Werewolf LXXXI: Under the Misty Mountains

[Eönwë]

Indeed. It would be nice to have a couple more who can approach or rival tp's power, for balance.
Why is everyone focusing on either giving the phantom power or negating him? can't we just treat him like a normal representative.

I've been leaning toward Boro, but I could possibly go for Lommy or Wilwa as well, since both seem reasonable at the moment.So here Inzil is basically repeating Boro's post about balancing phantom with others, even down to the same suggestion of people: Boro and Lommy. I don't know why, but I don't like the implications of this. Of course, he does also mention Wilwa, but he's still mentioning the same thing. If we make phantom the centre of the game we won't be able to catch any elves.


And since everyone's been commenting on it, I just want to say:
You know better than this, Boro. To vote for me at that stage was frankly quite impressive in some ways. On one hand, it displays a "Might as well" attitude, which shows nerve as well as an understanding of where we are on this first day.Basically, I hope that this was just a joke/spoof that your later comments were just a continuation. In my opinion, it is almost always better to wait (if possible) until people have actually posted before voting, so that you can see what you think of them.

I'm uncertain of what you're trying to accomplish. Do you wish to keep me in the attractive lynch category without actually accusing, but rather make it look somehow like a logical option to lynch me? That's a typical elf trick. "You'll see I didn't actually suspect him, but he was the logical choice! Don't blame me!"Hm... It takes one to know one. The elves always accuse others of using "elf trick"s as you call them.


edit: x-ed with Lommy. Also, just note that I wrote this before the phantom officially became phorc.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Sally ate a rotten khup-khak. She is excused from participation for the rest of the day.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I am back, but I should warn you, I am totally spend and will soon collapse.

Isn't this the same as the 'two votes per Rep' suggestion? Trying to make a rule in terms of how you vote for your Representative? Because you would need to have one, for a single person to get that much sway. I don't like this idea, because it in no way forces that player with that much power, to work for the better good. Their only consequence would be what? Lynched the next Day for acting poorly with votes? But that would be further detriment to the Cave.

I do agree, that we should all be voting for who we think would do a good job; but who we think is an Orc first. Because an Elf could do a splendid job, but that is counterproductive.

I never suggested this as a rule that should be implemented, I was just sharing my thoughts about what scenario I find most desirable.
I am sorry if I did not make that clear.

Nope

Now if I understand Shasta, Nerwen, and Foley's objection to those who voted phantom as a rep, instead of feigning information, it looks like they are feigning ignorance and are hiding behind random votes to look innocent. Eh, as silly as it is, I don't think there's evil intent there. I've already shared my opinion on those three votes, and one thing I will not stand for is to be mis-represented *glares at Rune*



I did not attack either of their votes. I said their votes actually looked innocent.



You said that their actions (including the votes) made them look innocent, but you completely trashed them for voting the phantom. Didn't you tell them that they had no backbone and such?

[Thinlómien]

I like Eönwë's style except for how he keeps coming back to phantom.

Somehow my concentration is failing...

There really is something fishy in Celuien's manner. I think she is too calculationg and too captain obvious-ish.

Now I have reread up until the end of the first half of the Day. Currently feeling like voting Lottie, or possibly splitting to give one gut-feeling vote to Cel.


edit: xed with everyone

[Nogrod]

Bah, well over midnight and I have an early morning call...

So I'm more or less uneasy with Nerwen and Boro. And tp.

But then again I do think we would be foolish to lynch them without better cases than "uneasiness" on D1. We have a host of potential submarines around which would probably be better ideas to try toDay.

Which doesn't mean allowing to phantom's campaign over the randomness of D1's. D1's can be unproductive or even totally uninformative - but the villains can be caught on them as well. This time it doesn't look like we have a good lead (by now - there are still hours to go though) but on some other D1's we do have them.

Of others, I'm a little less convinced of Shasta's goodness (even if I still keep him in my more probably innocent than not -category) and little less bothered about Legate.

Mira I think was clearly someone who didn't read the thread - and as such not someone I would vote for a representative (another promise here) - and where Nerwen's attack on her looks like reeally bad.

Lottie looks first like more or less going by any winds present and then later on as opportunistic - in between the sense she makes.

Sally I think goes to the 50-50 category being just the toying herself with no role or using the "role" of Silly-Sally to her advantage in a bold manner. Might go either way.

I see what you Lommy say about Foley but I like her guts and would like to see more from her.

One of the few I tend to trust a bit are Wilwa (she has fooled me before) and surprise-surprise, Rune (I'm kind of surprised to catch myself saying that!).

I'm a bit torn with Izzy: she feels like she is a bit defensive being a representative whose task it would be to catch elves but then again she seems to speak sense when she speaks of others...

[Thinlómien]

Feeling a bit better about Izzy.

Hmm. That's apparenlty all I have to say about this latter half of toDay!

Shall think about these things but preferably going to sleep in 20 minutes...


edit: xed with Noggggg

[Nogrod]

Still have a half a pint left...

Of whom I didn't say anything?

Celuien
Glirdy
Greenie
Kath
Steve
Inzil

The list kind of talks for itself. Although it must be said that Inzil and also Steve have contributed quite nicely. It just seems I'm really bad at looking more closely on them on D1 and now I have no time for it. I need to step up on that in the future.

Celuien is pretty much odd this time around - is it her trying to play the phantom-fiddle or something else, I don't know. But is it discriminating? Hard to say.

Kath has said just hi and Greenie has been away most of toDay (even if her normally short contributions on the first part of the Day were reasonable as ever - whichever her role).

I have been a wolf with Glirdy a few times quite lately and then he was more or less desperate to reveal his fellow-wolves by praising them to high-heaven. Now I'm not getting that kind of overenthusiasm from him for anyone. But he might just have learned to be a bit more careful... or he's just a plain orc.

Actually I'm quite happy I don't need to vote toDay. :)

Good luck representatives! Give us an elf.

[wilwarin538]

Sally ate a rotten khup-khak. She is excused from participation for the rest of the day.

She should have eaten muuf-fäns instead. ;)

Ok, so I quickly skimmed (it's nuts, my life has been so boring lately, and then today it was just one thing after another, so I can comment quickly now, and then I probably won't be on til an hour before DL, and than that's it, sorry!)

So phantom is being silly, I think he thinks he makes perfect sense, but he doesn't. Someone who votes later on in the Day may not have any more solid information than they do at the beginning, but they can have more of a hunch, which can make a difference (it's why we wait til the end of the day to vote, and not just throw our votes around right off the bat). Even after a few Days we still don't have 'solid information' on anyone we just have deaths, and than we make connections off that using hunches. It's almost always down to feeling, and you can't have a feel for anything at the start of Day 1. So the votes were bad, they should have waited til later, and we aren't being illogical for thinking so.

Uhm...what else? About the rep voting. Yes it would be very much more exciting if the voting went all over and people had varying amounts of power, but that's disorganised and can be so unpredictable, and makes it more likely for a SoE to end up with too much power. People can vote for whoever they want, I wasn't really putting it out there in hopes of making it a 'rule', I just thought it would make things more organised, I certainly won't suspect someone who decides to give a third vote to someone they trust.

Now about my vote, I have no idea. If the people who voted me in (Boro and Izzy right?) could like write my name in all caps and bold it (WILWA) like so, so that I can see it, and then say who they want to vote for, I'll take those suggestions into consideration and likely go for one of those, because I haven't been around enough to make much of an informed decision, unfortunately, and likely won't have the time too, and since there is going to be so few votes I don't want to make it random, so I'd rather go off their more informed opinions.

I'll try to be back soon.

x'ed with Noggins

[Kath]

Shasta was pretty forceful earlier. Not sure if that's good or bad.

phantom and Nerwen are playing hints. Irritating but normal for those two.

Legate is picking up Lommy's flipflopping. 'Let's not talk about phantom all day.' ... leads to a post all about phantom. :D But then so was everything else all Day.

Haha and Lommy was either sleepy or just plain grumpy when she wrote her first post! Good points about the early votes though - why vote because you're not around if you're then around. That said in RL werewolf she's evil when acting this way.

Inzil said we don't have to vote anyone for rep, but Fea in the admin thread said that those who don't vote should and will have that used against them. It's a matter of balance I suppose. Do the SoE risk being focused on for not voting, risk voting a fellow SoE to give themselves more power, or risk voting an ordo and hoping they mess up.

I quite like Nog voting for someone he knows to be quiet for Rep. Izzy might not have picked up votes by osmosis like the loudmouths but I think she's a good choice. She's often very good at picking wolves.

With regards to Kath, I've got a feeling she will not be making an appearance today. To the pits with you! Celuien will probably, she's usually pretty busy and quiet, but far less forgetful than Kath.
I love this comment. :D

I kind of like where Lommy says "I'm not too happy about phantom and me having more power than the others". Just makes me feel good about her.

So that's pretty much what I was thinking as I skimmed through. Not sure what the Reps want from those of us without the power to vote. I'm going to leave it at this as I'm headed to bed.

[Eönwë]

Well, I had a nice long post planned, but it seems to have disappeared. These are the only quotes I hadn't copy-and-pasted into it yet:

Isn't this the same as the 'two votes per Rep' suggestion? Trying to make a rule in terms of how you vote for your Representative? Because you would need to have one, for a single person to get that much sway. I don't like this idea, because it in no way forces that player with that much power, to work for the better good. Their only consequence would be what? Lynched the next Day for acting poorly with votes? But that would be further detriment to the Cave. Not really, it just sounds like he wants a bit of excitement as opposed to boring, planned out rules for voting each Day. Basically, for everyone to vote what they want without having to think of tactics. Which would certainly make this game far more interesting (whether or not it decreases our chances of winning).

Now this looks a bit odd indeed. Why to run on defence of Boro on such a minor point? I mean the wolves oftentimes feel the threats to be more major than they are (everyone who has been a wolf knows that) and thence they feel the need to defend themselves or their friends in situations where no specific “defence” is needed (see the “confused” smilie there).
Now this is quite a good point.

As for the 'splitting up votes' idea of Vanilwuffin's and Nog's, I think it's a good idea, especially for the earlier Days. Later on, of course, it'd make sense to give more power to someone who who genuniely trust, as opposed to voting for someone else simply because the person you wanted to represent you already had xyr quota of votes for the Day.


But then, if they weren't evil, they'd just get Night-killed.

I didn't want to mention it, but if we do that then it's pretty obvious that if they're not evil they'll get Night-killed. Unless the Elves want to confuse us by not doing so.

Also, I'm not sure if the second "who" was meant to be a "we", but if it was, I just think that it will be very unlikely for us as a whole to reach a consensus on who is trustworthy (That's the whole point of having more than representative), and anyway, as I just said, they'd get quickly picked off by the wolves.

they and Mira are the only villagers that I know for a fact have voted for a true orc and not a SoE.
Isn't the Undecided Orc still a true orc even if he works for the elves? Just saying.

Oh come on, you walked straight into a point I made earlier- the fact that other votes have merely been, as you stated, a reaction or counter to the first votes! Basically, you're basing your actions upon something that you say shouldn't have happened in the first place, which means that had everyone followed your advice and not jumped the gun, you wouldn't have had any reason to vote later yourself, thus proving me correct when it comes to how incredibly flimsy our day 1 rep voting is going to be.
Something always happens on Day 1. It doesn't have to be two people voting within the first 20 posts on Day 1. And as you can see, that's kept the attention on them the whole Day (and you too, but I'm sure you enjoy that).


edit: x-ed since my last post.

[Folwren]

And Folwren, m'dear, you actually proved my points quite nicely when you were talking about Mira.

Thank you!! This has been my entire point all along, Fol! You just said most people act flippantly on Day 1, and you also said that Day 1 joke votes are perfectly acceptable!

Phantom, darling, I was referring only to Mira and the circumstances of her vote, plus my hunch that went along. I was annoyed, I didn't think she was guilty.

Un-reps, who would you like to see lynched toDay?

Phantom.

Class time. Gotta go.

[the phantom]

Just fyi, when it comes to my vote, my only concern is not lynching the Seer. Yeah sure, it'd be nice to hit a SoE, but my primary guiding emotion for my vote here is fear of it trashing our chances via killing our only gifted.

[Inziladun]

Un-reps, who would you like to see lynched toDay?

For lack of anything better, I'd stick with one on the Sally-Lottie-phantom group.


Now this looks a bit odd indeed. Why to run on defence of Boro on such a minor point? I mean the wolves oftentimes feel the threats to be more major than they are (everyone who has been a wolf knows that) and thence they feel the need to defend themselves or their friends in situations where no specific “defence” is needed (see the “confused” smilie there).

That comment from Nerwen doesn't seem like much to worry about. I don't see it as 'running to the defence' of Boro.


Interesting point from Lommy. I do belong to those people who think we can lynch a villain on D1 in a normal game, and that those who diss D1’s are more often than not villains themselves (villains love randomness – or talking about the randomness of D1 - as it leaves no trace to them)

I hate to keep coming back to it, but that's what I dislike about tp's arguments in favor of Sally's and Lottie's votes: that it doesn't matter because you won't know anything by the end of Day 1 anyway.


Why is everyone focusing on either giving the phantom power or negating him? can't we just treat him like a normal representative.

Easier said than done, but you're right.

So here Inzil is basically repeating Boro's post about balancing phantom with others, even down to the same suggestion of people: Boro and Lommy. I don't know why, but I don't like the implications of this. Of course, he does also mention Wilwa, but he's still mentioning the same thing. If we make phantom the centre of the game we won't be able to catch any elves.

I liked what Boro was coming out with at the time. Maybe that's why it looks similar.

x/d with all since 256

[Thinlómien]

That said in RL werewolf she's evil when acting this way.If you're talking about the game I think you're talking about, I became grumpy because I didn't have anything else to say and wanted to seem helpful. ;)

Not sure what the Reps want from those of us without the power to vote.For future reference: (preferably reasoned) suggestions of lynch candidates. Criticism towards our own thinking and preliminary choices.

Now wondering whether to give two or three votes to Lottie and whether the last one goes to Celuien or somebody else (phantom?)...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

If you're talking about the game I think you're talking about, I became grumpy because I didn't have anything else to say and wanted to seem helpful. ;)

And here I thought it was because I, Feanordo, and dear old Nordog were stealing the lime light with our big pointy teef. :p

Quick edit- this is referencing a game from June and has nothing to do with anybody's roles now.

[Thinlómien]

And here I thought it was because I, Feanordo, and dear old Nordog were stealing the lime light with our big pointy teef.Well also because you two didn't concentrate even though it was the cool game since I got to be wolves with Rikae and Mac! :p

*quits talking about that game*

Better vote now since Greenie's coming over to use the computer.

++all three votes for Lottie++

A bit less of a shot in the dark than most other options.

[Eönwë]

So, changes in how I view people:

Rune- looks generally innocent.
Shasta - Looks good now, but seemed a bit evil to me at first
Inzil - A few things every so often make me loose a little faith in his innocence, but he still seems good.
Nerwen - Looks very good- too good in fact. Especially since she seems to be jumping on the anti-phantom/Lottie logic bandwaggon
Legate- I like what he's saying, but he seems a bit unusual to me.
Wilwa- There's definitely something wrong here. A hint of Elvishness or something.
Izzy- Looks generally innocent but I don't agree with some of her logic.


And I still don't like Boro.


All other people are under my radar and/or should post more.


A few comments:

The fact that Boro (who I don't think looks innocent) suggested Lommy makes Lommy seem good, because firstly, it seems a little too obvious (trying to get a packmate voted as rep, an anti-phantom in this case); and secondly, she was already popular and looked good, so I think he just latched onto that because she's be an easy person to suggest as the anti-phantom).

The phantom actually doesn't look evil- I just disagree with most of what he's saying, and one of the problems is that it makes me feel like those against him are all good, even though I suspect some for other reasons. However, maybe he's trying to cause controversy to root out the elves. And anyway, it would be a bit pointless to lynch him toDay anyway, when we have nothing against him except his disagreeable posts that advocate/advertise voting for him.

Mira's vote: This is where Zil's "no vote is better than a pointless vote" comes in. What if (however unlikelily) the Seer had come out of hiding and declared phantom an elf. Votes like that would just be sentencing us to doom.

Another thing I've noticed is the phantom-Boro-Inzil triangle. Boro and Inzil attacks phantom, and Inzil even votes Boro for rep. I don't like it at all. It would be a great (and very bold) move for the elves to play.

I will be very annoyed if it turns out that phorc, Sally and Lottie are both Elves. As I believe Greenie said earlier, it's quite likely that one of the two (particularly Sally or Lottie) are wolves, as it would be an almost perfect disguise,

On that note, on the phantom and Lottie teamwork (trying to defend their side): they seem a bit too obvious to be elves, but that's exactly the sort of completely bold and reckless move the phantom would try.





Basically, if I were a rep, I think that I would definitely lynch Boro, but for some reason Izzy doesn't seem so benign to me now either.



---


I apologise in advance for any possible incoherences in this post. I'm so tried I can (literally) barely keep my eyes open at all.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

If people were unable to get information from other players in regards to their alignment, then what exactly is the point of having a Day phase?
Precisely! Izzy 4 prez.

I'm not telling you to disregard what people say! By all means, try to gain a feel for people. I'm certainly doing it. I'm simply saying don't criticize others for not voting in the same manner as you on a day when it doesn't really make a difference.
Doesn't make a difference in your opinion, which you seem to be confusing with fact (I don't really know why this surprises me). If we weren't meant to take Day 1 seriously then there wouldn't be a Day 1.

See? You used to agree with me about this sort of thing.
Yes, I used to think Day 1 was pointless. I don't anymore. What's your point?

TO IZZY:

If you care to take your humble constituent's opinion into account, I'd like to see Sally lynched today.

Sincerely,

Scavenger Shasta

[Nerwen]

Now this looks a bit odd indeed. Why to run on defence of Boro on such a minor point? I mean the wolves oftentimes feel the threats to be more major than they are (everyone who has been a wolf knows that) and thence they feel the need to defend themselves or their friends in situations where no specific “defence” is needed (see the “confused” smilie there).
I did not defend Boro. You've just decided that's what I was doing. Lommy said, "why did he say such-and-such", and I said, "well, maybe it was because such-and-such"? As a matter of fact, I am quite uneasy about him.

I could ask why you are running to Mirandir's defence– or rather, as it seems jumping on me just for the bare fact of pointing on that her vote was questionable:

Also her latest open suspicion on Mira is more like an easy throw away than anything she would have really contemplated on. I dislike Mira’s vote as well, but really, it looks like she just didn’t read the thread…

Mira I think was clearly someone who didn't read the thread - and as such not someone I would vote for a representative (another promise here) - and where Nerwen's attack on her looks like reeally bad.

And then there's Boro on the same subject:
Mira has no method to her decisions beyond "I like what you're saying, you've got my support. I don't like what you're saying, I'm going to kill you." It makes her a formidable wear-bear because it's nearly untrackable. But ultimately a poor wolf strategy, because you need to work with others and come up with some plan of attack. Trust me, you'd be able to tell if Mira was evil, because even if she would still have no method, her excitement at being evil is simply uncontainable. You would literally be able to read it straight out of her posts.
Interesting jittery tone there.

EDIT:X'd with a host.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right, I am back, but I am actually totally exhausted and my toDay didn't go as planned at all, I had only time to check the thread once during the day and not even time to post, and even now I do not feel like having anything clever to add, because most of the thread as I read it sort of merged into one confusing mess.

My thoughts which I can contribute right now are sort of random, whatever somehow caught up my attention, or what sticks out of the general mess. Firstly, even though phantom may be behaving oddly, I still am not okay with the idea to get him straightaway lynched. I think we may learn far more from his actions later, or at least I would still like to try it. Secondly, I really like Eönwë's posts. He says things I mostly really agree with. Thirdly, I am glad Kath is back. Fourthly, as for the ideas of lynching Mira, it also does not seem like a good idea to me, her vote was rather random to be Elf-y, I think - I see it no reason to vote her. Fifthly and lastly, if you asked me about possible Elves, I am generally quite clueless about many people - there's been a lot of back and forth in the thread and generally I had little time to process it very well. If I were to say somebody, I would say either somebody of the still curious pair Lottie-sally the initial phantomvoters (theoretically - possibly - even with tp himself, thinking of that; but like I said, I would still prefer to see more of him, it's nothing concrete), and then Rune with his original possible buttering-up as I said earlier, and now sort of "backed away" attitude (although might be just because he is not in the center of things), or Glirdan with the total under the radar behavior. If I was a rep, I would possibly vote the last one, but not sure.

Okay, as usually I ended up saying perhaps at least something, still, I am mostly tired now and not able to concentrate now anymore. So, good Night, folks... and Reps, vote well...

EDIT: x-ed since Folwren

[the phantom]

Who all is a rep, and how many of you are interested in lynching Boro at all?

Lommy- I disagree with the thoughts that led to your vote, but I am at least pleased that out of the S-L-P triangle you chose the corner that you did. It's the most logical from my perspective, though my reasoning would obviously be different than yours.

[Celuien]

Arrr, back at last after running around like a chicken with its head cut off, or perhaps cutting off chickens' heads?

I'll be back in a bit after catching up.

[Nerwen]

Who all is a rep, and how many of you are interested in lynching Boro at all?

Lommy- I disagree with the thoughts that led to your vote, but I am at least pleased that out of the S-L-P triangle you chose the corner that you did. It's the most logical from my perspective, though my reasoning would obviously be different than yours.
Hmmn. I believe I know what that reasoning is (if sincere). Now I have to work out how well you'd be able to second-guess me...

I would, at the moment, consider lynching Boro or one of your supporters. No, not because wanting to elect you is inherently suspicious (it is, but but that's beside the point:p), but because all three have in different ways actually acted quite suspiciously in the course of it.

Firstly, even though phantom may be behaving oddly, I still am not okay with the idea to get him straightaway lynched. I think we may learn far more from his actions later, or at least I would still like to try it. Secondly, I really like Eönwë's posts. He says things I mostly really agree with.
Ummm. These comments seem a bit... random. Legate, at this stage there doesn't seem much of a move to lynch the phantom, and if you're talking about Steve's last post it doesn't make much sense at all (due to tiredness, it seems).

EDIT:X'd with Xed.

[A Little Green]

Ouch. I'm here, I skimmed the thread through, had no time to read properly (it's currently 2 AM, my alarm clock goes off in five hours in another part of town and I have a full day of work ahead..) I'm really sorry for this mess, I was meant to have time on the computer during the day but my internet totally failed. + I believe I did say I was going to have a busy day and participate only crappily so I wonder why I was elected to be a rep.. I'll do my best though.

From what I've seen, I'm inclined to think that Lommy, Shasta, Rune, Foley and Nerwen look pretty innocentish. I'm somewhat uncomfortable with phantom and Lottie, and I'll be somewhat surprised if Sally is not an elf.

[the phantom]

Okay, been doing a bit of skimming, and I'm quite certain that today we should NOT lynch-

Phantom
Rune
Sally
Izzy

I wouldn't cry if we lynch one of these-

Boro
Glirdan

I reserve the right to completely flip-flop on all of these tomorrow.

[A Little Green]

Who all is a rep, and how many of you are interested in lynching Boro at all?I'm a rep and I'm not that enthusiastic about lynching Boro - if not that enthusiastic about saving him, either. I have a hard time trying to read him, so I really can't judge.

Gah. I really need to get some sleep now, again so sorry for toDay! I promise to make a better effort toMorrow, if I have internet that is and if I'm still alive.

++ Sally

I hope I'm right. I guess I am.

[Nerwen]

Arrrgh. My internet is showing signs of imminent death. So much as I'd like to chew the fat of who-knows-what-creature with my fellow politigoblins, I'm going to have to vote now.

++Boro for the lynch
++Sally for the lynch.

EDIT:X'd since my last post.

[the phantom]

Lommy for Lottie (3)
Green for Sally (2)
Nerwen for Sally (3)
Nerwen for Boro (1)

Lottie- 3
Sally- 3
Boro- 1

STILL TO VOTE:
Phantom: 3
Izzy: 2
Wilwa: 2
Celuien: 2

[Celuien]

As time is fairly short, I won't be able to put a lot of detail into explanations. :(

I really don't see tp as suspicious today. The worst I think he can be accused of is related to the "vote for me" gambit, which at least stirred up some discussion. So I won't be voting for him unless something drastic happens to change my mind in the next couple of hours.

Likewise, the attack on the early voters for him seems a little silly to me... I've always been in the day 1s are annoying (etc etc) camp, and had I been around before all the controversy started, was thinking of doing the same thing just because tp is tp and it would have amused me. That makes it hard for me to suspect sally and lottie on the mere basis of early phantom voting.

And no, Noggie and Lommie, I'm not playing a phorc phiddle... but I do find it fun to be in-role as an orc. *throws disgusting and probably questionably procured items in a bubbling cauldron of smelly stew* If suspicion of me is only based on being in role, that's interesting, and will place my eye in the direction of said suspectors.

Izzy, Eonwe and Wilworc seem genuine.

Something is bothering me about Boro in his discussion with Mira.

As for the rest, I really can't tell one way or another.

[the phantom]

Anyone can answer this, but in particular I'd like to know what the remaining reps think about Glirdan and Boro.

[Celuien]

Who all is a rep, and how many of you are interested in lynching Boro at all?

Well, Boro has been unsettling to me... more of a gut feeling than anything else. I wouldn't mind voting for him.

I have no real read on Glirdy.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I hope all these votes are counting. I think you're supposed to vote like this -

++YourVoteHere++

in red.

[the phantom]

Darn it, Shasta! I was going to vote properly and wait to the end to point out that the others weren't proper. *shakes fist*

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Darn it, Shasta! I was going to vote properly and wait to the end to point out that the others weren't proper. *shakes fist*

Pardon me for having the best interests of the town at heart. :rolleyes:

[the phantom]

Pardon me for having the best interests of the town at heart.
Ha ha ha! :p

Well, technically your best interest may end up with the wrong person being lynched looking back on it after the fact. From my perspective, I would just as well have it so that my vote is the only one that counts. ;)

[Isabellkya]

I find that Boro's stance on essentially staying out of things, since he does not personally have a vote. To be rather copping-out and taking the lazy, "don't want to get my hands dirty" route. What is the difference between lobbying with a vote and lobbying without a vote?

I think that ultimately, we should still play the same way as normal. Just with some not having a vote for this part of the Day. Since the opinions of the Non-Reps still matter. I've been in the same situation before, and it can be easy to just 'la la la' away, basically.

Shasta. Why do you want to see Sally lynched?

@ Phantom. I am not opposed to a Boro lynch for the reasoning at the top of this post.
Why those choices in your #275 list?

I believe Lommy voted correctly. Not sure about Greenie's and Nerwen's. If we are using both/all votes for one person, to we need to signify that somehow, like voting for them twice. Or does once, as in Greenie's case, automatically count as both/all?

[the phantom]

My slightly more daring side wants to mount a push against Boro.

My safer side wishes to put my votes on Glirdan.

My chaotic side wants to shoot for someone I haven't looked at much.

[Isabellkya]

Are you a professional Gambler phantom?
[Do you play poker, or some other sort of game which involves betting on odds somewhat regularly?]

[wilwarin538]

The worst I think he can be accused of is related to the "vote for me" gambit, which at least stirred up some discussion.

Even that, though, in his case isn't suspicious. What Day 1 ever goes by without Phantom suggesting some crazy plan that would leave him with all the power, and that no one in a million years would go along with? Especially in games like this, where the dynamic is different, he waltzes in with some idea along the lines of "I'm the bestest and the smartest, do what I say and we win", so we really can't suspect him for that. (and he greatly amuses me and Timmy, I'd hate to see him go so soon)

Now regarding Boro and Glirdan? Boro seems fine to me, though I haven't had as much time to really look at people as I'd like, but his reactions to Phantom are to be expected in my opinion, and nothing really seems evilish to me. Then Glirdypie, well his logic always seems rediculous to me, considering how well we mesh in RL I still have no idea why we clash so much in WW :rolleyes:. So I'm going to give him a Day or two before I pounce on his logic. So no, I shall not vote for either of them.

Now Sallycakes and Lottiepop, well I hearts them greatly *snuggles*, but would be willing to lynch them both. At the moment the way Lottie defended Phantom so much earlier seemed strange to me (I think it was Nerwen she was talking back and forth with, and the whole exchange was just so weird), so I'd be leaning more towards her, she just seems so sneaky.

I feel very good about X'ed, Shasta and Noggins, and fairly neutral about the others.

I'll be on for the next half hour, and then I have to vote.

x'ed with Phantom, Izzy, Phantom, Izzy

[the phantom]

Why those choices, Izzy? On the innocent list, it's either a strategic choice or because they have on at least three occasions said something that set off innocent alarms. The strategic reasoning I choose not to detail at this time. That'll be something for tomorrow.

On the guilt list, I mentioned a couple times earlier that Boro was off and that his reactions to a couple things I've done seemed wrong. Glirdan on the other hand just seems incredibly safe to lynch and a bit of a principled lynch as I recall he was suspicious of a great many things but not so much so that he was willing to vote for a rep (he never voted).

[Nienna]

I hope all these votes are counting. I think you're supposed to vote like this -

++YourVoteHere++

in red.

Yes, they will still count. Please try to remember better for toMorrow.

[the phantom]

Ha ha! I actually have people ask me that in RL a lot, Izzy! :D

I do enjoy a bit of recreational poker and sporting picks and brackets etc, but I don't do so for cash.

[Celuien]

Ok, I have to vote now.

Both votes ++Boro++

[the phantom]

Okay, have to leave now. I'll be back online as soon as I'm home. Fifteen minutes I'd guess.

[wilwarin538]

I do enjoy a bit of recreational poker and sporting picks and brackets etc, but I don't do so for cash.

*has incredible luck at pocker, without even understanding how it works*

Why those choices, Izzy? On the innocent list, it's either a strategic choice or because they have on at least three occasions said something that set off innocent alarms. The strategic reasoning I choose not to detail at this time. That'll be something for tomorrow.

Yet another thing he does every Day 1, "I have a brilliant plan, if you pay close enough attention you may figure it out, if not I'll explain it eventually. Just trust me". ;)

x'ed with Celuien and Phantom

[Isabellkya]

Trust is a luxury in these games, and seems incredibly foolish to me to be entrusted to another; especially on the first Day.

@ phantom. Those choices are rather odd, to be honest, and it does reek of scheme.

[wilwarin538]

So that there's one on this page.

Lommy for Lottie (3)
Green for Sally (2)
Nerwen for Sally (3)
Nerwen for Boro (1)
Celuien for Boro (3)

Lottie- 3
Sally- 3
Boro- 3

STILL TO VOTE:
Phantom: 3
Izzy: 2
Wilwa: 2

Hmm, nice little tie going on at the moment. And basically it will be whoever of those three Phantom wants to lynch, since he outweighs Izzy and I (unless we vote the same).

x'ed with Izzy

[wilwarin538]

I have 5 minutes before I need to go.

Izzy, who are you planning to go with? I may split my votes between Lottie and Sally and see what happens. But I don't think I'll be going for Boro.

[wilwarin538]

Ok, so I'm going to do this than, since I don't know which of the two Izzy really prefers to vote for, and I'm cool with lynching both:

++Sallycakes++

++Lottiepop++

That way if Phantom goes with Boro (like he seems to be wanting to do) and Izzy feels like lynching one of the girls instead, then she can still accomplish that and get a double lynch.

[the phantom]

Lommy for Lottie (3)
Green for Sally (2)
Nerwen for Sally (3)
Nerwen for Boro (1)
Celuien for Boro (3)
Wilwa for Sally (4)
Wilwa for Lottie (4)

Lottie- 4
Sally- 4
Boro- 3

STILL TO VOTE:
Phantom: 3
Izzy: 2

[the phantom]

Meh, now I don't like Wilwa either (her vote, and what she says about Glirdan).

Izzy- any chance at all you'd go with Glirdan? We'd need all five of our votes to shoot him into the lead.

[the phantom]

Just realized, Izzy- if you vote for one of the girls and I vote for Boro, it'll be a double lynch.

[Isabellkya]

That is a good point Wilwa, and it looks like phantom will have the deciding vote(s).

I can just feel this ending up in a tie, and phantom voting Boro all by himself with all of his votes, and Boro would be lynched.

All of this talk about not letting phantom get power crazy, and look where we are.


X'd with phantom x2

[the phantom]

So yeah, I don't like the spot we've been left in exactly, and Wilwa just leaving it in our hands like that, and actually encouraging a double lynch... Bleh... And something about the way she said Glirdan's thinking was wrong but she'd wait a couple days before pouncing.

Or perhaps I'm just hoping for anything that makes him look guilty, as really he's more of my "safe" pick (didn't participate much, didn't lean any which way, didn't vote). Dunno...

[Isabellkya]

Glirdan's guilt usually stands out to me, and I've not nada on him. However Wilwa tends to be on the protective side of him as well. Hmm.

[Loslote]

How is my vote better than theirs? I actually gave it thought, and used it to try and counter what they started in motion.

Why do you assume that, just because I voted early, I did not give my vote thought?

[quote]I have always been quick to defend people against arguments I consider to be flawed. Nerworc's arguments against tp were, in my opinion, flawed./quote]

I believe you responded to Nerwen of how could she distrust Phantom on banter. Well.. how could you trust him on banter?

This is redundant; you already asked this, and I already answered.

It seems to me that you are defending him based nothing on what you think of his alignment. But because Nerwen's arguments against him, in your opinion were flawed.

Yes...yes, that's about right. How is this a problem? If someone were to accuse you for flawed reasons, I'd defend you, too - even though I trust you about as far as I can throw you at this point.

I never claimed that I knew for certain the alignment of who I voted for. However, I did give it thought - which is a difference between the votes. If people were unable to get information from other players in regards to their alignment, then what exactly is the point of having a Day phase? Hmm? You seem to think that information relies solely on what occurs during Night. Which is ridiculously .. flawed and lazy. Your entire stance is rather odd, and it definitely shows you are up to something - but when aren't you. It also seems like you are faking here, and I question how it is productive and good for the Cave.

Again, why do you assume I did not give my vote thought? This is rude and condesending. Simply because there were fewer posts does not affect my own ability to think and vote the way I thought would best help the village.

Lottie, I've heard your resonings but this is plain weird. Is your mind really that easily turned?

Early on was banter. I did not think about the implications of voting him; I simply went along with the 'oh, that phorc, he's so silly' state of mind. After I thought about the implications, I realized that voting him was actually not a bad idea - for reasons I later stated. Honestly, I thought it was obvious if people thought about it - give phorc a chance to have the spotlight, let him prove himself, and try to get a feeling for an inherantly slippery player. Since I didn't think much exciting would happen (and, as it turns out, the only real discussion later was about my vote), I decided to go ahead and vote. I expected to go to sleep hours before I actually did, which, sadly for my mental state the next day, did not happen.

Lottie is really very careless and confident in the beginning of Day1. Reminds me of a wolf who's happy with her pack and thinks they'll win... or a happy-happy orco. She also gives the impression that she is voting first and then coming up with reasons afterwards. Hmm... Wonder if I should change my mind about her.

Have you never played with me? Start of Day 1, I'm, for lack of a better word, bouncy and happy. Usually at the start of most Days I'm bouncy and happy (unless we've lost a Gifted, in which case I'm bouncy and sad).

I didn't want to mention it, but if we do that then it's pretty obvious that if they're not evil they'll get Night-killed. Unless the Elves want to confuse us by not doing so.

So...what? We elect people we don't think will do what's best for the village for fear that the wolves will kill the people we honestly think will be good representatives? That's like, in a normal game, ignoring someone who makes sense in favor of someone who doesn't because you don't want to lose the player you think is making sense. In that case, you've already lost the chance of utilizing the player's good ideas, and instead are following someone who could well be on the evil team. :rolleyes:

EDIT: xed with the Remaining Reps

[the phantom]

Ok, so I'm going to do this than, since I don't know which of the two Izzy really prefers to vote for, and I'm cool with lynching both:

++Sallycakes++

++Lottiepop++

That way if Phantom goes with Boro (like he seems to be wanting to do) and Izzy feels like lynching one of the girls instead, then she can still accomplish that and get a double lynch.
Izzy- do you find that suspicious at all? Particularly reading that final paragraph? I mean, this is the worst time in the game to have a double lynch! It just really makes me nervous about her being a SoE and she knows good and well that all the leaders are orcs.

[the phantom]

Just so I know where you stand, out of Lottie, Sally, and Boro, who are you leaning towards, or do all look shady? Can you rank them at all? My ordering of desired lynch would be Boro, Lottie, and definitely last Sally. And as far as new candidates- Glirdan is my favorite, and because of the way she ended, I might be willing to have a look at Wilwa.

[Isabellkya]

I assume it Loslote, because I don't believe any of your posts prior to your vote indicated that you had given it thought. In your most recent post, you even admit to not thinking of the implications until after you voted.

The second part of Wilwa's post I find eyebrow raising. Seems to be she is for a double lynch.

Right now I'm leaning more Loslote than anything.

X'd with phantom.

[Isabellkya]

With four minutes left, it didn't give me time to look at Glirdan's post in isolation, even though there were only five, since I was responding to Loslote.

I would rank my preferences of those five as::
Loslote
Sally
Boro
Glirdan
Wilwa

[Loslote]

I assume it Loslote, because I don't believe any of your posts prior to your vote indicated that you had given it thought. In your most recent post, you even admit to not thinking of the implications until after you voted.

I said nothing of the kind. I did not think of the implications while I was bantering. I then thought of the implications, and voted because of the implications.

[the phantom]

Well, if you're planning on voting Lottie, then I'd say you have all the power, as I have no interest in forging a tie on Day 1.

Risky business this is. I wish I had six votes and could just slap them on Glirdan or Wilwa and get this over with.

[Isabellkya]

I must of misread your post then, when I was quickly reading. Because that is how it came off to me.

X'd with phantom

[Isabellkya]

need to vote
++Loslote++ x 2

[the phantom]

Well, that's the lynch then.

[Loslote]

Oh, that was totally unexpected. :rolleyes:

[the phantom]

Oh, and I'm the Seer. Just sayin.

[Nienna]

Deadline. Stop posting.

Lottie has died. Her role will be revealed during the narration.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs619.snc4/57892_160316667312070_100000012124034_506176_28904 20_n.jpg

Lottie has died. She was Elladan.

Night Two now begins. Elf and Elf Friends, you may PM. Seer, please send in your dream. Orc of unknown allegiance, please pick a side.

Dead:
Feanorc and Niennorc - beheaded in the dark
Lottielf (Elladan) - axed in the head

Alive:
Boro
Celuien
Foley
Glirdy
Greenie
Izzy
Kath
Legate
Lommy
Mira
Nerwen
Nog
Phantom
Rune
Sally
Shasta
Steve
Vanilwa
Zil

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs645.snc4/60572_160557137288023_100000012124034_507310_16014 53_n.jpg

Izzy has died. She was an ordo.

Day Two now begins. Elf and Elf Friends, you may not PM.

Dead:
Feanorc and Niennorc - beheaded in the dark
Lottielf (Elladan) - axed in the head
Izanordorc (ordo) - head cut off in her sleep

Alive:
Boro
Celuien
Foley
Glirdy
Greenie
Kath
Legate
Lommy
Mira
Nerwen
Nog
Phantom
Rune
Sally
Shasta
Steve
Vanilwa
Zil

[the phantom]

There are oh so many things to say, but I'm not quite done with my reread. Just one quick question before I go back to reading-

Boro- have you decided upon your alignment yet?

[Boromir88]

Boro- have you decided upon your alignment yet?

It's always been with the Orcs good sir. You really expected the Elvsies to fall for the "I'm the Seer" stunt? :rolleyes:

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs604.snc4/58460_160574357286301_100000012124034_507344_69970 29_n.jpg

Due to unforeseen circumstances, Borc is no longer with us. He was an ordo.

Dead:
Feanorc and Niennorc - beheaded in the dark
Lottielf (Elladan) - axed in the head
Izanordorc (ordo) - head cut off in her sleep
Borc (ordo) - nommed some poison by accident

Alive:
Celuien
Foley
Glirdy
Greenie
Kath
Legate
Lommy
Mira
Nerwen
Nog
Phantom
Rune
Sally
Shasta
Steve
Vanilwa
Zil

[the phantom]

Sure, just when I'm about to engage in a very fun back-and-forth go and drop out of the game! Hmph!

[wilwarin538]

So I'm just coming on to clear up a few things before I go to sleep, I wasn't able to come on a lot yesterday, so I'd like to give the more detailed explanation to my actions now, that I hadn't had the chance to do yesterday.

Where I was there was a tie between Lottie, Sally and Boro, I didn't want to vote for Boro and was ok with lynching either Lottie or Sally. I hadn't had the chance to really read over things very thoroughly so regarding Izzy all I knew was that she was ok with lynching Boro, but I didn't know how she felt about Lottie and Sally (that's why I asked who she was going for, but I didn't have time to wait for her answer). I figured Phantom would vote Boro. So I thought if I put both my votes for, let's say Sally, but Izzy would have preferred to kill Lottie than she wouldn't have been able to do it since Phantom's votes for Boro would have outnumbered her (and same if I voted Lottie, but she wanted to lynch Sally). So since I was ok with lynching both, the only way that made sense to me was to split my votes, and that way if she wanted to kill Boro she could, and my votes wouldn't have made a difference anyway, but if she really really wanted Lottie or Sally dead than she could still do that (but it would just result in a tie).

Now everyone's like "oh my, she's advocating double lynches! how aweful" and I'm here wondering when on earth did double lynching become such an aweful thing, because I seem to remember that early on in WW it was a common occurence, then suddenly it wasn't allowed by Mods anymore, and now no one likes it. Well I think it would be a tremendous time saver, since the two people we didn't lynch yesterday will likely come up for suspicion again and be lynched later, and it would have been beneficial to just get 2 of them out of the way together and give us an extra lynch later. Lynching is our only tool for getting the Elves, so what's the harm in getting a couple done at once? I don't understand.

And me not going after Glirdan, like seriously, anyone who's played with us recently shouldn't be surprised. Him and I have such an aweful track record of going at each other like crazy on the first day, and then we both turn up innocent, that now we always give each other a Day, and if we still suspect each other than we go with it later. And we certainly aren't the only ones who say something like "I always suspect them, and I'm always wrong, so I'll leave them be for now".

And then Phantom. Well that was weird, and the only way it could make remotely any sense is if he's just an Ordo who was maybe trying to protect the Seer for a Night (though I can't see Phantom putting himself in the line of fire like that, at least not on the first Day). Then he could be an Elf (in which case clearly the real Seer needs to stay quite), but again, I don't see the benefit of this so early in the game. But it seems highly unlikely he's actually the Seer, cause that would be dumb, and I know he's not. Or there's something I'm totally missing, and if that's the case than do enlighten me, cause this just seems crazy no matter which way I look at it.

But now I need to sleep, I just wanted to get that all out there right off the bat. I *should* be around more for the next two Days.

x'ed with Timmy and Phantom...uhm, what? I don't think that's him dropping out, it seems more like some random act of the Moddess

[satansaloser2005]

K, so WHY were people voting for me yesterDay? I am unimpressed. :rolleyes:

That being said, I apologize again for not returning/posting more. Funny part is, Lottie's post had an air of wolfishness to them but I didn't want to get on the thread and post anything because A: I wasn't very coherent, B: I didn't want to look like I was trying to save my hide, and C: I trusted Phantom to keep me around.

Speaking of which, did I miss Phantom's vote? Or did he not use them?


Also, what happened to Boro? And why do I have so many questions?!?! *flails*


I'm going to bed. I mean it when I say I won't be back for about twelve hours.


Quick notes/feelings:

Guilty vibes from: Vanilwa, Steve, Cel
Innocent vibes from: Nog, Legate
Insulted vibes from: Lommie :p

I'll have to read the thread again, and then I'll try to give more thorough responses.

And again, to any that asked, I voted Phantom for representative yesterDay because, on the whole, he is an intelligent player with whom I trust my voice, even if he is a pigheaded narcissistic airhead. (With love, dear.) There's very few better ways to test Phantom than to give him power, and the best time to do that is on the first Day when he can be vocal and annoying but do hopefully very little damage. And look at that, we got a wolf. Color me surprised and excited. ^_^

*clomps off to bed, throws her smelly boots at small children* And no free drinks while I'm gone! :mad:

[the phantom]

Just a quick point- I do not necessarily support giving voting power today to the people most likely to be innocent, particularly if they are likely innocent because they've already proven themselves with their vote as a rep. I would like to see new blood for the most part, while we have time. It will be more important at the end to hand power to the sure thing. Right now let's try and give others a chance in hopes that a couple of others can prove themselves as well, giving us a better chance of having someone trustworthy left alive at the finish.

[Inziladun]

Obvious question first: Why is phantom still alive?

If not for him, Izzy being targeted would be understandable, because her votes were the nail in the coffin for Lottie. But we have a Seer-reveal. And while we're on the subject, even if tp is lying, which seems likely, the real Seer needs to keep quiet for now.

I don't pretend to know what's up with phantom, and I'm not all that hopeful about being enlightened. But in my experience, a revealed Seer is generally a dead Seer. I could see no reason he would have legitimately revealed on Day 1, so I was already sceptical. But why would the elves not have taken him anyway to be on the safe side? There's no one to protect him.

Wilwa's latest comes across as highly defensive.

Speaking of which, did I miss Phantom's vote? Or did he not use them?

You didn't, and he didn't.

Also, what happened to Boro? And why do I have so many questions?!?! *flails*

Boro appears to be a modfire. As to why you have so many questions, I have no answer.

x/d with phantom

[the phantom]

-1-
The following people should be completely and totally off the lynching block today-

Greenie
Lommy
Phantom
Rune
Sally
Steve

Which leaves for lynching... everyone else.

-2-
Largely under my radar

Kath- You will be around more today?
Mira- You too?
Glirdan- You too?
Celuien- No feeling here, surprisingly.
Nog- I realize you had limited time, and your mix of defenses and finger-pointing looked standard.
Foley- Very single-minded yesterday. I can understand an Ordo with a death-grip on a theory, but I'd like to hear more about what other thoughts she has.
Wilwa- Considering the number of posts I have basically no thoughts here. I'm leaning careful Ordo right this second, but I'm not convinced.

-3-
I'd really like to have a bit of a chat with these folks.

Inzil- I absolutely hate your idea that people should not vote for a rep unless they mean it or whatever. I mean, who is always guaranteed to know what they're doing? The SoE. Therefore if anyone refrains from voting it'll probably be an Ordo, which means the vote is more likely to go the SoE way. And overall I thought you were too nice and happy in general. Afraid to make enemies or something. I'll be watching you.

Shasta- You were on both ladies all of yesterday, but you definitely seemed to favor fanning the flames towards Sally rather than Lottie. But then in 282 you said Lommy voted correctly, and she voted Lottie rather than Sally. It brings to mind the nasty idea that you wanted your attack to be proven wrong via a Sally lynch, thus saving Lottie, but then to make yourself look better at the end (when it seemed Izzy would choose Lottie) you gave the thumbs up on the Lottie choice. At least that's the suspicious story I came up with. What is your version? (SEE EDIT)

Legate- I'm really really back and forth on you. I found myself head-nodding with you much of the time, and your suspicions and defenses were well-balanced and such, but, BUT- there was one thing I didn't like about you, and that was the way you handled your rep vote. You really seemed to agonize over it in an odd way, as if you didn't want to make the choice or something. In 109 for instance it looks like you're setting up to later let your voting choice be made by others basically, and in 147/152 that is what in fact happens, yes? Basically in the end, your vote was the logical and only choice rather than your choice, and there's something dodgy about that. Am I off here?

Nerwen- I'm very undecided about you. On my little list of accusations and defenses, I have your line absolutely blank! Was I a screw-up during my readthrough, or were you especially skimpy with opinions yesterday? But at the same time, your post 273 made me wonder if you were maybe the only person on my wave-length as far as understanding precisely what I was up to yesterday (when you quoted my thoughts on Lommy's vote- you seemed to be wise to the fact that I was completely okay with lynching Lottie despite my seeming defenses of her, as evidenced by me not saving her).

(EDIT- I attributed the Lottie support post to you. Don't know how I mixed that up.)

[Inziladun]

Just a quick point- I do not necessarily support giving voting power today to the people most likely to be innocent, particularly if they are likely innocent because they've already proven themselves with their vote as a rep. I would like to see new blood for the most part, while we have time. It will be more important at the end to hand power to the sure thing. Right now let's try and give others a chance in hopes that a couple of others can prove themselves as well, giving us a better chance of having someone trustworthy left alive at the finish.

So Lommy, who gave three votes for Lottie, shouldn't be considered as a rep again? She looks pretty good to me.
The others I might agree about, since they're harder to figure.

x/d with phantom again

[the phantom]

Obvious question first: Why is phantom still alive?
Well, they obviously decided I was bluffing. The only question is, was I? We'll know eventually.
So Lommy, who gave three votes for Lottie, shouldn't be considered as a rep again? She looks pretty good to me.
She's the obvious one, yes. And when I came up with that idea Izzy was still alive (I had the thought early today).

And if you're inclined to extend innocence to Wilwa for her one vote on Lottie, you wouldn't want to vote her for rep either.

Also, don't make me a rep if you're inclined to extend innocence to me for not saving Lottie when I easily could have (by voting Sally or voting for Boro before Izzy cast her vote), or for not double-lynching an innocent Boro alongside her as I could have done.

[Nerwen]

Ya hoi! Ya harri hoi! Come on, one of you big warrior-lads who are always boasting about how many Dwarf-skulls they've cracked! Give a poor Orc–ess a hand! No? Gah, curse the lot of you lazy filth!

...Ah, there we go. How do you all like the Cavern Tavern's latest ornament? Took me all Night to stuff and cure Elladan here, but doesn't he make a fine sight, with the axe still through his head? *laughs orcishly* Let's drink to him, lads! First round's on the house!

–So, no surprises about the Night-kill. Izzy was the person I expected to find dead in the morning– she would have been very hard to lynch, plus she might well have looked like the Seer.

We've got more to think about, anyway. Such as: what is phantom, and why did Lottielf vote for him?

I can see three possibilities:

1. He's an Elf. Simple.
2. He's not an Elf, but, in direct contradiction of what she says here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=639037&postcount=36), she was confident of being able to manipulate him.
3. He's not an Elf, but she believed him to be the Unknown Orc, who had already decided to go over to the Elves (denies this here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=639041&postcount=40) and here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=639045&postcount=44)).


There are oh so many things to say, but I'm not quite done with my reread. Just one quick question before I go back to reading-

Boro– have you decided upon your alignment yet?
Now, I thought Boro might be an Elf, up until he died– but you thought he was the Unknown Orc, phantom? Why?

And what do you think Lottielf was up to?

EDIT:X'd since Wilwa.

[Inziladun]

Well, they obviously decided I was bluffing. The only question is, was I? We'll know eventually.

Well, a sane person wouldn't have done what you did if they were the actual Seer. However, I know you aren't quite sane. :rolleyes: Still, it would seem a pretty big gamble for the elves to ignore you, when they could have just killed you anyway.

And if you're inclined to extend innocence to Wilwa for her one vote on Lottie, you wouldn't want to vote her for rep either.

She split her vote, so she doesn't look as good as Lommy. And like I said, I didn't much care for her last.

Also, don't make me a rep if you're inclined to extend innocence to me for not saving Lottie when I easily could have (by voting Sally or voting for Boro before Izzy cast her vote), or for not double-lynching an innocent Boro alongside her as I could have done.

Your vote (actually, the lack thereof) and your survival through the Night leave me disinclined to vote for you.

x/d with Nerwen

[Nerwen]

Obvious question first: Why is phantom still alive?

If not for him, Izzy being targeted would be understandable, because her votes were the nail in the coffin for Lottie. But we have a Seer-reveal. And while we're on the subject, even if tp is lying, which seems likely, the real Seer needs to keep quiet for now.

I don't pretend to know what's up with phantom, and I'm not all that hopeful about being enlightened. But in my experience, a revealed Seer is generally a dead Seer. I could see no reason he would have legitimately revealed on Day 1, so I was already sceptical. But why would the elves not have taken him anyway to be on the safe side? There's no one to protect him.
Because his reveal was obviously fake, for the reasons you've just stated. (Come on, did anyone read that yesterDay and say: "ZOMG! He was the Seer all along!") Whereas Izzy must have looked pretty Seer-ish. No, I don't find tp's continued existence at all strange.

I'd like an explanation from him though– it seemed completely pointless.
EDIT:X'd with Zil; added comment.

[the phantom]

Now, I thought Boro might be an Elf, up until he died– but you thought he was the Unknown Orc, phantom? Why?
Heh heh, no, I just hoped given the time of day he'd be around after I was done rereading, as I wished to start a bit of back-and-forth with him to get a feel for him, as on the first day I thought he was extremely weird and I couldn't get a handle on him.
Because his reveal was obviously fake, for the reasons you've just stated. (Come on, did anyone read that yesterDay and say: "ZOMG! He was the Seer all along!") Whereas Izzy must have looked pretty Seer-ish. No, I don't find tp's continued existence at all strange.

I'd like an explanation from him though– it seemed completely pointless.
Well, naturally my explanation depends completely on who I am. If I'm the Seer, then I'm flippin daring and, depending upon how long I survive, stupid or brilliant. If I'm an Orc then I still gave the SoE something to think about, as you can't dismiss someone like me pulling an obvious double-bluff. If I made them spend even 10 minutes extra on my posts, that's 10 minutes they weren't spending doing better things. If they're busy in RL then that 10 minutes could've been very valuable.

And honestly I think it may have paid off either way. If I'm the Seer then obviously it worked. If I'm not the Seer then I think I may have wasted some of the time they spent on deciding their kill, as Izzy was not definitively on board the Lottie-train so much as she was just the one who cast the final vote for her. I mean, what are the odds that Izzy would have happened to dream of the exact SoE who just happened to be on the chopping block at the end? No, no, there were other targets to go after besides Izzy.

[Inziladun]

Since you're here, Nerwen, why did you cast your votes for Sally and Boro?

[Nerwen]

K, so WHY were people voting for me yesterDay? I am unimpressed. :rolleyes:
For my part, I wanted to vote one of phantom's constituents. Lottie already had three votes at that stage, while there was no support for Mirandir.

That being said, I apologize again for not returning/posting more. Funny part is, Lottie's post had an air of wolfishness to them but I didn't want to get on the thread and post anything because A: I wasn't very coherent, B: I didn't want to look like I was trying to save my hide, and C: I trusted Phantom to keep me around
Oh.

And again, to any that asked, I voted Phantom for representative yesterDay because, on the whole, he is an intelligent player with whom I trust my voice, even if he is a pigheaded narcissistic airhead. (With love, dear.) There's very few better ways to test Phantom than to give him power, and the best time to do that is on the first Day when he can be vocal and annoying but do hopefully very little damage. And look at that, we got a wolf.
Your fellow phantom-voter. Don't you have anything to say about that?

Nerwen- I'm very undecided about you. On my little list of accusations and defenses, I have your line absolutely blank! Was I a screw-up during my readthrough,
Clearly.

But at the same time, your post 273 made me wonder if you were maybe the only person on my wave-length as far as understanding precisely what I was up to yesterday (when you quoted my thoughts on Lommy's vote- you seemed to be wise to the fact that I was completely okay with lynching Lottie despite my seeming defenses of her, as evidenced by me not saving her).
*shrugs* I know what you could have been thinking, if you're innocent.

However, I'm not particularly happy with the way you expect everyone to take your failure to save Lottie as proof of your innocence. It isn't. You ought to know that. You are not a known innocent, tp, and in fact I believe you have some explaining to do.

Also, the comments you make in that same post I quoted about Foley, Inzil, Shasta and Legate have something of a clutching-at-straws look– like you're trying to find any reason to suspect someone.

That said, I have my own doubts about Zil toDay, because of the way he keeps harping on the "why is phantom alive?" theme. If phantom's not an Elf, I could see the Elves going, "Ha, ha nice try! Let's kill someone else, then use his being alive toMorrow to frame him!".

EDIT:X'd since my last post.

[the phantom]

Purely voting-based reasoning-

Lommy- The first Lottie voter. Uses all three. This merits an automatic pass through today. She also doesn't need to be given any rep votes, as she's already proved herself with them. In later days if she's still around she will be a likely rallying point (a safe person to give rep votes to).

Wilwa- Instead of pushing Sally ahead or raising Boro up, she kept Lottie tied for the lead. Not as obvious as Lommy, but likely deserves a pass through today.

Phantom- Definitely could have saved Lottie by killing Sally, but didn't. Possibly could've saved Lottie by voting Boro before Izzy cast her vote (would she have wanted a double-lynch?). Definitely could've lynched an innocent Boro alongside Lottie, but didn't.

Celuien- Put Boro into serious contention. A more subtle way of saving Lottie than voting Sally perhaps?

Green- First to vote for Sally. If Sally is innocent, then this was likely the best play to save Lottie.

Nerwen- Puts Sally even with Lottie and starts the Boro voting, elevating two alternatives to Lottie at the same time.

Based purely upon voting Lommy obviously looks the best, followed by Wilwa and I, and then the other three could be spun to look suspicious. But of course I'm not factoring anything else into this.

[Nerwen]

And honestly I think it may have paid off either way. If I'm the Seer then obviously it worked.
I don't know what you're up to, phantom, but I repeat, I find it highly unlikely you're the Seer. I cannot believe a real Seer– even you– would make a completely pointless reveal on Day One. And don't say, "Ah, but it's what they least expected! See how cunning I am!":rolleyes: I don't understand why Seer-you would have any need to try a desperate double-bluff to cover yourself at that point.

If I'm not the Seer then I think I may have wasted some of the time they spent on deciding their kill,

If you're not the Seer, you've made a false reveal that might bring the real one out in the open– and again, for no good reason.

as Izzy was not definitively on board the Lottie-train so much as she was just the one who cast the final vote for her. I mean, what are the odds that Izzy would have happened to dream of the exact SoE who just happened to be on the chopping block at the end? No, no, there were other targets to go after besides Izzy.
Seers have dreamed of wolves on Night One. It's not that unusual. Plus, even if they didn't think she was the Seer, she was a nice logical kill-choice, as she'd made herself very hard to lynch by her role in killing Lottie. (Killing her, note, not just "failing to save her". There's a difference.) Like I said, she's the person I most expected to turn up dead in the morning.

Since you're here, Nerwen, why did you cast your votes for Sally and Boro?
Because I had to vote in a hurry, and I thought there was a good chance at least one of them was an Elf.

EDIT:X'd with tp.

[the phantom]

However, I'm not particularly happy with the way you expect everyone to take your failure to save Lottie as proof of your innocence. It isn't. You ought to know that.
And you ought to know that I don't let my partners die unless they have been outed by a revealed Seer. End of story. Sacrificing a teammate means surviving an extra day in order to win. My best bet has always been to not lose anyone. And heck, if you protect your partner half the village will think it's too obvious anyway, where as if you don't protect them you may well be suspected of throwing your partner under the bus. I protect my pack. Always have, always will. If Boro were still alive he'd definitely back me up on that one, having seen me work.
Also, the comments you make in that same post I quoted about Foley, Inzil, Shasta and Legate have something of a clutching-at-straws look– like you're trying to find any reason to suspect someone.
First, I never said I suspected Foley. She was on my "under the radar" list.

As far as clutching straws, I see that in fact I attributed a wrong post to Shasta, but actually doing so didn't completely change my attitude, as he was still definitely on the side of lynching Sally rather than Lottie.

But my points on Inzil and Legate- how are they clutching? I explained clearly my gripe with Legate- that he appeared to want his decision made for him (perhaps so he could use the excuse later "I couldn't help it"). And I also explained quite clearly that Inzil's suggestion of not voting was dangerous, and that he really didn't accuse anyone (he was too nice). And didn't I see that you suspect him too?

(x-post Nerwen)

[Nerwen]

And you ought to know that I don't let my partners die unless they have been outed by a revealed Seer. End of story. Sacrificing a teammate means surviving an extra day in order to win. My best bet has always been to not lose anyone. And heck, if you protect your partner half the village will think it's too obvious anyway, where as if you don't protect them you may well be suspected of throwing your partner under the bus. I protect my pack. Always have, always will. If Boro were still alive he'd definitely back me up on that one, having seen me work.
I'm sorry, phantom, this is just a case of "sez you". You have a nerve trying to paint yourself as a known innocent.

As far as clutching straws, I see that in fact I attributed a wrong post to Shasta, but actually doing so didn't completely change my attitude, as he was still definitely on the side of lynching Sally rather than Lottie.
Oh, I see. That's suspicious, but spending all Day defending a known wolf isn't? I say again: Sally and Lottie were both perfectly logical lynch-choices yesterDay.

But my points on Inzil and Legate- how are they clutching? I explained clearly my gripe with Legate- that he appeared to want his decision made for him (perhaps so he could use the excuse later "I couldn't help it"). And I also explained quite clearly that Inzil's suggestion of not voting was dangerous, and that he really didn't accuse anyone (he was too nice). And didn't I see that you suspect him too?
Yes, I do, but for different reasons.

[the phantom]

Nerwen- your constant desire to talk about whether or not I'm really the Seer is really... um... weird.

If I'm faking it, then obviously you should let me fake it and let the SoE believe it and kill me while the Seer continues to hide. If I'm not faking it, why in the world would you keep pestering me about it, almost as if hoping that I'll give away that it's a double bluff? Your focus on this serves no positive purpose whatsoever.
If you're not the Seer, you've made a false reveal that might bring the real one out in the open– and again, for no good reason.
Honestly. :rolleyes:

I'm looking at the player list, and I don't see any noobs on it. Who would counter-reveal in a situation like this? I mean, I'm not being the least bit destructive with my claim. I mean, heck, I'm not even demanding that you follow me or vote like me etc. I haven't repeated my claim since the day started either. Seriously, it's like you're begging for me to say too much or commit one way or the other, which a true Orc would know would serve no good purpose at all.

You are REALLY making me suspicious at this point.

(x-post)

[the phantom]

That said, I have my own doubts about Zil toDay, because of the way he keeps harping on the "why is phantom alive?" theme. If phantom's not an Elf, I could see the Elves going, "Ha, ha nice try! Let's kill someone else, then use his being alive toMorrow to frame him!".
I think it's extremely funny that this is why you suspect Inzil and yet you fit the profile of this idea far more than he does to this point.
I'm sorry, phantom, this is just a case of "sez you". You have a nerve trying to paint yourself as a known innocent.
I didn't say my vote made me innocent guaranteed. I at least had the decency to place myself in a lower category than Lommy. But sorry, I am going to point out obvious things about the voting that likely are important to anyone who is extremely familiar with my operations.

[Nerwen]

In case I haven't made myself clear: phantom, I don't like the fact that you're talking as though you're now completely cleared by the mere fact that you let Lottie die yesterDay. Oh yes: "If I were a wolf I wouldn't do that". How many times have we all heard that one?

Your apparent obliviousness to the actual situation makes me worry about you as much, or more, than anything that happened yesterDay– it makes me feel like you're hoping to quash suspicion by sheer force of personality. Which is something you might even be able to bring off, too.

I do not say you are an Elf, mind, tp. I say that you do not currently have the luxury of sitting back and giving your impartial opinion on everyone else from the lofty height of a known innocent. Not at all.

Again: what do you now think Lottie was up to, yesterDay, and why did you appear to trust her so completely, until late in the Day?

Again: why did you claim to be the Seer?

EDIT:X'd since my last post.

[Nerwen]

Nerwen- your constant desire to talk about whether or not I'm really the Seer is really... um... weird.

If I'm faking it, then obviously you should let me fake it and let the SoE believe it and kill me while the Seer continues to hide. If I'm not faking it, why in the world would you keep pestering me about it, almost as if hoping that I'll give away that it's a double bluff? Your focus on this serves no positive purpose whatsoever.

Honestly. :rolleyes:
Not honestly. If you're faking it you might be: a.) one of the SoE or b.) the Unknown Orc (having decided to take their side).

This is a very, very obvious point and again, your ignoring it does not make you look good.

[Nerwen]

In fact, phantom, your strategy so far appears to consist largely of the following:

Step 1. Do something suspicious.
Step 2. Claim it was all part of your cunning plan.
Step 3 (optional). Insist that only baddies would call your conduct into question, because everyone should know your plans are so very, very cunning.

Rinse. Repeat.

Ummm... you know what? Actually, I have no idea why a phantom-anything would do this.

[the phantom]

Okay Nerwen- you're done as far as I'm concerned. You're making no sense, and ignoring posts.

You just asked me yet another Seer question (Why did you do it, Phantom?). A question which was already answered completely and totally here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=639399&postcount=335). I mean, this is nothing new for me. I've done this exact thing before (in the last Rep game, in fact). If I'm faking, how are you helping the village by making it clear? If I'm the real thing, how are you helping the village by making it clear?

What you're doing can ONLY hurt this village, and I know that you know better, so I can only assume that you're not on my side. Possibly a bold SoE or maybe the newly evil Orc helper.

I shouldn't even bother talking with you any more. But because I'm a good sport-
Again: what do you now think Lottie was up to, yesterDay, and why did you appear to trust her so completely, until late in the Day?
If you will look back at post #72 I state quite clearly that my initial demand for votes had a chance of hooking a SoE, and the manner in which I described it fit with Lottie quite nicely. To anyone who was paying attention then, they would've known that already at that time I most definitely was not assuming Lottie was an Orc.

In post #200 I explain very clearly my defense of her, saying that I am NOT declaring her innocent, but rather I am suspicious of the reasoning that so many people jumped on.

Then in post #271 I say to Lommy that out of her suspects (Lottie, Sally, and me) I thought she had gone with the correct one, though I personally believed that she was doing so for the wrong reason (i.e. the correct reason in my mind was that she'd fallen into my little stunt, while with Lommy's reasoning I still thought that someone in her crowd was using fishy reasoning against Sally/Lottie, which is why I'm especially suspicious of anyone who suspected those two but put forth Sally as the correct choice).
If you're faking it you might be: a.) one of the SoE or b.) the Unknown Orc (having decided to take their side).

This is a very, very obvious point and again, your ignoring it does not make you look good.
But I'm not a SoE or a traitor orc, so what exactly do you want me to say about it? It's not a point that can be addressed in any way. The best I can do is point to my voting yesterday and offer that if I am a SoE then I'm a very dumb one, as at the very least I could've nabbed an innocent in the lynch alongside my packmate. What else is there to say?

But yeah, I'm pretty much writing you off at this stage. A true Orc would've looked at my Seer shout yesterday and kept their mouth shut about and just watched to see what happened. An Orc would've thought, "If he's for real then he's banking on them thinking it's a bluff. I'll keep my mouth shut, as I don't wish to out him. If he's an Orc then he's trying to mess with the night-kill and protect the Seer. I'll keep my mouth shut, as I don't wish to ruin the bluff. If he's actually a SoE then I suppose I'll just have to wait and see if he throws his weight around or leads us incorrectly and trust the real Seer will play it smart."

I just can't believe you're an Orc at this point.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

And look at that, we got a wolf. Color me surprised and excited.

Which had nothing to do with Phantom - I don't know why you're attributing it to him. Every single post you've made today strikes me as wolvish, dear Sally.

Also, does anyone else notice that any time someone questions Phantom too much, he ends up thinking they're a baddie? Nerwen has made several good points about your play so far, Phantom, and if I didn't have work in five hours I'd go through and point them out (again). That's something for tomorrow, I guess.

But in answer to your intimation that I would rather Sally have been lynched yesterday than Lottie - Yes, I would have. But Lottie being evil doesn't exonerate Sally in the slightest - in fact I'm more suspicious of her now than I was - so I don't see why you brought it up.

Good night.

[Nerwen]

I just want to revisit the Seer-question, because I don't think my first response quite covered the amount of sheer nonsense in that one post:

Nerwen- your constant desire to talk about whether or not I'm really the Seer is really... um... weird.

If I'm faking it, then obviously you should let me fake it and let the SoE believe it and kill me while the Seer continues to hide. If I'm not faking it, why in the world would you keep pestering me about it, almost as if hoping that I'll give away that it's a double bluff? Your focus on this serves no positive purpose whatsoever.
If you're an innocent faking it– though for the life of me I don't know why– the harm I'd do by getting you to admit it is minimal. Oh, look, the wolves get to cross one, highly unlikely person off the "Possible Seers" list. On Day Two in a large village. What a disaster.

If you were the Seer double-bluffing, clearly I'd be doing the village a service by convincing the wolves it wasn't so. Also, if you were the Seer, why would you even suggest that you might be double-bluffing? You know, like you just did?

I'm looking at the player list, and I don't see any noobs on it. Who would counter-reveal in a situation like this?
If you claim there is no real risk of a fake-reveal flushing gifteds out... well, then, obviously you haven't played many games of wer– oh, wait, you have.

Or do you say that your reveal was so obviously fake that the real Seer would know you couldn't be a baddie, and must be on the village's side. Then why did you make it?

I mean, I'm not being the least bit destructive with my claim. I mean, heck, I'm not even demanding that you follow me or vote like me etc. I haven't repeated my claim since the day started either. Seriously, it's like you're begging for me to say too much or commit one way or the other, which a true Orc would know would serve no good purpose at all.

You are REALLY making me suspicious at this point.
You revealed. There seems no good reason for it. That's enough. You were bound to be questioned over it, and you must have known this. You do have a nerve, mate!

EDIT:X'd since my last post.

[Nerwen]

*sigh*

Phantom, your latest post is just more of the same. I don't have anything to say to it that I didn't in my last one (that x-posted with yours). Except about the Lottie business. Yeah, you were all over the place about Lottie and Sally and what you were doing and what you thought they were doing yesterDay. Steve has already pointed out the timing-problem with your explanation that you were just trying to catch an Elf.

Been there, done that.

EDIT: name left out.

[Nerwen]

Which had nothing to do with Phantom - I don't know why you're attributing it to him. Every single post you've made today strikes me as wolvish, dear Sally.
*cough* I believe she's only made one post toDay, my treasure. It is, however, indeed quite a furry– or should I say pointy-eared– little performance.

But in answer to your intimation that I would rather Sally have been lynched yesterday than Lottie - Yes, I would have. But Lottie being evil doesn't exonerate Sally in the slightest - in fact I'm more suspicious of her now than I was - so I don't see why you brought it up.

Sally being innocent would go some way towards exonerating the phantom, though, wouldn't it? (Not entirely, however.) Could be why he's pushing it.

[the phantom]

If you're an innocent faking it– though for the life of me I don't know why–
So the SoE would kill me, duh. I mean, come on. Why else fake it? :rolleyes:
Oh, look, the wolves get to cross one, highly unlikely person off the "Possible Seers" list. On Day Two in a large village. What a disaster.
It IS a disaster!! After yesterday I had the possible Seers narrowed down to FOUR (Izzy was not one, btw). I imagine by the end of today I'll be able to cross off at least two more. Narrowing it down by one is a HUGE deal! I mean, what if it's narrowed down to two people- the real one and a fake one? That ONE extra person makes a massive difference!

Am I the only one taking the Seer seriously?! We only have ONE gifted! We should all be doing whatever we can to make it muddy for Seer-hunters, and what you've done today has not helped! I mean, at this point they have to pretty well know that it's not me, which absolutely sucks, because I was hoping to be night-killed! This is cutting into my sleep time and work time etc and I was hoping hoping to die early, but I hugely preferred to be night-killed as at least that would actually serve a purpose and help my side.
If you claim there is no real risk of a fake-reveal flushing gifteds out... well, then, obviously you haven't played many games of wer– oh, wait, you have.
It's all in the manner in which it is done, m'dear, and who else is in the village. I mean, can you imagine any one of the players here counter-revealing on Day 2 due to a throwaway comment at the end of Day 1 by a notoriously crazy player? Your fear of a counter-reveal is downright insane, and insulting to the intelligence of the remaining villagers. If I had any fear whatsoever of a counter-reveal, I wouldn't have done it.

Coming into today I actually didn't plan to so much as mention my final post from yesterday. I assumed most everyone would write it off except for perhaps, hopefully, the SoE. The last thing I expected was to have a couple people immediately jump up and down and point it out, because as I said earlier, doing so serves NO POSITIVE PURPOSE! I mean- what can bringing it up possibly accomplish? That is why I'm very suspicious of anyone harping on the point, but perhaps it is my mistake to assume that everyone else would think this matter through so carefully, as they are on the outside looking in so to say.

Yeesh. This feels like a repeat of the last Rep game. :rolleyes:

This is the way I assumed rational people would look at what I did-

1) If Phantom's an Orc, then his purpose is obvious and the best reaction to it would be not to ask questions about it and let him do his thing.
2) If Phantom is the Seer, then his purpose is obvious and the best reaction to it would be not to ask questions about it and let him do his thing.
3) If Phantom is a SoE, I can only assume he's trying to pass himself off as a self-sacrificing Orc, or paving the way for a future reveal. The best reaction would be to watch and wait to see what he does. I might want to question him about it, but given the odds are higher that it's one of the first two options the overall best bet would be to keep my mouth shut.

I mean, you do realize that the only reason we're talking about this is because you people won't let it go? It's an entirely useless discussion to have even started, and it's especially useless now that I've basically admitted I was totally faking it.

[Nerwen]

Phantom–

Yes, we only have one gifted. Therefore you, if innocent, had no business taking that risk. The rest is nothing.

Stop acting like you're some kind of special super-Orc whose actions should be above question. It is entirely normal and logical that I've been asking you about this, and don't think you're going to bluster your way out of it.

As for what you are– Morgoth only knows! Your performance toDay doesn't make that much sense for an experienced player in any role. However, I'm inclining more and more towards "guilty". (And, in that case, likely Sally's partner.)

If not, you're certainly not helping your side, the way you're acting. Can't you see that?

[the phantom]

Yes, we only have one gifted. Therefore you, if innocent, had no business taking that risk. The rest is nothing.
WHAT RISK??!!

The risk I would be killed in place of the Seer? I mean... what?

And don't even say, "Er, the Seer might've counter-revealed" because that would assume that the true Seer is an idiot. I've done several fake reveals in the past, and NEVER has one of them resulted in a counter-reveal. Why? Because I knew the situation and who I was playing with.

I say again- thinking that a throwaway Day 1 comment by a crazy bugger like me would prompt a reactionary reveal by our Seer is to think that your fellow villagers are idiots. You cannot justify your claim by saying, "There've been counters in other games!" This is me, in this game, with these people, at this precise moment. With me, in this village, at that time, there was not going to be a counter-reveal. End of story. I can't believe I'm even having to explain it.
It is entirely normal and logical that I've been asking you about this, and don't think you're going to bluster your way out of it.
It's only "normal and logical" in the sense that you are curious and want to know. Of course we're curious about each other's purposes and roles. But wondering about something doesn't mean that it is in the best interest of your team to wonder about it openly!

Have you still not grasped that your questioning of me was bound to from the very start yield nothing useful whatsoever? I mean- you've still never responded to this point that I've made again and again- the fact that from the start there was no point to you asking these questions. No matter what my role or motivation, talking about this gets us nowhere.
As for what you are– Morgoth only knows! Your performance toDay doesn't make that much sense for an experienced player in any role.
I've only had to give a performance today because YOU have chosen to travel down this pointless road.

If you want to take a look at how you should've done this thing, look at Inzil. Though I'm not completely happy that he even brought it up, he simply asked his questions and moved on, either because he gained what he wanted or because he knew that continuing to talk about it was without purpose. No additional info would be gained, and no help to the village would result.

You said yourself in your first post on the matter that my comment was obviously complete bunk, so tell me why have you insisted on filling up an entire page based upon a complete and total throwaway comment? This is a waste of everyone's time. Seriously, all you people reading this- I'm sorry these minutes of your life have been flushed down the drain.

[the phantom]

Okay, I really would like to sleep now. *yawns*

Nerwen- if you're an Orc then you seriously need to stop. Take a step back and just look at what I said and when I said it. My move was not at all risky and the motivation is obvious if I'm innocent, thus the act says nothing whatsoever as to my guilt/innocence. It is simply a matter of what you believe already.

If you think I'm guilty then you have to make your own explanation for why I did what I did.
If you think I'm innocent then you accept that I was trying to make myself a target, particularly since you know it is something I do regularly in other games. I mean- frankly I'd be suspicious of a non-gifted Phantom that didn't try to get himself night-killed. I LOVE being Wolf-killed as an Ordo.

It's one or the other. Either I'm good or bad. If I may be permitted to say so, if anything the act itself points to good since it's something good-Phantom does often for a known reason, where as I've never done so as a baddie and who knows what my purpose would be? But anyway, all you're managing to do is tick me off. If I don't sleep well tonight then don't be surprised if I'm in all caps insulting mode when I come in tomorrow.

[Nerwen]

Have you still not grasped that your questioning of me was bound to from the very start yield nothing useful whatsoever? I mean- you've still never responded to this point that I've made again and again- the fact that from the start there was no point to you asking these questions. No matter what my role or motivation, talking about this gets us nowhere.
Phantom, I don't know what you're doing, but I'm trying to hunt Elves. Therefore, following up odd behaviour has a point.

Quote= Me
As for what you are– Morgoth only knows! Your performance toDay doesn't make that much sense for an experienced player in any role.
I've only had to give a performance today because YOU have chosen to travel down this pointless road.
Read back over what you've said and what I've said. *sigh* I'm getting very tired of this myself, actually. It's starting to look like you're never going to give me a satisfactory answer, just it-was-all-part-of-my-plan-and-now-you've-spoiled-everything.

Really. If you're a true Orc, try and think about how this all looks to another innocent.

[A Little Green]

Funny part is, Lottie's post had an air of wolfishness to them but I didn't want to get on the thread and post anything because A: I wasn't very coherent, B: I didn't want to look like I was trying to save my hide, and C: I trusted Phantom to keep me around. Erm... what? I'm having a serious problem with this post. I'm debating which is more unlikely: an innocent Sally reasoning that way, or an opportunistic Sallyelf stating her reasoning that openly. Sally, my love, why if you're innocent would you refrain from stating your opinion only because not stating it kept you safe from suspicion?

Also, Sally's "Look I was right to vote phantom for rep, we got an elf!" is weird, considering that phantom had nothing to do with that lynch.
But in answer to your intimation that I would rather Sally have been lynched yesterday than Lottie - Yes, I would have. But Lottie being evil doesn't exonerate Sally in the slightest - in fact I'm more suspicious of her now than I was - so I don't see why you brought it up. I'm not sure about this. It would have been really bold from Lottielf to follow Sallyelf's rep vote so openly. Then again, I'm not sure of whether I've ever played with an evil Lottie before, so I don't know whether she would pull a stunt like that. On the other hand, I agree with you that Sally continues to look suspicious - maybe even more so than yesterDay. In fact, I find it rather scary how much I agree with you.
I wish I had six votes and could just slap them on Glirdan or Wilwa and get this over with.
Wilwa- Considering the number of posts I have basically no thoughts here. I'm leaning careful Ordo right this second, but I'm not convinced. What made you change your mind?
Also, don't make me a rep if you're inclined to extend innocence to me for not saving Lottie when I easily could have (by voting Sally or voting for Boro before Izzy cast her vote), or for not double-lynching an innocent Boro alongside her as I could have done.Speaking of that - I'm sorry if you've already explained this and I have missed it, but why didn't you vote yesterDay? As far as I've seen you have just given a lot of reasons why you would have voted had you been an elf.

I don't know what to think of the row between Nerwen and phantom, so I've decided to ignore it for the time being.

A sidenote. Lommy asked me to inform you guys that she will not be around much on the first half of the Day, but should be here normally on the second.

[Nerwen]

I'm not sure about this. It would have been really bold from Lottielf to follow Sallyelf's rep vote so openly. Then again, I'm not sure of whether I've ever played with an evil Lottie before, so I don't know whether she would pull a stunt like that.
Lottie's only been a baddie twice before, I think, but judging from her play then it's something she might do. Doesn't mean that's what happened, of course, but I don't think it would be out of character.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, I am now around, unfortunately I am afraid that my participation will once again be unluckily diminished due to unforseen RL way of things. I think I won't be around for most of the Day, but I want to show up at least surely closer to the end of the Day (several hours before DL) and re-read at least generally and vote and all. This is just a random occurance, I should be more active later on.

Izzy's death is sort of explainable, she was a Lottie-voter, aside from that, many people seemed to trust her. Lottie's wolvery is not such a big surprise either, and now if you ask me, I think that makes sally rather innocent. I'd like to take a better look at the way the Lottie-voters voted, but generally I think it might be a good indication of the peoples' innocence. It would be interesting to know how many Wolves might've been among the Representatives yesterDay.

As for phantom (tried to avoid that topic as long as I could, but alas! ;) ), with all the weird stuff, I find him more likely to be a mad bold ordinary person than anything else. Like with the yesterDay's stuff, he is bringing very much attention to himself, which would not do too well for a Wolf either. Although, on the other hand, I'd like to look at the timing of his Seer reveal - because now it had occured to me that if he was a Wolf, acting boldly, and then suddenly one of his teammates was about to be lynched, his boldness suddenly meant another possible threat to the WWs' team, so maybe he could try even more ridiculous move to save his skin by revealing as a Seer? If you know what I mean. But I think that would make more sense only if he revealed after it was clear that Lottie goes. Anyway, if it was not, I am more inclined to think him an innocent.

Legate- I'm really really back and forth on you. I found myself head-nodding with you much of the time, and your suspicions and defenses were well-balanced and such, but, BUT- there was one thing I didn't like about you, and that was the way you handled your rep vote. You really seemed to agonize over it in an odd way, as if you didn't want to make the choice or something. In 109 for instance it looks like you're setting up to later let your voting choice be made by others basically, and in 147/152 that is what in fact happens, yes? Basically in the end, your vote was the logical and only choice rather than your choice, and there's something dodgy about that. Am I off here?
Not sure if I get exactly what you mean by "agonizing", but basically, it was like this: I wanted to vote somebody of the people I listed who had already one vote, or then Foley. The problem was that she had no vote, and I did not want to cast a vote for her if nobody else voted her. I was waiting and asking for a response several times, it was late and I was rather tired and at the same time doing still other things before I go to sleep, so once in a while I just checked if somebody nodded to my idea. As nobody did for a long time, then I decided to go with Nerwen, and by that time, it turned out that anyway of the people I wanted to vote she basically remained like that. Yes, it was sort of relieving that the path was completely clearly shown by that, but I said earlier, I would've voted her probably anyway.

Not much time to post now anymore... might be that I will get a chance to pop in still early during the Day (or at least read, if not post, so that I can think of things), but not sure. Sorry for the now limited participation - like I said, will be back before the end of the Day, and then it should be normal again.

EDIT: x-ed since last phantom

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Just a quick point- I do not necessarily support giving voting power today to the people most likely to be innocent, particularly if they are likely innocent because they've already proven themselves with their vote as a rep. I would like to see new blood for the most part, while we have time. It will be more important at the end to hand power to the sure thing. Right now let's try and give others a chance in hopes that a couple of others can prove themselves as well, giving us a better chance of having someone trustworthy left alive at the finish.
I can actually follow this reasoning, at least at this stage in the game it could be useful. I might just cast my vote for a person I would like to know more about.



Anyway this Phantom vs. Nerwen business is starting make me feel sick and I have given up on taking proper notes. . . Is this a delusional power struggle or simply a massive case of over analysing each other?

Personally I am of the opinion that if a seer was to reveal his or hers true identity on the basis on a bluff like yesterday, then they deserve to get lynched for being bloody stupid.

Yes the Phantoms actions are often weird and sometimes makes you want to crush your own skull with a sledgehammer, but that is just something you have to get used to. Personally I do not believe half his tales about how cunning he is, but I don't find him overly suspicious and I definitely do not see it as being beneficial to spend the entire day fighting him.

[wilwarin538]

Just a quick point- I do not necessarily support giving voting power today to the people most likely to be innocent, particularly if they are likely innocent because they've already proven themselves with their vote as a rep. I would like to see new blood for the most part, while we have time. It will be more important at the end to hand power to the sure thing. Right now let's try and give others a chance in hopes that a couple of others can prove themselves as well, giving us a better chance of having someone trustworthy left alive at the finish.

I strongly agree with this.



Wilwa's latest comes across as highly defensive.


Right, defensive = evil, sorry, I forgot that as an innocent I should have no desire to remain alive. :rolleyes:



1. He's an Elf. Simple.
2. He's not an Elf, but, in direct contradiction of what she says here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=639037&postcount=36), she was confident of being able to manipulate him.
3. He's not an Elf, but she believed him to be the Unknown Orc, who had already decided to go over to the Elves (denies this here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=639041&postcount=40) and here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=639045&postcount=44)).


The third one is actually not a possibility, since the Unknown Orc only chose their side this past Night.



Anyway this Phantom vs. Nerwen business is starting make me feel sick and I have given up on taking proper notes. . . Is this a delusional power struggle or simply a massive case of over analysing each other?

Personally I am of the opinion that if a seer was to reveal his or hers true identity on the basis on a bluff like yesterday, then they deserve to get lynched for being bloody stupid.

Yes the Phantoms actions are often weird and sometimes makes you want to crush your own skull with a sledgehammer, but that is just something you have to get used to. Personally I do not believe half his tales about how cunning he is, but I don't find him overly suspicious and I definitely do not see it as being beneficial to spend the entire day fighting him.

I'm going to say a massive case of over analysing each other. And I agree with everything else you said. I really don't want this to take up the rest of the Day, it was a bluff, clearly, and it makes more sense to be an innocent bluff rather than a guilty one.

And I actually think that Lottie turning up guilty does make Sally look a bit better (though not all better, because her attributing Lottie's death to Phantom is weird, since he didn't vote and seemed to actually have been leaning towards a Boro vote (and may have voted him instead, if Izzy hadn't of voted)).

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nerwen
1. He's an Elf. Simple.
2. He's not an Elf, but, in direct contradiction of what she says here, she was confident of being able to manipulate him.
3. He's not an Elf, but she believed him to be the Unknown Orc, who had already decided to go over to the Elves (denies this here and here).
The third one is actually not a possibility, since the Unknown Orc only chose their side this past Night.
I know that. That's why I said "has already decided". Meaning that he could have decided to go over to the wolves on Day One, even before making a formal decision. Lottielf went to some trouble to discount this possibility, so it may be that's exactly what she thought was happening.

I'm going to say a massive case of over analysing each other. And I agree with everything else you said. I really don't want this to take up the rest of the Day, it was a bluff, clearly, and it makes more sense to be an innocent bluff rather than a guilty one.
Listen, my only intention here is make some kind of sense of the phantom-engima. If I keep poking at him, it's because he keeps thrashing madly when poked at– which naturally makes me wonder. I do not think it "makes more sense as an innocent bluff"– I've said why. I agree it shouldn't be the only thing we talk about, though.

And I actually think that Lottie turning up guilty does make Sally look a bit better (though not all better, because her attributing Lottie's death to Phantom is weird, since he didn't vote and seemed to actually have been leaning towards a Boro vote (and may have voted him instead, if Izzy hadn't of voted)).
Why do you think it makes her look better, Wilwa? I don't see that at all, myself.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Yes Wilwa's post explaining her motives was rather defensive, but I don't see this as a problem. I have often seen ordos becoming extremely defensive and this particular post seems rather innocent.

Maybe I am biased, because I share a few of Wilwa's views, like double lynch an al right alternative to a single lynch.


Also I should probably mention that even though I would love to receive a mandate from the masses, today is not a good day for me to be a representative. . . Unless you want a representative who show up drunk and makes a more or less random vote.

[Nerwen]

Yes Wilwa's post explaining her motives was rather defensive, but I don't see this as a problem. I have often seen ordos becoming extremely defensive and this particular post seems rather innocent.

Maybe I am biased, because I share a few of Wilwa's views, like double lynch an al right alternative to a single lynch.
While a double-lynch does increase the chance of getting a wolf, it almost amounts to writing off at least one innocent, since the odds are so much against bagging two wolves at once. And often you just ending up killing two innocents. So that's why they're unpopular. Nonetheless, I think the risk is acceptable on Day One in a large village– no, I don't see Wilwa's suggestion as evil.

Her defence toDay does seem a bit too jittery to me, though.

[A Little Green]

Not alarming (I hope there is no elves here because that would make me stupid; knowing how easily I am fooled, I'd be inclined to guess one here anyway :rolleyes: )
Foley - Just such good vibes from her. I'm very surprised if she's an elf.
Legate - Doesn't worry me too much. Feels genuine in his wishy-washiness, an elf I think would be more.. polished?
Lommy - She felt quite innocent to me even before the Lottie-vote. Hats off if she's an elf.
Nog - From the little I've seen I'm not too concerned.
Phantom - Hats off if he's an elf. I'm pretty convinced he is not. It's not only because of the "I'm the seer" -stunt, but also because of the general feel of his posts.
Rune - Again, such good vibes.
Shasta - I find myself agreeing with him so much that it borders on scary. And while I know he has fooled me brilliantly before (I recall promising, at least twice, never to trust him again) I'd be very surprised if he's an elf this time.
Vanilwa - Her defence seemed genuine, and I just generally like her.

Under the radar (Not surprised if there are one or two elves here, hopefully not three)
Celuien - I'd love a closer look, I'm feeling vaguely concerned right now but couldn't tell why.
Glirdy - Just quite frankly no idea. I'd love a closer look at him too.
Kath - Too little to go on.
Mira - I don't remember anything she's said, apart from voting phantom for rep. Somehow I doubt a Miraelf would have done that after Lottielf, especially if Sally is an elf too, but then again one can never be sure.
Steve - No read whatsoever. Might deserve a closer look too.
Zil - I've never known how to read him, and apparently still don't.

Makes me bang my head against the wall (I think there's at least one elf here)
Nerwen - Not necessarily because I find her elvish, though I wouldn't put that past her. Mainly because half her posts scream "Elf!" and the other half "Orc!"
Sally - Has been acting fishy. Like, very fishy. It's not only her hiding behind phantom yesterDay, but also her toDay's post (I quoted that in my previous one). I'm surprised if she isn't an elf.

[wilwarin538]

Why do you think it makes her look better, Wilwa? I don't see that at all, myself.

Well the way Lottielf voted for Phantom so early in the Day it almost seems like something she would have talked to the other SoE about during the Night, so for another SoE to also do it just seems strange. Also if Sally is an elf and voted like that, I don't know why her fellow elf would come on and vote the same right after, they must have known that would draw way too much attention to themselves, and I don't see them doing that. Like I said though, it doesn't make me feel fantastic about Sally, but I would still be a little surprised if she turned out to be an Elf.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

While a double-lynch does increase the chance of getting a wolf, it almost amounts to writing off at least one innocent, since the odds are so much against bagging two wolves at once. And often you just ending up killing two innocents. So that's why they're unpopular. Nonetheless, I think the risk is acceptable on Day One in a large village– no, I don't see Wilwa's suggestion as evil.

Her defence toDay does seem a bit too jittery to me, though.

I am completely aware of the dangers of the double lynch, but I do find it refreshing that there are other people than me who do not shun them as if they where plague infested.

About Sally, I am not quite sure what to make of her. I do think there is merit to Wilwa's thoughts, it would be very bold of two Elves to act in the manner Lottie and Sally did. So it does seem unlikely that Sally is an elf, but it is of course not impossible that SoE is extremely gutsy.

I will suply a full list of thoughts latter.

[satansaloser2005]

Again: what do you now think Lottie was up to, yesterDay, and why did you appear to trust her so completely, until late in the Day?

Again: why did you claim to be the Seer?

As for the seer bit, I would have done the same thing. In fact I did, last game, in order to save Skip. But I usually wouldn't do that if I didn't think the seer was in danger, or if I didn't have a darn good reason otherwise. So I don't know.

I suspect Phantom's just being very tricksy again. I do want to know why he didn't vote though, which I've likely missed because I'm still not totally awake. >.<

Which had nothing to do with Phantom - I don't know why you're attributing it to him. Every single post you've made today strikes me as wolvish, dear Sally.

I've only made the one post toDay, pet. Remember, the post where I said "I was ill but we got a wolf, yay!"? That one? How is that suspicious exactly?

Also, does anyone else notice that any time someone questions Phantom too much, he ends up thinking they're a baddie? Nerwen has made several good points about your play so far, Phantom, and if I didn't have work in five hours I'd go through and point them out (again). That's something for tomorrow, I guess.

But in answer to your intimation that I would rather Sally have been lynched yesterday than Lottie - Yes, I would have. But Lottie being evil doesn't exonerate Sally in the slightest - in fact I'm more suspicious of her now than I was - so I don't see why you brought it up.

Babe, you're not making sense. I understand your piece about Phantom, and agree with it actually, though that's just sort of who he is, but to say that you'd rather I was lynched than Lottie? You would have learned nothing. Well, you would have, in that an innocent would have been lynched and, when Lottie did get lynched and was proven guilty, you would have had a lot to look at in regards to the first Day. But saying "I wish we hadn't Fenris'd someone" is never okay to say. Never. Sure, say "We should lynch Sally and see what happens and what we can learn with both of them dead" but you can't say you'd rather I was dead than a proven elf. I can't understand why you would say this unless you were one too. Sorry, kid, but it's true.

Izzy's death is sort of explainable, she was a Lottie-voter, aside from that, many people seemed to trust her. Lottie's wolvery is not such a big surprise either, and now if you ask me, I think that makes sally rather innocent. I'd like to take a better look at the way the Lottie-voters voted, but generally I think it might be a good indication of the peoples' innocence. It would be interesting to know how many Wolves might've been among the Representatives yesterDay.

Finally. Someone who gets it. I plan to look long and hard at who voted (both for representatives and the lynch itself) whom and why.


Basically....Shasta looks bad to me, based on that post, and Legate sees sense on many a level, which unfortunately doesn't mean he's innocent. Nerwen looks rightfully innocently frustrated with Phantom, so I won't be wanting to lynch her toDay, but I don't want her as a representative either, as I don't want Phantom dead....yet, at least. ;)



Off to peruse page ten now.

[Nerwen]

Well the way Lottielf voted for Phantom so early in the Day it almost seems like something she would have talked to the other SoE about during the Night, so for another SoE to also do it just seems strange. Also if Sally is an elf and voted like that, I don't know why her fellow elf would come on and vote the same right after, they must have known that would draw way too much attention to themselves, and I don't see them doing that. Like I said though, it doesn't make me feel fantastic about Sally, but I would still be a little surprised if she turned out to be an Elf.


About Sally, I am not quite sure what to make of her. I do think there is merit to Wilwa's thoughts, it would be very bold of two Elves to act in the manner Lottie and Sally did. So it does seem unlikely that Sally is an elf, but it is of course not impossible that SoE is extremely gutsy.

Think again. First vote was cast by Sally. Second vote by Lottie– who is indeed "gutsy" and also– perhaps even more importantly– inexperienced as a wolf. Look at how Lottie played yesterDay– she was quite unprepared for the amount of suspicion her vote attracted, You see, your argument is coming close to saying that Lottielf wouldn't do something we know she did. That is, whether or not she voted right after her fellow, she did vote in a way that drew attention to herself, and in fact ended by getting lynched.

It could be that they had a plan to vote phantom into power, either because he's one of them, or because they thought they could manipulate and perhaps frame him, but that Lottie jumped the gun instead of leaving a decent interval before voting. It could be that there was no plan, but that Lottie decided to vote along with her mate anyway, because it was all a light-hearted early-Day-One party atmosphere and could be passed off as a joke.

It could be both Sally and phantom are completely innocent and Lottie was up to some scheme of her own.

Whatever. The point is, it's highly premature to discount Sally as a suspect based purely on what Lottie did.

EDIT:X'd with Sally herself.

[Nerwen]

As for the seer bit, I would have done the same thing. In fact I did, last game, in order to save Skip. But I usually wouldn't do that if I didn't think the seer was in danger, or if I didn't have a darn good reason otherwise. So I don't know.
I haven't forgotten last game– but that was such a different situation I didn't think it was even worth taking into account.

I am frustrated with phantom– less with the actual ploy, whatever it is, than with his attitude that nothing he does should be questioned.

Originally Posted by Shasticle
But in answer to your intimation that I would rather Sally have been lynched yesterday than Lottie - Yes, I would have. But Lottie being evil doesn't exonerate Sally in the slightest - in fact I'm more suspicious of her now than I was - so I don't see why you brought it up.
Babe, you're not making sense. I understand your piece about Phantom, and agree with it actually, though that's just sort of who he is, but to say that you'd rather I was lynched than Lottie? You would have learned nothing. Well, you would have, in that an innocent would have been lynched and, when Lottie did get lynched and was proven guilty, you would have had a lot to look at in regards to the first Day. But saying "I wish we hadn't Fenris'd someone" is never okay to say. Never. Sure, say "We should lynch Sally and see what happens and what we can learn with both of them dead" but you can't say you'd rather I was dead than a proven elf. I can't understand why you would say this unless you were one too. Sorry, kid, but it's true.
Er– hang on. I thought he meant, "YesterDay I would have rather Sally had been lynched", not "I now wish Lottie hadn't been lynched". You reckon that's what he meant?:eek:

[satansaloser2005]

The point is, it's highly premature to discount Sally as a suspect based purely on what Lottie did.

Heh. Agreed. You think I want no one suspecting me? That happens, I end up Night killed. No thanks. I'd rather be poked at here and there and stay alive. :rolleyes:

EDIT: x'd with another Nerwen! :)

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Think again. First vote was cast by Sally. Second vote by Lottie– who is indeed "gutsy" and also– perhaps even more importantly– inexperienced as a wolf. Look at how Lottie played yesterDay– she was quite unprepared for the amount of suspicion her vote attracted, You see, your argument is coming close to saying that Lottielf wouldn't do something we know she did. That is, whether or not she voted right after her fellow, she did vote in a way that drew attention to herself, and in fact ended by getting lynched.

Yet, there is a big difference from one SoE gambling on a day1, to two SoE doing it. I would never say that we wouldn't see a SoE acting very bold/inexperienced on day1, it has been seen many times before, but for them to openly team up in such a gamble is more unlikely.

[Nerwen]

Yet, there is a big difference from one SoE gambling on a day1, to two SoE doing it. I would never say that we wouldn't see a SoE acting very bold/inexperienced on day1, it has been seen many times before, but for them to openly team up in such a gamble is more unlikely.
Read my post again, Rune. The point is, Lottie's decision to vote phantom when she did might well have been something she decided for herself; therefore it doesn't tell us much about Sally.

[satansaloser2005]

I haven't forgotten last game– but that was such a different situation I didn't think it was even worth taking into account.

Fair enough. And in fact I was saying the same thing. I think it's perfectly logical to fake seer in order to save the seer or to put yourself in more danger in order to protect them, but I don't think Phantom had the reasoning or timing to do so.

I am frustrated with Phantom– less with the actual ploy, whatever it is, than with his attitude that nothing he does should be questioned.

Meh, understandable. I don't think he's a cleared innocent either, but I must say....I think him not voting may actually speak more to his innocence than if he had voted Lottie at Day's end. Shocking, you say? Scandalous? Not really.

Let's say Phantom is a SoB....erm, SoE. *headdesks, couldn't resist* Knowing that Phantom is a dirty, lowdown, double-crossing scumbag (with love, dear), he would likely be happy to vote for a packmate. It would make him look good, in fact. Thus, why wouldn't he just pile his votes on and say "look at me, I killed Lottie" and add to his train of Reasons Not to Suspect Phantom? It would make sense to do so, and while yes, some people would likely call him out and say "but you didn't kill her, in fact she was already dead before you voted", he would still look good to the masses, his "vote me and I won't vote you" pledge aside.

Basically, a wolf!Phantom would bus his packmate if he got the chance and it was really advantageous for him to do so. I'm not saying he would kill a packmate just because he fancied it, but I feel that he would double cross a fellow wolf/elf/thing if the situation had desired benefits. Especially if said packmate was already dead, or mostly dead, or whatever.

Granted, I'm not saying that I trust Phantom completely, because he could have thought of all the above beforehand and predicted that I (or someone else) would say this exact thing in his defense, but I think that voting for Lottie would have, in that case, looked actually worse than not voting at all.

Er– hang on. I thought he meant, "YesterDay I would have rather Sally had been lynched", not "I now wish Lottie hadn't been lynched". You reckon that's what he meant?:eek:

I think he meant a bit of both, at least subconsciously? I think he means that yesterDay he would have preferred to see me lynched, and he still feels that way toDay. More of a preference to having me dead than an outright attitude of "I wish Lottie was still alive", but the undertones -subtext, for Shasta's enjoyment- still remain the same. He wasn't happy with yesterDay's lynch, and that makes me nervous.


EDIT: x'd since my last, and attempting to fix all my bolding/italics because Chrome is hateful :(

[satansaloser2005]

Yet, there is a big difference from one SoE gambling on a day1, to two SoE doing it. I would never say that we wouldn't see a SoE acting very bold/inexperienced on day1, it has been seen many times before, but for them to openly team up in such a gamble is more unlikely.

Which is why it didn't happen. One elf, yes, two elves, no.

Read my post again, Rune. The point is, Lottie's decision to vote phantom when she did might well have been something she decided for herself; therefore it doesn't tell us much about Sally.

I think what you're saying is that Lottie could have jumped onto my vote without my consent or prior knowledge/planning. Yes?

[Inziladun]

But in answer to your intimation that I would rather Sally have been lynched yesterday than Lottie - Yes, I would have. But Lottie being evil doesn't exonerate Sally in the slightest - in fact I'm more suspicious of her now than I was - so I don't see why you brought it up.

I'm not sure about this. It would have been really bold from Lottielf to follow Sallyelf's rep vote so openly. Then again, I'm not sure of whether I've ever played with an evil Lottie before, so I don't know whether she would pull a stunt like that.

I've been leaning toward Lottie's Elvishness being a point in favor of Sally, since voting for the same rep so close together seems so reckless. It's possible they were mates, but it seems like a bold move, especially for a Day 1. I think it's nearly certain though that if Sally is another Elf, phantom isn't.

Speaking of that - I'm sorry if you've already explained this and I have missed it, but why didn't you vote yesterDay? As far as I've seen you have just given a lot of reasons why you would have voted had you been an elf.

I don't remember seeing his explanation for that, either. Could be another convoluted scheme of an orcish tp, or a move by an phantelf to avoid commitment.

Right, defensive = evil, sorry, I forgot that as an innocent I should have no desire to remain alive. :rolleyes:

That looks rather odd as well. There's certainly nothing wrong with defending oneself, but your response looked out of proportion to the situation.

Also I should probably mention that even though I would love to receive a mandate from the masses, today is not a good day for me to be a representative. . . Unless you want a representative who show up drunk and makes a more or less random vote.

Looks to me like you'd merely be on-par with the majority of world politicians.

x/d with Sally x 2

[the phantom]

*stumbles in yawning*
What made you change your mind? (regarding Wilwa)
A combination of the lynch yesterday and her explanation today. Also, as I may have mentioned earlier, I'm keen to give a one day pass to anyone who had some sort of hand in lynching Lottie, so for the purposes of today's exercises I may as well think of them as innocent and see where that gets me.
Speaking of that - I'm sorry if you've already explained this and I have missed it, but why didn't you vote yesterDay?
Because I thought it prudent to leave the lynch the way it was. And looking at the result, I'd have to say that I did indeed make the smart decision.
Although, on the other hand, I'd like to look at the timing of his Seer reveal - because now it had occured to me that if he was a Wolf, acting boldly, and then suddenly one of his teammates was about to be lynched, his boldness suddenly meant another possible threat to the WWs' team, so maybe he could try even more ridiculous move to save his skin by revealing as a Seer? If you know what I mean. But I think that would make more sense only if he revealed after it was clear that Lottie goes.
Concerning my timing, I revealed in the very last post of the entire day after all votes had been cast, therefore there was no chance at all that I was trying to impact the voting. I was watching my clock very carefully and I posted when I believed it to be under 15 seconds until the deadline.
Personally I am of the opinion that if a seer was to reveal his or hers true identity on the basis on a bluff like yesterday, then they deserve to get lynched for being bloody stupid.
Thanks lad. Exactly what I think. Oh, and sorry for making you want to crush your skull with a hammer. :p

Regarding Sally's guilt/innocence, I'm not convinced one way or the other, but as a logical starting point for today I would like to assume her innocence and see what conclusions that yields. If we hit dead ends, then we can revisit her.

[Nerwen]

I think what you're saying is that Lottie could have jumped onto my vote without my consent or prior knowledge/planning. Yes?
Exactly.

[satansaloser2005]

Exactly.

Just checking.

[satansaloser2005]

Okay, so we know Phantom's not the seer, because....well, he's not and stuff, so the reveal at the end of yesterDay was likely either to protect the seer (for which we should all thank him, because we love our seer, don't we?) or to make it look like he was so he could get a pass toDay. Really, though, I don't think he would do that as a wolf, at least not on the first Day and without at least some reasoning he could point at to avoid getting lynched. Besides which, this is getting him attention, which is what he wants more than most things in the world (apart from rep votes, of course, and that's mostly the same thing). So basically I don't think we should pay too much attention to it, at least not now.

You know what we should pay attention to? The vote count I'm about to make.

[Nerwen]

Okay, so we know Phantom's not the seer, because....well, he's not and stuff, so the reveal at the end of yesterDay was likely either to protect the seer (for which we should all thank him, because we love our seer, don't we?) or to make it look like he was so he could get a pass toDay. Really, though, I don't think he would do that as a wolf, at least not on the first Day and without at least some reasoning he could point at to avoid getting lynched.
This and your argument about phantom's failing to vote being a point in his favour are both too... conjectural for my taste. Too much depend on your ability to predict what he'd do.

Case in point:
he would likely be happy to vote for a packmate. It would make him look good, in fact. Thus, why wouldn't he just pile his votes on and say "look at me, I killed Lottie" and add to his train of Reasons Not to Suspect Phantom?
Funny thing is, though– phantom himself says earlier that he would never do that. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=639404&postcount=340)
You see, he argues that it's in his favour, too, but for the exact opposite reason.

Actually, there are a couple of points in his favour: one is the rather obvious one that what he did was practically a request to get himself dreamed. The other is more subtle and indeed tenuous – the way Lottie kept responding to questions about her own behaviour with defences of tp, though it's true the two were related– framing attempt? It's possible.

[Nerwen]

Anyway, let's get the voting started:

++Shasta for representative++

[satansaloser2005]

And may I ask: why Shasta?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

People I don't quite trust:

Greenie: Actually seems al right, I am definitely getting good vibes . . . she tends to make many lists. . . Yet I there is something not quite right. . . Garr i cannot put a finger on it. I will have to go over her posts later.
Glirdy; Doesn’t look too good. He is hardly around and doesn’t really commit himself. It seems like he is trying to stay out of the spotlight. . . Of course there is the chance that I am biased simply because he mentioned me as making him uneasy.
Sally: Acts in a way that is bound to attract attention and she hasn’t convinced me that she is a fellow orc. I would still be surprised if both Lottie and her turned out to be SoE.


People I feel somewhat al right about:

Lommy: Not only did I find her reasonable, but her voting was also in top class.
Phantom: Is acting like you would expect him to. . .or not to. . . He is being all Phantomish. He has his own reasoning and always ends up concluding that he a cunning and evil mastermind. But for all his tricks and weird reasoning, I have yet to see something that screams “pointy eared ladyboy”. He has been very nice to me in this game, which I don’t know if is good or bad, but for now I believe him innocent (of this particular crime. . . I still expect him to be the elusive dental floss thief?.
Shasta: At times he seems a bit too eager to point fingers, but in general his post has been rather concise and reasonable.
Foley: I like Foley’s posting even more than Shasta.
Vanilwa: I did not have much of an opinion about Wilwa during Day1, but today I think she has done a good job. I thought her “defensive” post about her reasoning was very sensible and I have a hard time seeing her being a SoE.
Nerwen: Nerwen is always tricky, her opinion is not easily swayed and if she spots a weakness in her opponents defence she attacks relentlessly as the red army during the Crimean offensive. I can follow her reasoning, although I do not agree with all her conclusions. . . she puzzles me, she always does. I would like to believe her innocent, but I am not 100% sure.



No proper opinion:


Zil: Seems helpful, I need to look over Zils posts again before saying any more.
Celuien; I think it is quite telling that I cannot remember a single thing said by Celuien in this game, but have to look through my notes and old posts.
Kath: Not around – Not good
Legate: He seems like his normal self. Dreadfully boring, but mostly sensible and harmless. . . and of course impossible to get a read on.
Mira: Very quiet – A definite improvement from her normally loud self.
Nog : He seems to act like he normally does, but has simply not been around enough for me to form a proper opinion.
Steve: Steve is one of the people I normally find suspicious, so it is actually an improvement that I don’t really have an opinion this time around. I might just vote for him as representative.



I hope I didn't leave anybody out or added someone that isn't in the game any more.


I will vote shortly and then I have places to be, so I will have to wait a bit before I look into the posts of Greenie and others.

[the phantom]

Some of you who haven't done so- any chance you could follow the example of Rune and Greenie and make a list in which you name every villager and give a short blurb about them, or at the very least place them into categories of suspicion?

And I cannot express how much I would like for everyone else to show up, particularly those whose participation was on the low end yesterday.

[Nogrod]

Finally around! I got the start of the Day to my memorystick earlier on the day at my mom's place and read it at home (to the end of the previous page). I hope I can switch to a place near the power-output before the charge runs out (so in the pub right now - and this being Saturday night, not the most peaceful environments for trying t think :rolleyes:).

So reading the rest now... but to be poked for sure.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I have got to run so here is the vote from the Runetopian jury.

++Steve for Representative

Call me an easily manipulated orc or whatever you please, but I want to see what he does with with the power.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

because I was hoping to be night-killed!
I call bulls- er, elf-dooky.

You cannot justify your claim by saying, "There've been counters in other games!" This is me, in this game, with these people, at this precise moment. With me, in this village, at that time, there was not going to be a counter-reveal. End of story. I can't believe I'm even having to explain it.
This is entirely contradictory to your previous actions. You were all too happy to point out earlier that I agreed with you about Day 1s in a previous game, so why you're suddenly so gung-ho about previous games not mattering is beyond me. Phantom, I think your entire problem is that you assume everybody is a clone of you and thinks the way you think.

It's only "normal and logical" in the sense that you are curious and want to know.
Incorrect. It is normal and logical that you are being questioned as a player, by another player, about your actions. It seems to me (and I think I've said this before) that everytime someone dares to question the great Phantom, you go into a frenzy of "you're an idiot if you question me"!

Lottie's wolvery is not such a big surprise either, and now if you ask me, I think that makes sally rather innocent.
Why do you think this, Legate?

Yes the Phantoms actions are often weird and sometimes makes you want to crush your own skull with a sledgehammer, but that is just something you have to get used to. Personally I do not believe half his tales about how cunning he is, but I don't find him overly suspicious and I definitely do not see it as being beneficial to spend the entire day fighting him.
I disagree with this wholly and completely. the phantom should not be getting a pass for being the phantom.

The third one is actually not a possibility, since the Unknown Orc only chose their side this past Night.
Incorrect. Just because the OoUA only made their alignment choice this past night, it doesn't follow that they hadn't already made their decision regarding what they were going to choose.

And I actually think that Lottie turning up guilty does make Sally look a bit better
Why do you think this, Wilwa? You're the second person now that's thought this and haven't given any reason for thinking so. I see you actually answered this in #366, though. However, all I've seen you say here is a lot of 'would-he-wouldn't-he', so I'm not really buying into it. Plus you seem to be wishy-washy on Sally here. "I don't feel fantastic about her BUT I would be surprised", etc.

If I keep poking at him, it's because he keeps thrashing madly when poked at– which naturally makes me wonder. I do not think it "makes more sense as an innocent bluff"– I've said why.
I agree with this statement.

Remember, the post where I said "I was ill but we got a wolf, yay!"? That one? How is that suspicious exactly?
If you really want me to dissect it for you... :rolleyes: Let me finish this post.

Babe, you're not making sense. I understand your piece about Phantom, and agree with it actually, though that's just sort of who he is, but to say that you'd rather I was lynched than Lottie? You would have learned nothing. Well, you would have, in that an innocent would have been lynched and, when Lottie did get lynched and was proven guilty, you would have had a lot to look at in regards to the first Day. But saying "I wish we hadn't Fenris'd someone" is never okay to say. Never. Sure, say "We should lynch Sally and see what happens and what we can learn with both of them dead" but you can't say you'd rather I was dead than a proven elf. I can't understand why you would say this unless you were one too. Sorry, kid, but it's true.

Elfy, elfy, elfy! You're completely misrepresenting me here - I said "would have", past tense, so the fact that you're suspecting me for allegedly saying "I wish we'd lynched Sally rather than Lottie" goes flying out the window right there. This looks a lot like the chainsawing phantom did earlier.

It could be that they had a plan to vote phantom into power, either because he's one of them, or because they thought they could manipulate and perhaps frame him, but that Lottie jumped the gun instead of leaving a decent interval before voting. It could be that there was no plan, but that Lottie decided to vote along with her mate anyway, because it was all a light-hearted early-Day-One party atmosphere and could be passed off as a joke.

I think the second is more likely than the first, to be honest. I think Lottie's probably smarter than to make such a mistake. The second scenario, however, seems likely to me.

Er– hang on. I thought he meant, "YesterDay I would have rather Sally had been lynched", not "I now wish Lottie hadn't been lynched". You reckon that's what he meant?
*falls into a cloud of utter bliss*

I think he meant a bit of both, at least subconsciously? I think he means that yesterDay he would have preferred to see me lynched, and he still feels that way toDay. More of a preference to having me dead than an outright attitude of "I wish Lottie was still alive", but the undertones -subtext, for Shasta's enjoyment- still remain the same. He wasn't happy with yesterDay's lynch, and that makes me nervous.

*buzzer sound* Eeeeeghhh, wrong, and now you're just trying to paint me in a bad light to save your own skin. It's pretty clear that I was after both you and Lottie to be executed yesterday - I wanted you over Lottie since she had subsequently defended herself and you had not (to my satisfaction).

Funny thing is, though– phantom himself says earlier that he would never do that.
You see, he argues that it's in his favour, too, but for the exact opposite reason.

No fair. I was going to point this out. :(.

I'm sure I'm Celuien-ing with a host, aren't I.

[wilwarin538]

Ok, a list. Now I`m not really thinking too much about suspects right now, just who I want to vote as Rep, the suspects will come in the second half of the day.

Would be willing to vote for Representative

Because I trust them:

Celuien
Foley
Greenie
Legate
Nog
Rune
Lommy

Because I'd be curious what they do:

Kath: since she hasn't been on much, being a rep might get her to participate more
Mira: ditto
Shasta: because I'm really neutral about him, and I'm curious (basically because of Phantom's idea, we can put the people we trust into power later, now we should pick the ones we're unsure of)
Steve: ditto
Inzil: ditto

Would likely not be willing to vote for Representative

Nerwen: uhm, because I don`t trust her, but I wouldn`t say I`m neutral about her either, so I guess I`m leaning more to slightly suspicious, this is almost purely based on my interpretation of her tone and just some gut feelings
Phantom: he confuses me, and yesterDay he was rep and didn't vote, which seems like a waste to me, and I just don't want to
Sally: because she's way too unpredictable, and I don`t totally trust her at the moment


So I`m not really suspicious of too many people, but there are a lot that I trust, so likely I`ll vote for someone in one of my first two lists, I`m more leaning towards one of: Foley, Nog, Rune, Kath, Shasta or Steve.

x'ed with Shasta

[wilwarin538]

Plus you seem to be wishy-washy on Sally here. "I don't feel fantastic about her BUT I would be surprised", etc.

Yep, I totally am, I am utterfly confuzzled by her, same with Phantom. Sometimes I feel like they make sense, then the next second I have no idea what's going on with them.

[Nogrod]

Got a place beside a power-outlet...

Okay. It's D2 and after Lottielf's death we have a good reason to believe Sally is not an elf. I do agree with Nerwen that it is possible she is - like it is possible anyone of us is - but this is not the reason to lynch her because the odds are against her being an elf. And unlike with many others with whom we only have these ideas like "he could be a submarine-elf" or "she might have acted like that as an elf", with Sally we have the fact that an elf went in concord with her that openly in the beginning of the Day. That two elves did that is more improbable than any of our "could be's" or "might have's".

Although I must admit that everytime Sally opens her mouth I feel like suspecting her against the "facts".

Also, I think the phantom is innocent - and is no seer. If he wasn't dreamt of yet by the seer then now he is. So let's leave him be. Also, if I'm right in what he is doing he makes perfect sense in his own way we all should be used to. :)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Trust Implicitly:
Shasta - Because he's a handsome devil who knows what he's talking about, of course.

Feel Okay About:
Folwren - Her suspicions yesterday seemed to be both genuine and correct.
Greenie - I agree with her almost as much as she seems to agree with me!
Lommy - A lot of gut on this one, to be sure, but her stance on Phantom yesterday seems to align with mine right now.
Nerwen - Probably my biggest innocent read at the moment, I agree with her like Greenie agrees with me.

No Real Read:
Celuien - Haven't seen enough.
Glirdan - See Celuien.
Kath - See Glirdan.
Mira - See Kath.
Steve - Nothing he's said thus far really stands out to me one way or the other.
Inzil - See Steve.
Wilwa - Wilwa is here because I'm getting about an equal amount of positive and negative vibes from the things she's been saying. I'll withhold judgment on her for now.

Slightly Suspicious:
Legate - I'm getting a bit of wishy-washy tone from his posts, and what seems to me to be a lot of opinions that aren't backed up by anything.
Nogrod - Could almost be put into the same category as Celuien et. al., but there are one or two things he's said that give me pause. I'll go back and find them here in a bit.
Rune - After attributing a post of Folwren's to him yesterday, I went back and looked, and Rune doesn't appear to be as squeaky clean as I thought he was previously. There's just a hint of a villainous tone in his posts, I think. I don't really have much to back up this one.

Pointy-Eared Freaks
Sally - Her rep vote yesterday reeks, and today she's been using flawed points to try and paint me as a baddie to save her own skin.
Phantom - I've actually been entertaining the theory that Phantom is the OoUA, Elf-sided, especially since Lottie was lynched first. But in either case (baddie-aligned orc or elf), I agree with a lot of Nerwen's posts about him, and will add the fact that he seems unnaturally defensive whenever he's addressed.

[Nogrod]

phantom: Just a question. What if your initial premise is wrong? I'm somehow getting more and more worried it might be... I mean you have a decent quess there but the world might work differently.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Got a place beside a power-outlet...

Okay. It's D2 and after Lottielf's death we have a good reason to believe Sally is not an elf. I do agree with Nerwen that it is possible she is - like it is possible anyone of us is - but this is not the reason to lynch her because the odds are against her being an elf. And unlike with many others with whom we only have these ideas like "he could be a submarine-elf" or "she might have acted like that as an elf", with Sally we have the fact that an elf went in concord with her that openly in the beginning of the Day. That two elves did that is more improbable than any of our "could be's" or "might have's".

Although I must admit that everytime Sally opens her mouth I feel like suspecting her against the "facts".

Also, I think the phantom is innocent - and is no seer. If he wasn't dreamt of yet by the seer then now he is. So let's leave him be. Also, if I'm right in what he is doing he makes perfect sense in his own way we all should be used to. :)

1. As has been stated, Lottie's vote doesn't really tell us much about Sally and there's no reason to think they weren't elves together. Plus Sally's first post of the day stinks of elvish soap.

2. Unless you're the Seer (which I doubt), you (obviously) can't know what the Seer's dream was last night. In fact, given that Phantom didn't go through his "lol guys I was just kidding" song-and-dance yesterday before Night fell, I'd argue that the Seer probably didn't dream Phantom - what Seer dreams of someone who is, to them, already confirmed to be lying? The way you are in favor of just giving Phantom a pass today strikes me as suspicious, and makes me think worse of you.

[satansaloser2005]

Elfy, elfy, elfy! You're completely misrepresenting me here - I said "would have", past tense, so the fact that you're suspecting me for allegedly saying "I wish we'd lynched Sally rather than Lottie" goes flying out the window right there.

Oh. Oh. Apologies, dear. I misunderstood your "I wish we'd have killed Sally and we still should" as "I wish we'd have killed Sally and I wish we'd done it yesterDay". Forgive me? :confused:

*buzzer sound* Eeeeeghhh, wrong, and now you're just trying to paint me in a bad light to save your own skin. It's pretty clear that I was after both you and Lottie to be executed yesterday - I wanted you over Lottie since she had subsequently defended herself and you had not (to my satisfaction).

No, as mentioned above, it was a misinterpretation. And you do have to admit that you looked unhappy about the results of the lynch, at least in a way.

Also, your reasoning, it fails. Lottie didn't defend herself, she defended Phantom. And I....I wasn't even here. You knew this. Yet you still say that you preferred me, someone who wasn't here to say anything on her behalf, to someone who did have the chance and didn't say anything particularly helpful? What if I'm the seer? What if you had gotten your wish, and I would have been killed yesterDay rather than Lottie? Would you be happy about testing your suspicions then? I don't think so. Or maybe you would be. Maybe I'm right after all. Either way, you need to either be consistent and accurate in your opinions and reasoning or you need to be lynched for spinning a case against me that isn't correctly founded.


Also, in regards to Nog's post below, I concur (on the Phantom bits). I'm not saying that I understand him, I'm saying that I can see reasoning for why his actions wouldn't be those of a wolf. Thus, for now, I want him alive.


EDIT: x'd since Nog's 391

[satansaloser2005]

For those who don't have time to read Shasta's list in full....

Innocent: Anyone who agrees with him
Undecided: People who haven't specifically agreed/disagreed with him....yet
Guilty: People who don't buy all his rubbish

Seriously, he even says that's his reasoning for who he trusts. Read the post.

Foley seems correct? How would you know if her suspicions are correct unless you know everyone's roles? There's no other way to know if someone is "correct", and if you know roles you're either the seer (who can't possibly know enough roles to make this kind of judgement) or a son of an elvish trollop. So....that leaves?

[the phantom]

because I was hoping to be night-killed!
I call bulls- er, elf-dooky.
Why?! It's exactly what Ordo-Phantom is ALWAYS hoping for! If I get Night-killed when there are gifteds still around I'm able to laugh and say with pride, "Ha! You killed the wrong person! Fooled you!"
You cannot justify your claim by saying, "There've been counters in other games!" This is me, in this game, with these people, at this precise moment. With me, in this village, at that time, there was not going to be a counter-reveal. End of story. I can't believe I'm even having to explain it.
This is entirely contradictory to your previous actions. You were all too happy to point out earlier that I agreed with you about Day 1s in a previous game, so why you're suddenly so gung-ho about previous games not mattering is beyond me.
My reference of you to a previous game was regarding an issue of overarching playing philosophy (the randomness of Day 1s). Core Werewolf beliefs are less likely to change game to game.

My point to Nerwen about other reveals in other games not mattering was regarding an issue of precise timing and persons involved. My point was that in this village at this time with this set of villagers there was zero chance of a counter-reveal.
I do not think it "makes more sense as an innocent bluff"– I've said why.
I agree with this statement.
How can you agree with this when I have so completely trashed the notion? How does my bluff not make sense as an innocent?
FACTS:
1) I've done this exact thing multiple times as an innocent.
2) I did so at a time in which I was clearly not trying to influence the vote.
3) There was no negative risk whatsoever.

It makes perfectly obvious sense, and I'm getting sick of saying it. The only way it wouldn't make sense is if you're clinging to the idea of wanting me to be guilty and blinding yourself to logic.

The only thing about me you are right about is your point at the end, where Nerwen points out to Sally that I had specifically said the opposite of what Sally claimed.

[Eönwë]

Finally managed to catch up properly.

And if you're inclined to extend innocence to Wilwa for her one vote on Lottie, you wouldn't want to vote her for rep either.I personally think that makes her more suspicious, because if she was an elf she'd be voting for her packmate, which makes her look better, but because she only used one vote out of the two, she could've just been trying to look good while not decisively trying to lynch her, which would be a good cover for an Elf.

Phantom- Definitely could have saved Lottie by killing Sally, but didn't. Possibly could've saved Lottie by voting Boro before Izzy cast her vote (would she have wanted a double-lynch?). Definitely could've lynched an innocent Boro alongside Lottie, but didn't.
Looks like you're trying too hard.

If you were the Seer double-bluffing, clearly I'd be doing the village a service by convincing the wolves it wasn't so. Also, if you were the Seer, why would you even suggest that you might be double-bluffing? You know, like you just did?
So that the wolves would think that.

[Eönwë]

Basically, I'm not sure what to think about the phantom-Nerwen argument, but there's something about it that makes me think that they're both on the same side. Either they're fighting Orcs, or both very cunning Elves trying to dominate the Day by confusing all of us. And since they're both very experienced and cunning players, I wouldn't put it past either of them.

Though, obviously, the most probable option is that they're both Orcs that just don't agree (as we know happens so often).

[Nogrod]

1. As has been stated, Lottie's vote doesn't really tell us much about Sally and there's no reason to think they weren't elves together. Plus Sally's first post of the day stinks of elvish soap.
Lottie's vote doesn't prove Sally is innocent.That I can agree with. And it is possible they are both elves - like it is more or less possible anyone of you guys are. But two elves boldly voting in similar way in the beginning is much more improbable than Lottie just trying to sail on an easy banter-vote (and how wrong she was!). If they both were elves there would have been a thought of carefulness because of the mate, because of the possible pairing in the eyes of others...

And anyway, what I'm saying was and is that the above makes it more improbable Sally is an elf, not that she couldn't be one. Her posting looks suspcious toDay, I said it already myself on my previous post, but not so much as to overdo the sheer probabilities.

2. Unless you're the Seer (which I doubt), you (obviously) can't know what the Seer's dream was last night. In fact, given that Phantom didn't go through his "lol guys I was just kidding" song-and-dance yesterday before Night fell, I'd argue that the Seer probably didn't dream Phantom - what Seer dreams of someone who is, to them, already confirmed to be lying? The way you are in favor of just giving Phantom a pass today strikes me as suspicious, and makes me think worse of you.phantom's actions just cry for the seer to dream of him. And looking at the mess he has managed to make - two Days more or less talking only about him - would make the seer more or less irresponsible if s/he didn't dream of him and check him.

If you think you are bored to talk about tp then let him be and leave him to the seer.


EDIT: X'd from Shasta onwards...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs610.snc4/59027_160786700598400_100000012124034_508639_20879 57_n.jpg

Glirdan has died of a broken heart (caused by scheduling issues that have deprived the village of his wonderful self). He was an ordo.

If I have to modfire anybody else, I'ma mass murder the lot of you, declare myself winner, and pout for a very long time. All y'all stop having to drop out mah game!

[Eönwë]

So phantom, why didn't you vote?

And saying "in order to allow Lottie to be lynched" is not a satisfactory answer. If you are an Orc and truly believed her to be an Elf, it would've made sense to vote her as well (though it might have looked as though you were an Elf just attaching yourself to her death which was already happening, but if you're an Orc then that shouldn't matter because it's more important to lynch Elves than save yourself from possible future accusations). And the other option would be to vote someone else, which would either be a throwaway vote (Which would look suspicious), or could take someone else down too (Which could also look suspicious, as though you want to take an innocent down as well as one of your fellows, if you were an Elf.)

Anyway, my point is that whatever you would've voted would've most likely been criticised or at least questioned in some way, but not voting at all is even worse, because it makes it look as if you don't want to do anything objectionable. It even looks- dare I say it- "careful".

So why choose to vote for no-one when as an innocent Orc it would've been better to vote for who you found suspicious (or at least attempt to get someone lynched)?


I actually suspect that if the phantom does have a special role, he's the Undecided Orc who decided to leave his record clean yesterDay so that he could choose without implications in the Night. And anyway, he's been trying to prove that he's innocent since the beginning, which would be beneficial to have the rest of us believe whatever role he chose to take.


Hm... this musing seems to have ended up a bit longer than expected, but still, "I thought it prudent to leave the lynch the way it was" is no excuse to just purposefully not commit yourself to a vote when you were chosen as a carrier of votes.


edit: x-ed with Moddess Feanorc. What's happening in this game?

[satansaloser2005]

Fea:

I'm laughing so hard I'm crying. Or crying so hard I'm laughing. Whatever.


I need to grab some early grub and poke at the thread a bit. Back soon.

[Eönwë]

I'd like to look at the timing of his Seer reveal - because now it had occured to me that if he was a Wolf, acting boldly, and then suddenly one of his teammates was about to be lynched, his boldness suddenly meant another possible threat to the WWs' team, so maybe he could try even more ridiculous move to save his skin by revealing as a Seer? If you know what I mean. But I think that would make more sense only if he revealed after it was clear that Lottie goes.

This is a very good point. He posted that after he knew that Lottie was lynched. And knowing the phantom, a stunt like that wouldn't be too unlikely if he felt in danger.

Also I should probably mention that even though I would love to receive a mandate from the masses, today is not a good day for me to be a representative. . . Unless you want a representative who show up drunk and makes a more or less random vote.
That seems about right. :p

Well the way Lottielf voted for Phantom so early in the Day it almost seems like something she would have talked to the other SoE about during the Night, so for another SoE to also do it just seems strange. Also if Sally is an elf and voted like that, I don't know why her fellow elf would come on and vote the same right after, they must have known that would draw way too much attention to themselves, and I don't see them doing that. Like I said though, it doesn't make me feel fantastic about Sally, but I would still be a little surprised if she turned out to be an Elf.
They may have thought it would be a great way to deflect suspicion. It's so obviously suspicious that maybe the hoped that no-one would vote for them. Of course, if that was their plan, it failed miserably, but with one dying it would make the other seem less suspicious, which is why I think we definitely shouldn't cross Sally off the "Suspicious" list.

[Nogrod]

It's once again getting late for me and I need to start thinking about my choice for representative.

Actually I would have loved to see Rune as one but if he's going to be drunk and not able to read the whole thread then I'll pass him. If someone already has the "alibi" of making his decision in random there's little to read on that the next Day.

I might go for Legate. He seems observant enough to see what is going on but it's still hard for me to get a proper read on him. Although as a European he will probbly need to vote a bit early as the DL is just plain crazy here (4am in Finland).

Or I could go for Lommy as I tend to trust her both for her vote (it would have been crazy for an elf to cast that number of votes on a fellow) and her frustrations felt genuine.

Needs to think and to check the situation.


EDIT: What? Glirdy drops off as well! Hey guys, stop dropping off!!!

[A Little Green]

All right. I need to vote and then give the internet over to Lommie. I really like the idea of voting some enigmas for reps toDay, and this fellow is certainly one (while being also an intelligent and relatively active player), so I'm following Runne's lead on this one:

++ Steve for rep

I'm still suspicious of Sally - I totally get the argument for her innocence, but her every post screams elf. I'm quite convinced now that Shasticle is innocent. I'm also liking Rune and if not quite liking then at least more or less finding phantom innocent. It's Day 2 and I'm still not suspecting Nog (!!!), wonder if that's because he's actually an elf this time! :p

Also, what's this with all these modfires? :confused:


EDIT: x-ed with Noggins

[Nogrod]

I'm still suspicious of Sally - I totally get the argument for her innocence, but her every post screams elf.Welcome to the club!

It's Day 2 and I'm still not suspecting Nog , wonder if that's because he's actually an elf this time! :p(!!!)I could actually return the amazement... and the implications. :rolleyes:

[the phantom]

phantom: Just a question. What if your initial premise is wrong? I'm somehow getting more and more worried it might be... I mean you have a decent quess there but the world might work differently.
Oh, I'm well aware that it may be different, but it may prove helpful in the end supposing that I am looked to for information when it comes killing-time during the night, if you take my meaning.
So phantom, why didn't you vote?
Already explained that one, m'lad. I didn't think Lottie was a bad choice, and certainly not to the point where I'd lynch Sally over her, never mind my promise not to vote for either of them as they had voted me as their Rep. And then Boro- I was definitely not confident enough to risk a double-innocent lynch.

In the end, it's the result that counts anyway, and a SoE died while an Orc did not (yes, I realize Shasta and others will absolutely hate me for saying that as if I'm tooting my own horn). :p ;)

And pleeeeeeeeeeease no one else drop out!!! After Boro and Glirdan falling by the wayside we now have one less day to find the SoE.

[Inziladun]

Finally home and got a minute or two free.

Green Category (not worried about ATM)

Lommy- Hasn't been around toDay, but giving the first three votes to Lottie, along with saying nothing particularly Elven, puts her here.

Nog- Not around much, which makes me a bit nervous, but what's he's said seems innocent enough.

Greenie- Nothing to ping the Elfdar. Didn't vote for Lottie, but I thought Sally was a reasonable choice at that time.

Eönwë- Made sense yesterDay, and I see no reason to distrust him.

Rune- Nothing odd jumps out.


Yellow Category (trying to keep an eye on)

Nerwen- I do like the way she's held tp's feet to the fire, but it strikes me that she called it 'harping' when I made two posts about the same issue.

Sally- Like Nog said, reason tells me she's unlikely to be an Elf, but I still don't much trust her.

Shasta- It's not so much what he's said; just that he seems very aggressive early on.

Legate- He's always a tough one for me to get a handle on, and this time he seems a bit more subdued than I remember.

Cel- Voted for Boro on a "gut feeling", which could easily have been an attempt to save Lottie. Hasn't been here toDay.

Gray Category (ambiguous)

Folwren- Seems different from the last time I played with her, but I don't know if it means anything.

Mira- Gave tp his third vote, apparently as a joke. I didn't find it that amusing, but she hasn't been around nearly enough to look at her in any detail. If nothing changes, could go to the 'Yellow" list toMorrow.

Kath- She's playing?

Glirdan- Hasn't been around much. I can't really remember anything in particular he's said or done.

Red Category (don't trust at all)

phantom- I don't know what he would look like as an Elf, but I wouldn't put anything past him. He may not be an actual Elf, but I'm inclined to wonder if he's not indeed the OoUA who chose the Elves, and is doing all he can to divert attention to himself.

Wilwa- Split her votes for Lottie and Sally, tying them, which alone would not be enough to put her here. But I also don't like the defensiveness I've seen toDay.

x/d with all since # 395.

[Nogrod]

++Legate for representative

Here're the votes thus far for representatives.

Nerwen for Shasta (1)
Rune for Steve
Greenie for Steve (2)
Nogrod for Legate (1)

I think more or less the same principles should apply toDay as on D1 - let's not make a kalif or czar of anyone but let's aim for a large number of representatives with more or less similar powers. And let's try to balance between those we feel good or okay about and those we'd love to see more of, thus trying to maximise information on people we can't form an opinion on and the possibility of getting an elf lynched instead of an orc.

I'll (hopefully) be around a bit more tomorrow. Let's see a pack of representatives emerging from the voting!

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Also, your reasoning, it fails. Lottie didn't defend herself, she defended Phantom. And I....I wasn't even here. You knew this. Yet you still say that you preferred me, someone who wasn't here to say anything on her behalf, to someone who did have the chance and didn't say anything particularly helpful?
I find it very interesting that you're trying to make you look bad for suspecting you even through your absence, yet you haven't mentioned anyone who's suspected Glirdan, even though he was arguably around less than you before his untimely demise.

What if I'm the seer? What if you had gotten your wish, and I would have been killed yesterDay rather than Lottie? Would you be happy about testing your suspicions then? I don't think so.
What if the sky turns green and pigs start flying? What if there's no real purpose to this accusation other than the fact that it looks like you're accusing? But to answer anyway - you aren't the Seer. You wouldn't have been so irresponsible yesterday if you were.

For those who don't have time to read Shasta's list in full....

Innocent: Anyone who agrees with him
Undecided: People who haven't specifically agreed/disagreed with him....yet
Guilty: People who don't buy all his rubbish

Seriously, he even says that's his reasoning for who he trusts. Read the post.

For those who don't have time to read this post, this is just more Sally taking everything I say out of context as per usual in an attempt to make herself look better. :rolleyes: Folwren suspected both you and Lottie yesterday, I believe, and was correct on Lottie, which is clearly what I meant, so this -
Foley seems correct? How would you know if her suspicions are correct unless you know everyone's roles?
- is just silly.

Why?! It's exactly what Ordo-Phantom is ALWAYS hoping for! If I get Night-killed when there are gifteds still around I'm able to laugh and say with pride, "Ha! You killed the wrong person! Fooled you!"
Call me crazy, but dying isn't high on ANYONE'S wishlist. Otherwise they wouldn't have signed up for the game in the first place. :p

My reference of you to a previous game was regarding an issue of overarching playing philosophy (the randomness of Day 1s). Core Werewolf beliefs are less likely to change game to game.

My point to Nerwen about other reveals in other games not mattering was regarding an issue of precise timing and persons involved. My point was that in this village at this time with this set of villagers there was zero chance of a counter-reveal.
If every single villager was a carbon copy of you, maybe. Let me repeat - you are not telepathic. You are not in everyone's heads. You cannot speak for everyone and the fact that you're trying to is insufferably arrogant (which you haven't actually been for a while).

How can you agree with this when I have so completely trashed the notion? How does my bluff not make sense as an innocent?
FACTS:
1) I've done this exact thing multiple times as an innocent.
2) I did so at a time in which I was clearly not trying to influence the vote.
3) There was no negative risk whatsoever.

1) That does not preclude you from doing it as a baddie.
2) So?
3) Except for... the part where... there totally... was? :confused:

phantom's actions just cry for the seer to dream of him. And looking at the mess he has managed to make - two Days more or less talking only about him - would make the seer more or less irresponsible if s/he didn't dream of him and check him.

See my point re: the Seer not checking confirmed liars. I don't see why you're so intent on pushing the thought that Phantom was Seer-dreamed (and you're also trying to say that he was dreamt innocent, as far as I can tell).


I actually suspect that if the phantom does have a special role, he's the Undecided Orc who decided to leave his record clean yesterDay so that he could choose without implications in the Night. And anyway, he's been trying to prove that he's innocent since the beginning, which would be beneficial to have the rest of us believe whatever role he chose to take.

I actually like this theory and think it's plausible.

Shasta- It's not so much what he's said; just that he seems very aggressive early on.

What's your point? Why shouldn't I be aggressive? Answer me that.

[the phantom]

As far as voting for a Rep today, hmm....

Legate, Nog, Rune, and Steve were going to be my options, but Rune has asked not to be one and I from his recent posts I don't trust Steve not to stab me with my vote. I'm also slightly entertaining the possibility of electing Sally just to see what she does, or letting Wilwa have another go at it as her vote yesterday wasn't exactly conclusive.
FACTS:
1) I've done this exact thing multiple times as an innocent.
2) I did so at a time in which I was clearly not trying to influence the vote.
3) There was no negative risk whatsoever.
1) That does not preclude you from doing it as a baddie.
2) So?
3) Except for... the part where... there totally... was?
On your first point- so what? Apparently you don't understand what my point means. You originally said that my bluff did not make sense as an innocent, and my point was in answer to that, saying that it does in fact make sense as an innocent. You pointing out that I could also have done so as a baddie is completely meaningless. As a matter of fact, the way you word it, it sounds as if you actually agree with my first point (you appear to be saying that it makes sense as both a goodie and baddie, and as my whole point was that I would indeed do so as a goodie, you basically backed me up).

And I apologize for the strong wording here, but your third point is dumb. You and Nerwen both have said again and again that there was some sort of risk involved, despite the fact that there wasn't. Tell me what the risk was. Go on. Tell me. And if you say, "The Seer might've counter-revealed" I will know beyond all doubt that your rational thinking is out of whack and so will everyone else. Sorry Shasta, but you can't just keep saying stuff that is not true.

[wilwarin538]

If I have to modfire anybody else, I'ma mass murder the lot of you, declare myself winner, and pout for a very long time. All y'all stop having to drop out mah game!

Oh mah gahd, I love you. (and am a little afraid)

Going to go eat (steak, yummy), and then I'll be back to vote and such.

[Eönwë]

Thank you those who have voted for me so far. Vote me for a change, for a new dawn... er... yeah. Anyway, I seem to have got something that's made the whole back of my palate swell up. So we'll see how I am tomorrow, and hopefully I'll be able to post more then.


As for who I want to vote as rep, I'm thinking either Legate or Inzil. Or maybe even Sally, just to see what she'd do. *Thinks* Well, maybe not.

Anyway, of the two above, since he already has a vote, I think I'll cement

++Legate

as a representative.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Back... from now on it should be better with my participation (although today I am soon going to sleep). Also because I really do not feel like trying to start to decipher all toDay's talk, which anyway has been somewhat rotating around several groups arguing, as far as I can see; I would like to take a look at the voting of Reps from yesterDay, as I wanted to do in the beginning, and try to think about the process. Also so that I can make it clear for myself, start from that and that way make conclusions also for toDay and to still make a vote. First a short reply:

Why do you think this, Legate?
(about what I said about sally being less suspicious now after Lottie is dead) I think it's been said already here several times also by other people: simply that I find it improbable that there would be. If I was for example to start thinking that there were two Wolves among the triangle of phantom and his voters, or actually, what is it, rectangle? Phantom, sally, Lottie and Mira, I would find phantom and Lottie far more likely, and in fact, now that I think of it, even Mira-Lottie, rather than sally-Lottie. It just came so out of the blue in the very beginning, unless it was planned beforehand, it would be awkward - and then again, if it was planned, I would expect the phantom to be the mastermind behind such a thing, so here we are back again at what I said before.

I am actually now already sort of working on a post about the reps and their votes in order to see if there can be and clue as to how many of them could have been SoE, what can it tell us etc., but it is becoming rather minute work and rather disconcerting, as the answers seem to sort of dissolve into nothing. Nonetheless, it helps me make better picture of people, so I will probably continue doing that still... and then maybe make some conclusions based on that, if it's worth anything.

EDIT: x-ed from sally onwards

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, great, so now it looks like I am a Rep, that at least makes it sure that I will participate more toMorrow :) One more reason to finish my post and analysis... and to read toDay once again (though I may save it for after I have slept, then).

So, in a while...

[Thinlómien]

So this far right about both Lottie and Boro. Not bad. :cool: Although not so right about Izzy... Well, anyway, now I feel encouraged to play and by the way, I apologise for coming so late and going away soon, but I'll be around more on the latter half of the Day.

And wait... Just spoiled myself: I don't like this. You drop outs are losing the advantage we got by being right yesterDay. Grr... Well no reason then to get too happy or lazy.

So some questions rightaway:
- Why did Izzie die?
- Why did phantom say he's the seer?

I have my theories but I'll comment on these issues once I've read others' posts and commented on them because these questions have no doubt been addressed.

Let's see...

Wilwa seems fishy but possibly in an innocent way

Lynching is our only tool for getting the Elves, so what's the harm in getting a couple done at once? I don't understand. Sometimes double-lynching might be smart, but not on Day1 when you have very little information on anything.

Nerwen is acting weird. Phantom's annoying me a bit, yes, but I think I know where he's coming from, or sort of. I can testify his claim about not voting fellows - I think he's always done it this far, which of course makes it improbable yet not impossible that he wouldn't do the same in this game.

1) If Phantom's an Orc, then his purpose is obvious and the best reaction to it would be not to ask questions about it and let him do his thing.
2) If Phantom is the Seer, then his purpose is obvious and the best reaction to it would be not to ask questions about it and let him do his thing.
3) If Phantom is a SoE, I can only assume he's trying to pass himself off as a self-sacrificing Orc, or paving the way for a future reveal. The best reaction would be to watch and wait to see what he does. I might want to question him about it, but given the odds are higher that it's one of the first two options the overall best bet would be to keep my mouth shut.Well, I'd say 1 is the most probable option, then 3 and then 2. It's very unlikely the real seer would reveal that way, but we cannot be certain, and at this point it's happily more the SoEs' problem than ours (if he really was the seer and died either by them or us, I have no doubt we would find satisfactory clues as for the identity of his dreem subjects).

Btw although I think Nerwen is the one who is "wrong" in this issue I think you phantom are being unnecessarily haughty - if you're not the seer there is always the risk of the seer making a counter-reveal for one reason or another and however small the risk might be it still exists. Nerwen has a point there.

Some of you who haven't done so- any chance you could follow the example of Rune and Greenie and make a list in which you name every villager and give a short blurb about them, or at the very least place them into categories of suspicion?Just so that it's be easier for you and (the other?) SoEs to find the seer? Hey come on. :rolleyes:

As for Izzie's death, weel, I'd love to check her posts for possible suspected seer dreams, but I don't have time for that now.

All in all, I'm sorry I'm not being too helpful now, but my brain is too tired to figure out who's guilty atm. I'll just vote my rep and be back tomorrow (it's 1.50 AM here).


edit: double x-ed with Legate

[Thinlómien]

++Nogrod for Rep

I wanted to vote somebody I feel kind of good about but need more info on him to be sure(r).

My other options were Zil and Foley (since Steve was already made a rep), so *hint hint* they could be made reps too. Don't you too want to know more about them? ;)

I chose Nog mostly because I probably agree with him the most out of these three, and I also kind of trust him to hear my say in the vote if i have something worthwile to say.

Good night!

[Thinlómien]

Oh and Rune the drunkard might've been an option too in other conditions :p, but I'm almost as sure of his innocence as of Greenie's and Legate's... (I think I can currently read these two/three quite well and they are innocent.)

Sweet dreams (and daydreams for you Americans and whatever dreams for Nerwen :D)!

[Inziladun]

Who to vote for toDay?
I'd probably go for Steve if he didn't already have two.
Legate's got two as well. Of yesterDay's reps, Lommy is the only one I might think of voting now. Hm.

Let's make it

++Shasta for rep

and see what he does.

x/d with Lommy x 2

[wilwarin538]

I'm going to vote now, cause I don't see myself changing my mind

++Folwren

Nerwen -> Shasta
Rune -> Steve
Greenie -> Steve (2)
Nogrod -> Legate
Eonwe -> Legate (2)
Lommy -> Nogrod
Inzil -> Shasta (2)
Wilwa -> Foley

So our reps so far: Legate2, Shasta2, Steve2

And I should still be around randomly for the next couple hours.

edit: had put Nog2 instead of Steve2, oopsie

[the phantom]

REP VOTING:

Nerwen for Shasta
Rune for Steve
Green for Steve (2)
Nog for Legate
Steve for Legate (2)
Lommy for Nog
Inzil for Shasta (2)
Wilwa for Foley

THE REPS:
Steve
Legate
Shasta

[the phantom]

All right... Rep decision time...

Is anyone else interested in seeing what Sally would do as a Rep? If not it would be a total waste for me to vote for her.

Also, is someone planning on giving a second to Nog?

Kath and Mira- are you here and can you quickly give some thoughts?

[satansaloser2005]

Is anyone else interested in seeing what Sally would do as a Rep?

I'll save you the trouble and just tell you what I'd do.

I'd kill an elf, that's what I'd do. Or I'd at least try. ;)



Sorry, sorry, I'm mostly back. Just got back to my yesterDay's-rep-votes post and will post it shortly if all goes to plan. :)


P.S. I'm considering voting Nog, but I have other options as well.

[the phantom]

On a scale of 1 to 10 how irritated would the village as a whole become if I started begging for votes and Sally and Mira obliged? :p

[wilwarin538]

On a scale of 1 to 10 how irritated would the village as a whole become if I started begging for votes and Sally and Mira obliged? :p

15 :p

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, here goes a little overview of my analysis above the Reps of yesterDay and their votes... The basic question is this: is it likely that there were SoE among the Reps; if so, how many; how could they possibly act in such circumstances; does something point to somebody in particular?

Let's start with the Reps, there were the phantom (with three votes, but voting no one), Lommy (voting Lottie with all three votes), Nerwen (voting Boro and Sally), Izzy (voting Lottie; innocent, now dead), Wilwa (voting Lottie and sally), Greenie (voting Sally) and Celuien (voting Boro). Note: It might be quite good and interesting to try to keep some voting record for the future in order to compare those people who have been reps and how they voted, especially if they were so more times. And I mean, of course we are probably going to check who voted for whom if we are looking at somebody in particular, but I mean even generally, to sort of bear it in mind. It is "the" voting record. I am not sure how much important the voting record of choosing the Reps is this far, as it largely depends how brave the SoE are, whether they are strongly influencing the votes from the beginning (which does not seem like the case, as otherwise Lottie would not have been lynched, unless it is all some very strong plan from the beginning, like intentional sacrifice, but then again, if it was so, it would need a very bold combination of people and if you look at the list and try to combine it so that it would make sense like that, I don't see too many logically coherent options) or whether they are now getting there more "indirectly". It will most likely be more important for the SoE to get among the Reps later in the game, with smaller village, where the chance of lynching a Wolf statistically increases.

Before I get sidetracked: I find it hard to find or unveil some "clique" in the yesterDay's voting process, like to find something that could seem like "here a SoE possibly voted a SoE to get him to be a Rep", except for the notorious phantom case. Not that I would have expected anything much anyway (and especially see above as to what I think about the SoE's activity).

I must say, Boro's quitting made some things clearer (like his role), but in general I think it didn't make many things much clearer, like when it comes to the votes cast for him by the other Reps. Celuien, half of Nerwen, and phantom, namely, were thinking of voting him or voted him; phantom didn't do so only because of that he didn't want a double-lynch. It remains questionable still what to make of it. One thing we can say for sure is that tp didn't go for double-lynch even though he could: and it would have been a wolf and ordo lynch. For this, I think it looks a bit better for tp: the SoE could at least even the odds if Boro died too. On the other hand, it is true that he would have brought the wrath of all the anti-doublelynchers upon himself, not to speak of that (as it seems to be) phantom is seemingly an anti-doublelyncher himself and perhaps people know it of him and so he would not dare to change his style so much so randomly. He could even use it as a bonus for proving his innocence, of course. That all without bringing the Seer-revelation thing into the picture, but I'd like to focus now also on the others.

You know what, I must say one thing - phantom might be dominating our talks all the time, but it can be said that this way we get much more info about him than of anybody else. I mean, if we knew equally much about everybody, we'd probably win the game rather soon. In that way, his loudness is rather helpful. (But before I boost him too much: now that we know enough, tp, you could become a bit quieter and leave space for others.)

Okay, as for the rest of voters. Celuien's vote probably becomes the most questionable, and Nerwen's sort of half-and-half. Similar thing could be actually said about Wilwa, who voted in the way so that there could be a double-lynch. While she didn't vote for Boro himself, she sort of allowed the possibility, with leaving the door open. And actually when looking at this, I found it one of the things worth noting too. I don't have any problems with double-lynches, but in case sally is innocent, even this possibly might have been a subtle way for a SoE to sort of make a half-wolf-on-wolf-vote and at the same time leaving the door open for other options, sort of "keeping one's hands clean while at the same time making it possible that the teammate is saved". That's something I would do as a SoE. Greenie's vote, even though not cast for a known innocent like in the previous cases, also gave two to somebody else than Lottie. Once again, if sally is innocent, quite an effective way to save a possible SoE-mate. Since I think sally might likely be (see before), I am making a questionmark here, too.

Now let me return only for a moment to Nerwen. I think I somehow got past my phase of being paranoid about Nerwen in every game and at least on first Day, she seemed okay to me with her opening posts, and later with some of her posts toDay, still the way she e.g. argued with phantom, however dramatic it sometimes went, it does not show anything bad about her to me. Of course, if sally is innocent, then Nerwen's move could have been to give two options besides a SoE-mate, but question is, what good would it be and how much a chance was there to lynch either of her options with the votes so spread: wouldn't it have been better to vote only one person?

Okay... I think I will stop here. I am going to cast my vote for Rep, and there will be a lot to do tomorrow still, but I think my thoughts have been sort of made more consistent now (not sure if this post is, though).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, toDay I am not going to make it complicated and vote for the person I wanted to have for Rep the previous Day, since this time she already has one vote -

++Folwren for Rep

Okay, looking forward to toSecondHalfMorrow, and I hope people will select some good Reps here...

Good night now, people.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Before it gets too late to put another option on the table...

++Nerwen

Now let's see.

[the phantom]

REP VOTING:

Nerwen for Shasta
Rune for Steve
Green for Steve (2)
Nog for Legate
Steve for Legate (2)
Lommy for Nog
Inzil for Shasta (2)
Wilwa for Foley
Legate for Foley (2)
Shasta for Nerwen

THE REPS:
Steve
Legate
Shasta
Foley

ALMOST REPS (need another vote):
Nog
Nerwen

STILL TO VOTE:
Kath
Mira
Celuien
Sally
Foley
Phantom

[the phantom]

Okay, I've been thinking, and besides giving Nog a second vote or giving Sally a try, I'm considering giving Wilwa a second chance to prove herself. Anyone else up for that?

[the phantom]

There is not much more than 20 minutes until the deadline. Are Kath, Mira, Cel, or Foley going to be here (i.e. have they said anywhere that they wouldn't be here)?

Sally- if the others don't show up then we're the last two voters and we definitely need to coordinate so we don't x-post and flush our votes on non-reps.

[satansaloser2005]

There is not much more than 20 minutes until the deadline. Are Kath, Mira, Cel, or Foley going to be here (i.e. have they said anywhere that they wouldn't be here)?

Sally- if the others don't show up then we're the last two voters and we definitely need to coordinate so we don't x-post and flush our votes on non-reps.

Frankly, dear, I do not want Vanilwa as a representative. I'd be okay with Nog, certainly, and I guess I could acquiesce to Nerwen being a choice, but not Wilwa.

[the phantom]

I checked the admin thread, and there Foley says she won't be here at all today and only for the last couple hours tomorrow. Well well- I wonder what she'll say to being made a Rep under her circumstances.

So that means it's only Mira, Cel, Sally, and I.

If that.

[the phantom]

Frankly, dear, I do not want Vanilwa as a representative. I'd be okay with Nog, certainly, and I guess I could acquiesce to Nerwen being a choice, but not Wilwa.
Well then, I certainly won't vote Wilwa. And of course I would prefer that Nerwen not be a rep considering the two-pronged fact that she was a Rep yesterday already and she's been after me today, so I'll totally beg for you not to vote for her. Please?

[satansaloser2005]

I checked the admin thread, and there Foley says she won't be here at all today and only for the last couple hours tomorrow. Well well- I wonder what she'll say to being made a Rep under her circumstances.

So that means it's only Mira, Cel, Sally, and I.

If that.

Snerk. Poor dear, she won't know what to do with herself. ;)


I think the Nebraskans should just overrun the thread, really.

[satansaloser2005]

Well then, I certainly won't vote Wilwa. And of course I would prefer that Nerwen not be a rep considering the two-pronged fact that she was a Rep yesterday already and she's been after me today, so I'll totally beg for you not to vote for her. Please?

Why do you think I'm unhappy about Shasta being a rep? Not only does he suspect me, I think he's pretty darn evil. Flip-flopping orc, maybe?

Anyway, I likely won't vote her. I'd be happier with Nog anyway.

[the phantom]

Ah well, it's good to hear that.

Should you vote Nog I would hold my vote until close to the deadline in case Cel or Mira rushes in and can agree to combine votes to make a Rep out of you. And in the end, one way or the other, I won't waste my rep vote.

[satansaloser2005]

Ah well, it's good to hear that.

Should you vote Nog I would hold my vote until close to the deadline in case Cel or Mira rushes in and can agree to combine votes to make a Rep out of you. And in the end, one way or the other, I won't waste my rep vote.

Heh. I was totally going to wait and see if I could get you into power. ;)

Seriously, though....

++Noggins to protect our noggins

[the phantom]

THE REPS:
Steve
Legate
Shasta
Foley
Nog

STILL TO VOTE:
Kath
Mira
Celuien
Foley
Phantom

I would like to see Nog get seconded and combine my vote with someone else to elect Sally. Anyone else around?

(EDIT: x-post, Nog is now a Rep. Now I just have to see if Mira, Cel, or Kath is willing to vote for Sally.)

[satansaloser2005]

If you can't get someone else in power would you consider thirding Nog?

[the phantom]

I was going to third Legate actually.

[the phantom]

For Rep-

++ Legate

REP VOTING:

Nerwen for Shasta
Rune for Steve
Green for Steve (2)
Nog for Legate
Steve for Legate (2)
Lommy for Nog
Inzil for Shasta (2)
Wilwa for Foley
Legate for Foley (2)
Shasta for Nerwen
Sally for Nog (2)
Phantom for Legate (3)

THE REPS:
Steve
Legate (3)
Shasta
Foley
Nog

DID NOT VOTE:
Kath
Mira
Celuien
Foley

[the phantom]

Okay. That's it for now. Things to do.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Your reps are:

Steve (2)
Legate (3)
Shasta (2)
Foley (2)
Nog (2)

[Nerwen]

Lottie, Sally and phantom– the votes

I'm just looking at the early part of Day One, up until phantom got his first two rep votes. Apologies for the length of this, but I think it's important to quote many of these posts in full.


#3. Banter from Lottie.


#4. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=638999&postcount=4)Sally votes phantom for rep in her first post– rest is banter.


#5. That's a lot of red text, Sallycake. Written in blood, per'aps?


#6 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=639001&postcount=6). Zil queries it.


#7.Lottie and Inzil- why have you not voted me for representative yet?

Nice to see at least Sally knows how to do this thing properly.



#8.Originally Posted by Loslote
That's a lot of red text, Sallycake. Written in blood, per'aps?
Only if you got careless last Night, my dear Lottiepop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dun Dun Dun
Really? That amazing phantom gets a vote for rep in the first two posts of Day 1 without even showing up first?
Well, if he's good, I'll trust his judgement (for toDay, anyway). If he's evil, I trust him to not be stupid enough to do something like lynch the seer on Day One. It's a win-win from my perspective, as he either is good and tries to do something helpful or he's evil and isn't dumb enough to do something horribly destructive....yet.

EDIT: x'd with our beloved shadow itself....or, as I call it, BS


#9. (Response to Sally) This makes sense, and looks rather innocent of you, but I'm going be around, so Phantom, no vote for you.
Note this– originally Lottie was not planning to vote phantom. What changed her mind?


#10. Originally Posted by Sally
If he's evil, I trust him to not be stupid enough to do something like lynch the seer on Day One.
To be perfectly frank, with sides as they are (only one gifted goodie) I would as a baddie most certainly try to off the Seer with a Day 1 lynch. It'd totally be worth it, and I'm sure I could disguise my intentions well enough to get away with it. I'm just daring and awesome like that.

Ah, but lucky for most of you I am not a baddie. Or, erm, I should say that I am a baddie, seeing as the enemies in this community are good guys. What do you folks think- should we reverse our terms for the sake of accuracy? It's rather weird to refer to the species that exists to kill and rape as the "good" side.

And Lottie, really, there is no need to delay. Every last villager is going to vote me as representative today, as it would entertain the mods as well as be historic and funny. As a matter of fact, it wouldn't surprise me if I received all the rep votes every day of the contest. If the Sons win then all the orcs can say, "That blasted Phantom didn't vote well and lost it for us! Let's make fun of him!" And that would be great fun, of course. Or if the Sons lose then all the orcs can say, "Ha- I chose my rep well, didn't I?" And that would be fun as well.

Note: Compare the text I've bolded in that post to this:
As such, this latter orc watched every other little goblin tremble with fear of the legendary Sons of Elrond and their minions, and thought a little guiltily that maybe they all deserved whatever they got.


#11. (Response to phantom).Ya hoi! What's this, lads? An Elf-friend in our midst?


#12.
Originally Posted by the phantom
And Lottie, really, there is no need to delay. Every last villager is going to vote me as representative today, as it would entertain the mods as well as be historic and funny.

I'll make everyone cookies if this happens. (Assuming Phantom pays the postage to mail them, of course, 'cause Sally is poor.)

And actually, sir, you do have a point. Stupidly, I'd looked over the rules and roles and then promptly forgotten them. So yes, you would do that, but you'd at least be classy about it, so you're still worth the vote.
Note: If Lottie and Sally were fellows, I think Lottie could have taken this post as a cue: "Yeah, go ahead and vote him!"


#13. Sally comments on narration: banter.


#14. (Response to phantom at #10– same post quoted by Sally)Or, of course, you turn out to be evil and utterly destroy us all. And then we can all go "oh, that Phantom!" and we'd all be having a right good time!


#15. (Response to Sally at #15.)Now, this is what I don't understand, my lass: why do you think one of these filthy Elves or their sneaking friends wouldn't want to murder our Seer first chance they get, no matter how the rules work exactly? Because they'll give 'emselves away? Nah! There's four of 'em, remember?


#16. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=639014&postcount=16) Long IC post by Boro. Disputes the phantom's claim that we should view the Elves as the good guys.


#17. Come now, Boro- what's with all the useless justification?

Face it- we orcs are evil. We were created for it. We can't be punished for the sins of our fathers? You know good and well that we'd commit those same sins if given the chance. If everyone keeps trying to paint Elrond's sons as the baddies here I'm going to start being deliberately unhelpful in disgust.

We orcs are the vicious and cruel baddies, and we're going to kill Elrond's sons and their helpers, NOT out of some sort of misplaced sense of justification, but because it's what we do, and we enjoy it!! We're going to capture them, and hurt them, and deliver their bodies one piece at a time back to their father, and their grandmother in Lorien. I say we work on plans to use them to draw her out of her woods. Heh heh heh... Oh the things we would do to that elf-queen.

PS If you haven't voted me as your representative yet, please do so. Let's make history.

Note again the bolded text. Isn't it rather likely that Lottielf interpreted this as an offer of support from the Unknown Orc?


#18. Originally Posted by Lottie
Or, of course, you turn out to be evil and utterly destroy us all. And then we can all go "oh, that Phantom!" and we'd all be having a right good time!
Well no, but I would have a good time, so it all balances out, yes? So yeah, um, vote for me. Vote for me now.

Need a second opinion? Let's ask Emperor Palpatine-

Emperor Palpatine: "Do it!"



#19.I'm honestly considering it...I won't be able to get online until an hour before DL, and I'll probably not have much time to catch up, much less form opinions, and it is Day 1, after all...you know what, fine.

++The Puddintom for Representative


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So. Lottielf (see #9) seems to have begun the Day with no intention of following Sally's vote. She changes her mind only after heavy urging from the phantom (see everything), apparently supported by Sally (see #12).

I think it not unlikely one of these two is Lottie's fellow. My guess is that it might be Sally, and that Lottie, and perhaps Sally as well, took phantom's post at #10 as a pledge of loyalty from the Unknown Orc. Then perhaps Lottie took Sally's post at #12 as a signal that it was OK to vote phantom. (Note that in each case it could have been a misinterpretation– that doesn't matter.)

That is all speculation, of course– I could be completely out in all this. The point I am making is that Lottie and Sally's voting patterns are not the massive obstacle to a Sallyelf theory that they've been taken as.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I checked the admin thread, and there Foley says she won't be here at all today and only for the last couple hours tomorrow. Well well- I wonder what she'll say to being made a Rep under her circumstances.
Crap, indeed, actually now I see that I have read it, should've remembered that. Well, I hope she's around at least a bit still...

We have a bit fewer Representatives now, which is a pity, on the other hand, the numbers might possibly get thinner as the village gets smaller - which can be dangerous as well.

Okay, I've been thinking, and besides giving Nog a second vote or giving Sally a try, I'm considering giving Wilwa a second chance to prove herself. Anyone else up for that?
I just started to think - as I was reading through these - that now actually it will be a time to start looking for possible reps lifting SoE to Rep positions toDay. Of course, we know very little, but let me just remark to this now. This raised my attention this time, as Wilwa's record is somewhat suspicious from my pov (see above), and of course in combination with phantom, who I think even as a SoE would be bold enough to vote his fellows for Reps rather openly, this might be a way of "circulating SoE among the Reps" - i.e. one day tp is there, the other day it's him voting wilwa, basically making sure there's at least somebody every Day. Same could go even for phantom-sally if sally is a SoE after all, there of course might be more to it then basic "repayment for what you did for me yesterday". Nonetheless, phantom in the end didn't vote them, but only because there wasn't anymore the option for him. But let me say this even generally: if there is some "circulation of Reps" in the future (A votes B, B votes C, C votes A or something like that), especially on the later Days when the village is smaller, then that should definitely be noted.

I think it not unlikely one of these two is Lottie's fellow. My guess is that it might be Sally, and that Lottie, and perhaps Sally as well, took phantom's post at #10 as a pledge of loyalty from the Unknown Orc. Then perhaps Lottie took Sally's post at #12 as a signal that it was OK to vote phantom. (Note that in each case it could have been a misinterpretation– that doesn't matter.)

That is all speculation, of course– I could be completely out in all this. The point I am making is that Lottie and Sally's voting patterns are not the massive obstacle to a Sallyelf theory that they've been taken as.
This "review" was actually quite good and helped me to once again think of the situation there better. I must say that Nerwen is right here that indeed the double-vote from both sally and Lottie is not so improbable to have been from two SoE. Still, just the sort of general, well, perhaps probability, makes it easier for me to imagine sally as innocent. Also the chance of Lottie seeing a phUndecidedOrc here - still, we cannot determine for sure whether even in such a case, it really was a signal, or if Lottie really reacted just based on that. To me, at least, interpretating this as "signal" sounds rather farfetched - but then again, Nerwen thinks so and I am not Lottie, and maybe she might have thought similarly to Nerwen? Well, another of many points to consider in relation to, sigh, the phantom (I would like some time to get some points to consider about somebody else!).

It would have been perhaps good to likewise analyse Mira's relation to the whole subject, as the last phantom-voter, but actually, she hasn't been around so much now, has she? Actually, there were quite many people who were not so active during the first half of toDay - I would like to see them further, if it's possible. People like Kath, or Celuien (would really like to look at her now that I have considered her votes)...

Generally, a few thoughts on people after this: considering all I said now, it once again shifts my view of tp even a bit more to the innocent side - or, at most, thinking (if Nerwen's interpretation was correct) that tp could be the undecided orc, if not innocent (basically, not Lottie's fellow, that was the point). I am still thinking quite good of Nerwen, although of course the whole post could have been made to further frame innocent sally or on the other hand, make us think Lottie and phantom are not fellows. Considering how Nerwen and tp have been upon each other, though, it would be curious to find them fellow Wolves - on the other hand, perhaps in circumstances we have, especially if you do not need to become a Rep yourself, you can go into large-scale fights with your packmate and still not worry about it, as long as you don't get into the position where you should vote for them.

I am quite happy with the Reps we have, especially Steve I still trust quite a lot, Folwren (if she is around) also seemed okay. I actually haven't focused on shasta much this far, perhaps this is a good time and good chance to start. Nog is nice choice too, although I don't have particular opinions on him in this game, but then again, I think if I had, it would have meant that I found something suspicious about him, which I did not.

Off for a while, will be back in several hours. Looking forward to see some posts... May The Phorc Not Be Among Them in excessive amount. ;)

[A Little Green]

I'm pretty happy with our reps. All of them, in fact. I'm pretty sure Shasta and Foley are innocent, and Nog, Steve and Legate are all players I'm inclined to find more innocentish than not but that I'd love to get a better feel of. Looking forwards to seeing what they will do! I'm feeling optimistic right now.

Let's see a pack of representatives emerging from the voting!What a choice of words..
Wilwa seems fishy but possibly in an innocent wayEh? How can you be fishy in an innocent way?

Nerwen's post about Sally, Lottie and phantom is very interesting. Certainly doesn't make me feel better about Sally.

[A Little Green]

Is there anyone around? I wouldn't mind a chat.

[Kath]

I'm sorry. I was fully intending to vote toDay but I thought it was by 7pm (my time) today that we had to vote for Reps. 48 hour Days are complicated! Anyway I'll get reading and try to come up with something useful.

I've skimmed the last couple of pages and to answer, I think it was phantom, I wouldn't have voted sally for Rep. Well, I don't know. I certainly wouldn't want you BOTH as Reps - one or the other maybe. I would have gone for Lommy as I think she did well yesterDay ... or maybe Legate as he seems to be pretty involved and sounds innocent to me. Nerwen as well possibly, her nitpicky fighting with phantom suggests innocence to me - she's often a little more blase as a wolf (Elf, whatever). As to the idea of making quieter players Reps to try and draw them out - fine if they're quiet because they're lurkers, not so fine if they're quiet because they're just plain not around as you may well end up with votes getting lost.

Off to read. Will probably make that list of opinions phantom asked for.

[Nerwen]

Nerwen's post about Sally, Lottie and phantom is very interesting. Certainly doesn't make me feel better about Sally.

Also the chance of Lottie seeing a phUndecidedOrc here - still, we cannot determine for sure whether even in such a case, it really was a signal, or if Lottie really reacted just based on that. To me, at least, interpretating this as "signal" sounds rather farfetched - but then again, Nerwen thinks so and I am not Lottie, and maybe she might have thought similarly to Nerwen? Well, another of many points to consider in relation to, sigh, the phantom (I would like some time to get some points to consider about somebody else!).
I wouldn't want to depend too much on my own reasoning there, either to discount phantom as an SoE or show Sally must be one– as I said, it's just speculation. However, Lottie's "Legate-180" on phantom is odd enough that it's worth trying to think of an explanation. One thing that stands out is that Lottie's vote for phantom was probably not something pre-arranged during the Night– so we shouldn't argue from the assumption that it was, as some I think have been doing. (That's not absolutely certain, though– her reluctance could have been staged, of course.)


It would have been perhaps good to likewise analyse Mira's relation to the whole subject, as the last phantom-voter, but actually, she hasn't been around so much now, has she?

Has she been around at all since her original vote?

EDIT:X'd with Kath; added comment.

[Thinlómien]

I'm back...

The rep pool seems nice, a good mix of people whom I trust (Legate), almost trust (Nog, Foley, Steve) and don't trust (Shasta). What doesn't seem nice, though, is the fact that so many people didn't vote. We don't really need that in a village where two ordos have already been modfired...

Eh? How can you be fishy in an innocent way?Well, sometimes people seem kind of weird or suspicious but they just do it the way that you start thinking they are probably just weird innocents. However, you need not worry about that so much because currently I'm actually thinking Wilwa is fishy in a not-so-innocent way... ;)

Today I'm going to
- reread what happened on the latter half of yesterDay after I left and try to draw conclusions
- decide whom I find suspicious and lobby for their death

But I'm warning you I have seemingly caught a flu and if it's the same one Agan had a week ago I may yet develop a high fever to make myself very ineffective. Currently feeling quite fine though so probably trying to get something done right now...


edit: celled with Nerwie

[A Little Green]

I wouldn't want to depend too much on my own reasoning there, either to discount phantom as an SoE or show Sally must be one– as I said, it's just speculation.Barring Seer reveals, this game is all about speculation, isn't it? I'm not saying Sally must be an elf, but her behaviour really makes me suspect she is - and when you gave a more or less logical explanation as to why she and Lottie could have been elves together after all I naturally felt inclined to agree with it. Does that make sense?

Nerwen, if you're still around: who are your top suspects and why?

Also, yay for Kath's reappearance!

[Nogrod]

Thank you for your trust. I'll try to be worth it. But as you probably know, I need to vote about four hours before the DL the latest so I'm not able to be there around the DL (that being 4am) as I have an early morning call tomorrow.

I have now read all there is. I will take stuff to my memorystick and head back home soon and then do some thinking there to come back to this pub later in the evening - as I don't think I should sit here for eight hours drinking beer and end up worse than Rune would have been were he made a representative... :D

I'm not saying Sally must be an elf, but her behaviour really makes me suspect she is - and when you gave a more or less logical explanation as to why she and Lottie could have been elves together after all I naturally felt inclined to agree with it.The problem here is that there is also another logical explanation. So let's leave this matter to the seer, honestly.

We might do with an analysis also on Lottie's relations to everyone, not only an analysis that has been limited to this predetermined supposition of Sally - Lottie - phantom forming a triangle. If I'm correct in thinking that Sally & tp are innocents then I could see the SoE's be more than happy to keep up the impression that S & tp are tied to Lottie and should be only be handled in the context of their relation to Lottielf. So we should also check Lottie's other contacts...

[Nerwen]

Wilwa, Day One (first half)
#86. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=639097&postcount=86) Long post about how we should arrange the voting– thinks we should have many reps, with none having more than two votes.


#94. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=639108&postcount=94) More on voting. Will not talk about tp "because Day 1s are always about him". Does not like Sally and Lottie's votes, but does not find either of them suspicious: "they enjoy doing crazy things". Will not rep-vote them, though. Likes Lommy, Legate, Boro, Nog and Greenie.


#119. Will make vote-count.


#121. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=639136&postcount=121) Vote-count. Advises that nobody should give tp a fourth vote, and that the votes in general should be spread out.


#127. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=639143&postcount=127) Defends her voting-plan against Steve's criticism. Might vote Nog, Lommy, Boro, Legate, Greenie, Izzy, Zil or me. (i.e. half the village!) Will decide later. Will be around at DL.


#129. Asks Fea if all reps automatically get 2 votes.


#135 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=639151&postcount=135)Declines to vote phantom, again defends her plan to Steve.


#157. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=639178&postcount=157) Vote count. Will not vote for anyone without a vote already, in case it goes to waste. Now considering Boro or Lommy. Finds tp's vote for Cel "a tad odd", but does not object, as she likes the idea of voting some quiet people.


#159. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=639180&postcount=159) Votes Lommy "Because I agreed with her today, and she's a very logical person, so I trust her to make a good choice."


#164 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=639185&postcount=164), #167 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=639188&postcount=167). Minor argument'clarification request about the voting rules.


#169. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=639190&postcount=169)Wants to elect quiet players.


#170, #176. Banter with Fea.

#181. Suspects Foley confused Zil and Izzy. (This was the case.)


#186. Banter about votes. Will be back later.




Wilwa, Day One (second half)

#220. Is back.

#227. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=639266&postcount=227) Is having computer problems.


#258. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=639303&postcount=258)Banter with Fea. Phantom is being silly. Defends her voting-plan.

Has no idea who to vote; asks for suggestions: If the people who voted me in (Boro and Izzy right?) could like write my name in all caps and bold it (WILWA) like so, so that I can see it, and then say who they want to vote for, I'll take those suggestions into consideration and likely go for one of those, because I haven't been around enough to make much of an informed decision, unfortunately, and likely won't have the time too, and since there is going to be so few votes I don't want to make it random, so I'd rather go off their more informed opinions.



#289. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=639335&postcount=289) Agrees with Xed that phantom isn't suspicious: Especially in games like this, where the dynamic is different, he waltzes in with some idea along the lines of "I'm the bestest and the smartest, do what I say and we win", so we really can't suspect him for that.
Of Sally and Lottie: I hearts them greatly *snuggles*, but would be willing to lynch them both. At the moment the way Lottie defended Phantom so much earlier seemed strange to me (I think it was Nerwen she was talking back and forth with, and the whole exchange was just so weird), so I'd be leaning more towards her, she just seems so sneaky.
Fine with Boro, with give Glirdan a pass for the moment, likes Xed, Shasta and Nog. Neutral about everyone else.


#295. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=639341&postcount=295) Banter. Defends phantom.


#297. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=639343&postcount=297) Vote count. Notes that phantom's vote will probably decide the lynch.


#298 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=639345&postcount=299). Casts a vote each for Lottie and Sally.

Comments: Wilwa posts a lot without saying much; general tone of breathless gaiety is reminiscent of her wolf-style; only starts suspecting Lottie when the latter is clearly in trouble. So yeah, she might be a wolf– but surely only if Sally isn't, because otherwise voting them both would be an insane risk.

EDIT: typo.

[Nerwen]

Barring Seer reveals, this game is all about speculation, isn't it? I'm not saying Sally must be an elf, but her behaviour really makes me suspect she is - and when you gave a more or less logical explanation as to why she and Lottie could have been elves together after all I naturally felt inclined to agree with it. Does that make sense?
Yes.

Nerwen, if you're still around: who are your top suspects and why?

Oh, Sally, of course. And after her, those shady characters Xed and Mira– though of course there's not much to go on with either of them. And maybe Wilwa on Day One, now that I've looked at her, though not as Sally's partner. And maybe Zil, though that's for something very slight.

And I haven't ruled out the phantom yet, either.

[Thinlómien]

Nerwen's analysis doesn't really make Wilwa look any better in my eyes. However, what I'd love to do is going through Lottie's relations with others, but somehow I'm not sure I have the energy. Blah. I'm off to reread the last hours of Day1, and then I will hopefully either gather my thoughts about people or possibly try the Lottie-thing. If someone feels up to analysis, though, that would be a lovely thing to do. *hint hint*

edit: xed with Nerwen

[Thinlómien]

And no, Noggie and Lommie, I'm not playing a phorc phiddle... but I do find it fun to be in-role as an orc. *throws disgusting and probably questionably procured items in a bubbling cauldron of smelly stew* If suspicion of me is only based on being in role, that's interesting, and will place my eye in the direction of said suspectors.It's not based on that. It's a general feeling I can't shake which is based on your playing style. Something is off there. I know these kind of suspicions are very annoying for the recipient because you can't really defend yourself against them, but I don't have anything else against you atm.

Funny that the two whom phantom wanted to see dead yesterDay ended up modfired toDay... Phantom dear, are you sure you haven't been bribing our moddesses? ;)

Unless both Sally and Lottie are wolves, then wolf-phantom would've been wise to change his mind about Sally a bit earlier on and voted her and saved Lottie. This makes him seem more innocent (until/unless sally is proved a wolf, which wouldn't be that big a surprise). Also, he seems too impassionate in the end of the voting on Day1 to have any serious interest on the income, which he would've had had he been a wolf with (just) Lottie.

Okay I think I will make some sort of a summary about what I feel about people...

[Thinlómien]

Rather innocent
Greenie - I think I can read her at the moment, and she seems like her innocent self. Simply, there's nothing particularily suspicious in the way she acts.
Legate - see above (except replace "she" with "he" ;)).

Relatively innocent
Eönwë - nothing I've seen from him really makes me worry, but it's been ages since I played with him so I have this uncomfortable feeling he might be fooling me all the time as I don't know what to expect and I'm not realising it.
Nogrod - lacks the carefulness and certain opinionatedness of the typical Nogwolf. Still far from sure, since I tend to fail at reading him.
Phantom - all in all, he seems more innocent and guilty, simply like the cunning yet annoying plotty-phanty. But like I said, if Sally turns out to be a wolf, we need serious reconsiderations.
Rune - I think a Runewolf tends to be more touchy and less genuine-feeling. Rune hasn't been threatened much yet though, so if he has fur, it's been quite easy to hide it.

Middle
Foley - I used to think her very innocent, but now she hasn't been around, so I have started to doubt my quite hasty conslusions on her alignment. Would love to see more of her, but still not too worried yet!
Nerwen - she's so difficult! Reading her posts, every second screams innocent and every second screams wolf. Currently leaning slightly innocent.
Shasta - uses 90% of his energy arguing with tp. Unusual? No. Good cover for a SoE? Yes. *deep sigh* There's something I don't trust in his manner, but then again, would he really be this single-minded as a wolf?
Zillo - I tend to suspect him always a bit based on his playing style. But if I think reasonably, he seems quite good this far. I'm not worried but I'd love to see more of him.

No clue
Kath - glad to see her around. Need more data, though.
Mira - seriously, gal, say SOMETHING.

Suspicious
Celuien - like I said, it's just a gut-feeling. Something seems off with her posting style. And like somebody pointed out, her vote wasn't the least suspicious one yesterDay.
Sally - well there is something going on here too. I have to say she is weirdly kind of flying under my radar, but I don't like her attitude in this game. Too chirpy.
Vanilla muffin - although the reasoning of it is plausible, her "either way" vote yesterDay is just too convenient. Also, I get the Wolfwa vibes from the tone of her posts - there's something out-of-place there which might be that she's being evil ie against her true nature. ;)

[Kath]

About the kill: Given Izzy's focus on Lottie as being guilty it makes sense for her to be Night killed. I think it was her who said 'usually I can get Glirdan's guilt but this time I've got nada' or something along those lines. Possibly could have been read as a Seer hint, as well as her pursuit of Lottie.

phantom - to be honest I can never read him. Don't like his playing style. Doesn't mean he's evil. If he's good then great, let's hope he plays for his side to win this game.

wilwa - I quite like her explanation of her behaviour yesterDay. It was calm, measured and sensible. Not to say she doesn't know how not to come off as defensive if evil, but it looks okay to me. This: "if he's just an Ordo who was maybe trying to protect the Seer for a Night (though I can't see Phantom putting himself in the line of fire like that, at least not on the first Day)." she's wrong about - phantom often does that. Or some other strange plan that puts himself in the firing line rather than an actual Gifted. I see no problem with her splitting her vote either. Well, no, about the undecided Orc. While they hadn't officially chosen to be evil before Night 2 there is no reason they couldn't play towards that decision previously to that. AND wilwa reads that post of sally's as 'well done phantom'. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe she WAS saying that. It just didn't read that way to me. wilwa was a little flippant about the defensiveness thing, but when you've been suspected for just trying to give an explanation enough times it does get irritating. "Kath: since she hasn't been on much, being a rep might get her to participate more." See my earlier post for why this might not be a good idea! If you do it, just make sure someone tells me!

sally - "There's very few better ways to test Phantom than to give him power, and the best time to do that is on the first Day when he can be vocal and annoying but do hopefully very little damage. And look at that, we got a wolf." Someone suggested that this was sally saying 'we voted phantom and he got us a wolf'. I don't think that's what she's saying. The two comments are next to each other but not related. I don't really like the 'I thought Lottie was wolvish but didn't want to comment on it' part. Being incoherent is fine, so long as you're imparting some information about your thoughts! (Well, at least, I posted a paragraph of utter rubbish about two games ago but at least it showed some evidence of what I was thinking - don't know if anyone picked out what I was trying to say though. :D) Quite like her post about phantom though. It is a good description/explanation of his playing. Um, why when Nerwen pointed out what Shasta actually meant did sally still find it suspicious but when Shasta makes exactly the same point it's ok?

Inzil - "I could see no reason he would have legitimately revealed on Day 1, so I was already sceptical. But why would the elves not have taken him anyway to be on the safe side? There's no one to protect him." Because of exactly what you just said, you've answered your own question. No one thought it was real, they probably thought they had a better target in Izzy, and they figured leave him be to dominate more of the discussion toDay. "Kath- She's playing?" <-- Pah. :p Kinda repeating what others have said on phantom ... but then so am I.

Celuien - phantom had an interesting point about Celuien with the vote for Boro, got to say I didn't pick up much from her yesterDay when I skimmed through.

Nerwen - "If you're not the Seer, you've made a false reveal that might bring the real one out in the open– and again, for no good reason." To phantom, but nah - pretty much every player here is seasoned and has played with him. Whoever is the Seer was never really going to take that seriously enough to reveal. Also, he revealed at the end of the Day and there was time enough and posts enough the next Day for any suddenly panicked Seer to think it over and not reveal in response. (I worry that I've just read phantom's post where he says the exact same thing - we rarely agree that much. :D) Got to say I'm not totally happy with her focus on phantom actually, contrary to my earlier post. Her list of how phantom is playing is what he does every single game. Yeah I'm with her about what Shasta meant about how he'd rather sally had been lynched yesterDay. I don't think that was a particularly suspicious statement. Very interesting post about sally/phantom/Lottie. Good to have all those posts together and spelled out a bit. Interesting point on wilwa - when she's gleeful she has been wolvish in the past.

Shasta - I recall liking him yesterDay. He felt sensible. Ah but it was him who (to me) misread sally's post. I'm agreeing with most of what he's saying. Though I think he's missed some things. Those who said Lottie being guilty makes sally look better did explain their reasoning. This misunderstanding about him saying he'd rather have sally dead, it's quite interesting seeing the reactions to it. Who jumps on it as a slip and who disregards it. Yeees being aggressive ... but actually in a good way, he's making good points. Though I'd watch that, truly offending people isn't fun.

Greenie - agrees with me about sally. Ah and misread that post as well. Apart from that though I like Greenie here. She feels to be asking interesting and pertinent questions.

Legate - well, phantom DID reveal after Lottie's lynch was secured, but I actually think that makes him look more innocent as it didn't mess up the end of the Day or have the chance of any effect on the votes. He wasn't suspected enough to need to save himself with such a stunt. Good thoughts on what happened yesterDay I think. Happy with him as a Rep.

Rune - yup, completely agree with him about phantom. Fair point about sally. For both her and Lottie to vote phantom and be evil is a little unlikely. Not impossible though as they may have thought more people would jump on that given it was Day 1. Hmm, which is what Nerwen says, kinda agree there. Good list post. Reasoning behind everything.

Nog - short and sweet. Is this really Nog? Though I kind of agree with Shasta. We can't assume the phantom has been dreamt of. And with only one Elf down we can't assume that the Seer wouldn't keep quiet even if they had dreamt of phantom and found him to be evil. Ah he's playing statistics about sally. Fair enough.

Eonwe - sums up the phantom/Nerwen fight pretty well. Nice thinking on phantom's lack of voting. No, no I don't agree with him and Legate. phantom was in NO danger at the end of yesterDay when he 'revealed' - so that's not a reason for the reveal.

Lommy - being the mediator toDay! Some good points though I think. I'm actually pretty happy with Lommy so far this game so kudos to her if she's evil. And a Lommy flip-flop on wilwa. Due to questioning or re-reading. The answer to that might say something.

Conclusions coming shortly.

But first - quick point:
Aggressive/abusive: And I apologize for the strong wording here, but your third point is dumb.

Playing the game: For those who don't have time to read this post, this is just more Sally taking everything I say out of context as per usual in an attempt to make herself look better.

We've all seen nasty arguments and people getting very upset about things that have been said. Let's not go back to that eh? Keep things game-relevant. Being cross about being argued with/suspected/misunderstood doesn't give you the right to tell someone else they're stupid.

[Kath]

Conclusions ... and before anyone complains, this is ALL based on the previous commentary post.

Not sure:
phantom - yeah, no clue.

sally - suspicious, and not exonerated by Lottie's death. However, I do feel it more unlikely than likely that she and Lottie would have voted the same, so close together, if both Elves.

Celuien - would like to see more from her.

Nog - hmm, hmm. Well, his constant assurances that the Seer will deal with the phantom may just be that he's very confident in our Seer ... but to exonerate anyone with that reasoning isn't sensible. I don't think that's quite what he's doing though. Not sure here.


Leaning innocent:
Nerwen - it's weird. Some posts I read and think she's aggressive and really over-making a point. And then she makes a brilliant post like that sally/phantom/Lottie one and my whole opinion changes. For now I'd say I was fairly happy with her.

Shasta - I'm feeling okay about him.

Greenie - feels innocent.

Legate - like I said feeling good about him.

Rune - would like to see more of him but happy so far.

Eonwe - not convinced about his thinking on phantom's reveal but otherwise I'm happy with him.

Lommy - would like to see more on her thoughts about wilwa, otherwise she feels good.


Leaning guilty:
Inzil - I'm not sure. I actually do feel suspicious of him. I do think it was odd to focus so on phantom's 'reveal'. But maybe I'm too used to dismissing phantom's actions.

wilwa - is playing a little ... 'gleefully' is my word for it which can mark wolvishness. That said, the actual content of her posts seems thought through even if I don't always agree with it. BUt again no reason she couldn't manage this as an Elf.

Now I've been doing this for 3 hours and am tired! I will try to answer questions and keep on track though as I will be around on and off til deadline now I think.

[A Little Green]

Phantom - all in all, he seems more innocent and guilty, simply like the cunning yet annoying plotty-phanty.I read this sentence aloud to Lommy and she asked me to clarify that it is a typo and should read "more innocent than guilty".

Other than that - I really like Kath at the moment. I'm unsure of what to make of Nog's insistence that the Seer should concentrate on the Sally-phantom-matter. While Nerwen's analysis of Wilwa made me more wary of her, I'm still more inclined to find her innocent than not.


EDIT: x-ed with another Kath!

[Nerwen]

If I'm correct in thinking that Sally & tp are innocents then I could see the SoE's be more than happy to keep up the impression that S & tp are tied to Lottie and should be only be handled in the context of their relation to Lottielf. So we should also check Lottie's other contacts...
Except she doesn't really have any. I just read through Day One. She posts plenty, but all she does is defend her vote for phantom, and defend phantom himself. Over and over.

Someone needs to work from the other direction– what people said about her, and to her. But I'm just too tired now to do it myself.

[satansaloser2005]

I need to stop randomly falling asleep. :(

Anyway, here's how this works. I explain/sum up the vote of a person, then put the current tally, then move onto the next vote. Simple, yes? All right. Now read.



I voted for Phantom in what was admittedly a mostly random move, but one that, on general principle, I was comfortable with. Besides, as far as I knew, I wouldn’t be around for the rest of the Day.

Sally-->Phantom


Lottie posts this shortly after my vote, which to me is worrisome.

This makes sense, and looks rather innocent of you, but I'm going be around, so Phantom, no vote for you.

...yet.

I find it interesting that it really does seem to be a foregone conclusion for her. This, at least for me, was the first sign that she might be evil. Just a tone thing, really.

Not long afterward, she votes.

Sally-->Phantom
Lottie-->Phantom (2)

Rune comes in a while later and says that he has “nothing to base his decisions on” but that he’s giving his power to Lommie. He also mentions that he would love to be a rep himself.

Sally-->Phantom
Lottie-->Phantom (2)
Rune-->Lommie

Greenie says she voted Nerwen because she is “independent-minded and clever” and says that putting a good Nerwen in charge is a good choice, while putting an evil Nerwen in charge can show us more about her character; either way (re: Nerwen’s alignment) Greenie is sure that voting Nerwen is a good idea. What concerns me here is that this is exactly the reasoning that I gave for Phantom. Greenie has been accusatory of me for my vote, yet hers was for the same reasons (though granted with more “evidence” behind it).

Also, if Wilwa was making so much sense, why didn’t she vote for her? I bring this up only because Wilwa is quite the suspect for me, and if Wilwa is a wolf I could see Greenie!wolf not wanting to have ties between them, and thus finding another candidate for representative. Just an idea to keep in mind for the future, really.

Sally-->Phantom
Lottie-->Phantom (2)
Rune-->Lommie
Greenie-->Nerwen

Nog votes for someone quiet, hoping to bring people out of the shadows and get a better mix of people in power. Izzy was innocent, which I think speaks well enough of Nog, but it also doesn’t clear him. Unfortunately, I don’t get much information or feeling out of this vote.

Sally-->Phantom
Lottie-->Phantom (2)
Rune-->Lommie
Greenie-->Nerwen
Nog-->Izzy

Mira’s vote is interesting for sure. She votes Phantom on what looks like banter. I’m not happy. Of course I know she didn’t have time to read everything, but if she read that far she could have at least said something I’d think. Meh, I don’t know. I’m not going to lynch her for this alone because I haven’t seen enough from her yet to know if this is evilness or just a rushed ordo.

Sally-->Phantom
Lottie-->Phantom (2)
Rune-->Lommie
Greenie-->Nerwen
Nog-->Izzy
Mira-->Phantom

Boro then votes for Vanilwa, which he justifies with liking her earlier proposal. Being the first Day, I wouldn’t have seen anything against it anyway, as you obviously vote for a rep you trust or agree with, and at this point there’s not much to agree on, so it’s a simple vote.

Also, yes, I know he’s dead, but I included him anyway. Nyah.

Sally-->Phantom
Lottie-->Phantom (2)
Rune-->Lommie
Greenie-->Nerwen
Nog-->Izzy
Mira-->Phantom
Boro-->Wilwa

Lommie votes for Greenie for much the same reason Boro votes for Muffin. She also mentions that she hopes Foley can be a rep.

Sally-->Phantom
Lottie-->Phantom (2)
Rune-->Lommie
Greenie-->Nerwen
Nog-->Izzy
Mira-->Phantom (3)
Boro-->Wilwa
Lommie-->Greenie

Steve makes his choice between Legate and Greenie in the latter’s favor, saying that, no surprise, she’s reasonable and not evil. (Also, as a point of interest, I originally read his post as “I don’t think she’s that evil”, not “I don’t think that she’s evil”. Why can life never be that simple?)

Sally-->Phantom
Lottie-->Phantom (2)
Rune-->Lommie
Greenie-->Nerwen
Nog-->Izzy
Mira-->Phantom (3)
Boro-->Wilwa
Lommie-->Greenie
Steve-->Greenie (2)

Dun (Dun Dun) seems to be one of the Boro vs. Phantom crowd (which wasn’t really a crowd, per se, but still). He was unhappy with Phantom’s rep status and thought Boro could....balance him out, I guess? There’s also the teeniest bit of push with that post, but I think I’m seeing things.

Sally-->Phantom
Lottie-->Phantom (2)
Rune-->Lommie
Greenie-->Nerwen
Nog-->Izzy
Mira-->Phantom (3)
Boro-->Wilwa
Lommie-->Greenie
Steve-->Greenie (2)
Dun-->Boro

Shasta voted Izzy. Because he could. ;)

Sally-->Phantom
Lottie-->Phantom (2)
Rune-->Lommie
Greenie-->Nerwen
Nog-->Izzy
Mira-->Phantom (3)
Boro-->Wilwa
Lommie-->Greenie
Steve-->Greenie (2)
Dun-->Boro
Shasta-->Izzy (2)

Legate, having seen that Izzy is now a rep, decides Nerwen is his next best choice.

Sally-->Phantom
Lottie-->Phantom (2)
Rune-->Lommie
Greenie-->Nerwen
Nog-->Izzy
Mira-->Phantom (3)
Boro-->Wilwa
Lommie-->Greenie
Steve-->Greenie (2)
Dun-->Boro
Shasta-->Izzy (2)
Legate-->Nerwen (2)

Cel’s vote is interesting, reasoned more along the lines of Nog’s but with the added mention that she doesn’t seem to have a problem with Phantom being a rep, unlike a few people expressed. In fact, she finds “nothing odd about tp’s campaign to lead”, but says it won’t really help determine his role. She’s not interested in watching Boro and Phantom fight, and isn’t too keen on discussing Phantom any more than she has to, though she would love a shiny gift. She also mentions that she likes “orcs with minds of their own”, and then votes for Foley.

Sally-->Phantom
Lottie-->Phantom (2)
Rune-->Lommie
Greenie-->Nerwen
Nog-->Izzy
Mira-->Phantom (3)
Boro-->Wilwa
Lommie-->Greenie
Steve-->Greenie (2)
Dun-->Boro
Shasta-->Izzy (2)
Legate-->Nerwen (2)
Cel-->Foley

After Phantom jokes earlier of Cel being innocent by admitting her “guilt”, he votes her, saying that he thinks she’s innocent and wants to see more of her.

Sally-->Phantom
Lottie-->Phantom (2)
Rune-->Lommie
Greenie-->Nerwen
Nog-->Izzy
Mira-->Phantom (3)
Boro-->Wilwa
Lommie-->Greenie
Steve-->Greenie (2)
Dun-->Boro
Shasta-->Izzy (2)
Legate-->Nerwen (2)
Cel-->Foley
Phantom-->Cel

Nerwen plops in rudely (snerk) and votes for Lommie, commenting later on the Phantom stuff.

Sally-->Phantom
Lottie-->Phantom (2)
Rune-->Lommie
Greenie-->Nerwen
Nog-->Izzy
Mira-->Phantom (3)
Boro-->Wilwa
Lommie-->Greenie
Steve-->Greenie (2)
Dun-->Boro
Shasta-->Izzy (2)
Legate-->Nerwen (2)
Cel-->Foley
Phantom-->Cel
Nerwen-->Lommie (2)

In an x-post, Wilwa says that Lommie is reasonable and trusted to make a good choice. In her edit she headdesks at condracting her power limitation plan but says she’s glad someone besides Phantom has more power.

Sally-->Phantom
Lottie-->Phantom (2)
Rune-->Lommie
Greenie-->Nerwen
Nog-->Izzy
Mira-->Phantom (3)
Boro-->Wilwa
Lommie-->Greenie
Steve-->Greenie (2)
Dun-->Boro
Shasta-->Izzy (2)
Legate-->Nerwen (2)
Cel-->Foley
Phantom-->Cel
Nerwen-->Lommie (2)
Wilwa-->Lommie (3)

Foley’s vote is confusing, but not guilt-riddled. I completely believe that she misread names and counts, but I find it interesting that she voted for Cel. Granted, it’s because I suspect Cel and I’m keeping my eye on possible ties, but also because Foley said “I like Dun” and then voted someone that she said she didn’t know much about (proven by her “I know little about most of the people who have only one vote”). Nothing huge, of course, but an interesting tidbit. I’m curious as to why she didn’t give Dun a bit more power rather than gambling on Cel (a curiosity that is not quelled by Cel’s less than squeaky clean behavior so far).

Sally-->Phantom
Lottie-->Phantom (2)
Rune-->Lommie
Greenie-->Nerwen
Nog-->Izzy
Mira-->Phantom (3)
Boro-->Wilwa
Lommie-->Greenie
Steve-->Greenie (2)
Dun-->Boro
Shasta-->Izzy (2)
Legate-->Nerwen (2)
Cel-->Foley
Phantom-->Cel
Nerwen-->Lommie (2)
Wilwa-->Lommie (3)
Foley-->Cel (2)

Izzy pops in last and adds Wilwa to the rep list, and that’s the end of Day One’s rep voting. On this final tally I’ve italicized the innocents and underlined known baddies, as is Norm.

Sally-->Phantom
Lottie-->Phantom (2)
Rune-->Lommie
Greenie-->Nerwen
Nog-->Izzy
Mira-->Phantom (3)
Boro-->Wilwa
Lommie-->Greenie
Steve-->Greenie (2)
Dun-->Boro
Shasta-->Izzy (2)
Legate-->Nerwen (2)
Cel-->Foley
Phantom-->Cel
Nerwen-->Lommie (2)
Wilwa-->Lommie (3)
Foley-->Cel (2)
Izzy-->Wilwa (2)

Didn’t vote for a representative: Glirdan, Kath

[Thinlómien]

Just letting you know I might not be back after this post.

Kath - Wilwa has seemed rather fishy to me since Day1, but sometimes she has seemed just innocently fishy (ie kind of eyebrow-raising the way some innocent people sometimes do). It was due to rereading and more thinking that I changed my mind, not because Greenie questioned my weird definition (she does it to me all the time :D).

As for toDay's lynch: I'd prefer to see Sally, Cel or Wilwa gone. I don't have many solid reasons to back this up: mostly they all just seem "off" to me (Cel the most), and Wilwa's vote was fishy. Sally's role would tell us a great deal of phantom, I think.

Going to hang around now for fifteen minutes (shall post if something interesting occurs) and then I'll be gone. I might be back in 3-4 hours but I might as well head to bed at that hour...


edit: xed with Sally and only noticed it after a few minutes of staring at the thread

[Thinlómien]

PS. Sally you forgot Mira from your tallies although you mentioned her.

Going now. Vote well, reps!

[satansaloser2005]

PS. Sally you forgot Mira from your tallies although you mentioned her.

Going now. Vote well, reps!

Oh. Bloody. Bother. Thanks for pointing that out. How'd I miss that? :confused:

[A Little Green]

Greenie says she voted Nerwen because she is “independent-minded and clever” and says that putting a good Nerwen in charge is a good choice, while putting an evil Nerwen in charge can show us more about her character; either way (re: Nerwen’s alignment) Greenie is sure that voting Nerwen is a good idea. What concerns me here is that this is exactly the reasoning that I gave for Phantom. Greenie has been accusatory of me for my vote, yet hers was for the same reasons (though granted with more “evidence” behind it).I think the "evidence" is what makes the difference for me. I was more inclined to find Nerwen innocent than not, and only after that did I come to think that even if she's evil putting her in charge might not be that bad an idea. What made me most uneasy about your vote was that it came before the one you voted for had even made an appearance, and therefore you could have no idea about his alignment in this game. Actually, though, stuff you have said after your yesterDay's rep vote concerns me much much more than that vote.
Also, if Wilwa was making so much sense, why didn’t she vote for her?I had only seen one (though innocentish and sense-making) post by Wilwa before I voted, and didn't want to vote for someone I had seen so little of. In fact, I'm not sure if voting her for rep even crossed my mind! I had more or less made my decision by the time Wilwa's first post appeared. Also, as you can plainly see from my vote post, Wilwa's second sense-making post I mentioned was one my vote post crossed with, so seeing that post couldn't have changed my vote even if I had wanted it to.

[Nogrod]

Except she doesn't really have any. I just read through Day One. She posts plenty, but all she does is defend her vote for phantom, and defend phantom himself. Over and over.

Someone needs to work from the other direction– what people said about her, and to her. But I'm just too tired now to do it myself.You're right about that. I actually read through D1 as well trying to look at the interactions - and sadly even the other POV didn't bring in anything that I could say would look really interesting. I made some notes though and will read them through yet to see them more closely.

I'm unsure of what to make of Nog's insistence that the Seer should concentrate on the Sally-phantom-matter.Well, so far (from the mid of D1 about) I have been guided by an interpretation of the general situation that points it being wiser to check them and not lynch them right away.


But reading yesterDay - and especially the ending of it made me actually quite unhappy with Wilwa. Look at these things...

First there is the minor fact that she left the voting like 25 minutes before the deadline. Convenient 25 minutes to wash her hands and leave the decision to others? You may be short on time and sometimes even half an hour of sleep is important. But still I find it more like an intentional decision to step out of the fray.

But why?

She did say eventually that she would prefer to lynch Lottie, but she also knew tp would not lynch Sally - and she had kind of closed the port for voting Boro already earlier saying she didn’t think of him as suspicious - and sure Boro had voted her as a rep so that route was shut.

So if she is an elf it would make that careful decision of one vote each and early exit quite understandable. Otherwise her actions (why get out at the last minutes & why deal even the votes if you preferred to lynch the other) make less sense.

Also, unlike some other here seem to think, I do also think Wilwa's first post toDay looked suspicious. Her explanations made sense, but the urge to defend herself looked to me quite overdone. The villains always feel threatened, more than they are, and these kind of over-reactions oftentimes follow.

I'm off to check back the Lottie-connections from D1.


x'd with Greenie

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Have been around and reading for a while and I have been trying to make my thoughts on whom I could basically vote. Let me now post a short list of people, and who of them I could vote for toDay:

Celuien - I started to look at her closely after I considered the votes, and now I am not sure about her posting, I think I would like to look at it again. She would be probably one option for me toDay.
Foley - inclined to believe her innocent and aside from that, she's not around - I am not voting her.
Greenie - she does not seem suspicious to me by her behavior, the only thing which could do her bad would be her voting, but that only in case sally is innocent, and even that makes quite many "what if"s. She is not getting my vote either.
Kath - good to see her around, there is nothing in her posts which would seem outright suspicious, I am getting perhaps some general disconcert from her, but that's her always-enigmatic nature for me. Let's see what can be made of her after some day she actually votes, or even becomes a Rep ;)
Lommy - also does not get my vote, for several reasons; her vote was probably the most innocent and she generally behaves innocently, I do not suspect her.
Mira - I have many questionmarks over her, but she is not around at all, so unless she shows up, I am not even considering her.
Nerwen - like I said a few times, generally I find her more on the innocent side; she won't be getting my vote today.
Nog - I am generally in the dark about him, I get no bad feeling from him, he is sort of basic Nog, but so basic (as in: "basic English") that I am not also not getting particularly strong inclinations that would make me think "yes, he surely must be innocent!" Could be largely caused by his lessened participation (there are no fights with Roa etc., where his general temper and behavior shows a lot more :) ) Likely not voting him.
Phantom - considering all the input I have from him/about him/other people about him etc., I think he is more on the innocent side by a tiny bit. Probably not voting him.
Rune - is sort of enigmatic and I am still not so very fond of him. He was not a Rep, so there was no chance to really read his votes. Like with Cel, I think I am going to take a better look at all of his posts, and see what I think after that. *later edit when re-checking the post before posting: Hm, actually, now I sort of pity that he is not a Rep, if there is a person whom I would like to see voting, it is him. Wonder if I should keep him for that and vote him Rep in the following Day, then... although who knows what the situation will be then...
Sally - I spoke about why I am inclined to think her innocent. If I had to choose between her and somebody I trust more, I could vote her, but I don't think it will come to that, especially with my amount of votes and with the fact that I am probably going to vote earlier than most of others due to the European time.
Shasta - no reading on him, like I said. I could possibly go through his posts too if I have time, although it would be starting rather from scratch (but I would like to do it sometime anyway). In any case, since nothing did jump on me on first sight, he's more like in the same cathegory as Kath for now.
Steve - generally seems very reasonable and all, I am most certainly not going to vote him today.
Wilwa - I have several questionmarks over her too, although when I read some peoples' suspicions against her, I am getting the sort of feeling of that this might be the case of "how to misjudge an innocent".
Zil - partially similar to Shasta now, has been under my radar for the previous Day mostly. Better to also take a look at him if I can.

Generally: the options for my vote as they are now would be like Celuien or Rune, to a lesser extent Wilwa, Zil or Sally (but the latter mostly under certain circumstances which do not seem likely to arise).

Thoughts, options, comments? Now is the time to make them also if somebody is around... I would also like to know whom would people vote - asking especially my voters (but I think it would be the best if we could hear from everybody). It's not that I am going to be guided against my will, but I might in some case of several equal options consider others' ideas (though to be honest, I do not expect that to happen and I would prefer to make my own decision anyway; aside from that, two of you are Reps too so you can use your votes as you see fit).

Since I spent actually over two hours here now, I will probably do something else for a while and then come back, reread something, possibly have something to read also from you others if anybody posts...

EDIT: ha, great, the silence is broken - x-ed with Greenie and Nog

[A Little Green]

This will, in all probability, be the last from me toDay. Reps, choose well please. I'd prefer it if you lynched Sally, and wouldn't object to lynching Cel or Mira. Also, I'd prefer it if you left Shasta, Lommy, Wilwa and phantom alone.


EDIT: x-ed with Legate and Nog! Yay, people! I might not leave after all. Or I might.

[satansaloser2005]

To Nog, re: Wilwa.

You're not alone by any means, I believe. I think Wilwa has been fishy as well, and unlike some, I don't have the wishy-washy "but it's innocent fishy" response to her.


To Legate.

For what it's worth, I'd greatly prefer Wilwa or Cel toDay, Wilwa especially. Not only do I suspect Wilwa pretty hard, I think her death could tell us quite a lot about others in the village.

EDIT: x'd with Greenie

[A Little Green]

Generally: the options for my vote as they are now would be like Celuien or Rune, to a lesser extent Wilwa, Zil or Sally (but the latter mostly under certain circumstances which do not seem likely to arise).

Thoughts, options, comments? Now is the time to make them also if somebody is around... I would also like to know whom would people vote - asking especially my voters (but I think it would be the best if we could hear from everybody). It's not that I am going to be guided against my will, but I might in some case of several equal options consider others' ideas (though to be honest, I do not expect that to happen and I would prefer to make my own decision anyway; aside from that, two of you are Reps too so you can use your votes as you see fit).Well. Of Celuien and Rune, I'd certainly prefer Cel as I think I have a read on Rune and I think he's innocent. Of Wilwa, Zil and Sally, then - I find Wilwa very innocent and wouldn't have you vote her, I'm not convinced either way about Zil, and as I said I certainly wouldn't mind seeing Sally lynched.


EDIT: x-ed with Sally

[Mirandir]

*is a super epic fail at this game and would request modfire if Fea wouldn't literally eat her soul and probably forbid her to ever loiter at her house again ever*

On that note, I am in desperate need of a nap and will be legitimately around after that (given I don't die in my sleep or something). If there's anything in particular people would like me to respond to, condensed versions would be much appreciated.

x.x

[Nogrod]

Nog - (there are no fights with Roa etc., where his general temper and behavior shows a lot more :) )My general temper or my overtired temper at 3am to 6am? :rolleyes:

Generally: the options for my vote as they are now would be like Celuien or Rune, to a lesser extent Wilwa, Zil or Sally (but the latter mostly under certain circumstances which do not seem likely to arise).
Okay. I need to look back at Celuien as so many people talk about her being suspicious - I kind of share a certain uneasiness with her due more to style-issues, but nothing more as yet.

Rune is more composed and he's not getting mad at anyone. So should I count it as suspicious? Agreeableness sure is one of the general trademarks of the elves.

Inzil has been quite careful - like I think he normally is. So I don't see any special red lights going on in there. But I think I need to take a closer look at him as well.

Sally I would leave to the seer as I said before. Someone actually noted that it might take a few Days before the seer comes out - that's just the better, for that would mean more information.

At the moment I think Wilwa looks the most suspicious (especially the voting-stuff from yesterDay), but I'll check at some others as well.

[Inziladun]

I think it not unlikely one of these two is Lottie's fellow. My guess is that it might be Sally, and that Lottie, and perhaps Sally as well, took phantom's post at #10 as a pledge of loyalty from the Unknown Orc. Then perhaps Lottie took Sally's post at #12 as a signal that it was OK to vote phantom. (Note that in each case it could have been a misinterpretation– that doesn't matter.)

That is all speculation, of course– I could be completely out in all this. The point I am making is that Lottie and Sally's voting patterns are not the massive obstacle to a Sallyelf theory that they've been taken as.

I must say that Nerwen is right here that indeed the double-vote from both sally and Lottie is not so improbable to have been from two SoE.

I still think that for Lottie to have made her vote so quickly in the footsteps of her mate would have been unnecessarily risky. She had to have known those votes would be questioned.
I'd agree with those who said that if Lottie did indeed follow SallyElf's lead by voting tp, it was a sudden decision, not something they'd planned. Like I said, they'd have to have considered that those votes would be scrutinized.

Wilwa posts a lot without saying much; general tone of breathless gaiety is reminiscent of her wolf-style; only starts suspecting Lottie when the latter is clearly in trouble. So yeah, she might be a wolf– but surely only if Sally isn't, because otherwise voting them both would be an insane risk.

I thought Wilwa looked all right going up to YesterDay's vote. I was thinking of voting for her at one point. It was her split votes, coupled with toDay's apparent nerviness that made me suspect her. And I agree that it's highly unlikely she and Sally are both evil.


Unless both Sally and Lottie are wolves, then wolf-phantom would've been wise to change his mind about Sally a bit earlier on and voted her and saved Lottie. This makes him seem more innocent (until/unless sally is proved a wolf, which wouldn't be that big a surprise). Also, he seems too impassionate in the end of the voting on Day1 to have any serious interest on the income, which he would've had had he been a wolf with (just) Lottie.

It seems insanely risky for three Elves to have so blatantly joined themselves together so early on Day 1. That's is why I'm leaning more toward tp being the OoUA than an Elf, (if he is indeed evil). I don't think he would have invited Lottie's vote the way he did if they'd been mates.

As for toDay's lynch: I'd prefer to see Sally, Cel or Wilwa gone. I don't have many solid reasons to back this up: mostly they all just seem "off" to me (Cel the most), and Wilwa's vote was fishy. Sally's role would tell us a great deal of phantom, I think.

I think I'd prefer Wilwa over Sally at this point, but either could tell us quite a bit with their alignment known. The most suspect thing about Cel seems to be her vote yesterDay, and I don't think I'd want to lynch her, especially as she hasn't been her toDay at all.

[the phantom]

Off for a while, will be back in several hours. Looking forward to see some posts... May The Phorc Not Be Among Them in excessive amount. ;)
Yeah, what are the chances of that.
Looking forwards to seeing what they will do! I'm feeling optimistic right now.
Are you always this optimistic? Because I almost want to suspect you for it, as it is usually quite difficult to convince me of my chances until something is nearly in the bag or the odds are stacked heavily in favor, and even then I tend to worry and fear the worst. Blast you and your different way of thinking! :p
Funny that the two whom phantom wanted to see dead yesterDay ended up modfired toDay... Phantom dear, are you sure you haven't been bribing our moddesses?
Are you questioning me? Because if you are...
*prepares to send another bribe to the Mods*

Kath is here!! And looks good.

Anyway, I'll be back with a Rep voting list and such (for both days) and will give some thoughts.

[the phantom]

IMPORTANT NOTE: Please recall that Fea asked us to remember to use the correct voting format this time around- double signs (++) on BOTH sides of the name you are voting for.

Her example from the Admin thread-
++Fea++

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Here and reading. I've noted several things to comment on, not least of which is Nogrod and his insistence on leaving everything to the Seer. He's mentioned it at least twice now - "Leave Phantom to the Seer! Leave Sally to the Seer!" - and I call shenanigans. Nogrod, you're being absurd.

Will formulate a better post now.

[Nogrod]

Celuien and her massive posting of a total of 8 posts (of which none on D2)

#139 Tells us she’s reading halfway through, IC banter.

#153 Now I see what I was feeling odd about: it feels like she is trying too hard to fit into the IC, to be light-hearted. But she talks reasonably of how dangerous it would be to let elves steer the vote, or basically just let a few to dominate the vote. Interestingly she pauses the thinking for saying there’s nothing odd in tp campaigning for leadership – to then continue why he’s not voting him: “I do want to spread some of the representing vote power around and because I want to get more discussion and voting trails for tomorrow“. She doesn’t want to vote Boro for rep as she fears a Boro – phantom duel and goes for a quieter one – votes Foley for rep.

#154 I don’t actually understand this so let you others explain it to me.
Originally Posted by the phantom
It goes back to that tantrum I threw at the beginning- the fact that we orcs are the bad guys, and I'm sick of this wishy-washy nonsense about trying to paint ourselves as the good guys. Let's be bad and enjoy it, I say! And Cel came right in displaying that attitude, and it made me smile. So yeah, no other reason than that.
Haha! Or rather, mwhahaha. None of this "good" nonsense. That sounds like elf talk.
(This was followed by tp voting her as a representative)

#191 Comes back (two and half hours later) only to comment on nick-names and signs out promising to pay attention later.



#272 Reports to duty – the similar joking tone I feel is a bit off. Promises to be back after catching up.

#279 Says she doesn’t believe tp is an elf and also thinks that jumping on the early voters just because they voted early is silly. Says she has always been in the “D1’s are annoying”-camp and could have acted likewise. Answers me and Lommy and says it’s more suspicious to suspect someone because of being in a role and says to watch back. Says Izzy, Steve and Wilwa look genuine. Something bothers him with Boro discussing with Mira.

#281 (Answering phantom’s question as to if someone would be ready to lynch Boro) Says Boro has been unsettling to her – but that is more of a gut feeling. Wouldn’t mind voting him. No read on Glirdy.

#293 Votes Boro.


And that's it. She's consistent and I can't see her as that suspicious. At least reading through those few posts made me a bit less suspicious of her. But I'd sure love to see her contribute a bit more. And it is possible her reaction to Lottie & Sally was a planned defence - and if she is in cahoots with tp then phantom's sudden drive to lynch Boro might be understandable (Cel had said earlier she suspects him so it would be easy for her to follow that line of voting). But I think that scenario (the latter one) to be a bit far-fetched.

But like I said, I'm a bit less woried about Celuien now.


I've noted several things to comment on, not least of which is Nogrod and his insistence on leaving everything to the Seer. He's mentioned it at least twice now - "Leave Phantom to the Seer! Leave Sally to the Seer!" - and I call shenanigans. Nogrod, you're being absurd.Tell me Shasta, why not to wait for the seer and be cool with it? Give me one good reason. And first of all think...

[the phantom]

REP VOTING DAY 1:

Sally-->Phantom
Lottie-->Phantom (2)
Rune-->Lommie
Greenie-->Nerwen
Nog-->Izzy
Mira-->Phantom (3)
Boro-->Wilwa
Lommie-->Greenie
Steve-->Greenie (2)
Dun-->Boro
Shasta-->Izzy (2)
Legate-->Nerwen (2)
Cel-->Foley
Phantom-->Cel
Nerwen-->Lommie (2)
Wilwa-->Lommie (3)
Foley-->Cel (2)
Izzy-->Wilwa (2)

REP VOTING DAY 2:

Nerwen-->Shasta
Rune-->Steve
Green-->Steve (2)
Nog-->Legate
Steve-->Legate (2)
Lommy-->Nog
Inzil-->Shasta (2)
Wilwa-->Foley
Legate-->Foley (2)
Shasta-->Nerwen
Sally-->Nog (2)
Phantom-->Legate (3)

*******************************

LYNCH VOTING DAY 1:

Lommy-->Lottie (3)
Green-->Sally (2)
Nerwen-->Sally (3)
Nerwen-->Boro (1)
Celuien-->Boro (3)
Wilwa-->Sally (4)
Wilwa-->Lottie (4)
Izzy-->Lottie (6)

*******************************

And now, some observations-

(1) I'm not sure I entirely understand the Rep vote of Legate today. From beginning to end of this day he generally seems to believe I am an Orc, and yet he handed his vote to Foley who has attacked no one other than me this game. Not to mention that she didn't put in an appearance yesterday and said she would barely be around today, and so really, how much time does that give her to catch up on reading and change her opinions?

I am not trying to be insulting and say that Foley is predictable and a tool to be used (she seems quite independent), but in this specific situation where she was so very very against me yesterday and will have little time to change her views today, I can't help but suspect she's being taken advantage of here. And then when she votes me (if I'm lynched) Legate can act all sad and justified, "See, I was right, he was innocent, and I didn't vote for him," and pretend that he had nothing to do with killing me.

(2) Same with Wilwa naturally, who also voted for Foley. From what I've seen she hasn't exactly been after me today. She's been more wishy-washy, sort of the old "I can see your point about how he might not be trustworthy" but then "Oh but this doesn't make him look bad". About the only certain thing I saw from her regarding me is that she didn't want to make me a Rep. But to vote for Foley given her very obvious leanings and time restraints- I've got to think Wilwa actually wants me dead.

(3) If Sally is innocent, then the lynch voting from yesterday... Celuien and Green would be the more obvious votes to save Lottie, while Nerwen and Wilwa would be the careful and subtle votes to save Lottie.

Green straight up tossed out the second one of the duo (Sally-Lottie), while Celuien seeing a chance to lynch Boro put him into a tie for the lead.

Nerwen put Sally into a tie with Lottie and then used her other vote to nudge up Boro (his first vote)- a move much less obvious than tossing two votes onto one of them.

Then Wilwa was perhaps the most calculating of all. Had she used both votes on Sally, it still would not have put Lottie out of lynching, as Izzy could've tied them and I believe had stated at that stage that she favored lynching Lottie, not to mention that I was around and had listed Sally (but not Lottie) on my list of people I definitely did not want to lynch, and so Wilwa would have assumed that if I wished to avoid a double lynch I would've lynche Lottie ahead of Sally. Also, giving them each only one vote also kept the door open for the double lynch with Boro, as I had indeed been shopping him as a candidate. Wow... when I think about this and write it out, Wilwa's vote, if she's a SoE, looks downright brilliant given the situation.

[satansaloser2005]

Then Wilwa was perhaps the most calculating of all. Had she used both votes on Sally, it still would not have put Lottie out of lynching, as Izzy could've tied them and I believe had stated at that stage that she favored lynching Lottie, not to mention that I was around and had listed Sally (but not Lottie) on my list of people I definitely did not want to lynch, and so Wilwa would have assumed that if I wished to avoid a double lynch I would've lynche Lottie ahead of Sally. Also, giving them each only one vote also kept the door open for the double lynch with Boro, as I had indeed been shopping him as a candidate. Wow... when I think about this and write it out, Wilwa's vote, if she's a SoE, looks downright brilliant given the situation.

See what I mean? She's an evil, evil muffin and needs to be eaten....erm, lynched.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Nerwen's theory about phorc being the OoUA, offering his help to Lottie, has merit, I think. I was considering him being the OoUA anyway. I do wonder, though, why Phantom would attach himself so early on to Lottie, of all people, if this theory is correct. Unless Lottie slipped hideously early that she was evil and no one but Phantom caught it. Just seems weird.

#447 - Legate's notion about analyzing voting patterns is a good one and well thought-out, I think. However, this sentence -
This "review" was actually quite good and helped me to once again think of the situation there better. I must say that Nerwen is right here that indeed the double-vote from both sally and Lottie is not so improbable to have been from two SoE. Still, just the sort of general, well, perhaps probability, makes it easier for me to imagine sally as innocent.
- raises my hackles a bit. It seems very wishy-washy where Sally is concerned. I can't tell yet if he's preparing for Sally to flip innocent or preparing to look good if she flips Elf, but it looks like he's preparing for something here.

The rep pool seems nice, a good mix of people whom I trust (Legate), almost trust (Nog, Foley, Steve) and don't trust (Shasta).
My feelings are so hurt. :(

The problem here is that there is also another logical explanation. So let's leave this matter to the seer, honestly.
The Seer can't win this game by themselves. I fail to understand why you continually insist on leaving this-or-that to the Seer, who might have other priorities. The rest of this post (#454) just states the obvious - "We could do with an analysis of Lottie." Nogrod is looking elven to me right now.

Shasta - uses 90% of his energy arguing with tp.
Well, someone needs to drive home the point that, no, you can't have everything your way. Everyone else (except Nerwen) seems too intimidated!

#464 - I don't like how Sally seems to be trying to take credit for the Lottie lynch early in this post. It reads like "Look guys, I thought Lottie was evil just as much as you guys did, honest!"

This point here, though, makes sense to me -
Greenie says she voted Nerwen because she is “independent-minded and clever” and says that putting a good Nerwen in charge is a good choice, while putting an evil Nerwen in charge can show us more about her character; either way (re: Nerwen’s alignment) Greenie is sure that voting Nerwen is a good idea. What concerns me here is that this is exactly the reasoning that I gave for Phantom. Greenie has been accusatory of me for my vote, yet hers was for the same reasons (though granted with more “evidence” behind it).[quote]

Greenie, do you have a comment? Oh, I see you answered this very thing in #468. Hmm. This reply makes sense, but I'm not sure if it really has to do with Sally's point.

#469 is more of Nogrod telling everyone "Back off from Phantom and Sally, guys, the Seer will check them, nothing to see here!" Curiouser and curiouser. He'd rather have them checked than lynch either one, and I don't see any real reason for that to be the case. We lynch those who are suspicious - that's how the game is played. Is there some kind of boundary line that I missed, where if someone is too suspicious they should be Seer-dreamt instead of lynched, just to be sure? I'm confused.

[quote=Nogrod]Tell me Shasta, why not to wait for the seer and be cool with it? Give me one good reason. And first of all think...

Since no-lynching is not an option, we have to lynch someone every day. We can't just sit around and ignore people who are acting suspiciously and just take the attitude of "oh, they're suspicious, but we should be absolutely positive before we lynch them" - we're handing our heads to the Elves on a mithril platter if we do. Last I checked, this was not a game of "wait-for-the-Seer" and I don't recall you taking such an attitude in the past.

And stop hinting that you're the Seer. I'm virtually positive you're not. It looks more like you're planning a fake-reveal as an Elf/OoUA.

Edit; X'ed with Phorc and Sally.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Phantom-

Re (1) - If all this is the case, why did you vote for Legate for representative?

[Nogrod]

phantom: stop that "I'm the known orc and everyone's having a conspiracy to lynch me" -parade, please.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Also, all this suspicion of Wilwa has the feel of a bandwagon to it. Especially after Phantom hopped on (I was going to say Sally as well but I think she's actually been suspecting the Muffin most of the day). I probably won't be voting her today. Ideally I'd like to lynch Sally, but I don't think Legate and Nogrod are going to go for it, and to beat their five (should they choose to vote together), Eonwe, Folwren, and myself would all have to vote the same way. I think Eonwe was in the "Lottie being an elf makes Sally look better" camp, and it's looking like Folwren may not be here to vote at all, so... Hm. I need to think.

[the phantom]

Re (1) - If all this is the case, why did you vote for Legate for representative?
Because, for starters, I don't know that this was what he was trying to do. It's just a theory I wanted to hear him answer. Plus, I didn't think he'd outright stab me in the back even if he is evil. Not his style (as evidenced by my accusation- I see him as being much sneakier). Self-preservation, ya know. Also this is the first chance I've had to fully think and respond to all the Rep votes.
phantom: stop that "I'm the known orc and everyone's having a conspiracy to lynch me" -parade, please.
Sorry Nog, but when someone gets elected who is as good a lock as anyone in the village to vote for you, you tend to look at it closely. And nowhere in that entire post do I tell people that I am "the known Orc", unless of course you are referring to the fact that for my accusation to make sense I would naturally have to be an Orc, but that goes without saying. We all base our suspicions and defenses upon the fact that we ourselves are innocent (and we can't hope for anyone to believe our theories if we aren't first viewed as such). We can't help but do so as that is the only fact we know. So really, your chiding is not at all necessary.

(edit: missing line)

[the phantom]

Also, all this suspicion of Wilwa has the feel of a bandwagon to it. Especially after Phantom hopped on
I didn't "hop on". I left immediately after the Rep voting was over last night and I've been very busy ever since. Just a few posts up where I posted the vote count- that was the first time I had really taken a look at the Rep votes, and Wilwa's vote stood out to me. And when I examined her lynch vote from yesterday working from a new angle (I was wanting to suspect her after her Rep vote) her lynch vote looked suddenly more suspicious to me.

Yes, I realize that leap may be partly flawed due to the "If you're looking at something already expecting or wanting to find guilt/innocence you WILL find it", but that does not negate the logic of my breakdown of her voting. Yes, in my suspecting of her Rep vote I may be erring on the side of self-importance, but my lynch vote breakdown looks quite good to me.

[Nogrod]

Also, all this suspicion of Wilwa has the feel of a bandwagon to it. Especially after Phantom hopped on (I was going to say Sally as well but I think she's actually been suspecting the Muffin most of the day).I do agree with this bandwagoning feeling and I don't like it... But still to me she looks like the best option toDay. And I'm not going to shy away from reasonable odds of getting an elf lynched only because some others agree. Look at my post #469 as I came back online after reading D1 at home. And read it concerning Wilwa. Also, before assessing tp as "just hopping on a bandwagon", please read what he says about Wilwa's voting. It makes a lot of sense (well of course as I had reached the same conclusion myself :)).

So rather than say: x is bandwagoning, please tell me where the stated suspicion goes wrong. If we who think her suspicious are missing an important point, then please share it so that we don't lynch an innocent.

X'd with tp

[wilwarin538]

So I have a Glirdanpie visiting me at the moment, but he'll be returning to his secret lair shortly. Once I get back I will be able to contribute more for the rest of the day.

[Nogrod]

Btw. Shasta - and ayone not thinking about this before, how about you really considered this...
Beginning on Night Three, the orc of unknown allegiance will receive intelligence based on xis decision of allegiance (which xe will make via PM on Day Two). If this tricksy orc chooses to ally xerself with the Sons of Elrond, xe will learn the identity of one Son of Elrond per Night until each Son is revealed. The Sons of Elrond will be notified that this orc is now playing for their side, but they will not be given the player's identity. If this orc chooses to ally xerself with the village, xe will receive the names of the players the seer has dreamt of, but not their roles. The seer will be notified that this orc is now playing for their side, but they will not be given the player's identity. The orc of unknown allegiance appears as as such to the seer, should xe be dreamt of. If the seer dreams of xim before xe chooses sides, the seer will be updated as to xer side once xe has chosen. The orc of unknown allegiance MUST choose a side on Day Two and may not remain neutral.You all know the choice has been made toDay...

[Nogrod]

++ Wilwa ++

Mainly because of what I said in #469.

In short:

Her actions as a decent orc do not make a lot of sense (she said she would prefer lynching Lottie but ended up sharing the votes between Lottie & Sally) - and she sneaked away leaving the stage for the others - possibly elves (an orc W wouldn't have known who Izzy & tp were) - to act on at such a crucial moment of a threeway tie (and only 25 minutes to the DL).

If she is an elf her actions make a lot of sense: tactical vote-choice in a desperate situation: she couldn't vote for Boro without looking very suspicious, just trying to save Lottie might backfire as tp would save Sally if he could, and actually just voting Lottie would mean killing a mate. Also skipping away from the last minutes looks like elvish to me, meaning she didn't want to be forced to make the final choice. Just look above how tough the situation would have been.

[Nogrod]

No one around, so time to home and bed then.

All the sense and sensibility to you reps!

[satansaloser2005]

*pops in*

Headache and internet troubles (one seemingly a side effect yet from earlier this week, the other just hateful routers) so I'm going to be gone for a bit. I'm hoping to be back, but certainly don't depend on it, as I can't promise my return.

*pops out*

P.S. Nog, go to bed! <3

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

(1) I'm not sure I entirely understand the Rep vote of Legate today. From beginning to end of this day he generally seems to believe I am an Orc, and yet he handed his vote to Foley who has attacked no one other than me this game. Not to mention that she didn't put in an appearance yesterday and said she would barely be around today, and so really, how much time does that give her to catch up on reading and change her opinions?

I am not trying to be insulting and say that Foley is predictable and a tool to be used (she seems quite independent), but in this specific situation where she was so very very against me yesterday and will have little time to change her views today, I can't help but suspect she's being taken advantage of here. And then when she votes me (if I'm lynched) Legate can act all sad and justified, "See, I was right, he was innocent, and I didn't vote for him," and pretend that he had nothing to do with killing me.
I voted Foley simply because I think her very innocent, one of the most, and also hoped to learn more about her thoughts of people, because I assumed that when she would be among the Reps, she would be interacting with them and with the votes they cast or wish to cast. I would have liked to learn her opinions that way too. I wanted to make her a Rep already yesterday for the same reasons. I didn't know that she is not going to be around toDay, I would have chosen differently.

Aside from that, you are getting rather paranoid (the second paraghraph). If I wanted to lynch you, I could have done so by myself anyway.

My general temper or my overtired temper at 3am to 6am? :rolleyes:
Not that, actually, I didn't mean your personal temper :) but, well, I don't know what is the word for it in English. Basically the mood of behavior in which you are during the game.

Now... I have re-read the posts of Cel, Rune, Inzil and Wilwa and after considering them, I am thinking of letting Rune be for toDay, also because it anyway does not seem that he would be getting any lynch-support. Now looking at his posts with a bit of distance, what concerns me the most is that he actually does not seem to be too conflict-y, not meddling himself much into the affairs, rather dipping his fingers and staying sort of back, or that's the feeling I get. But I actually became even more interested in seeing him actually vote sometime (depending what the situation is, though, and if he does not make me suspect him more). I do not agree with him on many things, but that is not a problem. I just have a few questionmarks hovering over his motives. That is actually the bigger problem in Celuien's case. She has indeed said very little this far, but still even with her few posts, and mainly her votes, she remains a suspect to me. Then again, she really has not showed this far, in which case I would prefer her to at least respond or something. Inzil is enigmatic, he actually seems rather commited, e.g. his change in suspicion of wilwa after her votes looks genuine, but at points the subjects he focuses on are more questionable. Lastly, wilwa has said some things I would echo, but again some which make me uneasy or asking about her motives, and last of all her votes with the bit of alibistic tone. We'd know a lot more about her if we knew sally's role, but then, guess that will have to wait (and I am not for lynching sally just in order to learn more, although her death would surely be enlightening).

Shall be around for a while yet. This will be a difficult voting in the end, actually.

EDIT: x-ed with Nog, his vote and sally

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right, I have been wondering for a while whether there is a chance to use the advantage of three votes so that it would reflect my order of suspicion, but at the same time leave it possible for others to vote still too. I could not think of anything especially bright, though. I am thinking about voting for Cel, even though I don't like the fact that she is not around to respond - then again, who knows if she will be and if I think of all the quiet Wolves, my heart really tells me to vote for her. I wouldn't mind wilwa either, if it came to that, and if somebody else wants to lynch her, they still can do it, even after I cast all my votes for Cel. I think Shasta wanted to go with sally, which is an idea I am not so fond of - and here I think the limits my votes set would express my opinion pretty well: he could not lynch her alone, he'd need at least somebody else to beat my votes for that.

Okay, so yes, this is what I am going to do - vote for Celuien.

++all three votes for Celuien+++

Good Night, Cave, and let's hope for the best.

[Eönwë]

I'm sorry, I haven't had much of a chance to get online at all today, and when I have tried to go on this thread I had the time to do more than read.

I'm catching up now, but here are some of my thoughts so far:


Won't vote for:
Shasta- He seems to speak sense in an innocent way. Though I thought he was evil on early Day 1. I definitely need to reread his posts when I get a chance.
Lommy- Seems a little less innocent than yesterDay, but still makes sense and says a lot that I agree with.
Greenie- Not so sure about her. She felt very innocent yesterDay, but she doesn't so much toDay. She'll be another for me to reread.
Legate- He does seem a bit unclear/abstract at times, but I don't think he's evil.
Phantom- However much he's annoyed me, I can't actually see him being evil.
Inzil- I can never read him, but so far I can't see anything bad about him.
Rune- Just looks like he's having a bit of fun (and isn't that what this is about?), in an innocentish way.

Haven't seen enough:
Kath
Celuien
Mira
Foley- She's been around more than the ones above, but I can't really get a read on her yet.
Nog- See Foley, and he doesn't seem any more suspicious to me than usually does.

No idea (so most likely won't vote just yet):
Nerwen- Not sure whether I like or dislike her, but she's leaning innocent for now.

People who don't look so good:
Sally- As than the early rep-vote yesterDay, her responses just don't seem honest. However, because of the Lottie thing, I don't think she would be as likely to be an Elf, though there still is enough of a possibility for me to be willing to vote for her.
Wilwa- Everything she says makes me more convinced of her Elvishness. And she split her vote yesterDay when she could have used them both on Lottie, which seems like a very Elvsih thing to do, as I said earlier (She can cover herself by having voted an elf, but didn't use all her voting power to actually get her killed).

edit: fixed formatting and Xed with many (including 3 votes for Xed), though that doesn't matter since I haven't caught up fully anyway.

[wilwarin538]

general tone of breathless gaiety is reminiscent of her wolf-style



wilwa - is playing a little ... 'gleefully' is my word for it which can mark wolvishness.

Where are you getting this from? I feel like I've been rather grumpy this game, and snarky and maybe a bit annoyed, that's certainly closer to how I feel.

See what I mean? She's an evil, evil muffin and needs to be eaten....erm, lynched.

Cupcakes taste better. *noms*

But seriously, I would much prefer it if you lynched Sally. I believe lots of people have said that my role will be more obvious if you knew her's, so go for her. People have only wanted to lynch me for toDay, but Sally has been a possible lynch choice both Days. If you lynch me toDay then you'll just return to Sally tomorrow, which will result in you spending 3 Days talking about lynching her. So just get it over with now, it seems innevitable anyway, and if her role will shed some sort of light on me, might as well let me live one more Day just to see. Right?

Anyway. I would also approve of a Mira lynch, since she hasn't been around much anyway, I'd hate to see an Elf get far by just staying under the radar. But not Celuien, I think she's innocent.

x'ed with Legate and Steve

[Eönwë]

Having just read Nerwen's Wilwa post and looked at the voting, I have to say that it's unlikely that my top two suspects are both Elves together. Wilwa's vote put both Lottie and Sally in first place, and though it would make her look really innocent if they both turn out to be Elves, I don't think they would have wanted us to find out that they were both Elves (i.e., by getting them lynched). So basically, unless Wilwa was playing extremely riskily, she and Sally probably aren't Elves together.

Which means that one of my choices probably isn't an Elf. And right now, I think that's more likely to be Sally.

So if nothing really happens soon my votes will probably be for Wilwa.

[the phantom]

If I wanted to lynch you, I could have done so by myself anyway.
Oh, I know you could, but I was just saying that it'd be more subtle and clever for you to just vote for someone likely to vote for me (as you did) and then use your three votes on someone no one has voted for (as you did) leaving the door wide open for me to be lynched. With two vocal anti-phantom reps (Foley & Shasta) you might've even bet on it. It just totally seems like something that I would do as a baddie. If you are a baddie- kudos for the scheme. If you're a goodie, I will have no choice but to fly to Europe after the game and punch you. :p
Aside from that, you are getting rather paranoid
The threat of being lynched tends to do that to someone. :p

But I did read your explanation and I do concede that it may be true that you did not remember that Foley wouldn't be able to be here much. I'm fairly certain that I didn't remember that fact until late in the day myself. But you still had to have remembered that if you could take one thing away from her the first day, it was "I don't like Phantom". So still... bleh... but this will be something to revisit when people know more, especially if the voting goes precisely as I outlined.