never get a feel for anyone off Day One, and the "what if this suspect's a gifted?" paranoia is doubled because the gifteds, like the baddies, know each other--giving the teams one more similarity that my addled pate really can't afford.

Fortunately the Day is young.

So in the meantime, I will leave you* with this poser...

What's less helpful: people filling the gamethread with mindless Day One bantering drivel, or people filling the gamethread with mindless platitudes about gameplay that everyone will agree upon anyway?

Gosh, where's a good controversy when you need it?

*not really

[Roa_Aoife]

*Unlocks weapon cabinet and loads a rifle*

All right people, let's not beat around the bush. Someone here is a killer, and we need to figure out who before they get the rest of us. For now, no one wanders off alone. Pairs, trios, whatever, just make sure you're with someone at all times. You eggheads over there- knock off the scientific debate. We have more important things to concern ourselves with.
[/in character posting]


Okay, now that that's out of the way: Early Day 1, I know, I know, but can we please get down to business? Yes *gasp* it's wolves. There are three of them. "Oh, how do you know that?" "This isn't an online game you know...."

Blah, blah, blah. Yes, it is. Thank you, Nienna and Loslote, for getting to the point. Can the rest of stop giving the wolves banter to hide in? For the record, I have nothing against in characterness, and everyone should have some fun with their character (I intend to), but when it gets in the way of game play it's going a bit too far.

I'm looking at you, Pitch. *eye to eye motion* Really, "no wolves in the artic sea..." :rolleyes: :p

Edit: Crossed with Mnemo

[Roa_Aoife]

I can never get a feel for anyone off Day One, and the "what if this suspect's a gifted?" paranoia is doubled because the gifteds, like the baddies, know each other--giving the teams one more similarity that my addled pate really can't afford.

You shouldn't concern yourself with that. It's the gifteds' job to look after themselves and us. It's our job to lynch wolves. Worrying over the gifteds will only help the wolves win. Focus on wolf hunting- it's the best you can do.

What's less helpful: people filling the gamethread with mindless Day One bantering drivel, or people filling the gamethread with mindless platitudes about gameplay that everyone will agree upon anyway?

Gosh, where's a good controversy when you need it?


Oh, Oh! Can we start up a "Day 1's are useless/ not useless" debate? Those are always so much fun.:D

[Mnemosyne]

Ooh, I actually have a succinct answer to that one:

"Day 1's are useful on Day 1 only when there is sufficient weirdness to start a discussion. All other Day 1's are only useful after the fact."

Or...

"Day 1's are useful when they nab us a wolf."

Okay, I can't think of anything else to say on that subject at the moment...

I should have asked for a fresh controversy, shouldn't I?

[Inziladun]

Okay, now that that's out of the way: Early Day 1, I know, I know, but can we please get down to business? Yes *gasp* it's wolves. There are three of them. "Oh, how do you know that?" "This isn't an online game you know...."

Three wolves? Really?

[Mnemosyne]

Gosh, double-posting...

Roa, as for whether ordos should think about gifteds in game... (and this actually can be a meritorious debate as long as it doesn't clog the thread, IMO)

Problem is, I've seen (and been in) games where time and again gifted people get lynched because people seriously thought they were wolves. But no one ever wants to talk about whether this suspect might actually be gifted or not because they never want to give the real wolves ideas.

Which is a totally legitimate concern. And why it's smart to limit talk about gifteds (yet here I am, talking about them... yeesh).

But the same paranoia's going to niggle at my brain, whether I voice it or not. I can't ignore it. And maybe it's bad experience, and maybe it's none of my business, but I don't want to do the wolves' job for them by lynching--or letting lynch--or forcing a reveal, precipitating a Night kill--the people who are supposed to help us.

That's probably all I'm going to say on the topic, because, Roa, you do have some points and if we talk about this too much it 1). distracts from finding wolves, and 2). generally exposes the Gifteds even more.

[Boromir88]

Three wolves? Really?

Ha, you got to that before I did. My understanding is 4 wolves...unless we want to enter into a debate over the # of wolves, plus whether one of them is a double-spy for us again? That was fun. :rolleyes:

I prefer this one though.

What's less helpful: people filling the gamethread with mindless Day One bantering drivel, or people filling the gamethread with mindless platitudes about gameplay that everyone will agree upon anyway?~Mnemo
I chose the mindless drivel of banter over saying what everyone agrees on (see Mac's..."I agree with Pitch's obvious statement")

But I also like a good debate over something substantial that is not so obvious. As every once in a while, someone brings up a new idea/strategy/theory/whatchamacallit that is not obvious, and provides a plethora of opinions.

Mnemo looks good.

Nog looks like he is going to enjoy this way too much. :p

Edit: crossed with Mnemo

[Macalaure]

A pointless summary, lacking anything better to do.


Mnemo does a wonderful Form-impression of hating Day Ones. Bravo!

Nogrod talked a lot, but has yet to contribute something useful.

Lottie has posted, but didn't say anything of consequence.

Nienna is trying to work with the very little we have. Fair enough.

Inzil says nothing that tries to look like something. Suspicious. Unfortunately, empirical knowledge tells me that I'm always led to believe he's guilty and then he's not.

Pitch didn't say much either, but he gives me an innocent feel, for some reason.

Boro has verified his existence. Go him.

Nerwen hasn't done anything remarkable either.

Roa lacks counting skills, but made me laugh. :)


PS: In my opinion, a gifted that manages to have the village believe s/he's a wolf is fully deserving of his/her inevitable fate. :p

edit: crossed with Boro - my "I agree with Pitch" was half-in-character, by the way.

[Inziladun]

Problem is, I've seen (and been in) games where time and again gifted people get lynched because people seriously thought they were wolves. But no one ever wants to talk about whether this suspect might actually be gifted or not because they never want to give the real wolves ideas.

Which is a totally legitimate concern. And why it's smart to limit talk about gifteds (yet here I am, talking about them... yeesh).

I don't think the gifteds, unless for some reason they become revealed to us, should be a concern at all. Let them do their thing, and we'll do ours: getting the wolves.
And you're right: I see no point in talking of it further.

x/d with Boro and Mac

[Boromir88]

I don't think the gifteds, unless for some reason they become revealed to us, should be a concern at all. Let them do their thing, and we'll do ours: getting the wolves.
And you're right: I see no point in talking of it further.


And how many times have we lynched gifteds because they need to look just as suspicious as wolves, but not too suspicious (making them look to us even more suspicious than the suspicious wolves) so the wolves don't kill them?

On the flip side, how many times do the reasonable, agreeable ones (myself often included in this, I admit) get free passes early, for being just that...reasonable and agreeable?

[Inziladun]

And how many times have we lynched gifteds because they need to look just as suspicious as wolves, but not too suspicious (making them look to us even more suspicious than the suspicious wolves) so the wolves don't kill them?

Huh? :p

[Roa_Aoife]

And how many times have we lynched gifteds because they need to look just as suspicious as wolves, but not too suspicious (making them look to us even more suspicious than the suspicious wolves) so the wolves don't kill them?

On the flip side, how many times do the reasonable, agreeable ones (myself often included in this, I admit) get free passes early, for being just that...reasonable and agreeable?


Firstly, oops. :o Four wolves....

Secondly, speak for yourself- half the suspicions against me are always, "She sounds so reasonable but you never can tell with Roa..." But then, why should we lynch the people who makes sense and are reasonable rather than the people who don't makes sense and are unreasonable? If we start throwing reasonableness in there as a suspicious action, we may as well just start voting at random, because there will be no point in analyzing anyone.

I agree with Mac- a gifted that gets themselves lynched deserves their fate. The only people who have a reason to try to spot gifteds are the wolves. The rest of us are supposed to be wolf spotting.

[Roa_Aoife]

So what exactly are you trying to say, Boromir?

[tromkehra]

*Unlocks weapon cabinet and loads a rifle*

All right people, let's not beat around the bush. Someone here is a killer, and we need to figure out who before they get the rest of us.

I completely agree, I don't want anyone stabbin' me in the back.

*Takes a gun from the cabinet.* I'll go with one or two of the 'egg heads,' as you've put it ma'am. Doubt they've ever had the need to fire a gun before.

[Nerwen]

I agree with Mac- a gifted that gets themselves lynched deserves their fate. The only people who have a reason to try to spot gifteds are the wolves. The rest of us are supposed to be wolf spotting.

Exactly. I mean, yes, it's true we've lynched gifteds a lot lately, to the point where I can understand people getting paranoid– but there's really not much the village as a whole can do to prevent it.

As for Boro... echoing Zil, what are you trying to say, Boro? That we should not lynch suspicious people? That we should lynch anyone who makes sense instead? Really?

EDIT:X'd with Lottie; fixed quotes.

[Boromir88]

So what exactly are you trying to say, Boromir?

I'm saying it's not as easy as "lets vote for wolves and any gifted who gets lynched deserves it." Because there is a logical and understandable reason for a gifted to want to look suspicious and hope it's not so suspicious they get lynched.

There is also a logical and understandable reason for wolves to want to look reasonable and agreeable so they don't get lynched. It's the dynamics of their situations.

Wolves biggest danger is the lynch, thus look reasonable to avoid it. The gifteds biggest danger is dying at night, by the wolves, thus they tend to want to attract suspicion to keep the wolves away.

Did I say we just go lynching all the reasonable ones? No. But it's a good start on Day 1, and lets try to separate the true ones from the fakers and don't be trigger happy on the people who jump out early as ones who make you "nervous." :rolleyes:

edit: crossed with Boro - my "I agree with Pitch" was half-in-character, by the way.~Mac
The suspicion was directed more towards Pitch for making such an obvious statement and that being the only thing that really stands out about him at the moment.

[Boromir88]

As for Boro... echoing Zil, what are you trying to say, Boro? That we should not lynch suspicious people? That we should lynch anyone who makes sense instead? Really?


Wolves can't make sense? That's a first. :rolleyes:

[Roa_Aoife]

Wolves can't make sense? That's a first. :rolleyes:

Seriously, if we start lynching people because they make sense, I'm quitting. Of course wolves can make sense. Of course innocents could lack sense. But saying we should lynch someone because they make sense is utterly ridiculous, and exactly what the wolves would want. They want the strong rational players that aren't drawing suspicion out of the way, because an innocent who doesn't draw suspicion is one less person to get lynched in place of a wolf. What you're suggesting basically gives the wolves a lot more places to hide, and little to fear in watching their step. It is because the wolves have to pretend that we can catch them. Targeting the reasonable means that the wolves don't have to be so careful. Your whole line of reasoning is flawed, and more than that, helps the wolves.

[Brinniel]

Ugh, I just remembered how awful this deadline is for me. I'm only going to be around for a small window during the first half of the Day, unfortunately. So I'll do my best to participate now, though I'm afraid it's not much.

Nienna seemed to be the first to move away from the banter, which I appreciate. Right now I'm just too tired to process any long bantery posts, so let's just stay on-topic, okay?

On the subject of the gifteds, I agree we just leave it alone and not worry about accidentally lynching them. Our roles are our own responsibility and it's up to the gifted how they play. If we lynch them, it's not our fault; they are the ones to blame because it is by their own actions that makes them suspicious. And anyway, if we focus too much on who the gifteds may be and how to avoid them, we may end up leaving clues for the wolves, which could be quite dangerous if any of them are accurate.

Btw, I don't think Boro is saying let's lynch those who make sense and leave alone anyone who is acting suspicious. I think he's just trying to say we need to keep in mind that not everyone who is obviously suspicious is a wolf (and may even be possibly gifted) and not everyone who makes sense is innocent. So we can't make any assumptions based on that alone. Which I agree.

How I hate Day Ones. Not that they're useless, but I always have trouble coming to any conclusions, especially this early in the Day. I don't think it'd be right for me to vote now since it'd have to be completely random and I'm not in the mood for randomness. So I may not vote at all toDay. There's a possibility I'll be able to pop in real quick and vote later toMorrow, but don't have any high expectations.

P.S. I also think we should keep in mind that the polar bears are an endangered species and we must work to save them. Because if we can't catch the wolves, the polar bears will totally do the job for us and eat them for breakfast. ;)

[Bes]

Well, we've got plenty of food, water and other good stuff. We could just hunker down for a while, wait for a rescue team to come out, and let the police handle this whole mess. Don't get me wrong, I won't sleep easy knowin' we got a murderer on our hands, but I don't know that we're any safer for panicking...
------------------------------------

Sorry I'm late. I usually won't be on most days.

I wish I had more to contribute for the first day? I guess the only thing striking me is how a lot of Boro's arguments lean towards "Don't kill suspicious people, they might be gifted!" followed by backpedaling when someone carries that to it's logical conclusion... To be fair, I'm over simplifying that, and his argument has been fully qualified and then rejoined by people more awake that myself.

So... I guess that means I have nothing of value to contribute after all. Uhm.

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever successfully forged an agreement to not place a lynch vote for the first day? It seems like a succinct solution to the dilemma, but the odds of getting all of the players to actually agree to it seems very low.

[Roa_Aoife]

Nope. Unfortunate as it may turn out to be should we lynch an innocent, the voting record is remarkably useful on the following Day.

[Mnemosyne]

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever successfully forged an agreement to not place a lynch vote for the first day? It seems like a succinct solution to the dilemma, but the odds of getting all of the players to actually agree to it seems very low.

Reduce our small chance of nabbing a wolf to no chance nabbing a wolf...

I think not.

The vote is the one powerful tool we as a group have; if we give that up all we are are meaningless numbers. Yeah, we might screw things up, but at least we did something.

Plus as Roa said lynch votes can be really helpful for analysis, plus all that the wolves would have to do is give us a completely flusterworthy no-trace kill and we'd be back in the same pickle.

And if we want to translate this into numbers... the wolves (and, to an extent, the Ranger) already have control of who dies toNight. We control (and yes, there are wolves in our number, but in this case they are just four among many) who dies toDay.

So, interesting idea (and definitely, I think, novel), but you wouldn't get me at least to go along with it.

[Bes]

Roa and Mnemo: Duly noted.

[Roa_Aoife]

I'm going to lock down in my cabin for while. Scream if someone gets attacked.

Translation: I have a persuasive speech to give tomorrow, extra early, and I have to give it completely from memory. I'm going to bed.

[Bes]

The stock room manager went a bit pale at the survival guide's statement, and retreated haltingly from the room, muttering something about checking the water inventory.
----------------------------------

I need to be getting to sleep, too. Hopefully I'll get back to the thread before night falls, but I'm not counting on it. Goodnight, Prison of Ice.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Here and reading.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

All right, so most of what I've read so far can be boiled down to -

Boro vs Roa, on the subject of "The Suspiciousness of Being Reasonable".

Other than that topic, there really hasn't been much discussion yet, has there? My two cents- It doesn't make sense to me that the reasonable people should be suspect. If that's the case, anyone playing in an "unreasonable" style would just be given a "bored ordo" pass, and we've seen how well that's turned out. (Right, sally? :p)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

(Also, this is an.... interesting deadline for me, in that (I think, anyway) it's 3pm for me, and I don't get out of class until 1pm, so... that's about when I can be expected to show up, about 2 hours before deadline.)

--------------------------------------

So it looks like we won't be going anywhere aboard this bucket of bolts any time soon. I'd appreciate it if one of our sciency-types could give me a reading on how thick the ice around us is likely to be - I'd like a way off this ship, if necessary.

I'll be overhauling the dogsleds. With twenty-four loyal, trustworthy, large Siberian huskys in devoted attendance... so don't nobody think of trying nothing.

[Nogrod]

A few short things, more later.

I would like to add one more thing into this "reasonableness discussion", namely that it's much more fun to play with reasonable and loud wolves than with silent submarines when one doesn't actually get to play at all as it's just second guessing.

Also I don't like Brinn's idea of not voting toDay. It's not only that the lynchings are our only weapon, but also the votes are one of the very few clues we have so not voting is kind of saying "I'm not going to let you read me". With this many players around it's probably a safe move.

And this. "Well, it seems quiet... I'll be back when there is more" is driving me crazy. Of course there isn't more if you don't do something! Why do some people assume they have the inalienable right to only talk after others have opened the game?

[Boromir88]

Thanks Brinn. :)

Whether you agree or disagree I don't care, but to threaten you will quit, don't you think that takes it too far Roa? If I think in this case someone "making sense" is wolvish behavior than glacier-melt as my witness I will. And to say we might as well randomly pull names out of a hat is ridiculous.

It is Frodo who when speaking of Aragorn thinks an evil servant would look more fair and vice versa, someone who is actually good could look foul. Take that literary philosophical rebuttal! :p

Targeting the reasonable means that the wolves don't have to be so careful. Your whole line of reasoning is flawed, and more than that, helps the wolves.~Roa
Again, did I say we target the reasonable, and only the reasonable? No. I'm pointing out the confliction between what Inzil said we should do.

I don't think the gifteds, unless for some reason they become revealed to us, should be a concern at all. Let them do their thing, and we'll do ours: getting the wolves.
The conflict with letting gifteds do what they do and we do what we do, is how bad Day 1s have been turning out. Gifteds have an understandable idea that by looking suspicious they are less likely to be wolf meat. What we do is lynch those who look suspicious, thus those we think wolves. Plus with 4 wolves, and they knowing who they are, this makes steering suspicion towards someone else besides one of them all the easier. See any major conflict there?

It is also just as likely, taking Professor Tolkien's advice, that a servant of the enemy would likely appear fair. And on Day 1, those who look like they are making sense, tend to get written off as innocent. Why is reasonableness a sign of innocence? It can be, but it can just as likely be a cunning wolf.

I wish I had more to contribute for the first day? I guess the only thing striking me is how a lot of Boro's arguments lean towards "Don't kill suspicious people, they might be gifted!" followed by backpedaling when someone carries that to it's logical conclusion... To be fair, I'm over simplifying that, and his argument has been fully qualified and then rejoined by people more awake that myself.~Bes
Thanks for pointing out you simplified it, but I wouldn't even call it an exaggeration. I call it all out misleading.

When did I backpedal? I've what anyone has seen happen before, that gifteds have just as much reason to purposefully attract suspicion as wolves have just as much reason to not want it. And that making sense doesn't make one innocent.

Both you and Roa are assuming that I'm on some anti-rationality crusade. I'm not. I'm speaking on Day 1, but too many times already we've been crippled on Day 1 because we simply "let the gifteds do what they need to do and we will do what we need to do?" But there is a major dilemma, because putting those two together has been leading to getting more gifteds lynched on Day 1 than wolves.

[Boromir88]

And this. "Well, it seems quiet... I'll be back when there is more" is driving me crazy. Of course there isn't more if you don't do something! Why do some people assume they have the inalienable right to only talk after others have opened the game?

Hasn't any of your degrees taught you anything? :p

Some people are masters at creating ideas and love leading out with those ideas. Others are also masters at creating ideas, but don't have the confidence to lead out with them. While others still are great at taking someone's created idea, and rolling with it, building on it, and making it better. Others still aren't the creative type, but take all what has been said and reach their own mind. And finally others would make perfect executioners, they carry out the all the orders and make things happen, otherwise there would just be a few washed-up preachers endlessly debating around in circles....look at the greeks. :p

I neither preach nor teach. I am what I am, and I know what I am. Someone's got to be. :rolleyes:

[Pitchwife]

OK, it's wolves after all then. I'll accept our survival expert's word on that, she should know how to evaluate emergency situations.
*gets out of character*
I agree about not lynching reasonable people, especially not those who have made an effort to turn this into a serious discussion - which would be Roa, Mnemo and Boro, most notably.
I'd like to point out, however, that being agreeable is another matter. Truth to be said, I regularly find myself agreeing with much too many people most of the time, but we should watch out for those who seem eager to rub everybody the right way.

Also I don't like Brinn's idea of not voting toDay. It's not only that the lynchings are our only weapon, but also the votes are one of the very few clues we have so not voting is kind of saying "I'm not going to let you read me". With this many players around it's probably a safe move.
It wasn't Brinn but Bes who suggested that, but I think it's excusable in her, as she's new to this. A mere slip?

[Pitchwife]

Sorry, but I have to be off again to (non-scientific) work. I'll be back about three hours before DL and hopefully find the time for a closer look at everybody then.

[tromkehra]

Well, we've got plenty of food, water and other good stuff. We could just hunker down for a while, wait for a rescue team to come out, and let the police handle this whole mess. Don't get me wrong, I won't sleep easy knowin' we got a murderer on our hands, but I don't know that we're any safer for panicking....

Well that's the thing, do we know if our ability to communicate with anyone outside this boat is even possible? Because if not then shouldn't we make plans now to get in contact with someone? I agree that we can't panic, but we need to be smart about what our options are.

[Inziladun]

The conflict with letting gifteds do what they do and we do what we do, is how bad Day 1s have been turning out. Gifteds have an understandable idea that by looking suspicious they are less likely to be wolf meat. What we do is lynch those who look suspicious, thus those we think wolves. Plus with 4 wolves, and they knowing who they are, this makes steering suspicion towards someone else besides one of them all the easier. See any major conflict there?.

I see your point now regarding Gifted survival strategy, and yes, that sort of thing has led to their being lynched. But I don't see any certain way of divining which we're looking at: a nervous Gifted, or a brash wolf. Do you have any ideas?

As for the notion of not voting on Day 1, I think it unproductive, and helpful only to the wolves.

[Morsul the Dark]

Working Today so I'll be present later on tonight after work for now though....

"Frankly, understand we gave you extra funds to replace equipment as it became worn down. Replacing Deliberately smashed machines is not nothing we are about to continue dealing with. I suggest we find who did this as quickly as possible so we don't continue wasting Taxpayers hard-earned money!"

My only observations at this point are these..

Boro is the only one really jumping out at me.... mostly because everyone else looks fairly reasonable which according to him at this point means they should be lynched simply seems like an odd reason to vote for someone... although it is an interesting thought and seems more thoughtful than deceitful...

only time will tell

[Nerwen]

It is also just as likely, taking Professor Tolkien's advice, that a servant of the enemy would likely appear fair. And on Day 1, those who look like they are making sense, tend to get written off as innocent. Why is reasonableness a sign of innocence? It can be, but it can just as likely be a cunning wolf.

You know what? We know that, Boro. Reasonableness can't prove innocence... but it can't prove guilt, either. Wolves try all kinds of tactics.

When did I backpedal? I've what anyone has seen happen before, that gifteds have just as much reason to purposefully attract suspicion as wolves have just as much reason to not want it. And that making sense doesn't make one innocent.

I wouldn't so much say you backpedalled as that you haven't made it at all clear what you are proposing. You certainly seemed to be implying that we should lynch helpful people first and suspicious ones last. Then you say you're not saying that, so what are you saying? That we shouldn't all jump on the first person who looks a bit odd, as that person might well be gifted? That I'd agree with– however, it's a point you could have made a lot more clearly and concisely.

Both you and Roa are assuming that I'm on some anti-rationality crusade. I'm not. I'm speaking on Day 1, but too many times already we've been crippled on Day 1 because we simply "let the gifteds do what they need to do and we will do what we need to do?" But there is a major dilemma, because putting those two together has been leading to getting more gifteds lynched on Day 1 than wolves.

And this is true... but do you have a better idea?

I neither preach nor teach. I am what I am, and I know what I am. Someone's got to be. :rolleyes:

What?

EDIT:X'd with Zil and Morsul.

[Macalaure]

The only interesting thing to talk about at this point appears to be Boro. I don't think he's a wolf, for the following reason. Wolf-Boro could certainly have accidentally put himself into the tight spot with #29, but he would know better than to keep on arguing a lost cause (lost not even necessarily because he's wrong, but because everybody disagrees with him, and you can already see a malreasoned bandwaggon looming). Wolf-Boro would have dropped it long ago.

This means that the actually interesting thing to talk about are the reactions to him. I see three possible wolfish responses. 1. Agreement, in an effort to lead the village astray side by side with an innocent Boro, 2. Plain disagreement, putting oneself on the majority's side anticipating the general disagreement or going along with it now that it's there, 3. Maintaining the discussion, so that the village wastes time talking about things that don't matter.

1: none
2: Nogrod, disagrees without a fuss, which actually doesn't look very suspicious; Pitch's comment might be suspicious.
3: Inziladun, starting with "Huh?" and continuing; Nerwen, first merely picking up what Roa and Inzil said, then going into attack now (which would look innocent if her tone wasn't so darn sinister); Morsul made himself comfortable on the fence.

Roa is innocent-looking because, while maintaining the discussion, she puts herself out there and doesn't just stay around the corners. Of course, we're talking about Roa here - so she's probably evil anyway. Brinn's mild defense looks genuine. Bes's response (#39) is a bit awkward, but doesn't fit my infallible categories.

Mnemo, Shasta, and trom ignore the matter, though Shasta at least acknowledges that it's being talked about (which I don't know what to think of).

[Thinlómien]

Although I've been and I am busy - so not necessarily much posting toDay especially as I'm sharing net with Greenie - I must say it feels so good to play ww again after missing the few latest games. *stretches* I've been just laughing at everybody's stupid jokes here and feeling sort of at home. Aww.

*cough* Now to business maybe. :D

Here's what I think of people this far:
Inziladun - seems okay enough, but knowing him, I wouldn't make quick judgements.
Mnemosyne - okay, here we go again, but she seems quite eyebrow-raising to me. Her posting seems to be bantering mixed with Captain Obvious statements to make her seem reasonable. Plus, she's been continuing the rather pointless "should be careful about gifteds" debate. That definetely doesn't make me feel good about her, although I must say that banter+Cap O.B. statements are an easy way for anyone to play in early Day1.
Boromir88 - is crazy and all over the place and sayiong weird stuff, but he doesn't really seem too bad; I think he would be a bit more careful as a wolf.
Eomer of the Rohirrim - not around.
Loslote - has not said much of consequence but is funny. Could be anything.
Morsul - no idea yet.
Brinn - seems like her normal self ie could be anything based on the evidence so far.
Pitchwife - I feel inclined to like him because he's funny, agreeable and makes sense (at times). But then again, especially as he himself pointed it out, I'm wondering if he's too agreeable to be good.
Nienna - I don't get why everybody considers her innocent. All I have seen her do this far is to make a few very Cap O.B. statements and indirectly starting the useless talk about being careful about lynching gifteds. And really, why does anyone need to say "we don't want to lynch any gifteds"? *takes a deep breath* Okay, I know I've suspected her on faulty reasons before, but at this point she does merit my suspicion.
Nogrod - another weird type. He is very nonsensical for himself: he popped in several times and most of his stuff is just banter. Normally he's more of the "cut the crap" sort, so I'm wondering if he's a wolf and more bantery because he doesn't really need to use his massive brain to finding wolves or enjoying his role way too much. Or both.
Macalaure - I hope is not making references at my relatively recent gifted performance. *glares* :p
sally - the original initiator of the expedition
Thinlómien - that's me, that's meeeeeeeeeee! *walks to the airplane and is never seen again*
Nerwen - seems rather controversial. The weird thing is that she doesn't usually do that as a wolf.
Roa - seems innocent this far. Let's not lynch her on Day3 (or was it 4? :D).
Bes - I appreciate her effort to get a grasp of the game, but looking forward to more stuff.
Shasta - seems quite good.
wilwa - hasn't been around.
Greenie - is waiting for me to give her the net...
tromkehra - looking forwards to seeing more out of character stuff.


edit: xed with Maccalaure (would sound Italian, eh?)

[Morsul the Dark]

A pointless summary, lacking anything better to do.


Mnemo does a wonderful Form-impression of hating Day Ones. Bravo!

Nogrod talked a lot, but has yet to contribute something useful.

Lottie has posted, but didn't say anything of consequence.

Nienna is trying to work with the very little we have. Fair enough.

Inzil says nothing that tries to look like something. Suspicious. Unfortunately, empirical knowledge tells me that I'm always led to believe he's guilty and then he's not.

Pitch didn't say much either, but he gives me an innocent feel, for some reason.

Boro has verified his existence. Go him.

Nerwen hasn't done anything remarkable either.

Roa lacks counting skills, but made me laugh. :)


PS: In my opinion, a gifted that manages to have the village believe s/he's a wolf is fully deserving of his/her inevitable fate. :p

edit: crossed with Boro - my "I agree with Pitch" was half-in-character, by the way.

Now this post I'm rereading more thoroughy since sleep apparently is less important than I previously was led to believe...

It has an odd tone about it... He(Or she, sorry name's a bit gender neutral) says basically the same thing about everyone but says it differently most important to me though are these ones-(I'll paraphrase)

Nog: not useful
Lottie: Nothing Consequential
Inzil: Says Something Says nothing

and then

Nienna: Trying to do something with nothing
Boro: Exists Go Him(Granted this has a sarcastic feel)
Pitch: Not much Feels innocent.

Nerwen is fairly ambiguous in his quote but these 6 have similiar descriptions but 3 positive and three negative but based seemingly on the same logic of not doing much.

[Nienna]

Ahhkk I have 5 minutes before work but I'll be on later.

I agree with Mac about Boro. He was just stating something and then when everyone jumped on it he defended the statement.

I see the Nog I know and love coming back.

Lommy is suspecting me for absolutely no reason... this seems vaguely familiar :rolleyes: .... I'm going to do my best not to suspect you out of pure retaliation right now.

No one else stands out to me.

Edit: Crossed w/ Morsul

[Morsul the Dark]

Nope. Unfortunate as it may turn out to be should we lynch an innocent, the voting record is remarkably useful on the following Day.

Sometimes it isn't recall my last bandwagon not a single wolf... *Ducks under bucket thrown by nienna*

and as for Boro everyone says he would be more careful as a wolf... I survived as long as I did in my first game with the opposite strategy go crazy"ducks again"... Boro's a crafty player don't rule anything out though for the moment not convinced either way.

Bes said she didn't want a vote... Now without a seer we wouldn't benefit at all from waiting a day we just lose another person. but she could just be getting her Sealegs HAHA get it we're on a boat... seriously why am I up I slept like four hours...

[A Little Green]

Honestly, though the debate about lynching/not lynching reasonable people has made people talk a lot and given us stuff to read, I can't help but see it as a rather stupid topic. We shouldn't take people as innocent if they make sense, but that doesn't mean we should lynch them, either. Being sensible has nothing to do with innocence or guilt. Neither has not being sensible. Therefore, lynching people based on making sense or not making sense is pointless. Debating about it is likewise pointless. Period.

I have a vague good feeling about Lommy, Brinn, Boro and Nog (!!!). I'm trying not to feel suspicious of people simply because of keeping up a pointless debate that helps us in no way (except, as I stated before, to give us stuff to read), but I could hazard a guess that there is at least one baddie there (namely thinking about Roa, Inzil, Morsul and Nerwen). Way too many people are under my radar.

I'll be popping in and out until DL, I have stuff to do but I can check and post regularly. Hooray!


EDIT: x-ed with Morsul

[A Little Green]

Sometimes it isn't recall my last bandwagon not a single wolf... *Ducks under bucket thrown by nienna*But surely voting records can be highly useful even if there aren't bandwaggoning wolves!

[Morsul the Dark]

That is true, however I personally place less faith in them than other people... I mean especially Day 1 Votes people tend to make votes based on strange or small points. That being Said I understand Why people put stock into them. But looking back I don't see many cases where a wolf was nabbed based on a vote. It's a tough call...

[Morsul the Dark]

I Just realized what the deadline is... 4PM by my time... I'm going to be at work... um... I don't really want to vote now because I only have a few suspects and they're no strong at all....

Just looked at the rules... DL says 9pm GMT making it 8pm for me... however day 1 started at 5pm so 4pm for me....

Should I add 24 hours to that first post or go by the admin thread rules:(:confused:

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I Just realized what the deadline is... 4PM by my time... I'm going to be at work... um... I don't really want to vote now because I only have a few suspects and they're no strong at all....

Just looked at the rules... DL says 9pm GMT making it 8pm for me... however day 1 started at 5pm so 4pm for me....

Should I add 24 hours to that first post or go by the admin thread rules:(:confused:

To state it clearly, DL is the time of when the Day 1 narration was posted (the one labeled "Expedition Journal - Day 1 Entry", the last post of mine on this thread, simply). So you should be able to read the time from there if you are unsure. Although I thought I have counted the DL time correctly.

[Nerwen]

I see three possible wolfish responses. 1. Agreement, in an effort to lead the village astray side by side with an innocent Boro, 2. Plain disagreement, putting oneself on the majority's side anticipating the general disagreement or going along with it now that it's there, 3. Maintaining the discussion, so that the village wastes time talking about things that don't matter.

Mac, even on your own terms that doesn't make sense... because in fact ignoring an innocent Boro would also be a possible wolvish response– I should say a probable one. At least one wolf nearly always keeps out of the limelight.

Meanwhile, it being Day One, peculiar statements are going to draw attention. There's not much else to go on, after all. Boro has been saying something perfectly obvious as though it's a revelation; sometimes he seems to be be saying we should lynch on that basis and sometimes not... and if not, I don't see why he's going on about it.

As for your saying I'm "attacking" him and being "sinister"... no idea where you're getting that from.

EDIT:X'd with some Morsuls and Greenies. Also the mod.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

A thought to greet you with, as I bright the day (insert -yawn-):
That is true, however I personally place less faith in them than other people... I mean especially Day 1 Votes people tend to make votes based on strange or small points. That being Said I understand Why people put stock into them. But looking back I don't see many cases where a wolf was nabbed based on a vote. It's a tough call...

(bolding mine, for emphasis)

I haven't played WW with Morsul before, but if this isn't the most prime example of wishy-washy fence-sitting I've ever seen...!

[Morsul the Dark]

Ok so the Deadline(If I counted right Is While I'm at work)

So uh um Boro or Mac....

Boro Seemed strange for what he was saying and it was Suspicious but as read it again seems reasonable but then again b his own logic I shouldn't dismiss him because of it;)

Mac hasn't said much but the quote I talked about earlier still bugs me and has a uncomfrtable feel to it he used the same basic logic of not posted much for 8 people yet came up with 3 innocent 3 bad and 2 neutral...

boro mac boro mac boro mac.......


++Macalaure

Not just that one post he also calls Nerwen sinister which I never saw or thught so it felt like a tossed suspicion

He also basically came after anyone who disagreed with Boro.

The only interesting thing to talk about at this point appears to be Boro. I don't think he's a wolf, for the following reason. Wolf-Boro could certainly have accidentally put himself into the tight spot with #29, but he would know better than to keep on arguing a lost cause (lost not even necessarily because he's wrong, but because everybody disagrees with him, and you can already see a malreasoned bandwaggon looming). Wolf-Boro would have dropped it long ago.

I just disagree with this if he talked himself into a corner he could keep it up to look innocent More importantly if he Is innocent it would make Mac look god for defending him.

Not much but being forced to vote now....

[Morsul the Dark]

A thought to greet you with, as I bright the day (insert -yawn-):


(bolding mine, for emphasis)

I haven't played WW with Morsul before, but if this isn't the most prime example of wishy-washy fence-sitting I've ever seen...!

Let me Explain, I believe vote records have Some value but some others seem to think they're the be-all end-all of reasonings...:p

They can be manipulated and distorted by clever wolves.

And nice to play with someone new.

Ok should have started work preparations 10 minutes ago... oops see you guys on the other side... maybe:rolleyes:

[Nogrod]

I agree with Mac- a gifted that gets themselves lynched deserves their fate. The only people who have a reason to try to spot gifteds are the wolves. The rest of us are supposed to be wolf spotting.Okay, looking at that, I'll brave to voice this concern my wolf spotting has brought me to face.

Roa said...
Yes *gasp* it's wolves. There are three of them.That was an intentional "mistake". It just has to be.

So Roa tried to mislead us about her knowledge of the situation - and I can't see a reason what a gifted Roa would gain from that against the wolves at Nights as they would not start thinking she's someone they can afford to ignore from that. But a wolf-Roa might gain the edge in a possible tight voting if people thought she was not up to the situation...

If no one else screams a wolf toDay my vote will definitively go to Roa.

[Nerwen]

Okay, looking at that, I'll brave to voice this concern my wolf spotting has brought me to face.

Roa said...
Originally Posted by Roa
Yes *gasp* it's wolves. There are three of them.
That was an intentional "mistake". It just has to be.

Why? If anything lupine, it looks more like one of those "counting" slips. But the thing is, there were originally going to be three wolves. How do you know she didn't just get it wrong?

[Nogrod]

How do you know she didn't just get it wrong?As an ordo I know it. 'nuff said - meaning we're coming to the "uncomfortable zone" here and I'm not willing to argue anything as it's one of those things a player is not allowed to produce evidence for (which is actually just fair). Everyone can use their little grey cells though... and I suggest you all ordos do it and see it yourselves.

[Inziladun]

This means that the actually interesting thing to talk about are the reactions to him. I see three possible wolfish responses. 1. Agreement, in an effort to lead the village astray side by side with an innocent Boro, 2. Plain disagreement, putting oneself on the majority's side anticipating the general disagreement or going along with it now that it's there, 3. Maintaining the discussion, so that the village wastes time talking about things that don't matter.

Sounds as if you're saying anyone who said anything in response to Boro could be evil. Aren't you painting with a rather broad brush?

x/d with Nerwen and Nog

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Hello all.

I found the jump-on-Boromir quite odd, because I could see exactly what he was saying. To answer Nerwen's concern about his stating the obvious, I don't think it hurts to remind the group that wolves are often out to look as normal and as reasonable as possible. The situation escalated, perhaps because the group was looking for something to argue over.

Tells me nothing about Boro but gives something to ponder over those who exaggerated his point.

Aye, Nogrod, soon as I saw Roa's counting-mistake I remarked: "intentional". Not sure what it means, though. I wouldn't be quick to lynch Roa because she brings a lot to the table in terms of discussion.

Mac seems tricky; Morsul seems a bit too slippery. I've got my eye on Bes too because her post about Boro was not so great (as argues by Boro himself).

I tend to think it's really easy for wolves to survive Day One, and that should give an indication of how I'm going to vote today.

[Nerwen]

As an ordo I know it. 'nuff said - meaning we're coming to the "uncomfortable zone" here and I'm not willing to argue anything as it's one of those things a player is not allowed to produce evidence for (which is actually just fair). Everyone can use their little grey cells though... and I suggest you all ordos do it and see it yourselves.

Yes, but people don't always pay close attention to things, especially if they don't have a role.

[Roa_Aoife]

The only interesting thing to talk about at this point appears to be Boro. I don't think he's a wolf, for the following reason. Wolf-Boro could certainly have accidentally put himself into the tight spot with #29, but he would know better than to keep on arguing a lost cause (lost not even necessarily because he's wrong, but because everybody disagrees with him, and you can already see a malreasoned bandwaggon looming). Wolf-Boro would have dropped it long ago.

Ironically, I agree with you on this point, because it doesn't typically help a wolf to be the center of a debate, and on a very unpopular side of the debate at that. If he had tried to drop it, that would have been more suspicious. On the whole, it's just a bad idea, and one that is dangerous to the village, but I don't think that's how he meant it.


Roa is innocent-looking because, while maintaining the discussion, she puts herself out there and doesn't just stay around the corners. Of course, we're talking about Roa here - so she's probably evil anyway.

*points to sig*


I'd like to point out, however, that being agreeable is another matter. Truth to be said, I regularly find myself agreeing with much too many people most of the time, but we should watch out for those who seem eager to rub everybody the right way.

This is very true. Agreeableness and reasonableness are two different facts, and wolves tend to not want to make themselves lynchable by getting on everyone's nerves.

Okay, looking at that, I'll brave to voice this concern my wolf spotting has brought me to face.

So Roa tried to mislead us about her knowledge of the situation - and I can't see a reason what a gifted Roa would gain from that against the wolves at Nights as they would not start thinking she's someone they can afford to ignore from that. But a wolf-Roa might gain the edge in a possible tight voting if people thought she was not up to the situation...

If no one else screams a wolf toDay my vote will definitively go to Roa.

What? Huh? Really? First, you spend your posts using in character banter, and now you decide I'm guilty on a number slip? With all do respect, are you on something? This is the most ridiculous thing I've seen yet.

Also, Bes is male....

Edit: fixed quote

[Brinniel]

Also I don't like Brinn's idea of not voting toDay. It's not only that the lynchings are our only weapon, but also the votes are one of the very few clues we have so not voting is kind of saying "I'm not going to let you read me". With this many players around it's probably a safe move.

And I'm sure you'd call it equally safe if I were to randomly vote instead. :rolleyes: But at that point of the Day when it's too early to have the slightest suspicion, what else am I supposed to do?

It wasn't Brinn but Bes who suggested that, but I think it's excusable in her, as she's new to this. A mere slip?
I'm pretty sure Nogrod is talking about my own decision not to vote because it was still too early in the Day, even if I might not return.

But anyway, I am back now, for a short time at least (my participation may be spotty since I am at work). And if I have enough time to look back at some things and see enough to form a suspicion, then I will vote before I leave again.

I don't like the jump on Boro either. I personally found his message to make perfect sense, so I don't really know what the reactions are all about and for that reason, I would like to go back and take a look at those who did jump on him.

Also, I think voting for someone based only on what you think is a 'slip' is rather ridiculous. If you think that way, then fine. But have some evidence to further back up that suspicion before making the vote.

[satansaloser2005]

Frantic busy (and completely rubbish) day so I don't know if I'll be voting. I just wanted to post this on the game thread so you all could see it. I'll do my best, but Mondays rather stink around here.

Also....ungrateful hacks! I do all this work to set things up and plan and then someone starts killing people? I don't feel the love, fellas, not at all.

[Nogrod]

I must agree that questioning after Boro's "gifted talk" was a bit odd - as Boro talked sense. And it was first Roa and Nerwen who made the questions - and they are two players who should really understand what Boro was saying! As a rule of thumb (which can be broken of course in individual cases) gifted needs to look a bit suspicious so that the wolves think they can get her/him lynched and don't "waste" their Nightkill on that person.

Accidentally (?) it was also Nerwen who popped up to suggest defences for Roa after I voiced my trouble wth her. So a piece of bold team-work?

Well, not necessarily, but worth bearing in mind.


Yes, Brinn, you're correct. I meant your suggestion that you might not vote. I'd say everyone should vote. If one has to vote early then do not vote random (if there are any real "random votes" - but throwing dices etc.) but use your guts or hunches. Not voting is not playing fair but sneaking.


EDIT: Means you as well Sally... :)

[Boromir88]

I wouldn't so much say you backpedalled as that you haven't made it at all clear what you are proposing. You certainly seemed to be implying that we should lynch helpful people first and suspicious ones last. Then you say you're not saying that, so what are you saying? That we shouldn't all jump on the first person who looks a bit odd, as that person might well be gifted? That I'd agree with– however, it's a point you could have made a lot more clearly and concisely.

I can do blunt, but clear and concise is not my thing.


Meanwhile, it being Day One, peculiar statements are going to draw attention. There's not much else to go on, after all. Boro has been saying something perfectly obvious as though it's a revelation; sometimes he seems to be be saying we should lynch on that basis and sometimes not... and if not, I don't see why he's going on about it.

Perhaps it is something that obvious, but if it is that obvious, why do we keep realizing it only after "crap...lynched another gifted Day 1?"

What? Huh? Really? First, you spend your posts using in character banter, and now you decide I'm guilty on a number slip? With all do respect, are you on something? This is the most ridiculous thing I've seen yet.~Roa
But it looks so much like purpose slip, because I know what Nog is talking about and I double-checked the captain's notes even before your number slip. You gasp about wolves, and then for some reason give the number of them, but it's the wrong number.

I admit I scan the rules and am liable to miss things, but if someone can't get the number of wolves correct, or the roles that's either plain laziness to not read the captain's notes or someone's faking ignorance. And in this circumstance the number of wolves was stated in more than one place. You are anything but lazy in your analysis Roa, to state the wrong number of wolves, looks more than an innocent slip or failure in double checking.

And just as quick as people jumped on, I'm not liking everyone jumping off! Aside from Brinn, Mac, and Eomer I don't trust those suddenly withdrawing from suspecting me.

Edit: crossed with sally and Nog

[satansaloser2005]

I must agree that questioning after Boro's "gifted talk" was a bit odd - as Boro talked sense. And it was first Roa and Nerwen who made the questions - and they are two players who should really understand what Boro was saying! As a rule of thumb (which can be broken of course in individual cases) gifted needs to look a bit suspicious so that the wolves think they can get her/him lynched and don't "waste" their Nightkill on that person.

Accidentally (?) it was also Nerwen who popped up to suggest defences for Roa after I voiced my trouble wth her. So a piece of bold team-work?

Well, not necessarily, but worth bearing in mind.


Yes, Brinn, you're correct. I meant your suggestion that you might not vote. I'd say everyone should vote. If one has to vote early then do not vote random (if there are any real "random votes" - but throwing dices etc.) but use your guts or hunches. Not voting is not playing fair but sneaking.


EDIT: Means you as well Sally... :)


*pets Nog* Don't worry, precious, I'm hoping to vote. I just consider it more courteous to let you know of the possibility that I may not than for you all to be waiting for me to vote at the end of the Day and have me not show up.

[Roa_Aoife]

I must agree that questioning after Boro's "gifted talk" was a bit odd - as Boro talked sense. And it was first Roa and Nerwen who made the questions - and they are two players who should really understand what Boro was saying! As a rule of thumb (which can be broken of course in individual cases) gifted needs to look a bit suspicious so that the wolves think they can get her/him lynched and don't "waste" their Nightkill on that person.


What Boro said didn't make sense- he said that wolves are reasonable that gifteds aren't, implying that we ought to be lynching the reasonable ones. (By the way, you most certainly do NOT fall into that category.) Reasonableness is a terrible reason to lynch someone. Yes, the gifted need to be somewhat suspected to live, but it's not our job to worry about them.

Now who's trying to continue the debate? Oh, that would be you. By carrying on about the gifted an what they're doing, you are giving pointers to the wolves about how to spot gifted, and you're distracting the village from doing actual wolf-hunting. Not to mention the whole idea of what Boromir says discourages us from voting for people that we find suspicious for fear that they may be gifted, something that you seem keen to press on everyone while at the same time coming up with ludicrous suspicions that have no merit, further distracting the village.

[Roa_Aoife]

But it looks so much like purpose slip, because I know what Nog is talking about and I double-checked the captain's notes even before your number slip. You gasp about wolves, and then for some reason give the number of them, but it's the wrong number.

The gasp was sarcastic. I thought that was obvious. I was annoyed by the lack of actual game play in favor of in character banter, even to the point of saying that we didn't know there were wolves, when we all clearly do.

I admit I scan the rules and am liable to miss things, but if someone can't get the number of wolves correct, or the roles that's either plain laziness to not read the captain's notes or someone's faking ignorance. And in this circumstance the number of wolves was stated in more than one place. You are anything but lazy in your analysis Roa, to state the wrong number of wolves, looks more than an innocent slip or failure in double checking.

In my analysis, your right, I like to be thorough. But I scan admin threads, and I typically assume three wolves, because that's the typical number. What I don't like is how when I made my slip, you were all giggles. Now that someone has said, "Oh that's suspicious," you agree.

And just as quick as people jumped on, I'm not liking everyone jumping off! Aside from Brinn, Mac, and Eomer I don't trust those suddenly withdrawing from suspecting me.


Just to be clear, I said you were wrong, not suspicious. I believe you wouldn't have continued on like that were you evil. This is why we put pressure on people- to see how they react. Your reaction cleared you in my books, for now, at least.

[Thinlómien]

Does anybody else smell Nogrod&Roa collaboration in the air? :rolleyes:

[Nogrod]

What? Huh? Really? First, you spend your posts using in character banter, and now you decide I'm guilty on a number slip? With all do respect, are you on something? This is the most ridiculous thing I've seen yet.
IC = late night for me and just few posts on the thread - and I've kind of lost my appetite for Captain Obvious -stuff.

Am I on something? Well I am actually on bagging us a wolf. And am pretty serious about it.

Oh, and:
What Boro said didn't make sense- he said that wolves are reasonable that gifteds aren't, implying that we ought to be lynching the reasonable ones.Okay. Let's see what stirred all this talk...
And how many times have we lynched gifteds because they need to look just as suspicious as wolves, but not too suspicious (making them look to us even more suspicious than the suspicious wolves) so the wolves don't kill them?

On the flip side, how many times do the reasonable, agreeable ones (myself often included in this, I admit) get free passes early, for being just that...reasonable and agreeable?I really can't see what you see there Roa. I see there a reasonable remainder that we easily lynch gifteds as they need to look a bit suspicious in general (an especialy more inexperienced players may actually be a little nervous overreacting to things and thus look guilty, that can happen to a veteran as well) - and that wolves playing reasonable are easily slipping under our radars early on. To me that doesn't imply we should lynch the reasonable ones but to be careful / to remember there is this side as well.

Of course we should lynch those who look suspicious, but looking at the lynchings from several games backwards our statistics make pretty sad reading... So we should bear that in mind. It's a different thing to say than "lynch the reasonable / do not lynch suspicious looking people"!

So making a mountain out of a molehill?

[Nerwen]

And it was first Roa and Nerwen who made the questions - and they are two players who should really understand what Boro was saying! As a rule of thumb (which can be broken of course in individual cases) gifted needs to look a bit suspicious so that the wolves think they can get her/him lynched and don't "waste" their Nightkill on that person.

Perhaps it is something that obvious, but if it is that obvious, why do we keep realizing it only after "crap...lynched another gifted Day 1?"

Yes, but I acknowledged that point – see my posts at #34 and #56.

I mean, yes, it's true we've lynched gifteds a lot lately, to the point where I can understand people getting paranoid– but there's really not much the village as a whole can do to prevent it.

Then you say you're not saying that, so what are you saying? That we shouldn't all jump on the first person who looks a bit odd, as that person might well be gifted? That I'd agree with

What I'm saying is that this is true... but it's also kind of pointless, and doesn't really lead anywhere. I think that criticism's perfectly valid, as was asking you for an alternative. And that's pretty much all I did... despite the fact that I was supposedly "jumping" on you.

Honestly, if any molehill's having a mountain made of it, it's this "everyone jumped on Boro!" meme.

I admit I scan the rules and am liable to miss things, but if someone can't get the number of wolves correct, or the roles that's either plain laziness to not read the captain's notes or someone's faking ignorance. And in this circumstance the number of wolves was stated in more than one place. You are anything but lazy in your analysis Roa, to state the wrong number of wolves, looks more than an innocent slip or failure in double checking.

Okay, but isn't this verging on forbidden meta-reasoning? Besides, maybe she did get lazy this once.

EDIT:X'd with Roa, Lommy and Nogrod. (Yes, the "molehill" is a coincidence!)

[Roa_Aoife]

So making a mountain out of a molehill?

The only one doing that is you. I never suspected Boromir, I only disagreed with him. You're the one turning this into a huge deal and carrying on with it. Not to mention the whole number slip thing. That's not making a mountain out of a molehill?

A reasonable reminder of what, exactly, Nogrod? That we don't want to lynch gifteds? Well, duh, we all know that. What do you make of the second part of his statement? That wolves slip by on reasonableness? How do you take that?

[Nerwen]

So making a mountain out of a molehill?

Honestly, if any molehill's having a mountain made of it, it's this "everyone jumped on Boro!" meme.

You're the one turning this into a huge deal and carrying on with it. Not to mention the whole number slip thing. That's not making a mountain out of a molehill?

Mountain building seems to be a popular hobby on this thread...:D

[Roa_Aoife]

Mountain building seems to be a popular hobby on this thread...:D

I believe it's Nogrod's favorite past time-

[Nogrod]

What do you make of the second part of his statement? That wolves slip by on reasonableness? How do you take that?Well, people like Brinn, Pitchie, Greenie, etc... tend to slip under everyone's radar because they are so very considerate and reasonable. And you should be knowledgeable of their stunning victories! They are the most dangerous wolves there are as you don't normally have anything on them because they play so carefully (and reasonably) and they really have triumphed.

Btw. I'm not too interested in you suspecting or just disagreeing with Boro. That's quite off the mark.

Okay, but isn't this verging on forbidden meta-reasoning? Besides, maybe she did get lazy this once.Like you on her laziness... :rolleyes:

But to be honest. It actually is, at least in part, meta-reasoning and I said so earlier talking about an "uncomfortable zone". I'm convinced of her guilt and can't / shouldn't act otherwise. But I'm not going to state anything more on that side of the issue but will continue trying to find any other things there could be (in a few hours as I now have to get off for a while).

(Heh, feels like my first game here years ago when I was the seer and dreamt of Roa on the first Night and then tried to convince others she was a wolf while not being able to just say why... Oh those were the days... :))

"Mountain building"... I love it everytime I have time for it! :D

[Brinniel]

Does anybody else smell Nogrod&Roa collaboration in the air?
That already happened last game. Back then it was quite fun since I was teamed with them, but if they are in cahoots together yet again, just kill me now. :p

Btw, I'm voting shortly since I'm done with work soon and I'm tired of looking over my shoulder in fear of getting yelled at by my boss..

[Macalaure]

It has an odd tone about it... He(Or she, sorry name's a bit gender neutral) says basically the same thing about everyone but says it differently most important to me though are these ones-(I'll paraphrase)

....

Nerwen is fairly ambiguous in his quote but these 6 have similiar descriptions but 3 positive and three negative but based seemingly on the same logic of not doing much.First off, it's he. ;)

Then I don't understand where you're heading off to. Sure all 7 comments are similar - there wasn't much to draw conclusions from - but clearly (to me), 5 are neutral, one slightly negative (Inzil), and one slightly positive (Pitch). "Odd tone" is a very vague accusation. Can't argue with that...

Your reasons for your vote seem to come down to disagreements about Nerwen and Boro, mostly. I definitely did not come after everybody who disagreed with Boro, though. That's a misrepresentation.

I just disagree with this if he talked himself into a corner he could keep it up to look innocentMaybe, but most likely, if he keeps it up, he will end up rubbing a sufficient number of people the wrong way and be lynched. An innocent who believes in his theory would risk that, not a wolf.


because in fact ignoring an innocent Boro would also be a possible wolvish response– I should say a probable one.Never claimed that my generalizations were perfect. In fact, I even joked about just that. I still think approaches like that are helpful, though. You criticise that I will miss at least one wolf with it - I say I will pick at least one wolf with it (or at least it helps to).

Meanwhile, it being Day One, peculiar statements are going to draw attention.That's how Day1's go a lot. One person makes a series of strange comments and then gets lynched for it - sometimes it's a wolf, most of the times not. I read Boro's comments, and while I disagree with them, I don't think they point to his guilt. I think that perfectly justifies looking at other people's reactions to them. I don't see the problem at all.


Sounds as if you're saying anyone who said anything in response to Boro could be evil. Aren't you painting with a rather broad brush?This is almost exactly a copy of what Morsul and Nerwen said before. *raises eyebrows severely*


Unless people start giving a better reason to suspect Roa than that slip, I shall call the whole thing silly.

[Roa_Aoife]

I'm convinced of her guilt and can't / shouldn't act otherwise. But I'm not going to state anything more on that side of the issue but will continue trying to find any other things there could be (in a few hours as I now have to get off for a while)

Nogrod, you say you're convinced of my guilt, but you refuse to give a reason why besides meta-gaming. And you openly state that you're looking for reasons to lynch me, meaning that you haven't actually got any.

I am now convinced that the secret role is the cobbler, and Nogrod is it. He's clearly hinting at being the seer, which the seer Nogrod wouldn't do, because he knows better than to do something so risky. Further more, he can't be the seer, because he most certainly wouldn't attack me like this if he was. Make no mistake, this is a cobbler planning a false reveal.

++Nogrod

[Thinlómien]

I think the way Nogrod and Roa attack each other seems rather fabricated, so I'm assuming one or rather more probably both are wolves. Brinn, I knew they were in cahoots (I couldn't escape Nogrod's celebrations of that in RL), but I don't think that makes it improbable they could be fellows again (especially as Legate didn't play last time, but that goes already slightly meta). But really, if they were both innocent, why would they do this, with absolutely no evidence against each other and without recognising the baselessness of their accusations?

As for other stuff, I feel I can't quite get a grasp on the game. I suspect Nogrod and Roa, and Nienna and Mnemo a bit.

[Boromir88]

In my analysis, your right, I like to be thorough. But I scan admin threads, and I typically assume three wolves, because that's the typical number. What I don't like is how when I made my slip, you were all giggles. Now that someone has said, "Oh that's suspicious," you agree.
True, I just wanted to make it known I noticed the mistake. The response was actually directed towards Inzil though, who asks "really?" and I thought I was seeing deja vu from last game. I didn't say anymore, because like Nog was unsure of, and Nerwen wonders if we are tiptoeing a line.

For the record, I usually assume there are 3 wolves too, and sometimes their number is unclear, which leads to understandable slips. However, Legate articulated their number more than once, and so any honest slip ups seem less likely.


What I'm saying is that this is true... but it's also kind of pointless, and doesn't really lead anywhere. I think that criticism's perfectly valid, as was asking you for an alternative. And that's pretty much all I did... despite the fact that I was supposedly "jumping" on you.

Honestly, if any molehill's having a mountain made of it, it's this "everyone jumped on Boro!" meme.
I haven't considered it as an "attack" against me, and I agree with the last sentence, see my last post.

Okay, but isn't this verging on forbidden meta-reasoning? Besides, maybe she did get lazy this once.
If someone misrepresents the rules (either honestly or feigned) I see no reason why:

1. It should not be corrected
2. I see no reason others pointing out the number was provided in more than one place shouldn't be allowed.

There are certain meta-reasons that are always, and justifiably, off limits. The problem becomes, and I've said this to others before, believe it or not I've been holding back more than usual lately out of fear it's meta-reason and that's just unfair/unfun to everyone. But if someone uses meta-reasons as a defense for themselves or an excuse how fair is that?

The fact is Roa stated a wrong number, whether it's an honest mistake or faked ignorance, I don't know. But I don't see anything wrong with Nog wondering that an honest mistake is less likely considering it wasn't something that I found terribly unclear nor uncommunicated by Legate.

I will say because of Nog's post about it, I buy the honesty in bringing it forward. If he's pulling one over kudos. Now he could be misleading, making a mountain out of a molehill, but it shows an honest willingness to lynch wolves.

That being said, Nog do you really think wolf-Roa would purposefully state the wrong number of wolves? What does she gain from acquiring what will surely be lots of uneeded attention?

True as your heart may be, I'm not going to vote for Roa based on those reasons. I intend to vote for people who have been around the block more than once and I've come to expect more from, but so far not seeing it.

Such as Inzil, Nienna, Pitch, and Mnemo. I know all about the fact that no one can dedicate the same time, or be as available as others. But you have all made your presense known throughout the Day, yet nothing stands out, besides naming a few people and/or saying you're here, but there's no more time to comment. Nienna, I find your second post a half- attempt to contribute something (please don't take offense to that, I'm just saying I know you're one of the quieter thinking types, but I've still come to expect more out of you). And Mnemo in many ways you started the questions and controversies, but have since hushed up about it.

Which leads me also to Lommy...
Does anybody else smell [B]Nogrod&Roa collaboration in the air? :rolleyes:
I smell a tentative Lommy who I have been expecting to see more from, but have not.

Edit: crossed with everything after Roa's #90

[Mnemosyne]

Okay, I think we all need to calm down and take some deep, cleansing breaths...

(Seriously, I can practically smell the testosterone.)

Am I the only one who's convinced that the current tiffs are just opinionated ordos going insane, and the real wolves are sitting back and practically rubbing their hands with glee?

Although Roa's CobNog theory is interesting... Still, I think that Nogrod as a good cobbler would try to hold out until after Day One to start wreaking havoc. I'd just like to lay off both of them for a while and look at other possibilities...

I am glad, however, that we no longer have the problem we had thirteen hours ago or so! At the very least Boro and Roa should be commended for their apt bit of pot-stirring.

Since we've been discussing wolf strategies so much (reasonability etc.), could we please try to look at things from other angles? What I'm thinking of is more of along the lines of IC versus OOC. With a good deal of us (that's where the strategy falls short--our beloved n00bs!) there's a huge paper trail for how they normally play as innocent villagers. I think that that's a much better indicator of wolf-hood than whether a person sounds reasonable or not.

Finally...

One simple request... could we try to get as many of our votes in as possible not in the last five minutes? Reason is our ally in Werewolf, and last-minute voting often precludes the possibility of its just exercise.

[Boromir88]

Speak of the scientist...looks like I jumped the gun prematurely on Mnemo.

[Roa_Aoife]

The fact is Roa stated a wrong number, whether it's an honest mistake or faked ignorance, I don't know. But I don't see anything wrong with Nog wondering that an honest mistake is less likely considering it wasn't something that I found terribly unclear nor uncommunicated by Legate.

I will say because of Nog's post about it, I buy the honesty in bringing it forward. If he's pulling one over kudos. Now he could be misleading, making a mountain out of a molehill, but it shows an honest willingness to lynch wolves.

The problem I have is not that he pointed it out, or even that he doesn't believe it was an honest mistake. My problem is that this is the ONLY point he has against me, and yet he claims that he is absolutely convinced I'm a wolf. The fact that he has to look for reasons to lynch me is evidence of the fact that HE HASN'T GOT ANY.

You may think that a cobbler Nogrod wouldn't go so far so fast, but I think he would- getting rid of one strong player, and forcing the village to lynch him on Day 2, means two days go by with out a dead wolf, and the village becomes significantly quieter.

[Pitchwife]

Back and reading up.

[Inziladun]

Once again, to address this:
This means that the actually interesting thing to talk about are the reactions to him. I see three possible wolfish responses. 1. Agreement, in an effort to lead the village astray side by side with an innocent Boro, 2. Plain disagreement, putting oneself on the majority's side anticipating the general disagreement or going along with it now that it's there, 3. Maintaining the discussion, so that the village wastes time talking about things that don't matter.

1: none
2: Nogrod, disagrees without a fuss, which actually doesn't look very suspicious; Pitch's comment might be suspicious.
3: Inziladun, starting with "Huh?" and continuing; Nerwen, first merely picking up what Roa and Inzil said, then going into attack now (which would look innocent if her tone wasn't so darn sinister); Morsul made himself comfortable on the fence.

When I said this:

Huh? :p

It was bedtime, and I really didn't get where Boro was going with that line of thought. But then, to say I was 'maintaining the discussion', when all I'd said was this:

I see [Boro's] point now regarding Gifted survival strategy, and yes, that sort of thing has led to their being lynched. But I don't see any certain way of divining which we're looking at: a nervous Gifted, or a brash wolf. Do you have any ideas?

That's a reach, Mac. :rolleyes:
And it really does look to me as if you were leaving the door open to raise suspicion on anyone who responded to Boro's comments.

I don't read much into Roa's misnumbering the wolves. It wouldn't get her very far as a wolf, in my opinion, and I think she's quite savvy enough to know that.

x/d with Roa and Pitch

[Pitchwife]

I'm for giving Boro a break. He's loud, he's controversial, which isn't unusual for him. He's also somewhat difficult to pin down on one specific stance in the things he said. You might call that dodgy, or you might call it looking at the problem from several angles. At least he's been stirring the pot, let's have some more of that.
Roa's number slip seems odd, but I think if she were a wolf trying to mislead us she would have chosen something which couldn't have been proved false that easily.
Nog voting her for that, while hinting at more mysterious reasons which he doesn't bother to explain, makes me somewhat uneasy. Same for his earlier chiding those who leave till there's more to go on, when that's exactly what he did himself earlier, wandering off to his test tubes. I don't like double standards.

[Roa_Aoife]

I don't read much into Roa's misnumbering the wolves. It wouldn't get her very far as a wolf, in my opinion, and I think she's quite savvy enough to know that.


As a matter of full disclosure, I did "mess up the numbers" last game when I was wolf. However, I wouldn't, as a wolf, employ the same strategy twice in a row. That would be obvious. And as a matter of fact, in that game, when I saw three other names on the wolf list, I had to double check the rules to make sure that I hadn't received a pm by mistake, because I was certain there were three wolves in the game. I was very surprised to find out there were four.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Roa and Nogrod could easily both be innocents. If so, they could be stoking the flames in order to gauge our reactions to the fight, or they could just as well be too stubborn for their own good.

Roa, Nogrod is not going after you solely because of that 3 wolf/4 wolf thing. He didn't like your reaction to Boromir's posts and he also is taking what you said personally (you called him unreasonable). He's got the idea in his head, and you're not exactly trying to appease him with gentle words.

Nogrod, if Roa is innocent then she is rightly baffled by your conviction of her guilt - as, I should think, most of us are. It was a very bold thing to say and now the village has to make a decision on it; if you had not mentioned conviction, we could easily have left this to simmer for a few days.

And now, I don't want to concentrate on these two any longer. There could be a villain or two among them but I don't want to make a rash decision in killing off one of the two most vocal players.

[Brinniel]

I almost forgot to vote! I'm a bit rushed since I have to run to class, but here we go..

The two people who stuck in my mind as suspicious are Nogrod and Nerwen. Nogrod's certainty over Roa's guilt seems a bit odd; why so confident on Day One? Whoever mentioned that his behaviour seems cobblerish, I agree. The problem is we don't even know whether we have a cobbler or not. As for Nerwen, she was very quick to jump on Roa's attack on Boro earlier; a very bandwaggonish move, which I find suspicious. So...

++Nerwen

Brinn, I knew they were in cahoots (I couldn't escape Nogrod's celebrations of that in RL), but I don't think that makes it improbable they could be fellows again (especially as Legate didn't play last time, but that goes already slightly meta).
Of course it's always possible...and it'd be almost funny if it did happen again. Anyway it seems quite typical for Nogrod and Roa to butt heads; though that does not necessarily point toward innocence or guilt.

[Pitchwife]

Talking about double standards, I also stumbled across this from Mac's first list:
Inzil says nothing that tries to look like something. Suspicious. Unfortunately, empirical knowledge tells me that I'm always led to believe he's guilty and then he's not.
The first sentence actually describes Mac's own behaviour in his two our three posts up to this point exactly. He's been more forthcoming in the meantime, but I'll have to look more closely at what he's actually saying.

[Roa_Aoife]

He didn't like your reaction to Boromir's posts

Nope, by his own words:


Btw. I'm not too interested in you suspecting or just disagreeing with Boro. That's quite off the mark.

[Mnemosyne]

All right, I've got an hour before I have to vote.

I am not voting for Nog, Roa, or Boro.

Okay, that narrows it down to... 16...

I'd rather vote for people who have made short, choppy posts than longer, more analytical ones. Unfortunately there wasn't so much to analyze earlier in the day. Still, the simple restatement of rules that happened with Loslote and Nienna kind of rankled. At least banterers aren't pretending to be helpful. Enough to vote on, though? Eehhhhhhh...

On the other hand, Morsul is irritatingly confusing and often confused. Which he is (for me, at least) elsewhere on the thread. Voting him would be easy, especially considering his vote for Mac.

Mac himself I can't place, but he's been making points which is better analysis fodder for later in the game.

Eomer hasn't been saying much, but what he's been saying has been valuable.

I'd like to hear more from Pitchwife and Inziladun to get a better feel for both of them. May vote for them... maybe... Both of them just feel a little off at the moment.

I'd also like to hear more from Brinn, but she's been acting normal as far as I can tell.

Our newer players I'll let slide for toDay out of courtesy, but if trom doesn't post something about the actual game itself before dl I'm going to be ticked.

Nerwen has been feeling solidly Nerwenish.

Need to hear more from Lommy... I think she's valid in pointing out that Nog and Roa might be in cahoots, but I don't think that that alone is justification for lynching one or both of them.

Greenie feels innocent; for some reason I think that if she were a wolf she would be posting a lot more than she has been.

Shasta... I need more from you, please.

wilwa hasn't posted so I can't say anything about her.

And I think that's it for now.

[A Little Green]

Huh. Well, at least we have had plenty of discussion! (Though I have to agree with Mnemo that deep, calming breaths might be in order..) I intended to write comments on posts written in my absence, but it seems to have become a post almost entirely on the Nog-Roa-issue. I apologise.
That was an intentional "mistake". It just has to be. As an ordo I know it. 'nuff said - meaning we're coming to the "uncomfortable zone" here and I'm not willing to argue anything as it's one of those things a player is not allowed to produce evidence for (which is actually just fair). Everyone can use their little grey cells though... and I suggest you all ordos do it and see it yourselves.I don't get this. At all. It's possible that Roa's slip was intentional. I can't see why it's certain. As for the underlined part - he's basically saying "everyone who doesn't agree with me is a baddie". I don't like that.
But really, if they were both innocent, why would they do this, with absolutely no evidence against each other and without recognising the baselessness of their accusations?My thoughts exactly.
But I don't see anything wrong with Nog wondering that an honest mistake is less likely considering it wasn't something that I found terribly unclear nor uncommunicated by Legate. I don't count saying "That was an intentional mistake" as wondering that a honest mistake is less likely, do you? Because I don't see anything wrong in wondering that a honest mistake is less likely, either. But that wasn't what Nog did.
That being said, Nog do you really think wolf-Roa would purposefully state the wrong number of wolves? What does she gain from acquiring what will surely be lots of uneeded attention?I thought the same - where's the point? She'll gain a very small confusion that is bound to be cleared almost immediately. She might have gained a status as confused ergo not wolf (faulty logic, by the way), but somehow that doesn't sound like Roa to me. At all.
You may think that a cobbler Nogrod wouldn't go so far so fast, but I think he would- getting rid of one strong player, and forcing the village to lynch him on Day 2, means two days go by with out a dead wolf, and the village becomes significantly quieter.The problem about the cobbler-Nogrod theory is that while I believe a cobbler-Nogrod would go far and fast if need be, it doesn't suit him at all to intentionally rid the village of a loud and active player on Day 1, probably resulting in his own death on Day 2. He'd love having a bit more fun with his cobbler role, and also calculatingly targeting vocal players for gain doesn't sit right with his strong opinions on sportive ww-playing.

Argh. Roa and Nogrod, you can congratulate yourselves on giving me a headache. Earlier toDay I congratulated myself on not suspecting Nogrod for a change. And what does he do? Start writing some completely insane stuff, and I can't see why he would say such things as a wolf or a cobbler or an innocent. And I don't understand Roa, either.

I'll write a list soon in order not to concentrate too much on Nogrod's crazy behaviour.


EDIT: x-ed with Roa, Eomer, Brinn, Pitch, another Roa and Mnemo. I like seeing people around. It's nice.

[Pitchwife]

Looking at some of our quieter ones.
I'll give credit to Nienna (and to a lesser degree Lottie , as she mostly agreed with Ni)for their early effort to get the game started in earnest. It's not proof of innocence, of course; I could imagine a wolf wanting to appear eager and helpful so as to look like s/he cares about our best interests. On the other hand, it's no proof against them.

[Mnemosyne]

Out for lunch. Back in half an hour to make some decisions and vote.

[Macalaure]

Inzil - defense convincing; off hook for now; needs to say more
Nogrod - very strange; cobbler theory possible; Greenie's point valid, though
Nerwen - maybe not sinister, but certainly forceful; all taken into consideration, not very suspicious now
Morsul - seemed strange at first; vote post, while accompanied with disapproved vote, looks good
Pitch - too quick with declaration of innocence; not sure anymore

Seem innocent:
Boro, Roa, Mnemo

No reason to suspect, but under radar:
Lommy, Brinn, Nienna, Greenie
(must investigate more)

Reasonable in limited posts:
Eomer, Shasta

???:
Sally, Lottie, Bes, trom
(haven't played with them (except Sally), so I wouldn't want to vote them right away)

Not here (or did I overlook her?):
Wilwa

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Fair enough, Roa, but my reading of Nogrod's posts #80 and #86 clearly concludes that he did not think much of your argument against Boro. He might deny this in #91 but it all adds up to why he's so strongly against you.

[Roa_Aoife]

The problem about the cobbler-Nogrod theory is that while I believe a cobbler-Nogrod would go far and fast if need be, it doesn't suit him at all to intentionally rid the village of a loud and active player on Day 1, probably resulting in his own death on Day 2. He'd love having a bit more fun with his cobbler role, and also calculatingly targeting vocal players for gain doesn't sit right with his strong opinions on sportive ww-playing.


For one, Nogrod doesn't kill loud players when he's a wolf because he sportingly likes to get them lynched. And if he can lynch them early, well, he's done quite a feat. For two, he would totally use such a thing as an excuse to get revenge on me for that first game he referenced earlier. And it looks like he's having fun to me. I mean, I'd be laughing my butt off right now if I were in his position.

[Roa_Aoife]

Fair enough, Roa, but my reading of Nogrod's posts #80 and #86 clearly concludes that he did not think much of your argument against Boro. He might deny this in #91 but it all adds up to why he's so strongly against you.

Okay, then why would he back off it instead of using it to back up his suspicions? Why rely on the poor reasoning of a slip when he could be using my disagreement with Boromir against me? There's no reason for him not to, so why?

[Macalaure]

Hmm... I've been tuning out most of that Nog-Roa-Boro story, but now that I look at it, reading Nog's #80 and #91 right after each other, Nog is either confused, or twisting his own points.

He makes theories about Roa and Nerwen based on their behavior towards Boro, then he says he's not too interested in the whole thing. :confused:

edit: crossed with Roa

editedit: ok, I'm just repeating what others already said... never mind

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Here and reading. Mnemo, I did mention I wouldn't be back until now.

X'd with Roa twice, Mac once.

[A Little Green]

LEANING INNOCENT:

Boromir88 - Seems innocentish to me.

Eomer - Makes very good points. I felt like applauding on reading his post about Nog and Roa. As has been said, making sense should not automatically point to innocence, but this far I have nothing at all that would point the other way.

Brinn - I like what I've seen this far.

Pitchwife - Likewise.

Macalaure - Not suspicious.

Lommy - Seems genuine and makes sense.

NEITHER OR BOTH:

Inziladun - No idea.

Loslote - No idea.

Nienna - No idea.

sally - Too little data to judge her by.

Nerwen - I'm very unconvinced either way.

Roa - Aaargh. Her points on Nogrod seem a bit flawed, then again Nog really is acting oddly and I can't really blame Roa for getting suspicious of him if she is innocent. Lommy's idea of the two of them being wolves together is interesting but I'm not sure if it isn't too easy - actually, a wolf-Lommy would love to create an idea like that - and then again, Lommy gives me very innocent vibes - (WW-headache, here I come.)

Bes - Too little data.

Shasta - Deep under my radar.

wilwa - Hasn't posted.

tromkehra - Too little data.

WARY OF:

Mnemosyne - A slight beep on my radar. I'll check her if I have time. There's something in her tone and her way of popping in and being kind of active but not rubbing anyone the wrong way that I don't like.

Morsul - His vote was very ill-reasoned in my opinion. Of course it is Day 1 and he had to vote early, but I didn't like it.

Nogrod - Enough said, I think.


EDIT: x-ed since my last

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

#19 - Inziladun makes a list of those who've posted and judges them. Weird thing is, nothing except in-character jesting has occurred. List seems pretty worthless. Strikes me as odd (just a little bit).

#53 - tromkehra: no substance at all! In-character jesting stopped many posts ago.

#57 - Macalaure thinks that wolf-Boro would not have kept arguing; I tend to disagree - I know Boro and he will never stop fighting! The best thing that wolf-Boro could do is stick to his guns. If he backed off that would be more suspicious (of course...he knows this too). I'm not getting anywhere nearer Boro's status but I disagree with Mac here.

#58 - Thinlomien. Not too useful here, I think. She makes a big list and judges everyone, but we're not really in a position to do that at that time. I'd be surprised if everyone read your thoughts on players who have barely been around, as it's not interesting and it's just a big block of text. Sorry! :p

#59- 'Morsul's criticism of Mac is interesting. He later voted for Mac.

[Pitchwife]

Morsul - looks like's got a time problem, yet making an effort to contribute, even without the leisure to think everything through coolly. Looks rather innocent at this point. His vote for Mac seems rather based on a hunch than a solid case, but with time being an issue, that's understandable.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Okay, then why would he back off it instead of using it to back up his suspicions? Why rely on the poor reasoning of a slip when he could be using my disagreement with Boromir against me? There's no reason for him not to, so why?

It's very odd indeed. :smokin:

[A Little Green]

#58 - Thinlomien. Not too useful here, I think. She makes a big list and judges everyone, but we're not really in a position to do that at that time. I'd be surprised if everyone read your thoughts on players who have barely been around, as it's not interesting and it's just a big block of text. Sorry! :pI disagree - I think it's always rather useful to read people's opinions on other players, even though there wouldn't be that much content. At least, writing such lists early on is hugely better than bantering, discussing whether Day 1s are useless or not, or not posting at all.


EDIT: x-ed with Pitchwife and Eomer

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Well, Greenie, receiving your applause then your disapproval in the space of one post is quite an achievement. :p

Nevertheless, I've gone nearly a whole day without arguing with Lommy; you can't expect this abominable state of affairs to continue.

[A Little Green]

Looking at my list, I'm thinking of voting Nog or Mnemo. I've promised to give the internet over to Lommy soon, so I probably won't have time for a proper analysis on Mnemo - which means that voting for her would be pretty much gut-feeling. As for Nog, he's confusing me waaaay too much and I can't see a wolf-Nog making the arguments he did - but they didn't seem innocent or cobblerish or anything else, either. Eurgh.

[Mnemosyne]

Back and kicking. Not really that much to add in the last half hour as all of the discussion has gone towards exacerbating what I'm sure is just an innocent-on-innocent problem.

Oh, and Shasta, duly noted.

[A Little Green]

Well, Greenie, receiving your applause then your disapproval in the space of one post is quite an achievement.Not disapproval. Disagreement. :p

[Pitchwife]

I'll lump Lommy, Greenie, Brinn and Eomer together (probably Shasta too), as all of them have shown some activity but not quite enough for me to form a definitive impression. Seen nothing that stands out against any of them. I'd say Eomer makes a little more good points than the rest (to be expected from a veteran of the first hour, as I think he is).
Nerwen - well, I don't know. She's been more controversial than I remember her from other Day 1's. Usually she's more calm, cool, collected, very balanced and sensible to the point of inscrutability, especially early in the game, but I think I've seen her get pointed and - well, not quite passionate, but something in that direction - when the situation seemed to call for it. So, maybe a bit untypical, but 'sinister' is taking it too far, I think.

[Mnemosyne]

Pitch and Inziladun are both giving me the closest thing to a wolvish vibe that I have right now. I'll probably vote for one of them... whichever one seems more likely to garner more votes at this point as I'm afraid they'll be in competition with the Dread Fracas.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Pitch and Inziladun are both giving me the closest thing to a wolvish vibe that I have right now. I'll probably vote for one of them... whichever one seems more likely to garner more votes at this point as I'm afraid they'll be in competition with the Dread Fracas.

That's the third time you've made reference to your opinion that Roa and Nogrod are both innocent.

:)

[Mnemosyne]

Okay, so the suspicionometers of everyone else on the thread were a lot less definitive than I thought...

And the vibes aren't giving me any more direction...

Which means it's coinflip time...

++Inziladun

[Nogrod]

Well then, going through in order of appearance.

My problem is that this is the ONLY point he has against me, and yet he claims that he is absolutely convinced I'm a wolf. The fact that he has to look for reasons to lynch me is evidence of the fact that HE HASN'T GOT ANY.No. It's "evidence" of the fact that I will not use such reasons - but can't put them aside either as a decent villager.

I don't read much into Roa's misnumbering the wolves. It wouldn't get her very far as a wolf, in my opinion, and I think she's quite savvy enough to know that."Get her very far"? What do you mean? It would be handy for a wolf against D1 randomness, twisting the scales just that little to her favour if people were not sure (and she would be suspected). I think she's savvy enough to know that.

Roa's number slip seems odd, but I think if she were a wolf trying to mislead us she would have chosen something which couldn't have been proved false that easily.You're missing the point Pitch and honestly I don't get what you mean... It's not whether she's "proven wrong" with the numbers, but the image she's trying to convey of her not knowing the number of wolves around eg. meaning she has not been discussing the others last Night & not knowing exactly who the other wolves are.

he's basically saying "everyone who doesn't agree with me is a baddie". I don't like that.No. I'm saying nothing like that. I'm saying an ordo can use her/his grey cells and see. Being blind is not the same thing as being a baddie... :p

I mean, I'd be laughing my butt off right now if I were in his position.Which position might you be hinting at? So have you realised why I'm after you and speak the truth here? :rolleyes:

If you mean the cobbler, sorry, you got it wrong. The cobbler is needed later in the game so suicidality is not their trademark early on. Heh Roa, no "seer-revealment" coming forwards. An innocent doesn't do that unless there is a real seer in danger from that innocent's POV.

reading Nog's #80 and #91 right after each other, Nog is either confused, or twisting his own points.I think a few of you have read my posts in an interesting way. What I said was that I didn't like the two (Roa and Nerwen) jumping on Boro's perfectly reasonable thoughts - like they were trying to make him look suspicious for that. And then I said:
Btw. I'm not too interested in you suspecting or just disagreeing with Boro.Meaning that it was the same to me whether they (well Roa at that point, so it's singular) say they just disagreed or suspected him as there clearly was an attempt to make him look bad (so whichever she claimed she was meaning bore no consequence to one's judgement on her - like anyone saying "I'm innocent" means nothing).


Blahh... I'm clearly lagging too far behind to ever catch you...

A short pause, then reading the rest that has come in and hopefully some actual discussion.

[A Little Green]

An hour till DL... I'm off very soon, Lommy wants the internet, and I'm debating with myself whether to vote now or hastily before DL. It would make more sense now, I guess, but then again, I don't like decision-making, but then again, the decision has to be made anyway. :rolleyes:

Gah. I'll vote now.

++ Mnemo

I'll save Nog for later. I want to hear him explain himself toMorrow.


EDIT: x-ed with Nog. Oh well.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Not going to vote due to lack of participation (one day stay of execution)

Loslote
Nienna
sally
Shasta
wilwa
tromkehra
Bes


Want to keep alive for now

Boromir88
Eomer of the Rohirrim (!)
Morsul
Nogrod
Roa
Green


Will probably vote for one of:

Inziladun
Mnemosyne
Pitchwife
Brinn
Macalaure
Thinlómien
Nerwen

[A Little Green]

No. I'm saying nothing like that. I'm saying an ordo can use her/his grey cells and see. Being blind is not the same thing as being a baddie...No, but by implying an ordo should see what you see is basically the same as implying that a person who doesn't see what you see is not an ordo. Get the point?

But now I'll go and let Lommy post. Decide wisely, folks. Good Night.

[Inziladun]

"Get her very far"? What do you mean? It would be handy for a wolf against D1 randomness, twisting the scales just that little to her favour if people were not sure (and she would be suspected). I think she's savvy enough to know that.

Would Roa really expect her innocence would appear more likely to us just because she seemed ignorant of the wolves' numbers? As she herself noted, that was done by her recently, and would be that much less believable in this case for that reason. I'm not saying she's innocent, mind, but that 'slip' alone is not very noteworthy to me.

x/d with Greenie and Eomer

[Bes]

Back. Reading everything up til now. Also, waiting on Legate to answer a PMed question about rules and such... More in a little while, hopefully. I swear I'm trying to participate in this game. :(

[Shastanis Althreduin]

That was an intentional "mistake". It just has to be.

So Roa tried to mislead us about her knowledge of the situation - and I can't see a reason what a gifted Roa would gain from that against the wolves at Nights as they would not start thinking she's someone they can afford to ignore from that. But a wolf-Roa might gain the edge in a possible tight voting if people thought she was not up to the situation...


Point against Nogrod. I don't see why something that could have just as easily been an honest mistake (and probably was - did anyone besides me see the very-last minute dropping and adding of people? First there were three wolves, then four, then three again, then four again, etc. ad.) has to be the be-all and end-all, Roa's guilty, case closed.

As an ordo I know it. 'nuff said - meaning we're coming to the "uncomfortable zone" here and I'm not willing to argue anything as it's one of those things a player is not allowed to produce evidence for (which is actually just fair). Everyone can use their little grey cells though... and I suggest you all ordos do it and see it yourselves.

Point against Nogrod. You can't know anything definitively as an ordo, anyway, and if you're (as I suspect you are) referring to the actual text of the ordo role PM, that's A) metagaming and rather unsavory in and of itself and B) highly inconclusive in any case.

Aye, Nogrod, soon as I saw Roa's counting-mistake I remarked: "intentional". Not sure what it means, though. I wouldn't be quick to lynch Roa because she brings a lot to the table in terms of discussion.


I wouldn't go so far as to say this is a point against Eomer, but the way he subtly backs up Nogrod by agreeing with him and not really contributing to the conversation other than that strikes me as mildly strange.

What? Huh? Really? First, you spend your posts using in character banter, and now you decide I'm guilty on a number slip? With all do respect, are you on something? This is the most ridiculous thing I've seen yet.


Point for Roa. This reaction seems innocent to me (in fact, it's probably how I'd react in the same situation. :p)

I must agree that questioning after Boro's "gifted talk" was a bit odd - as Boro talked sense. And it was first Roa and Nerwen who made the questions - and they are two players who should really understand what Boro was saying! As a rule of thumb (which can be broken of course in individual cases) gifted needs to look a bit suspicious so that the wolves think they can get her/him lynched and don't "waste" their Nightkill on that person.

Accidentally (?) it was also Nerwen who popped up to suggest defences for Roa after I voiced my trouble wth her. So a piece of bold team-work?


Point against Nogrod. What makes "sense" to you may not necessarily make "sense" to someone else. Also, an immediate declaration of Nerwen being Roa's teammate, as her first defender. Wild accusations on flimsy evidence? Not what I'm used to seeing from Nogrod...

What Boro said didn't make sense- he said that wolves are reasonable that gifteds aren't, implying that we ought to be lynching the reasonable ones. (By the way, you most certainly do NOT fall into that category.) Reasonableness is a terrible reason to lynch someone. Yes, the gifted need to be somewhat suspected to live, but it's not our job to worry about them.

Now who's trying to continue the debate? Oh, that would be you. By carrying on about the gifted an what they're doing, you are giving pointers to the wolves about how to spot gifted, and you're distracting the village from doing actual wolf-hunting. Not to mention the whole idea of what Boromir says discourages us from voting for people that we find suspicious for fear that they may be gifted, something that you seem keen to press on everyone while at the same time coming up with ludicrous suspicions that have no merit, further distracting the village.


Mmm... point for Roa. However, firstly, I don't recall Boro ever saying "wolves are reasonable, gifteds aren't" - I believe the point was that we shouldn't dismiss someone from suspicion just because they're reasonable. The second part of the above quote seems to me like "Me? Oh yeah, well you..." This reaction, while not the best and seeming odd (I see a bit of "Nogrod suspects Roa, so Roa suspects him right back" thing going on) has the same tone as her previous post, that of indignant ordo.

Am I on something? Well I am actually on bagging us a wolf. And am pretty serious about it.

...

I see there a reasonable remainder that we easily lynch gifteds as they need to look a bit suspicious in general (an especialy more inexperienced players may actually be a little nervous overreacting to things and thus look guilty, that can happen to a veteran as well) - and that wolves playing reasonable are easily slipping under our radars early on. To me that doesn't imply we should lynch the reasonable ones but to be careful / to remember there is this side as well.


Point for Nogrod. I believe this to be a more accurate representation of what Boro actually said/meant... that said, I still don't think a different point of view to be a sign of wolvery.

The only one doing that is you. I never suspected Boromir, I only disagreed with him. You're the one turning this into a huge deal and carrying on with it. Not to mention the whole number slip thing. That's not making a mountain out of a molehill?

A reasonable reminder of what, exactly, Nogrod? That we don't want to lynch gifteds? Well, duh, we all know that. What do you make of the second part of his statement? That wolves slip by on reasonableness? How do you take that?


I'm unsure what to think here. On the one hand, it's the same indignant Roa whom I feel to be innocent based on her reaction. On the other, it seems as if she disagrees with Boro about wolves being able to slip by on being reasonable (if I'm wrong, please correct me) and I can't figure out why.

Btw. I'm not too interested in you suspecting or just disagreeing with Boro. That's quite off the mark.

...

But to be honest. It actually is, at least in part, meta-reasoning and I said so earlier talking about an "uncomfortable zone". I'm convinced of her guilt and can't / shouldn't act otherwise. But I'm not going to state anything more on that side of the issue but will continue trying to find any other things there could be (in a few hours as I now have to get off for a while).


Point, point, point against Nogrod. Are you saying all that you have to convince you of Roa's guilt is the fact that she said "three" instead of "four"? Also, saying that you won't state anything more on the metagaming side of the issue is like saying "Roa is evil, but the rules prevent me from telling you why." If you legally can't say anything, you never should have brought it up - all it's been is a big distraction.

I am now convinced that the secret role is the cobbler, and Nogrod is it. He's clearly hinting at being the seer, which the seer Nogrod wouldn't do, because he knows better than to do something so risky. Further more, he can't be the seer, because he most certainly wouldn't attack me like this if he was. Make no mistake, this is a cobbler planning a false reveal.


Point against Roa. Much as I think she's innocent, this theory is quite a stretch. Firstly, there is no Seer, so telling us what the seer-Nogrod would or wouldn't do is pointless. Secondly, saying that he can't be the Seer because he wouldn't attack you if he was, while probably true from your point of view, is unprovable/has no meaning for the rest of us. Unless you're trying to say that the secret role is in fact a cobbler, Nogrod received it, and is planning to reveal himself as the secret role-Seer (which makes no sense because as soon as you died we'd go after him, thus rather a waste of a secret role), I don't see where you're coming from.

Roa and Nogrod could easily both be innocents. If so, they could be stoking the flames in order to gauge our reactions to the fight, or they could just as well be too stubborn for their own good.

Roa, Nogrod is not going after you solely because of that 3 wolf/4 wolf thing. He didn't like your reaction to Boromir's posts and he also is taking what you said personally (you called him unreasonable). He's got the idea in his head, and you're not exactly trying to appease him with gentle words.

Nogrod, if Roa is innocent then she is rightly baffled by your conviction of her guilt - as, I should think, most of us are. It was a very bold thing to say and now the village has to make a decision on it; if you had not mentioned conviction, we could easily have left this to simmer for a few days.

And now, I don't want to concentrate on these two any longer. There could be a villain or two among them but I don't want to make a rash decision in killing off one of the two most vocal players.


There are one or two things I find strange about this post, but I'm finding it very hard to articulate them... for now, calling it a "general area of bad feeling".



So right now, having typed this beast up before Nogrod's latest post (in which he clears up some ambiguities), I would: rather not vote for Nogrod, but will if I see no other option/someone I think to be "more innocent" (that's not the correct term but it's slipped my mind at the moment) is up for execution; not vote for Roa at this time, and; would be willing to vote for Eomer.

X'd with Bes.

[Inziladun]

An hour till DL... I'm off very soon, Lommy wants the internet, and I'm debating with myself whether to vote now or hastily before DL. It would make more sense now, I guess, but then again, I don't like decision-making, but then again, the decision has to be made anyway. :rolleyes:

Gah. I'll vote now.

++ Mnemo

I think Greenie may be gone now, but why Mnemo?
I don't care much for the latter's vote for me due to a coin toss, but some reasoning here would be helpful.

[Macalaure]

Too many people look innocent to me right now. I don't want to vote Boro, Eomer, Lottie, Roa, Bes, Shasta, Greenie, and trom, and I would like to avoid voting Mnemo, Morsul, Brinn, Pitch, Nienna, and Nerwen.

Sally and Wilwa aren't newbies to me, but apart from those, they are the two who haven't provided much. Don't like voting them for that, of course, but I would rather do that than vote any of the above.

Since they're the only ones left, I'd tentatively consider Inzil (need to read more, so far mostly either agreed with others or defended himself), Nogrod (would deserve a long case, which I can't provide at the moment), Lommy (don't know what to do with her). Not happy with options.

edit: crossed with quite a few.

[Nogrod]

by implying an ordo should see what you see is basically the same as implying that a person who doesn't see what you see is not an ordo. Get the point?No I do not get it.

Basic logic: from "if A then B"... you can't deduce "if notB then notA".

Well, it seems Shasta has come back with dedication... *goes to read*

[Nerwen]

Back. Reading.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

No I do not get it.

Basic logic: from "if A then B"... you can't deduce "if notB then notA".

Well, it seems Shasta has come back with dedication... *goes to read*

Let me help.

"Any ordo would be able to see what I see. You don't see what I see? Hmm... that must make you... not an ordo."

How about now? :)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Clarification - it wasn't the deduction, it was the inference.

Hope that helps. I did some translation work a while back - Nerwen can vouch. :smokin:

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Mac: 1 (Morsul)

Nogrod: 1 (Roa)

Nerwen: 1 (Brinn)

Inziladun: 1 (Mnemo)

Mnemo: 1 (Green)


Finely balanced. :cool:

[Pitchwife]

Zil - a quiet presence, hanging back and posting only when he's got something to say, which makes him look cautious and on his guard. Suspecting him is almost as easy and popular as Hakon-bashing. Sometimes he deserves it, sometimes not, hard to tell which. So far, however, I've seen nothing that cries wolf, and I don't quite see where Mnemo's vote comes from.
Mac has been playing in a somewhat similar style so far, which makes it hard to pin him down. But I find it noteworthy that he rescinded his early 'declaration of innocence' for me (for which, truth to be told, there was hardly any base at the time but maybe a vague instinct) very shortly after I pointed out his use of double standards.

Now for the Nog-Roa controversy. We've seen it all before, but this time, Nog looks odder of the two. Secret cobbler is a definitive possibility, but no more than that. Let's keep them both for another Day and see whether Nog comes up with something more substantial.

EDIT: x-ed with everyone since Mnemo's #130.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

++MNEMOSYNE

There are a number of shady characters around here, and I don't want to add a new person to the voting list.

Mnemo has been very visible without getting too involved. It seems she's trying to be, what was that word, agreeable? Repeating your opinion that both Nogrod and Roa are probably innocent also makes me a bit uneasy. Look, everyone round here knows that one of them will end up dying sooner or later - and when that hapens you'll be there to say "I told you so!"

It's not a lot but then wolves are rarely obvious on Day One, so I'm gambling. No hard feelings? ;)

[Nogrod]

"Any ordo would be able to see what I see. You don't see what I see? Hmm... that must make you... not an ordo."

How about now?Nope... Sorry. Even if you call it just an inference.

I never said that any ordo automatically sees it, but anyone could.

'nuff said.

[Inziladun]

Mac has been playing in a somewhat similar style so far, which makes it hard to pin him down. But I find it noteworthy that he rescinded his early 'declaration of innocence' for me (for which, truth to be told, there was hardly any base at the time but maybe a vague instinct) very shortly after I pointed out his use of double standards.

Oddly enough, after apparently deciding not to go for me here:


Inzil - defense convincing; off hook for now; needs to say more

Mac then flip flops:

Since they're the only ones left, I'd tentatively consider Inzil (need to read more, so far mostly either agreed with others or defended himself), Nogrod (would deserve a long case, which I can't provide at the moment), Lommy (don't know what to do with her). Not happy with options.

And I still think he was entirely too quick to use the Boro controvery-which-shouldn't-have-been as a reason to cast suspicions.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Ah Shasta, ever eager to play Eomer to my Lommy.

Wait, what? :p

[Pitchwife]

Just noticed - I was under the impression that Nog had voted Roa already, but according to Eomer's tally he hasn't, and I can't actually find a vote among his posts (would be quite uncharacteristic for him to vote early, anyway). Didn't want to create a false impression.
Has anybody considered Nog has a secret role which is not a cobbler?

[Thinlómien]

I'm here and I have read everything and I honestly just don't have anything to say. I seem to be a bit unable to get a grip on the game, undoubtedly partly because I haven't been dedicating it as much time as I could have, due to seeing friends etc.

While I agree that I would totally advocate the Roa-Nogrod-in-cahoots theory as a wolf if they were innocent, I still advocate it also as an innocent with no knowledge on their roles. Because normally if they were like that there would be at least one "oh don't we ever learn, we always do this" comment in the middle of that, but no. This time it seems staged because it's so dramatic. Neither party is questioning their reasoning at all, which is not a sign of innocence.

I'm not sure if I'll vote either of them, though, because funnily enough, that would seem quite drastic to me, especially as if ignoring the details, their petty fight seems so normal and thus not very suspicious at all. Argh. I guess I could vote Mnemo or Nienna, but they haven't really done much to merit my suspicion (but then again it's Day1). Or then I could vote Eomer because he would undoubtedly like that. :p


edit: xed with the stuff after the vote count

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Ah Shasta, ever eager to play Eomer to my Lommy.

Wait, what? :p

What, no interest in a spinoff of "The Shasta/Eomer Show"? :p

X'd with Lommy.

[satansaloser2005]

Here for a bit and will read through as quickly as I can. *dashes off* Vote count?

[Nienna]

Ok so I'm super sorry I haven't been around till now. I was working. I'll be on till deadline though I don't know how much help I can be. Lommy is feeling the worst to me so far. Her posts haven't been helpful but I know she is coming on the computer so I'll giver her a slight chance. I don't think that Mnemo is looking all that suspicious. Nog and Roa are probably both innocents. I don't know what to do with Mac or Boro but I probably won't be voting for either of them. I also won't be voting Morsul.

Edit: Crossed with a host

[Macalaure]

Morsul -> Mac
Roa -> Nogrod
Brinn -> Nerwen
Mnemo -> Inzil
Green -> Mnemo
Eomer -> Mnemo(2)

But I find it noteworthy that he rescinded his early 'declaration of innocence' for me (for which, truth to be told, there was hardly any base at the time but maybe a vague instinct) very shortly after I pointed out his use of double standards.

That reminds me that I have to explain why there were no double standards. Inzil's list had nothing in it (Eomer noted the same somewhere). Mine had little more than nothing, but I admitted its little use.
My (non-)suspicion of you had nothing to do with it. You felt innocent at first, then less, now more again.


Inzil, is your only points against me that I jump to conclusions and back too quickly? What else are you supposed to do on Day1? If you voice your opinions with some overblown certainty, at least you'll be sure to get a response that's valuable. ;)

[Bes]

Eugh. You guys post so very, very quickly. Admittedly there's close to 20 people in the game, so that's to be expected. Anyway!

I don't feel at all confident in my previous statement about Boro at this point; I was sleepy, it was 1AM, and even then it just me going with my gut... and later being sort of irritated at what I perceived as an inflammatory response.

I'm hesitant to peg either Roa or Nogrod, though they both feel suspicious to me, Nogrod more than Roa. He's speaking in a very firm and confident way about an argument that has about an ounce of evidence which is based on something that could just as easily be a coincidence. I don't want to say he's wrong, but I won't vote Roa today based on that either. He'll have to sell it to me more tomorrow.

I'll admit that I haven't considered everything as carefully as I could, but the arguments that make the most sense to me, right now, are Inzil's arguments against Mac. He's the only one so far that I can look back all the way and say that I feel iffy about, aside from the previously mentioned Roa and Nogrod.

++Macalaure

[Thinlómien]

Darn, Eomer's vote for Mnemo makes me hesitant to vote her, because that would turn the Mnemo-votes to a bandwagon and I'm not sure if she deserves that.

Also, I don't get why Nogrod seems so desperate. Usually he keeps calm even if the whole village suspects him and now it's only a minority.

Nienna comes back and suspects me. Wonderful. Because that makes me suspect her in return. I feel sort of "justified" in this suspicion though, because others have suspected me slightly too and I don't suspect them, so I'm not suspecting everybody in retaliation ergo my suspicion of Nienna can't be totally retaliatory which'd mean there's something that seems off to me in her behaviour even if I can't analyse it... Makes sense? :confused::p


edit: xed with a host

[Nogrod]

I will probably stick with Roa whatever you think... unless there is something I find totally wrong in the voting.

Of others I'd say that Nerwen's fast "backpedalling" (heh, I learned a new word from this) after being suspected, even if quite easily, looks a bit suspicious - not to say what some others have said that she's a bit tense.

I don't find Mnemo that suspicious. Instead she was one of the only reasonable ones at least in the earlier part of the Day - sadly I don't have such a clear view on her from the latter part of the Day.

I agree that Inzil's first list of people looked more of something that was intended to look good rather than being genuinely helpful - and he has been careful indeed. Like Pitchie...

I always suspect Mac - and I actually do now as well. But I would be very hesitant to call anything on that, at least without any further reasons.

I feel, actually think I have a reason to believe, that Boro is innocent.

With Shasta I'm wavering; could go both ways.

[Macalaure]

Last minute bandwaggon against me? At least Inzil's vote should be guaranteed...

Joy. :rolleyes:

[Thinlómien]

Ewwwwwwww.... the time!

[Macalaure]

To everyone who's not eager to lynch me, I'd prefer Inzil over Mnemo a lot.

[Pitchwife]

Voting time approaches. Have I already said I hate Day 1 votes?
Leaving our obvious loudmouths aside, I've got to say Mac makes me most uneasy at the moment. Double standards, general slipperyness, plus the flip-flopping Zil pointed out. It's more a vibe-matter than reasoning, but that's what I have to go on right now.
++Macalaure

[Thinlómien]

A vote for Nienna seems throwaway now... so the question is, Nogrod or Mnemo...

[Thinlómien]

Although seeing Mac's latest post I wouldn't necessarily say it's innocent... which is a pity because I did think him innocent more or less all Day... hmm...

[Nienna]

I would also prefer Zil over Mnemo or Mac.

[Inziladun]

Inzil, is your only points against me that I jump to conclusions and back too quickly? What else are you supposed to do on Day1? If you voice your opinions with some overblown certainty, at least you'll be sure to get a response that's valuable. ;)

'Overblown certainty'? That was Nog, not you. :p
You gave no reasons for your sudden shift in how I looked to you, and like I said, that wasn't the only point I saw against you.

I hate that we always seem to do this, Mac. :rolleyes:

[Macalaure]

Thank you, Nienna.

[Thinlómien]

But Inzil doesn't seem to bad, Mac.

++Mnemo


edit: xed with everybody, as with the few last posts but I was too lazy to mark it

[satansaloser2005]

For what it's worth, I don't think a wolf out of water (aka Mnemo....yeah, I know, I made a lame Disney pun) would do a coin flip or even suggest it, as she would know it could get her some votes.

I'm actually kind of suspicious of Shasta right now; call it a hunch. Roa seems too strange to me (and as usual, the first Day is rubbish and I'm only able to sparknotes how I think) and while Nog looks weird I trust him so far. Boro's clearly the devil. ;)

And Mac? Bwah? I'll have to look at him toMorrow. For now though, I'll go with:

++Roa


We don't have to highlight, do we? *hates being rushed* I'll do all I can toNight to catch up and make sure we're in a better spot toMorrow.

[Nienna]

But Inzil doesn't seem to bad, Mac.

++Mnemo

neither does Mnemo...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I don't see anything on either Mnemo or Mac and I'd rather neither went.

++Inziladun

Not where I expected my vote to have to go, at all, but I don't see any more support for Nogrod, and none at all for Eomer.

[Macalaure]

Nonsense, Inzil. I had valid reasons, though not very good ones, to suspect you. Then you defended yourself and it looked good, but still your lack of original points made it impossible to think you're innocent with some certainty. Lacking anybody better, you were a possible vote for me. Now with my life on the block, I choose you over Mnemo. That's all.

[Thinlómien]

neither does Mnemo...*shurg* Maybe, but worse than Inzil or Mac...

I have the feeling this'll be chaotic.

edit: xed with people again

[Nienna]

++Zil

[Macalaure]

Me 3, Mnemo 3, Inzil 3?

[Nogrod]

Let's try then...

++ Roa

[Macalaure]

++Inziladun

I don't like to go there every game either... :(

[satansaloser2005]

Ties=Evil. :mad:

[satansaloser2005]

Let's try then...

++ Roa

Is that legal?


ETA: Never mind. It was in quotes before in his post, but it's fixed now.

[Inziladun]

All right, Mac. I really didn't want to vote for you, since I always suspect you. But to ensure my survival:

++ Mac

[Nerwen]

Arrghh! I'm sorry, I'm not happy with voting any of the leads, but

++Mac

for dodgy reasoning.

EDIT:X'd with a host.

[satansaloser2005]

*pulls out hair* See what I come back to?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Deadline. The Day is over.

Narration is coming up soon here also along with the Day's outcome. I will count and check the votes. In case you are around here and reading this and are not in desperate need to leave, I suggest that you patiently wait like five to ten minutes at most for the narration to be posted. And not do anything else. Yet.

[Macalaure]

First game in I don't know how long and I get lynched on Day1.... :rolleyes:

[Thinlómien]

4-4 tie? *confusion and mess*

edit: sorry for the lateness, my computer clock is like 30 seconds late or something... :o

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Our discussion on that day has been far from a discussion of professional investigators. Despite the efforts of all of us to focus on our most immediate concern, our discussion kept changing forms. At first it often slipped into an academic debate. It could be seen that we were scientists - stranded and in a dire situation, but scientists nevertheless. Later however, the process thrust us into a heated dispute.

In the end the majority seemed convinced that it was our meteorologist who was responsible, but our decision was far from unambiguous. There was one unused compartment on the ship where we locked him, despite his protests. It was an act of fear which even further undermined our morale. However, at least some of us seemed hopeful enough, being convinced that we have caught the culprit. The more realistic were reminding us that there was nothing to celebrate as our communication with the outer world was still severed and our ship as much trapped as before the incident. Neither of those two groups, though, could have foreseen the full scale of horror that was to break out in this prison of ice.

By 10 AM of the following day we have split into two groups again, some staying on the ship and trying to finish what our poor lead enginer had started, some taking a trip on feet further on, towards the sole landmark nearby: the rumoured unknown island or ice floe which some have spotted the day before. As the sky lightened, we could see its shape rising against the southern sky. It was hardly an hour's walk from our place, and both of our polar biology experts encouraged us to go there. There was but a slight hope of being able to see another mark of civilation from up there, but no doubt a psychological effect also played its part. Our ship was too small for everyone to take part in the repairs, not to mention that many of us had no real experience in such matters whatsoever. Such ones would appreciate the chance to move and do something which seemed at least partially sensible. We didn't know how long we will be forced yet to stay on the ship, yet we feared that it might be too long.

LIVING MEMBERS OF THE EXPEDITION:

Inziladun - meteorologist
Mnemosyne - field medic
Boromir88 - senior assistant to a professor of glaciology
Eomer of the Rohirrim - sea pilot
Loslote - rich funder's spoiled daughter
Morsul - federal grants lawyer
Brinn - polar bear biologist
Pitchwife - marine biologist
Nienna - navigator
Nogrod - old palaeoecologist with is own theory of climate change
Macalaure - palaeomathematician
sally - the original initiator of the expedition
Thinlómien - whale expert
Nerwen - mechanic
Roa - survival guide
Bes - room/store manager
Shasta - sled-dog handler
wilwa - crewmember
Greenie - senior assitant to important scientists in the company
tromkehra - cook/bartender

LYNCHES:

would-be Day 1 lynchee: Inziladun

The team made the decision not to cause death on the first Day. Nobody is lynched toDay. There will also be no Night kill among the players. See this post on the admin thread (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=617470&postcount=80)for more details.

Night 2 begins. Werewolves, you may start PMing each other, but no Night kill is going to take place this time. Ranger and Hunter may start PMing too. No posting on this thread again until the next Day.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

The landmark was indeed not very far from the place where our trapped ship was now stationed. Soon we discovered that it was indeed an island, a piece of barren rock sticking out of the masses of ice, only barely covered with snow. It was the young glaciologist who remarked that in this latitude it is common for land masses to be covered with snow all year, yet recently, periods have been observed when even in such places there came occassional thaws. We did not realise yet back then what importance this fact will have for us in the very following days. But finally there was something to occupy our scientific minds with, finally after what seemed like ages a normal discussion arose. Where were we? We pitied the loss of our equipment, as we could not have been sure which particular island we are on. There were not many, not even small islands in these parts, yet no one of us has been to these particular parts of the Arctic Ocean, and we spent a lot of time arguing over the maps. At last, we decided to return to the ship.

As much as our minds have been distracted from the horrors which have occured aboard before, we could not have escaped them once we have returned. After barely a few hours of peaceful sleep, furious barking and growling could be heard from the compartments where our huskys have been stationed. Awakened by the hideous sound we all rushed to the place. The door of the first of the two rooms containing our dogs was ajar and, by the time the first of us have arrived, the sounds inside have stopped. To our horror, even from the outside we could see red stains on the floor. At last our survival guide along with the original sled-dog handler picked the courage to step in. When they emerged, they looked pale and sick; our survival guide was breathing deeply and the other man just shook his head and said: "Somebody has butchered them all."

We were all shaken. So was this another attempt to cripple our efforts to get out of here? "The meteorologist!" somebody cried, and we rushed to the compartment only to find it safely locked from the outside just as we have left it. There was no way the man would have done it, unless somebody opened the door for him and then locked him in again - yet all of us have been at the place of slaughter together. A culprit could have managed to slip among us unnoticed, but he would not have had the time to walk all the way to the other side of the ship, lock the meteorologist inside and come back again without being noticed. Pressurized by the part of our company which was against incriminating him in the first place, we released our meteorologist. As far as the butchering of our sled-dogs was concerned, he must have been innocent - unless he had an accomplice, a thought already some started to voice.

But who would do something like that? And why? What would anybody get from leaving us in this prison of ice? We found it far more reasonable to think that we are looking at the work of a dangerous madman - yet the truth, as we were to learn soon, was far more hideous.

LIVING MEMBERS OF THE EXPEDITION:

Inziladun - meteorologist
Mnemosyne - field medic
Boromir88 - senior assistant to a professor of glaciology
Eomer of the Rohirrim - sea pilot
Loslote - rich funder's spoiled daughter
Morsul - federal grants lawyer
Brinn - polar bear biologist
Pitchwife - marine biologist
Nienna - navigator
Nogrod - old palaeoecologist with is own theory of climate change
Macalaure - palaeomathematician
sally - the original initiator of the expedition
Thinlómien - whale expert
Nerwen - mechanic
Roa - survival guide - innocent (information added 1:45h after DL - see the admin thread (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=617570&postcount=90))
Bes - room/store manager
Shasta - sled-dog handler
wilwa - crewmember
Greenie - senior assitant to important scientists in the company
tromkehra - cook/bartender

LYNCHES:

would-be Day 1 lynchee: Inziladun

Day 2 begins. Werewolves, Hunter and Ranger, stop PMing. Everyone, you may start posting here and voting for whom to lynch toDay.

[Boromir88]

So what happened yesterday...on Mondays and Wednesdays I return from my research expeditions at 3:30 (EST) and for some reason I calculated 5 to be the DL. When Morsul said it was 4 for him, I was a little confused, because he's in EST too. But for whatever reason, when I returned from the expedition I had it in my mind it was 5 pm, and I take my jolly good time writing a post, believing I had over an hour to vote. By the time I post it, it's 17 minutes past the DL.

I didn't cast my vote yet, still thinking I had a while, but I was leaning towards Inzil and this is the post that I deleted from yesterday...

-------

I don't feel at all confident in my previous statement about Boro at this point; I was sleepy, it was 1AM, and even then it just me going with my gut... and later being sort of irritated at what I perceived as an inflammatory response.~Bes
My apologies, but try to get used to it. I'm very theatrical, over-the-top, and sometimes sarcastic, which of course can be seen as inflammatory. Interesting backpedalling yourself though...

Last minute bandwaggon against me? At least Inzil's vote should be guaranteed...

Joy.~Mac
For what it's worth I have no intention of voting for you. For once you don't have to feel like I'm a vote for you "waiting to happen." :p

It's not because you've defended me, but you were dead on about wolf-Boro backing away from controversial statements, and not desiring to slam down to try and prove I'm right. Of course Eomer and Morsul are also right to point out my unpredictability and the thrill of the fight, as a wolf, I wouldn't say I'm more cautious, but I definitely choose my battles more carefully.

I love the feeling of having no responsibility besides making a vote. I can just say whatever I want and not care what happens to me, nor feel like if I die early that I'm letting anyone down. :D

Anyway, the bigger reason is I think Inzil's case is not only weak, but faulty.

And I still think he was entirely too quick to use the Boro controvery-which-shouldn't-have-been as a reason to cast suspicions.~Inzil

I don't get it, and to be honest I was questioning Mac's motives when he first made the post of people reacting to my controversy. However, that wariness was because I questioned his motives, it had nothing to do with the "speed" that he did it. Once Mac provided his reasons for doing it, the wariness went away.

Nerwen had a point that at least one wolf would probably ignore the controversy altogether, but that doesn't disprove the fact that Mac is correct, several people jumped on it, and then several more either agreed with me, or then back-pedalled there is likely wolf involvement. Greenie said the debate itself over who is right, or if I'm using terrible logic, is pointless, but it did provide lots of reading and involvement from nearly everyone.

I was wary of Mac at first, but it had nothing to do with the speed with which he did it. To suspect him for jumping in too fast is weak and faulty.

--------

That was it, so now debate this...You have 24 hours - the time that this post appears.

I've also finished going through 11 people's posts from yesterday, of course the bottom half of the posters, because reading through all you jabber-mouth scientists is just tedious. Plus, it took me much longer than I thought to go through wilwa's posts. :p I will post my thoughts on all of 'em in a bit and try to get the rest of you done by the end of the day. No guarantees there.

Can we assume that based on people believing there would be an actual lynch that neither Inzil nor Mac are gifted?

[Nogrod]

Okay. I think it’s my time to come into the open then.

For those of you who don’t know it, let it be said we have a colourful past in werewolfing, Roa and I. It was Roa’s second and my first game when we first met and I was the seer who dreamt of her being a wolf on the first Night and after a full Day of single-minded pursuit by me - trying to find any possible slip and ranting on it (that newbie me!) we finally lynched her (and I was killed the next Night). After that we have played the dog and cat thing almost every game – even if to speak the truth we have been able to collaborate a few times as well.

But that’s a kind if special thing for me at least – even if I’m losing it in numbers (just remembered the first Dueling Wizards…).

But to the issue then.

I thought of Roa’s “mistake” on the number of wolves as a bluff to begin with as I couldn’t believe she would honestly miss it – whatever she much later said about her last game, or the quite clumsy defence of saying “that would be too obvious”!!! One can also say one is innocent... :)

But then I saw Roa jumping on Boro (and yes dear Roa, I saw you jumping, whatever you say about just disagreeing and not suspecting him – therefore I said it was not of the essence what you said you were doing.). I thought she was really trying to make Boro look bad on purpose whilst I found Boro’s remarks totally reasonable (heh, later she said it would be a trophy for me as a wolf to get an innocent loudmouth aka. her to lynch... but aren't we too similar in here; you tried the same with Boro?).

And lay and behold, it seemed to work: Nerwen followed suite in the questioning making Boro the primary object of discussions and later a few people, especially Bes, took your lead and started openly talking about Boro being suspicious.

Perfect wolvery to my eyes. But how to get more evidence for or against from the most reasonable player there is? So how to get Roa to react in a way that would reveal her alignment? I knew it wouldn’t be easy and no normal suspicion would do (I’ve learned that much during the years).


Suddenly I got the idea I thought was really great. So why not press her like “for the old times sake” and pose as someone who actually knew she was a wolf (like I was back then in our first meeting) and look how she would react to a possible “flashback from the past”? So if she was a wolf indeed, she would have to relive that first game and that might just bring her off her guard…


And before going into Roa's posts after my suspicions of her, let me just point to this as I must still note that Roa’s reaction to Boro’s post is overwhelmingly overdone and – I’d like to say - consciously misinterpreted. Just compare these.
And how many times have we lynched gifteds because they need to look just as suspicious as wolves, but not too suspicious (making them look to us even more suspicious than the suspicious wolves) so the wolves don't kill them?

On the flip side, how many times do the reasonable, agreeable ones (myself often included in this, I admit) get free passes early, for being just that...reasonable and agreeable?
Seriously, if we start lynching people because they make sense, I'm quitting. Of course wolves can make sense. Of course innocents could lack sense. But saying we should lynch someone because they make sense is utterly ridiculous, and exactly what the wolves would want. They want the strong rational players that aren't drawing suspicion out of the way, because an innocent who doesn't draw suspicion is one less person to get lynched in place of a wolf. What you're suggesting basically gives the wolves a lot more places to hide, and little to fear in watching their step. It is because the wolves have to pretend that we can catch them. Targeting the reasonable means that the wolves don't have to be so careful. Your whole line of reasoning is flawed, and more than that, helps the wolves.

"Roalysis" to come in a moment...

[Macalaure]

So it's basically another Day1 again? I think we should annoy Roa and start in-character posting all over again! :p

Ok, of course it's not a perfect Day1. While we still have zero knowledge, we already have amassed plenty of antagonism and enmity yesterDay to make for an entertaining Day. ;)


Even though we have no knowledge of roles, the votes deserve analysing. It's of debatable use, but we don't have any better.

Morsul -> Mac (well-reasoned vote, considering how early it was)
Roa -> Nogrod (a bit knee-jerk, if you ask me. not as well-considered as I would expect it from Roa)
Brinn -> Nerwen (she mentions Nerwen's jumping on Roa's attack on Boro, something I found suspicious, too, so I'm not completely objective here)
Mnemo -> Inzil (she mentioned him and Pitch before her vote, but her reasoning is vague at best)
Green -> Mnemo (has been after her consistently, reasons seem valid)
Eomer -> Mnemo(2) (nothing mentionworthy about this vote. seems alright)
Bes -> Mac(2) (vote out of nowhere. cites Inzil's points against me as reason. not thrilled, especially since Inzil's points were already drawing on Pitch's points)
Pitch -> Mac(3) (he suspected me before, but the vote post bugs me - first he pretty much throws every accusation he can think of at me, and then he adds that it's more of a vibe thing. makes little sense in this combination and looks more like an attempt to fuel a bandwaggon)
Lommy -> Mnemo(3) (has been quite consistent, but not much in terms of reasoning)
Sally -> Roa (a throwaway. Sally hasn't provided much to analyse)
Shasta -> Inzil(2) (bites on the alternative option I tried to push. I'd like to know why he was so sure about the innocence of Mnemo and me)
Nienna -> Inzil(3) (ditto)
Nogrod -> Roa(2) (motivated by Sally's vote, I suppose. the vote alone is not suspicious)
Mac -> Inzil(4) (I was pretty afraid to cross with Inzil's expectable vote for me, I can tell you)
Inzil -> Mac(4) (self-preservation. was suspicious of me, but expressed regret that we always seem to clash. I share that regret... :( )
Nerwen -> Mac(5) (didn't count, but that doesn't matter. she suspected me before and does this kind of sniping frequently, but there are no posts in between "back, reading" (40 mins before deadline) and her vote. dissatisfying)

did not vote: Boro, Wilwa, trom, Lottie

[Nogrod]

Those of you who have not been around for long may find the concept of "Devil's advocate reading" on someone a strange concept. So let me explain.

"A Devil's advocate reading" of someone means that one reads another from the POV s/he is a wolf and analyses everything in that vein trying to see if that would make a believable pattern / whole. The DAR can be a mighty weapon in catching wolves but it may also backfire badly when one let's her/his imagination to run free looking only at the possible guilt.

I'm not exactly true to DAR here as I also try to see where she might be believably innocent at times, but I must admit there is a lot of it in what follows. And now as I've come clear I'd like to hear your comments Roa. After all any outstanding ordo getting killed is a great loss to us.


This is her first reaction to my suspicion:
What? Huh? Really? First, you spend your posts using in character banter, and now you decide I'm guilty on a number slip? With all do respect, are you on something? This is the most ridiculous thing I've seen yet.

That might go either way… But she continues in the same vein in her next one.

What Boro said didn't make sense- he said that wolves are reasonable that gifteds aren't, implying that we ought to be lynching the reasonable ones. (By the way, you most certainly do NOT fall into that category.) Reasonableness is a terrible reason to lynch someone.

I just can’t make these interpretations of Roa and what Boro actually said to meet… And the next one is actually as much overdonme and pointless.

Now who's trying to continue the debate? Oh, that would be you. By carrying on about the gifted an what they're doing, you are giving pointers to the wolves about how to spot gifted, and you're distracting the village from doing actual wolf-hunting. Not to mention the whole idea of what Boromir says discourages us from voting for people that we find suspicious for fear that they may be gifted, something that you seem keen to press on everyone while at the same time coming up with ludicrous suspicions that have no merit, further distracting the village.

I was not continuing the debate, I was taking another angle to it and finding Roa suspicious… not to say I was pointing to wolves how to spot gifteds. I mean how was I doing that Roa? I see this post as totally confusing and have a real problem seeing an innocent Roa making it.

The next post (#84) is also interesting as Roa seems really defensive – especially if what I said is totally frivolous like she says… So why bother then? There was no heavy overall suspicion on her at that point. And also she is careful enough to actually trying to make friends with Boro as well explaining her own words better than they were in the first place.

Then I think she makes an interesting move saying (in #88)
A reasonable reminder of what, exactly, Nogrod? That we don't want to lynch gifteds? Well, duh, we all know that. What do you make of the second part of his statement? That wolves slip by on reasonableness? How do you take that?

Which is clearly reading another person wrong in purpose… I said Boro made a good reminder of the fact that reasonable-looking people (counting reasonable-looking wolves) tend to pass our radars and the gifteds can look suspicious because of their position and pressure. And even if I answered her second question she never commented on that – so just rhetorics?

Then we come to the heavy ammunition part…

Nogrod, you say you're convinced of my guilt, but you refuse to give a reason why besides meta-gaming. And you openly state that you're looking for reasons to lynch me, meaning that you haven't actually got any.

Fair enough - as I have revealed. And I must say I felt a thorn in my side while reading this as it was true. But the continuation was a stretch to put it mildly… or should I say revealing?

I am now convinced that the secret role is the cobbler, and Nogrod is it. He's clearly hinting at being the seer, which the seer Nogrod wouldn't do, because he knows better than to do something so risky. Further more, he can't be the seer, because he most certainly wouldn't attack me like this if he was. Make no mistake, this is a cobbler planning a false reveal.

A secret role… a cobbler… what an anticlimax. And as I have argued already on D1 it would be the most stupid thing to come into the center of controversy as a cobbler needs to stay alive into the Days where her/his involvement actually matters.

But interestingly Roa is now talking openly of me hinting at being the seer – as she feels like it as I’m right? – like our game long long ago perhaps? The same feeling might it be?

And a false reveal? Well a good move but sadly not one you would see.

In the next one she says.

My problem is that this is the ONLY point he has against me, and yet he claims that he is absolutely convinced I'm a wolf. The fact that he has to look for reasons to lynch me is evidence of the fact that HE HASN'T GOT ANY.

I hope I have now answered your craving for other reasons to suspect you? The capital letters do suggest some desperation to me, but we do express things differently and so I’m not going to make an issue out of it as I don’t feel comfortable with it.

The continuation of that post looked like pretty smart one as ideas go…

You may think that a cobbler Nogrod wouldn't go so far so fast, but I think he would- getting rid of one strong player, and forcing the village to lynch him on Day 2, means two days go by with out a dead wolf, and the village becomes significantly quieter.

But really she can’t say with this bunch of people that she and I gone the expedition-ship would be quiet… or even significantly quieter. I know many of the people around could fill the silence we ‘d leave around… and "a cobbler me" would really want to make a difference later in the game when it matters...

Then she went on to make a conditionally true statement.

For one, Nogrod doesn't kill loud players when he's a wolf because he sportingly likes to get them lynched. And if he can lynch them early, well, he's done quite a feat.

Agreed. But the last sentence makes me wonder again.

And it looks like he's having fun to me. I mean, I'd be laughing my butt off right now if I were in his position.

First I thought “wow, she’s making a confession!” But then I read it again and felt confused. I really don’t get the meaning of that… It so much looks like she’s saying that if she were in my position being able to press on me like I do she’d love it (so actually revealing she was really in trouble) but it couldn’t be as I don’t think Roa would slip that way…

Her last one is an interesting one as well… so answering to Eomer she says

Okay, then why would he back off it instead of using it to back up his suspicions? Why rely on the poor reasoning of a slip when he could be using my disagreement with Boromir against me? There's no reason for him not to, so why?

I can see the innocent / guilty anguish there. But how about I was not in the first place willing to “make a case” on D1? How about I was just willing to find your reactions – and part of that game would be that I would not stick to whatsoever suspicion to try and “prove” your guilt, but just letting you know I was after you like I told earlier today to see how you react? To make you feel I know what you are like years ago?

Sorry Roa, that might have been a rude experiment but with the best one needs to use the most cunning methods… and by God I was wavering near the DL as I thought I might get killed the next Night. But then I reasoned it out that if I was right my death would point at Roa clearly enough and if I was wrong the amount of suspicion I had gathered could keep me alive. So I decided to watch the cards through to whatever end they were carrying me.

This “mercy-Day/Night” idea was just superb! :)


So what do I think myself?

Well I do still suspect Roa. There are so many things that yell wolf to me up there. But I have been looking at others as well during this no-kill Night as I had time. O just need to collect my notes into a reasonable post...


PS. Thanks for the vote-summary Mac! That was a thing I had not made yet... It will help me a lot.

[Mnemosyne]

YesterDusk was... interesting.

But this was a very good and a very novel idea, because now that our votes are actually going to count we have some concrete information to go after...

well, the votes at least.

And because yesterDusk was so interesting we actually have a lot more material to go off of instead of if there had been a bandwagon. A lot of players, it appears, felt forced to make some tough choices.

Which is why I've decided that I'm not going to vote to try to save people anymore, much less vote "politically." And I encourage others to follow suit. Granted, we all had little information to go off of yesterday, and we have little more information to go off of today. But when everyone's doing this sort of thing it creates divisions within the crew, divisions that wolves will be all too happy to exploit.

YesterDay I had to vote early off no more information than gut feelings, and now that I've had the space of a day to think about it I'd like to actually analyze what I think is setting those feelings off. Feelings, after all, can be really misleading--especially mine (I can think of several other players who've managed to make inspired votes by intuition!).

But that'll be a while later.

Something I think you should all know at the moment about me (and this is NOT an excuse!) is that every single Day this week the end of the day is sandwiched in between classes where my attention has to be elsewhere. I can't quite achieve the level of focus that I'd like, the way I've been able to in previous games when the deadline's been easier for me. So especially as the game gets rolling and we get more information I might be voting much earlier in the Day, when I have swaths of free time to get my thoughts and analytical powers in focus.

But I do want to take a deeper look at Inziladun and Pitchwife toDay.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Love the idea and the execution thereof, Legate!

My first thought was that it probably benefits the expedition as it gives us more info to work with, but I shouldn't think clever wolves will let it hinder them. What it does do is allow those who had to vote early further opportunities to make a good contribution, and also allocates to them the responsibility to use this and not bank on a casual Day One vote.

Not that I think there were too many casual votes but there often are in these games!

Now, I want to hear from the people who didn't really show up yesterday!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Perfect wolvery to my eyes.

I like how people are still using this word. Makes me proud. According to the search engine, I coined it back in 2005 (and I don't think I stole it from anyone :p ).

It's still not in the dictionary.

[Boromir88]

I like how people are still using this word. Makes me proud. According to the search engine, I coined it back in 2005 (and I don't think I stole it from anyone :p ).

It's still not in the dictionary.

I've considered co-authoring a book with Nog about werewolf/werebear tips, maybe you can write a chapter on "Terminology?" :p

And Wednesday, again I'm on a glacier expedition until 3:30, I need to collect data on Glacier Nip X "Zero" T, because it's bumping into Glacier Y2Delta. So I'm going to have to vote a few hours before the DL, to avoid the mistake yesterday and not feel rushed to get back and vote.

[Inziladun]

Toward the end of YesterDay I was desperately looking around, trying to find someone who looked worse than Mac. Every time we've played together we've tended to focus on one another for some reason. As the votes for me mounted, I did what I could to save myself. Mac's reactions as it looked as though it would be him to go actually make him look a bit better to me toDay.
I possibly should have mentioned this already, but each weekDay the DL arrives in the middle of my work day, so my activity in the hours leading up to it may be sporadic. That said, I'm still trying to read and ruminate as much as possible.
I'm glad we have this 'do over'. More posts to look at, and more appearances from the submarines (hopefully).
My issue with Mac had mostly to do with what I saw as an exaggeration of my part in the Boro-versy. Honestly, what Boro said wasn't a terribly big deal to me, and Mac seemed to be saying I was jumping on Boro and trying to make him look bad. I hardly responded to Boro at all, and I felt it was Mac who was trying to blow that up into a case against me.

[Macalaure]

I've considered co-authoring a book with Nog about werewolf/werebear tips, maybe you can write a chapter on "Terminology?" :pOoooouh, do I see a new thread coming on? :)

The Theory of WW - An Introduction.

[Pitchwife]

Nog, I found that act you pulled yesterDay extremely puzzling, but with the explanation you've given now, it kinda makes sense. As for your actual case against Roa, I've got to mull it over - it'll be interesting to see how she reacts now, anyway.

Can we assume that based on people believing there would be an actual lynch that neither Inzil nor Mac are gifted?
Either I don't get that, or it's non sequitur. People wouldn't have voted to lynch either in earnest if they were gifted? Wolves would certainly have done it. And innocents have done it before by mistake, as was discussed at some length yesterDay (by yourself, among others) - which discussion should have reminded us to be more careful not to make the same mistake again, but it's no guarantee. So I don't see how we can assume anything about Zil's and Mac's roles, pro or con, based on the votes for them.

first he pretty much throws every accusation he can think of at me, and then he adds that it's more of a vibe thing. makes little sense in this combination
I see why you think there's a contradiction here, but there actually isn't - only perhaps poor wording. What I meant is, I wasn't sure the things I found suspicious against you added up to a logical case, but they sort of resonated with each other to create a vibe, which was the only thing I could base a vote on at the time.
That said, I'd really like to hear some reasons for your changing opinions about Zil that go beyond seems and feels. I totally didn't see where you came from yesterDay, and I don't now. (The same to Mnemo, by the way!)

(x-ed with Boro and Zil)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I have to announce that Roa unfortunately had to withdraw from the game (for RL reasons, she just cannot afford to play now). I can no longer put that into toDay's narration, but I will make her leave on the following Day. In any case, she won't be participating anymore toDay so you can leave her out also of your Wolf-hunting. For the record, she was an innocent ordinary member of the expedition.

I will put a short note of her role into the Night 2 summary, too, for easy referrence.

[Inziladun]

I was going to repeat Legate's news, so I'll just say what a pity, Nog. All that work for nothing. ;)

[Pitchwife]

For the record, she was an innocent ordinary member of the expedition.
Pity she's gone, but thank Goddess that's out ouf the way!

[Boromir88]

Now onto thoughts from all the people I've studied considerably up to this point...

Wilwa: no appearance yet. She says she'll be with us today, I think we let the ice do with her what it will...erm forced glacier pun, in other words we wait for her because nothing else can be determined yet.

tromkehra: 2 in character posts, #33 was a response to Roa and #53 a response to Bes. Pick it up today trom, I may vote for you because my gratitude is on thin...ice. (And yes, I just did it again :p)

Loslote: #7 was completely in character and remarking about the inspiring talk so far, full of long words. #9 agrees with Nienna about wanting to avoid gifted reveals. #15 talks to Pitch about a previous internet game thingy, one I'm unfamiliar with. (Same thing I said to trom applies to Lottie)

Brinn: #38 said DL is bad for her, but likes people moving away from banter. And defends yours truly. #78, defends yours truly again...doesn't like how several people "jumped on me." #92 comments to Lommy about previous game when her, Nog, and Roa were wolves. #105, suspects Nog for his attack against Roa, and Nerwen for her against me. Votes for Nerwen.

She's moved into the "unsure" category, because the wagon of people claiming they didn't like how several jumped onto my comments is just as troubling as those who did. However she was the first to say she agreed and defend my reasons, so I'm still leaning towards innocence. It will take a lot to get me to thinking about voting for her today.

I would also like to just point out, that out of those who did question what the heck I was saying, Nerwen looks the most innocent. I never actually felt like she was twisting what I was saying, or assuming I was saying something I wasn't, but was searching for clarification.

Bes: #39 in character at first, but then says I back-pedalled after being questioned by Inzil, Nerwen, and Roa. #42, notes Mnemo and Roa for answering his musings about not lynching on Day 1. #44, in character and says he needs to go to bed. #136 "back and reading." #156, now he actually does back-pedal on what he said about me in #39. Is suspicious of both Nog and Roa for their arguing, but feels strongest about Mac because of Inzil's points.

I'm unsure about Bes, but let's put it as "leaning guilty." Deserves another looking and of his few posts there was a lot of in-character. I think the biggest question is how he tags onto Inzil's suspicion of Mac and votes Mac, because of it. I can't tell if it's a new player who is getting his feet frozen...erm wet, trying to get a feel, or if it's a wolf trying to absolve himself from his own vote. The "I was just convinced by this person defense."

will continue with the rest after I eat.

[Boromir88]

Either I don't get that, or it's non sequitur. People wouldn't have voted to lynch either in earnest if they were gifted? Wolves would certainly have done it. And innocents have done it before by mistake, as was discussed at some length yesterDay (by yourself, among others) - which discussion should have reminded us to be more careful not to make the same mistake again, but it's no guarantee. So I don't see how we can assume anything about Zil's and Mac's roles, pro or con, based on the votes for them.


Before I eat, should clear up yet again my dazzling inability at unclarity.

I mean since we all thought someone would die, Mac and Inzil must have both been aware they were in trouble of getting lynched. And since they were aware of this, but did not come out with any reveal, can we assume that they aren't gifted and if they are in danger of being lynched again, and do "reveal" that it is false?

[Pitchwife]

See your point now, Boro, but from my own experience, I don't think so. I've been lynched on Day 1 as a gifted (you wouldn't know that, of course;)) and didn't reveal to save myself, because I felt a) the village wouldn't benefit from my escaping the noose just to be wolf-killed instead, and b) I deserved what I got, as somebody put it yesterDay. A reveal at a later point, when the population has thinned and known innocents are much more valuable, is another matter.

[Mnemosyne]

Boro, that seems like a relatively safe assumption to make (which, considering that we don't have much information right now, is about all we have to go off of).

But I don't see how it does us much good, aside from giving us some non-Gifteds, because what kind of false wolvish idiot would decide to switch strategies like that?

And not to mention... (here's another one for the bookwriters) There was a day, early in the Werewolf years of this forum, when gifteds simply didn't reveal.

Which led to really interesting moments when people would say things like, "Tell us, Not-Seer, who do you think is a wolf? Who do you think is innocent?" (That person died the next day.) Or one of my favorites, "If you don't vote for X, vote for me, because I'm not the hunter and I won't take him down when I die!"

[/nostalgia]

However, I'm not sure if that ever held true when people were about to die. But different people have different approaches. The game that I modded had a triple-lynch between a wolf, a Ranger, and an ordo. If memory serves me correctly, the Ranger did not reveal. (This was Pitchwife, so if you'd care to back me up on this...)

So, yes, safe assumption for now, but not failproof.

At any rate, anyone who didn't reveal when on the chopping block before but does so afterwards is asking to be disbelieved.

[Mnemosyne]

I should add that Roa's departure puts paid to my theory that she and Nog were our gifteds staging an uprising. Phooey.

Which does mean back to the drawing board with His Nogness himself...

[Nogrod]

Uh-oh... I saw the announcements just logging back in and well... :confused:

Okay. The more reasons to make this post... (Sorry, but I will not edit things here to be up to date as I've written this before the news got me, and I've done enough with this post already...)


In the order of voting then on yesterDay…

Morsul (for Mac)
Reads Boro in an awkward way (maybe due to the pressing of Roa and Nerwen?). Makes actually quite decent points on Mac (same analysis, different outcomes). Votes Mac because of his possible making Boro untouchable tactics weighing more. Borrows a lot but also makes some of his own. Not that it makes him more innocent or wolvish.

Roa (for Nogrod)
retaliation… ‘nuff said earlier.

Brinn (for Nerwen)
Looks pretty reasonable indeed… and whatever you Roa say, suspicious just because of that. Careful, wise… makes good assessments on issues and votes Nerwen for bandwaggoning. But is also a bit nervous about my suspicion of Roa. Makes me wonder.

Mnemo (for Inzil)
Is one of the most reasonable people around when talking about general issues. But like Eomer said, her willingness to say that both me and Roa are innocent so many times looks like overdoing it. With the vote she first says she will pick among Zil and Pitch for vibes on the basis of who would garner more votes - and just minutes after that “throws a coin” and votes Inzil…!

Greenie (for Mnemo)
Comes to the solution because of a “slight beep on her radar”, Mnemo not rubbing anyone the wrong way. Very hard to say anything over.

So here we have one vote each…and then it starts...

Eomer (for Mnemo 2)
After suspecting Mac (and a few others) contends Mnemo’s agreeableness is too much and takes her to the lead. Says he is gambling with the vote.

Bes (for Mac 2)
First goes after Roa’s and Nerwen’s “questioning” turning it into open suspicion, then says best thing is Zil’s suspicion on Mac. Maybe newbieness, maybe calculated…

Pitch (for Mac 3)
I agree with Mac this looks bandwagonish… Seems very careful not to rub anyone the wrong way. Some very odd posts (like #127 fex.) which seem to say something but yet end up with being nothing but either/or. Also as Mac says, it’s interesting he first lists reasons for his vote but then says it’s more a “vibe-matter” than reasoning.

Lommy (for Mnemo 3)
Consistent suspicions and arguments throughout the Day… a hard thing for a wolf, but still a bit too neat? But thinking her evil would mean basically that Mac is evil as well… *needs to think*

Sally (for Roa)
Says basically nothing but trust me even if I look weird to her… Hard to assess.

Shasta (for Inzil 2)
Would have liked to vote for Eomer (for old times’ sake?) , sees no support in voting me either; does not want to lynch Mnemo or Mac and just goes for Inzil (forgot his early case against Morsul?)

Nienna (for Inzil 3)
Defends Mnemo a few times, thinks me and Roa innocent like Mnemo. Says specifically (after all the earlier) that would like to vote Zil over Mnemo or Mac. There’s something I can’t quite get here.

Nog (for Roa 2)
I had to act / see it through. And actually with Sally’s vote I was wishing to see whether Roa would suddenly – “just by coincidence” appeared back to the thread fighting back… she knows when to be visible and when not… well she didn’t appear. Confident enough or not able to?

Mac (for Inzil 4)
I can’t help suspecting him as we think in many cases the opposite people innocent and I can’t see the point of his “how people reacted to Boro” –stuff as it looked like so random… but his vote is more than understandable (which doesn’t say anything the way or another).

Inzil (for Mac 4)
Same as with Mac: an understandable self-preservation vote. But from the two seems more consistent and genuine as he had suspected Mac from early on. I really can’t see why people thought Zil that suspicious as to garner 4 votes!


Nerwen (for Mac 5 – not counted)
She’s a puzzle to me… makes some rash comments but also makes good questions, fex. as to why Mac made his list on Boro as he did as his own way would be even more suspicious then.


Did not vote…

Boro – I feel more innocent than not.
Wilwa – said she wouldn’t prolly be around and has explained
Trom – newbie and will have the benefit of doubt but needs to pull her act together soon
Lottie – wasn’t bad in the beginning… but not too good either…


Needs to read the latest and to make a summary of all this as well... *a few moments required*

[Pitchwife]

But different people have different approaches. The game that I modded had a triple-lynch between a wolf, a Ranger, and an ordo. If memory serves me correctly, the Ranger did not reveal. (This was Pitchwife, so if you'd care to back me up on this...)
Yep, that was me, and for the reasons stated above. (The other lynchee was Zil, unsurprisingly.)

[satansaloser2005]

Hmph. And I'd planned to analyze Roa too. Well, onto other things then I suppose.

[Boromir88]

But I don't see how it does us much good, aside from giving us some non-Gifteds, because what kind of false wolvish idiot would decide to switch strategies like that?


Mostly just wishful thinking on my part :p. Also when I had that in mind I was thinking of an earlier game when wolf-Mac was in trouble he faked a ranger-claim, and was wondering if Mac is a wolf here, fully aware of possibly getting lynched would he do it again.

It might not prove anything useful, but it does make me less paranoid with considering voting for Inzil and lynching him for real today.


Mac (for Inzil 4)
I can’t help suspecting him as we think in many cases the opposite people innocent and I can’t see the point of his “how people reacted to Boro” –stuff as it looked like so random… but his vote is more than understandable (which doesn’t say anything the way or another).


Wait a second...am I seeing a rather major inconsistancy here? Weren't you just going after Roa for her reaction and misrepresentation of what I said? Now you suspecting are Mac for looking the people who reacted, and don't see the point in doing it?

[Boromir88]

Now you suspecting are Mac for looking the people who reacted, and don't see the point in doing it?

Ok this is so chalk-full of grammatical errors that I can't even justify fixing it...You should be able to get the question out of that mess, but I'll just leave it as is and shake my head at myself.

[Nogrod]

Ok this is so chalk-full of grammatical errors that I can't even justify fixing it...You should be able to get the question out of that mess, but I'll just leave it as is and shake my head at myself.Heh... It took me some time to make it... I think... but I never understood your point anyway. All Greek to me. :)

I mean I thought Roa was jumping on you to make you look suspicious - and that looked like a targeted thing. But Mac tried to introduce a kind of general "interpretive net" from the basis of which anyone reacting (or not reacting) to you could be said being suspicious (which is not only baseless but also ridiculous).

Or did you have something else in mind?

[Pitchwife]

Mac, I notice I haven't responded to your defense against my 'double standard' accusation yesterDay. OK, so your first list was perhaps marginally more substantial than Zil's, though you still thought it 'pointless' yourself. But in that very list, you said:
Inzil says nothing that tries to look like something. Suspicious. Unfortunately, empirical knowledge tells me that I'm always led to believe he's guilty and then he's not.
when the only thing you had posted before that yourself was in-character roleplay.
OK, that 'suspicion' had an in-built reservation in the next sentence, so I wouldn't have made that much of it, if not for your subsequent wavering.
By the way, I didn't find your position in the Boroversy that suspicious, so far as your defense of Boro goes - although I'm curious what you would have considered an innocent reaction to the discussion, other than simply ignoring it, i.e. staying out of the only substantial discussion there was at the time.
As for the apparent bandwagoning, it irks me myself, as I rather prefer staying out of Day 1 bandwagons. But I had reasons for my vote, which I'd given before, and while they may not have been the best, they haven't really been invalidated since.

But I'd like to avoid tunnel vision and take a closer look at some other people, too. The Zilwagon, which came pretty much out of nowhere in my view, could do with some inspection, for example. Unfortunately it's bedtime again, and worktime after that, so I'll have to postpone it until later in the Day.
See you.

[Boromir88]

Nienna:
#8 shocks but likes Nog's different behavior. Doesn't want early reveals.
#60 agrees with Mac about people jumpin' on me, likes seeing Nog return to old form. Says she's trying really hard not to spite-suspect Lommy, for suspecting her for no reason.
#154 Lommy feels the worst but doesn't vote for her. Thinks Nog and Roa are both probably innocent. Doesn't know what to think of Mac or me. Won't vote for Morsul.
#165 would prefer Inzil over Mac or Mnemo.
#170 responds to Lommy saying Inzil doesn't seem like a good vote. Lommy voted for Mnemo and Nienna said "neither does Mnemo."
#174 votes Inzil. (3/4)

Nienna's looking better today than what I said yesterday. Which I hope dear you can accept this apology, when I said #60 looked like a "half-[bleep] attempt to contribute something" I kind of missed the first part where you said you had work in 5 minutes. That's why it looked rushed. :)

But I do have a few questions for you...if Lommy looked the worst to you, why not vote for her? Why did you say you wouldn't vote for Morsul at all? And why didn't Mnemo look like a good lynch to you? K-thanks.

Morsul:
#55 says I'm the only one who jumps at the moment. I think he misreads what I say, but thinks I look "more thoughtful than deceitful."
#59 responds to Mac's #57 and starts suspecting him.
#61 disagrees with Mac saying I would have dropped the argument faster if I was a wolf.
#64 personally places less faith in votes than others
#65 figures out the DL and says he can't around, thus will have to vote early.
#69 says that I look more reasonable, Mac makes him uncomfortable and votes him.
#70 defends what he said about voting in #64

I'm putting Morsul in the "innocent" category for right now. Due to circumstances he votes early, and for an early vote it looks pretty good and carefully considered, eventhough I don't think Mac is suspicious. Plus it appears that his comment about placing less faith in votes (#64) stirred up some discussion and suspicion.

I'm not sure why people thought that post was suspicious, or as Shasta put "wishy-washy." It's something I agree with, which is why having people's reasons for their votes more important. They are useful and needed bits of information, but Morsul's right, they can be easily manipulated by the wolves. Maybe in Night 1 there isn't much discussion besides a general strategy. However, after that night time discussions usually do include not only who to kill, but how they will go about the following day. This includes voting, for instance, if one of the wolves is possibly going to get lynched, who will they vote for, who they'll try to get suspicion focused on, and sometimes when they will place their votes. So, I don't understand why people had a problem with Morsul saying he doesn't place as much faith in votes as what others seem to.

It's 8 and I'm late for something relatively important, this means that I will have to finish on sally, Greenie, Shasta, and Nerwen later.

[wilwarin538]

I am here, for the next like hour or so (cause I need sleep bad), so I'll be able to read up on yesterday and then comment a bit, but most of my participation will be tomorrow since I only have 1 class, so you should see more of me then.

So reading, then comments, give me a bit...

[Nerwen]

I mean since we all thought someone would die, Mac and Inzil must have both been aware they were in trouble of getting lynched. And since they were aware of this, but did not come out with any reveal, can we assume that they aren't gifted and if they are in danger of being lynched again, and do "reveal" that it is false?

No. I think that could only apply where one person was definitely going to get it... and in practice, not even then, as WW history shows. I don't think it's a good idea to assume anything either way.

Also when I had that in mind I was thinking of an earlier game when wolf-Mac was in trouble he faked a ranger-claim, and was wondering if Mac is a wolf here, fully aware of possibly getting lynched would he do it again.

*shrugs* Yes, but he had all Day to prepare for that one.

EDIT:X'd with Wilwa.

[Macalaure]

Having read the comments so far, I will have a close look at Pitch (others agreed with my concerns) and Mnemo (several good points against her).


Unsurprisingly, there's been a lot of talk about myself. I thought I defended myself sufficiently yesterday already, but I guess I'll revisit it. I hope I'll be able to leave it at that from then on.

I can’t see the point of his “how people reacted to Boro” –stuff as it looked like so random…Here's the simple explanation. As everyone knows, any reasons to suspect anyone are horribly sparse early on Day1. That's why the lists that Inzil and I made were so void of things worthy to be said. The first interesting thing to happen was, well, Boro's statements and the whole lot of reactions to him. I was eager to gather anything remotely meaningful, to find something which enabled me to put some pressure on a few people. Did I expect that short analysis to provide much insight? Not really, but I hoped that it would stir some discussion and that that would provide it (and, yes, people suspecting me for it is valuable, too, at least from my perspective). The fact that it's still being discussed now kind of confirms it.

Did I say simple? :rolleyes: :p


But in that very list, you said:
...
when the only thing you had posted before that yourself was in-character roleplay.You misunderstand me. I didn't mean that I had posted better stuff before, but that Inzil seemed to be doing the "looking helpful without being helpful" thing. (That's just what I thought then.)

although I'm curious what you would have considered an innocent reaction to the discussionAfter my first list, in the very same post, I also made a list of people who weren't suspicious by their reactions.

[satansaloser2005]

Unless of course there was some reason he couldn't, e.g. he has a role which prohibits him from revealing or something that he didn't think people would believe. *shrugs* I think the whole end of the Day was rotten, and I'll tell you why as soon as I finish up some laundry. I swear I'll save some time to do a proper post, but unfortunately RL is eating me up. :(

EDIT: x'd with Mac

[Loslote]

Here and reading.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

It's not because you've defended me, but you were dead on about wolf-Boro backing away from controversial statements, and not desiring to slam down to try and prove I'm right. Of course Eomer and Morsul are also right to point out my unpredictability and the thrill of the fight, as a wolf, I wouldn't say I'm more cautious, but I definitely choose my battles more carefully.

I love the feeling of having no responsibility besides making a vote. I can just say whatever I want and not care what happens to me, nor feel like if I die early that I'm letting anyone down.

Given that playstyles can change at any time, I hope you don't mind if I take your "yeah that's totally how I'd act as a wolf, and since I'm not acting like that, don't suspect me" at face value, Boro. :p

Can we assume that based on people believing there would be an actual lynch that neither Inzil nor Mac are gifted?


I don't know, is that something you want the wolves to think? Wasn't there a game a few months ago where you and Phantom teamed up to get Aganzir killed by the wolves because she was an ordo they thought to be gifted?



To answer Mac - I wasn't "sure" that you and Mnemo were innocent, but to my mind there was less "evidence" against either than you than there was against Inzil, who was the only other possible lynch. I didn't vote for him because you suggested it.



Which is why I've decided that I'm not going to vote to try to save people anymore, much less vote "politically." And I encourage others to follow suit.

Why not? If, after going through the evidence, I'm not comfortable about someone's guilt, and there are two people up for execution, I'm going to try to save the one I feel better about. Throwing away my vote on someone I don't feel strongly about executing seems rather pointless to me.



Re: Boro at #202. Interesting that he finds innocent the two people I find most suspicious today.



To answer Nogrod - What early case against Morsul? I wasn't referring to the content of his post, I was referring to the way it was worded. :p Hence the bolding.



Back in a moment with a rather interesting point on Brinn I found while re-reading - I felt it deserved its own post. I'm sure you're all very thrilled. :p

[Morsul the Dark]

Morsul -> Mac (well-reasoned vote, considering how early it was)

Well Thank You sir... that being said... odd to see someone call a vote for themselves reasonable. I feel like I'm being courted to not vote this way again.:rolleyes:
hmm

Mnem:On the other hand, Morsul is irritatingly confusing and often confused. Which he is (for me, at least) elsewhere on the thread. Voting him would be easy, especially considering his vote for Mac.

Yeah I get that a lot...:p but wait.... ill reasoned moi?
Mnem: (Bolding mine)Okay, so the suspicionometers of everyone else on the thread were a lot less definitive than I thought...

And the vibes aren't giving me any more direction...

Which means it's coinflip time...

++Inziladun
Oh and This bit today:
Mnem: YesterDay I had to vote early off no more information than gut feelings, and now that I've had the space of a day to think about it I'd like to actually analyze what I think is setting those feelings off. Feelings, after all, can be really misleading--especially mine (I can think of several other players who've managed to make inspired votes by intuition!).


now these two posts... when seperate seem more like don't lynch me please.... Together make something a bit more... odd

Mac: To everyone who's not eager to lynch me, I'd prefer Inzil over Mnemo a lot.
and
Nienna:I would also prefer Zil over Mnemo or Mac.


So far that's all I've noticed.

[Mnemosyne]

Shasta: because suddenly guilt becomes relative.

[Loslote]

Okay, I'll have to vote way early. Deadline problems again...and I have no idea who to vote for.

Inzil and Mac don't look furry to me, so I don't think I'll be voting for them.

Morsul is suspicious looking, but then, I always suspect him, mostly because I can't follow his logic.

I've never played with Eomer before, but he seems to be making sense, so I don't think I'd vote for him today unless something extreme happens.

I can't get a read on Boro, despite the 'issue' yesterDay - or maybe because of it.

Brinn is another one I always suspect. This game I think she's good, which worries me...gah. Enough paranoia.

Pitchie looks suspicious, but I don't have anything solid yet. I think I will look more closely at him.

Mnemo doesn't seem furry, but I'm not anywheres near certain, and am not crossing her off the list anytime soon.

I haven't gotten much read on Nienna yet.

Nogrod is the most suspicious yet...but even he doesn't scream wolf...more like whisper it.

Not getting much from Sally, either.

Lommy seems suspicious, but I have no reason for it.

Nerwen looks good. At least, I haven't seen anything that doesn't seem genuine yet.

Bes is new. I don't know his style yet, but he does seem a tad bit off. I'll look at him later, probably not toDay.

I don't think Shasta's a wolf...but I can't quite tell.

Wilwa hasn't been around much due to RL. Understandable.

Haven't picked much up on Greenie yet, either.

Tromkehra's new, too. Can't tell very much, but his (her?) repeated posing in role kind of rankles...but not in a particularly furry way...

That turned into a list. I wasn't actually expecting that. I do lists a lot, don't I?

EDIT: xed with Shasta, Morsul, and Mnemo

[Morsul the Dark]

Mnem:On the other hand, Morsul is irritatingly confusing and often confused. Which he is (for me, at least) elsewhere on the thread. Voting him would be easy, especially considering his vote for Mac.


Morsul is suspicious looking, but then, I always suspect him, mostly because I can't follow his logic.


The fact that I just quooted Mnem saying basically the same thing as Loslate made me laugh:D

Told you I get that a lot.

[Mnemosyne]

Morsul: Touche, touche...

But it's always easy to vote for someone who you think voted weird. I didn't vote for you because 1). you were pretty yourself, as far as I could tell (which my vibes yesterday were saying were off for Inzil and Pitch... analysis of both hopefully coming up in an hour or two), and 2). to me it felt like doing so would be a copout. I don't like making "easy" votes in Werewolf, unless the Seer has come out and told me who a wolf is.

[wilwarin538]

My thoughts on the first 3 pages...

Hasn't any of your degrees taught you anything? :p

Some people are masters at creating ideas and love leading out with those ideas. Others are also masters at creating ideas, but don't have the confidence to lead out with them. While others still are great at taking someone's created idea, and rolling with it, building on it, and making it better. Others still aren't the creative type, but take all what has been said and reach their own mind. And finally others would make perfect executioners, they carry out the all the orders and make things happen, otherwise there would just be a few washed-up preachers endlessly debating around in circles....look at the greeks. :p

I neither preach nor teach. I am what I am, and I know what I am. Someone's got to be. :rolleyes:

This post makes no sense to me. Seems like a lot of talk for nothing. The last line is weird.

As an ordo I know it. 'nuff said - meaning we're coming to the "uncomfortable zone" here and I'm not willing to argue anything as it's one of those things a player is not allowed to produce evidence for (which is actually just fair). Everyone can use their little grey cells though... and I suggest you all ordos do it and see it yourselves.

I completely understand what Nog is trying to say here (though some seem confused on what he's referring too), and so I get why he's so adament about his suspicion for Roa, but:

Yes, but people don't always pay close attention to things, especially if they don't have a role.

I have to agree with Nerwen here, it's not really enough to make me suspicious of Roa aswell. Though it is enough to make me confident in Nog.


(to Boro)
In my analysis, your right, I like to be thorough. But I scan admin threads, and I typically assume three wolves, because that's the typical number. What I don't like is how when I made my slip, you were all giggles. Now that someone has said, "Oh that's suspicious," you agree.


I agree with this.



I am now convinced that the secret role is the cobbler, and Nogrod is it. He's clearly hinting at being the seer, which the seer Nogrod wouldn't do, because he knows better than to do something so risky. Further more, he can't be the seer, because he most certainly wouldn't attack me like this if he was. Make no mistake, this is a cobbler planning a false reveal.


I don't agree with this. I didn't for a second get any vibes that Nog was pretending to be the seer, I think this is because Roa doesn't understand what exactly Nog was trying to say, and because of that it's making me question her, but still not really enough yet for me to all out suspect her.

So after page 3 I currently sit at: Boro makes me uneasy, Nog I'm great with and Roa I'm iffy about.

Gonna keep reading and eventually catch up. And as a note: I really don't know what has happened after page three, I'm just doing this to better organise my thoughts, my opinions are probably going to change over my next few posts depending on what else happened. So hopefully this doesn't confuse people too much...

[Loslote]

Really, I think only Nog, Lommy, and Bes look at all wolvish to me. I suppose Morsul, Mnemo, or Pitchie could also be wolves, but I seriously don't have any reasons.

EDIT: xed with wilwa

[Morsul the Dark]

My thoughts on the first 3 pages...



This post makes no sense to me. Seems like a lot of talk for nothing. The last line is weird.



I completely understand what Nog is trying to say here (though some seem confused on what he's referring too), and so I get why he's so adament about his suspicion for Roa, but:



I have to agree with Nerwen here, it's not really enough to make me suspicious of Roa aswell. Though it is enough to make me confident in Nog.



I agree with this.



I don't agree with this. I didn't for a second get any vibes that Nog was pretending to be the seer, I think this is because Roa doesn't understand what exactly Nog was trying to say, and because of that it's making me question her, but still not really enough yet for me to all out suspect her.

So after page 3 I currently sit at: Boro makes me uneasy, Nog I'm great with and Roa I'm iffy about.

Gonna keep reading and eventually catch up. And as a note: I really don't know what has happened after page three, I'm just doing this to better organise my thoughts, my opinions are probably going to change over my next few posts depending on what else happened. So hopefully this doesn't confuse people too much...

Well since you haven't read past page three you wouldn't know this but Roa had to quit sadly... She was an ordo

[Loslote]

As an ordo I know it. 'nuff said - meaning we're coming to the "uncomfortable zone" here and I'm not willing to argue anything as it's one of those things a player is not allowed to produce evidence for (which is actually just fair). Everyone can use their little grey cells though... and I suggest you all ordos do it and see it yourselves.

This again: the post is manipulative and confusing. "It's one of those things a player is not allowed to produce evidence for" - that's where Roa thought he was trying to hint that he was a seer. One of the other gifteds could fit here, too - and we know that Roa wasn't trying to mislead us now.

"Which is actually just fair" - a weak sentence on its own. The subject is 'which' - this naturally confuses the reader. Which is not a strong subject. The verb 'is' happens to be a linking verb. Linking verbs are weak verbs, and confuse readers. 'Actually just fair' - do I really have to break this down? It's three descriptions, one after the other. One would have done the job, and would have been much easier to read.

[Inziladun]

Yep, that was me, and for the reasons stated above. (The other lynchee was Zil, unsurprisingly.)

Good times, that. :cool:

I mean I thought Roa was jumping on you to make you look suspicious - and that looked like a targeted thing. But Mac tried to introduce a kind of general "interpretive net" from the basis of which anyone reacting (or not reacting) to you could be said being suspicious (which is not only baseless but also ridiculous).

That's what I meant about Mac. It looked as if he was leaving an opening to suspect any of those people he mentioned.

You misunderstand me. I didn't mean that I had posted better stuff before, but that Inzil seemed to be doing the "looking helpful without being helpful" thing. (That's just what I thought then.)

I hate to further abuse a dead and gently rotting horse, but Mac, if your post wasn't 'better', how in blazes was mine more suspicious? How could the same not be said of you?

x/d with Lottie

[Boromir88]

Heh... It took me some time to make it... I think... but I never understood your point anyway. All Greek to me. :)

I mean I thought Roa was jumping on you to make you look suspicious - and that looked like a targeted thing. But Mac tried to introduce a kind of general "interpretive net" from the basis of which anyone reacting (or not reacting) to you could be said being suspicious (which is not only baseless but also ridiculous).

Or did you have something else in mind?

Nope, I see the difference now. Still I'm confused why you think what Mac did was "baseless and ridiculous." All info goes through personal interpretation. The only way we feel 100% confident about someone is if the seer gives us a wolf, or if a wolf goes suicidal.

Right now, everything you have looked at, all your stuff on Roa was your own interpretation leading you to believe she was a wolf. You were wrong, that doesn't make you a wolf, it just means all the "data" you looked at you interpretted incorrectly. Mac was looking at all the reactions towards what I said and tried to interpret how a wolf(ves) would react, just as you looked at it and though Roa saw it as a chance to target me and purposefully misrepresent what I said.


This post makes no sense to me. Seems like a lot of talk for nothing. The last line is weird.

An attempt at a humorous response to Nog's frustration about people's general inactivity. I was trying to point out the many various different personalities and characteristics of humans.

I'll put it in educational lingo, from one future teacher to another. You should be familiar with "group-work." You notice how some people step right in to take charge of the group, others aren't comfortable with taking charge and might prefer to have a "group leader" to bounce their own ideas off of. Other people are the work-horses who don't create the ideas, but do the writing/work so they can contribute. And of course there are always a few who just want all the work done for them. :p The general point to Nog though was cool down (literally and figuratively) we are all naturally different, and have different personalities...we all can't be the "group leader" nor are we all the "creative/come up with ideas" type...etc.

As far as the last sentence it was a reference to one of Tolkien's letters where he writes "I neither preach nor teach" plus Reynold de Chatillon (played by Brendon Gleason in Kingdom of Heaven, which I just watched the previous day). It served no purpose besides trying to amuse myself with word play.

[wilwarin538]

Plus, it took me much longer than I thought to go through wilwa's posts. :p

Oh, you are just so hilarious. :p

I have to announce that Roa unfortunately had to withdraw from the game (for RL reasons, she just cannot afford to play now). I can no longer put that into toDay's narration, but I will make her leave on the following Day. In any case, she won't be participating anymore toDay so you can leave her out also of your Wolf-hunting. For the record, she was an innocent ordinary member of the expedition.

I will put a short note of her role into the Night 2 summary, too, for easy referrence.

Oh, poor Nog, all that work. And I was actually starting to think her guilty.

On the phone with Glirdan for a bit, then will comment on this last page.

[Nogrod]

I seem to be soo after the track right now... sorry. But here's my thoughts based on my earlier analysis - and taking into account that Roa was innocent...

It's hard to say anything of yesterDay's voting as we do not know who is innocent and who is not. And I must say I still have a hard time believing Roa was innocent. Anyway, if it's anything bad or stressing, I wish you all the best Roa!

But as we need to take what is told to us as given then some adjustments are in place then - and I need to rethink some of my suspicions.



Looking at my analysis back there then... in the order of suspicion - which does not mean anything more but my feeling right now. We have a Day ahead still and the views will chance with the posting - and the order is not a fixed thing and clear to me, I could have put many people on different places. But you'll get the basic idea...


Pitch I have really hard times with. His vote is bandwagonish and he sure is careful not to suspect anyone - on the contrary he seems to put a lot of effort to look like he's discussing people but ending up round and about with everyone. Also turning his openly stated reasons (mainly borrowed from others) into just "bad-vibes" looks bad. Mac and Pitch are not both wolves.

Mnemo is a most reasonable person and seems to understand a lot. But she is a bit too nice to everyone carefully not suspecting anyone openly. Her vote was a bit dubious as she first said she would see which one of the two (Pitch / Inzil) would be more probably garnering more votes and then she just tells us she flipped a coin to vote for Zil.

Lommy can be seen to try and save Mac... her kind of half-hearted point about "Mac's last post not looking too good either" at the end of yesterDay looks like a wolf on wolf thingy (making the suspicion but taking care make a crucial vote against her mate). But she's consistent and follows the dynamics in a perfect fashion... too good to be a wolf?

Mac voted to save himself but his lists and overall being looks pretty suspicious, careful not to suspect too many people, careful to suspect only those who have been suspected already...

Bes looks pretty bad but it might be newbieness as well. Putting Mac into the lead might not be a coincidence - but it could be as well. A newbie will not receive my vote on the first Day someone is going to get killed but I do wish he would get more talkative toDay.

Brinn sounds like reason itself. Which makes me worry knowing what she can accomplish... but with her I'd look for the voting record after a few Days.

Nienna puts Zil level with Mnemo and Mac. I don't see a good case there but willing to save Mnemo and / or Mac -which is totally understandable if you feel like it - but still her vote on Zil looks to me quite odd.

Lottie made a good enough entrance but where did she disappear? Heh I should have to move you up on my list a fair deal after seeing your last post I actually understood nothing about :) (sorry, English isn't my first language so you can forget the niceties).

Greenie I might think more innocentish than not as her reasoning for Mnemo looks more or less like my own... although I get the feeling she picks her instead of me because analysing me would be a too big a work! :)

Nerwen voted for Mac in the end - presumably thinking she was making the difference... a bit uptight thisd time around but it's hard to say whether it means anything...

Morsul looks to me more innocent than not.

Shasta I'm a bit baffled about. His willingness to remake the Shasta - Eomer row looked somehow fabricated (even if it was just making fun). His choice of Zil I would like to hear more about.

Sally is hard to assess as she has said basically nothing. It's always nice to hear you are trusted by someone even if that person thinks you weird. But that might go either way. Can't blame her on her vote on Roa though.

Inzil voted to save himself, looks pretty reasonable otherwise. His first "list" was a futile one but I can't see why you people jump on that alone. Why is it that as he happend to suspect Mac so many of you jump on him?

Eomer looks too darn reasonable.. so I tend to trust him even if the little noise behind my neck says don't. But really, he has been the most rational and decent person around.

Boro seems to make sense and stand independently. I like that.



Can't put into the format:

Wilwa – not seen her
Trom – too much newbie-bussiness


EDIT: seen Wilwa... but will comment only after waking up... as with anything written the last hour or something...

And X'äd with a host of posts...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Whoever mentioned that his behaviour seems cobblerish, I agree. The problem is we don't even know whether we have a cobbler or not.

Bolding mine.

Now, I may be wrong, but it seems to me that I would have said "whether there is a cobbler" rather than "whether we have a cobbler". Honest mistake, slip of the tongue?

There's also Brinn's vote for Nerwen, which (granted, Brinn's not been here much due to RL to talk more about her vote) seems odd to me. I can't really recall Nerwen ever attacking Boro, rather than just disagreeing with him (there's that distinction again!).



Now for Nerwen, mostly for her vote - out of nowhere, last moment, and certain death for Mac had it been counted/Legate's event hadn't happened.

++Mac

for dodgy reasoning.

Now, the only place I can find where Nerwen even mentioned Mac is in #67, quoted below:

Mac, even on your own terms that doesn't make sense... because in fact ignoring an innocent Boro would also be a possible wolvish response– I should say a probable one. At least one wolf nearly always keeps out of the limelight.

Meanwhile, it being Day One, peculiar statements are going to draw attention. There's not much else to go on, after all. Boro has been saying something perfectly obvious as though it's a revelation; sometimes he seems to be be saying we should lynch on that basis and sometimes not... and if not, I don't see why he's going on about it.

As for your saying I'm "attacking" him and being "sinister"... no idea where you're getting that from.

EDIT:X'd with some Morsuls and Greenies. Also the mod.

Firstly, since when does pointing out that something's been omitted from a comment invalidate the rest of the comment? Secondly, the point you make about ignoring Boro being a possible wolf tactic has merit, but not against Mac as he didn't just ignore Boro.

Long story short, not seeing any "dodgy reasoning" here. I don't trust Nerwen's vote at all, I think that she's a wolf who tried to either kill Mac or save Inzil (or possibly Mnemo... all three scenarios have interesting connotations) and I think that if Nerwen does turn out a wolf, then Brinn is also a likely wolf (because her vote looks awfully wolf-on-wolf to me).

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Eomer! That's who I wanted to look at next! Considering he hasn't said anything of substance today yet... :p

[satansaloser2005]

Now, I may be wrong, but it seems to me that I would have said "whether there is a cobbler" rather than "whether we have a cobbler". Honest mistake, slip of the tongue?

I noticed the same thing and thought it a bit weird. But to build a case around it? Sounds to me like a Shasta-wolf grasping at straws.

I'm going to have a proper look at Brinn and see what there is to see, followed by a look at our resident quack and Miss Ni. Possibly Shasta as well, but I need to get some rest as I've got a long day tomorrow.


Also, where's the new kid? I've not seen him/her yet and won't rest properly until I give them a nickname. *pokes them* Sad day. Off to analysis then.

[Mnemosyne]

Inziladun...

First entered my radar with his second post (keep in mind that this is me analyzing my feelings for him after the fact). It just seemed odd: Everyone's been posting in character so far, except two, so what shall we do?

AHA! A SUMMARY!

This was made worse by the fact that he didn't say anything about the two people who were actually trying to post about the game itself (not that either one really said anything more than a restatement of the rules, something which I took issue with myself. At any rate it would have worked better to say something like that rather than "nothing of note".)

Next post he corrects Roa. I could see this going either way.

Next post deals with the small gifted discussion, in response to me. Concludes with "I see no reason why we should continue talking about it," but continues talking with Boro about it, two posts later. I prefer it when players suggest closing a certain discussion and then follow their own advice.

His next post, in response to Mac, looks like a legitimate rebuttal.

Next one defends self for continuing to discuss gifteds with Boro. Again, I can see his points here, since it was only one post. But that doesn't mean that he's off the hook for not following through on not talking about gifteds.

Next he weighs in on Nog's initial anti-Roa post, saying he's overreacting.

Asks Greenie why she voted me... (I suspect, for much the same reasons, sans coin, that I voted for him)

Begins fighting with Mac (at whom I also need to take a closer look). Finally votes him for sheer self-preservation.

So far today he's been continuing to talk about Mac...




I think I understand what was giving me vibes yesterday. Several of the posts he made, especially early on, seemed to be for sheer zeal of the game... that first summary, continuing on with Boro... even correcting Roa! That's the kind of exuberance I expect from two kinds of people: 1). wolves, and 2). me. The fact that he was in the most previous game pushes him more into the "wolf" camp, as I know that much of my own exuberance comes from the fact that I take long breaks in between games.

In short, I've been suspecting him because if he's not a wolf, then he's acting too much like me for my own liking. I don't trust people who act like me.

I'll have to look at Pitch and see if I get the same impressions from him.

The good news is that I do have a couple of Inzilwolf days on record, so that I can actually sit down and compare his behavior then to his behavior now, which should help me come up with something better. I'll have to look and see if we have any examples of gifted!Inzil.

And same with Pitch. I've seen him as a gifted, but I haven't read any game in which he's turned out a wolf.

[Nerwen]

Well since you haven't read past page three you wouldn't know this but Roa had to quit sadly... She was an ordo

On which note, let's remember that we now do have information about someone's role– and unlike most people who drop out early, Roa was in the thick of things.

Originally Posted by Nogrod
As an ordo I know it. 'nuff said - meaning we're coming to the "uncomfortable zone" here and I'm not willing to argue anything as it's one of those things a player is not allowed to produce evidence for (which is actually just fair). Everyone can use their little grey cells though... and I suggest you all ordos do it and see it yourselves.

This again: the post is manipulative and confusing. "It's one of those things a player is not allowed to produce evidence for" - that's where Roa thought he was trying to hint that he was a seer. One of the other gifteds could fit here, too - and we know that Roa wasn't trying to mislead us now.

I know– or think I know– what Nogrod's talking about. However, the wording is vague enough that everyone is liable to interpret it differently, so I'm not sure. If he did mean what I think he meant, it would point to his innocence– but only by the use of meta-reasoning. And I could be completely wrong anyway. I can certainly understand why Roa thought he was hinting at being the Seer.

Now, I haven't read through yesterDay, but I believe there were at least a couple of people who claimed to find Nogrod's case convincing, and probably need looking at. It was a pretty dodgy case, after all.

On the subject of grammar–

"Which is actually just fair" - a weak sentence on its own. The subject is 'which' - this naturally confuses the reader. Which is not a strong subject. The verb 'is' happens to be a linking verb. Linking verbs are weak verbs, and confuse readers. 'Actually just fair' - do I really have to break this down? It's three descriptions, one after the other. One would have done the job, and would have been much easier to read.

*cough**cough* Nogrod = non-native speaker. Just so you know. Besides, Lottie, not everyone's an English major...;)

EDIT:X'd since Lottie at 229; added comment.
EDIT2:got X'ing wrong.

[wilwarin538]

An attempt at a humorous response to Nog's frustration about people's general inactivity. I was trying to point out the many various different personalities and characteristics of humans.

I'll put it in educational lingo, from one future teacher to another. You should be familiar with "group-work." You notice how some people step right in to take charge of the group, others aren't comfortable with taking charge and might prefer to have a "group leader" to bounce their own ideas off of. Other people are the work-horses who don't create the ideas, but do the writing/work so they can contribute. And of course there are always a few who just want all the work done for them. :p The general point to Nog though was cool down (literally and figuratively) we are all naturally different, and have different personalities...we all can't be the "group leader" nor are we all the "creative/come up with ideas" type...etc.

As far as the last sentence it was a reference to one of Tolkien's letters where he writes "I neither preach nor teach" plus Reynold de Chatillon (played by Brendon Gleason in Kingdom of Heaven, which I just watched the previous day). It served no purpose besides trying to amuse myself with word play.

Oookkkaayyy....well stop with the word play, it hurts my brain. :rolleyes:

So I'm caught up, and now exhausted and confused. Boro weirds me out still, but I'm pretty sure that's normal, I think our mod time together instilled in me an automatic desire to be against him :rolleyes:. Nog I'm actually really sure about, even if his reasoning may seem a bit flimsy. Nerwen and Mnemo I'm good with. Everyone else is still up in the air.

The 3 vote getters from yesterday, I don't really get, I can't really see why they were all voted for. That's one think I will look at tomorrow after I sleep and go to school.

Which I will do right now. So that's it from me, but I should have a few hours of steady participation tomorrow between study sessions.

[Inziladun]

Now, I may be wrong, but it seems to me that I would have said "whether there is a cobbler" rather than "whether we have a cobbler". Honest mistake, slip of the tongue?

I don't see the problem with that. Semantics, that's all.

There's also Brinn's vote for Nerwen, which (granted, Brinn's not been here much due to RL to talk more about her vote) seems odd to me. I can't really recall Nerwen ever attacking Boro, rather than just disagreeing with him (there's that distinction again!).

The whole thing with Boro somehow blossomed from people simply questioning his comments regarding gifteds, to 'there's got to be a wolf in the people who responded to Boro! I still don't understand what all the fuss was about, and honestly, I don't recall anyone 'attacking' Boro over what he said, just disagreeing.

x/d with Sally, Mnemo, Nerwen, and Wilwa

[Loslote]

*cough**cough* Nogrod = non-native speaker. Just so you know. Besides, Lottie, not everyone's an English major...;)

Erm...yeah...didn't know that one. The wording makes more sense now...

EDIT: xed with Inzil

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I've also been meaning to mention...

The sled-dogs?! HOW COULD YOU?! I swear to you, someone's head will roll for this...

:(

X'd with Inzil and Loslote (who I think I'm going to call "Lostie" from now on, because I keep seeing "Lost One" when I look at her name really fast.)

[Mnemosyne]

Nog, since you've stated your criticisms twice about me I feel justified in responding:

yesterDay I was aware that both Inzil and Pitch were vaguely under suspicion by a number of people. When I went back and read through, though, the impressions that I was getting from everyone else were pretty well-balanced, i.e., no one seemed to be more suspected than the other (toDay, however, Pitch seems to have pulled ahead, probably due to his "bandwaggonish" vote yesterday). I had no time left before my next class and simply got to my "screw it" point and flipped a coin. Make of that what you will.

As for my not suspecting people loudly enough, call it my writer's instincts. I naturally tend to trust people and see things from as many sides as possible. The reason I lurked on Werewolf games so long and was able to continue enjoying myself is that I couldn't ever tell who anyone was (I was very proud of myself when I first realized, on the very last day of the game, that Sauce was a wolf... This was the first time I had ever identified anyone). Even when I analyze people, it tends to be what this says about me and not what it says about the player, because I actually know myself and how I think!

Go ahead and suspect me because of my vote yesterDay. I completely deserve that, because I should have taken a few deep breaths and thought things over some more. But finding me suspicious because of who I am as a reader of the gamethread and as a player makes me just a tad bit sad.

No different than automatically suspecting loudmouths or quiet people, though, I suppose. :smokin:

[Loslote]

Looking at Lommy.

Post 1: She is busy, won't be able to post much. She's happy to be playing.

List:

Inzil seems okay but she doesn't want to jump to conclusions.
Mnemosyne she distrusts.
Boromir88 she thinks is acting strangely but not suspiciously.
Eomer hasn't been around.
Me : she thought I could be anything but said I was funny. (Thanks!)
Morsul she had no idea about.
Brinn seems normal; could be anything.
Pitchwife was funny and nice; Lommy thought maybe too nice.
Nienna she thought looked suspicious and didn't know why everyone was saying she wasn't.
Nogrod she thought was bantering too much to be quite normal.
Macalaure she makes reference to an old game.
sally she forgot to say anything about.
Thinlómien identifies herself and flies away. I'm guessing this was joking. ;)
Nerwen is controversial; Lommy doesn't think she would be as a wolf.
Roa she thought was innocent.
Bes she appreciated seeing him, but wanted to see him more.
Shasta she thought seemed good.
wilwa hasn't been around.
Greenie was waiting on her.
tromkehra she wanted to see more out of character posts.

I have to go now, and won't be on again until toMorrow. So...

++Lommy

[Morsul the Dark]

Shastanis Althreduin
Now, I may be wrong, but it seems to me that I would have said "whether there is a cobbler" rather than "whether we have a cobbler". Honest mistake, slip of the tongue?

Is there really a difference?

and yet...

Shasta: Point against Nogrod. I don't see why something that could have just as easily been an honest mistake (and probably was - did anyone besides me see the very-last minute dropping and adding of people? First there were three wolves, then four, then three again, then four again, etc. ad.) has to be the be-all and end-all, Roa's guilty, case closed.

I've looked through Shasta's posts... She voted Inzil however...

I can't find any posts against Inzil only one strongly against Nogrod...

[Nerwen]

Loslote, why are are you voting Lommie? The list?

EDIT:X'd with Morsul.

[Morsul the Dark]

What I was wondering... But Personally at this point can't fault someone for an early vote... but a non-reasoned one...

[Macalaure]

odd to see someone call a vote for themselves reasonable.In the sense that there were traceable reasons behind it and not anything obviously illogical/made up/etc.

I hate to further abuse a dead and gently rotting horse, but Mac, if your post wasn't 'better', how in blazes was mine more suspicious? How could the same not be said of you?I don't like getting near that horse anymore, either, so shortly: yours seemed to be more serious than mine, giving an expectation of a lot of content.


I like it that Boro does a better job at defending me than I do. :D


Mac voted to save himself but his lists and overall being looks pretty suspicious, careful not to suspect too many people, careful to suspect only those who have been suspected already...Call.
So far I've been able to see where people who suspected me came from, and I've been trying my best to explain why. I'm not suspecting any of them, except Pitch a little (less, in fact, considering that you and Mnemo are after him) and maybe Bes (depending on what he'll say when he comes back). However, what you say there makes no sense.

Careful not to suspect too many? That coming from someone who focused entirely on Roa for an entire Day. :rolleyes: Yes, I didn't suspect half the expedition, but who did? I used to suspect / considered voting / am suspecting Inzil, Mnemo, Pitch, Sally, Lommy, Nerwen, Bes. Enough?
Careful to suspect only those who have been suspected already? I was the first to suspect Inzil, Nerwen, Pitch (I believe).

The point you mentioned earlier but didn't put in here was my attempt to categorise the reactions to Boro, something other people have been gnawing on long before you picked it up. One point you didn't come up with yourself and two that are sketchy, if not plain made up. The two are also horribly generic and designed to be thrown at people who are already suspected widely to make them look worse to their suspectors, who might be expected to be less critical about new accusations against their suspects.

It might have been that you only scanned my posts (yeah, I remember one post in which I didn't really suspect anybody, and did I only picked up one suspicioun (Mnemo) after considering other people's points), but considering how suspicious you have been of me all of toDay, and how often you refer to me in other people's suspicion comments, I won't buy that. Talking of which - you seem to take my guilt for granted when judging other people. I know you're smarter than that, so I assume wolvish insincerity.


Shall I apologise for mostly focusing on comments on myself today? :rolleyes: The thing is, the only bit of knowledge I have is my own innocence. Comments about myself (and you have to admit, there's plenty of 'em) are the only things that I can draw any conclusions from.

That reminds me, an analysis of how people dealt with Roa is due. And the close look at Pitch and Mnemo. Not sure I'll get to all of that before bedtime.

edit: crossed since mnemo

[Morsul the Dark]

Loslote: Lommy seems suspicious, but I have no reason for it.

Really, I think only Nog, Lommy, and Bes look at all wolvish to me. I suppose Morsul, Mnemo, or Pitchie could also be wolves, but I seriously don't have any reasons.

(About Nog)
This again: the post is manipulative and confusing. "It's one of those things a player is not allowed to produce evidence for" - that's where Roa thought he was trying to hint that he was a seer. One of the other gifteds could fit here, too - and we know that Roa wasn't trying to mislead us now.


Loslote like Shasta makes a point against Nogrod but then makes a vote for someone else

[Inziladun]

Loslote, why are are you voting Lommie? The list?

She did say, in 223 I think, that Lommy looked evil, but gave no reason why.
I really want to look at someone besides Mac for a while, and that vote does look somewhat sly to me.

x/d with Morsul, who brought up the same thing.