Numenoreans attacking the Valar

[the phantom]

Didn't Tolkien say that Ar Pharazon and the Numenoreans had put together the greatest army the world had ever seen?

Now, wouldn't that include any army that Melkor ever had? And the army that came from Valinor to finally put down Angband?

If so, how can we assert that the Valar were capable of dealing with the situation?

And as far as the chap that said "For none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Ea", he was full of crap. A Vala is not some special unkillable race. A Vala is just an Ainu, and if an Ainu becomes incarnate then he can be killed.

Fingolfin wounded Melkor's foot permanently. Thorondor scarred him. He was open to harm. So the fact is Feanor and the Noldor were perfectly able to overcome Melkor. It could have been done. They came darn close a couple times. Perhaps they would have succeeded if Mandos hadn't doomed them to failure.

If the herald had said "For none of the Valar will thou overcome..." it would've been more accurate.

Unless of course he was referring to the fact that Melkor and his works and stain could never be completely eradicated by Feanor, but seeing as not even the Valar could do that it hardly seems like a point worth making.

[Findegil]

Some seperated points:
About Elrond and Maglor: Elrond was at the time of the war porbably old enough to take his own decissions and go on with independant actions. Such as taking part in a gathering of forces when his forster-father held back.

And as far as the chap that said "For none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Ea", he was full of crap. A Vala is not some special unkillable race. A Vala is just an Ainu, and if an Ainu becomes incarnate then he can be killed.

This seems wrong to me in two ways. The Valar in Valinor were not incarnated. Thus Ar-Pharazôn and his army might have had a hard time to got hold on them. And as Sauron did examplify, it does not kill an Ainu if you kill the body of his incarnation.

Anyway as often the quote is not perfectly clear as we have to define first what "overcome" means. And seeing the history of Arda the quote was never falsified: Non of the Valar was ever overcome by any of the children of Eru without help from other Ainur.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by the phantom

And as far as the chap that said "For none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Ea", he was full of crap. A Vala is not some special unkillable race. A Vala is just an Ainu, and if an Ainu becomes incarnate then he can be killed.

Fingolfin wounded Melkor's foot permanently. Thorondor scarred him. He was open to harm. So the fact is Feanor and the Noldor were perfectly able to overcome Melkor. It could have been done. They came darn close a couple times.

But the Valar still in Valinor weren't incarnate. They couldn't have been attacked in the first place. Melkor was stuck in his incarnate form (as the Morgoth) permanently, due to his corruption of Arda, and couldn't change or renew his form. Even when Gandalf, a mere Maia had his body killed, he could return as if nothing had happened (he was allowed to by the Valar, but the power to do so was in himself).

If the Valar did choose to make themselves incarnate they could make themselves into almost unbeatable foes. And if they ever got injured they could just change body. It's not part of them the same way that it is for the Children of Illuvatar. I'm sure even if Morgoth's incarnate form got killed, he would still be alive (if you can call it that), but would just be a weak spirit, unable to incarnate himself again. Morgoth stayed in his body because that was the only body he could have.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Findegil

The Valar in Valinor were not incarnated. Thus Ar-Pharazôn and his army might have had a hard time to got hold on them. And as Sauron did examplify, it does not kill an Ainu if you kill the body of his incarnation.

It depends upon the degree of incarnation. The Valar never did more than wrap themselves in physical forms, where as Melkor became incarnate to the point that he could be chained up and even executed. Sauron as well manifest himself physically (the Ring) to the point that he could be destroyed beyond repair.

Morgoth was most certainly vulnerable to physical attack, therefore the business of telling Feanor that he couldn't possibly overcome him was a bit silly. Elves killed Balrogs didn't they? And weren't Balrogs the same form of being? We don't read about Balrogs popping back to life immediately after being killed.

But as far as the Valar (Manwe and them) I agree that they could've just gone to spirit mode and Ar Pharazon wouldn't have been able to touch them. But what good is that? Ar Pharazon and the Numenoreans still could've slain all the Elves in Valinor and occupied everything. Sure, you can argue that a spirit can't be slain, but I can argue back that a spirit can't swing a sword, so I'm not sure how much good that does.

Originally Posted by Steve

I'm sure even if Morgoth's incarnate form got killed, he would still be alive (if you can call it that), but would just be a weak spirit, unable to incarnate himself again.

So you agree that Feanor and them could have rendered Morgoth pretty much impotent. If you reduce him to a weak spirit no longer capable of taking over the world, then I'd say you overcame him.

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by the phantom

But as far as the Valar (Manwe and them) I agree that they could've just gone to spirit mode and Ar Pharazon wouldn't have been able to touch them. But what good is that? Ar Pharazon and the Numenoreans still could've slain all the Elves in Valinor and occupied everything. Sure, you can argue that a spirit can't be slain, but I can argue back that a spirit can't swing a sword, so I'm not sure how much good that does.

Begging your pardon, but doesn't the very spirit-ness of the Valar make them powerful? I mean, over nature. Melian, a Maia, was able to defend her kingdom by her maze. Imagine if (how many were the Valar and Valier again?) and infinite more Maiar use their spirit powers over nature and such to defend their ground. And the Elves. One mustn't forget that many of them were born under the light of the Trees, which made them extra tougher.

I know you can all argue that the Elves might not be that skilled in war as they were in peace and the arts, but the host of the Valar that came to Beleriand an age before Ar Pharazon must have had some pretty good swords at least.

[Pitchwife]

Lindale says it: power over nature. The Valar shaped the face of Arda. When you can build mountains, rule the Ocean, control tempests and what not else, you don't need swords and armies to deal with a mad king and a couple of hundred thousand (or even a million) warriors - ifyou are allowed to. And whether or not the Valar and Maiar could be killed , Ar-Pharazôn and his lot certainly could.

[littlemanpoet]

The Valar had enough power. This was not a matter of power, but of authority. The Numenoreans were Children of Iluvatar; the Valar had no right over their fate; so Manwe rightly stepped aside and asked Iluvatar to deal with His children Himself. Case closed.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath

But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others new-come out of the east, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.

There were a lot of Men marching with Morgoth in the War of Wrath, and the Valar didn't mind killing them at all, so it cannot have been a matter of lack of authority.

I think the phantom is right. Ar-Pharazôn's army was the largest that ever existed. (Keep in mind, just before it did not defeat Sauron's army, which was at the peak of its strength at that time, but made it flee without battle! It instilled more fear in them than Sauron did.) It must have been strong enough to, if not defeat the Valar, to at least inflict damage on Valinor that was beyond what the Valar were willing to suffer, maybe beyond the Valar's ability to heal.

Tolkien is unclear why the Valar called upon Eru, he only states the fact. But that also means it is never stated that the Valar were powerful enough to defeat Pharazôn and his army and therefore must have had a different reason to do so. Case not closed.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

There were a lot of Men marching with Morgoth in the War of Wrath, and the Valar didn't mind killing them at all, so it cannot have been a matter of lack of authority.

They were part of the army of Morgoth. I think that if it's Vala against Vala, then they're allowed to fight, but it's a little bit unfair for the super-powerful beings that the Valar are to to obliterate mere Men. Also, remember that in the War of Wrath there were probably dragons, and depending on how you look at it, possibly Balrogs to fight, not to mention other Maiar. And let's not forget that this was Morgoth, and he may have given his men power.

Also, they were trying to capture Morgoth, so if anyone stood in their way then it's their problem, so to speak. They could abandon if they want to. The Valar at least probably gave those who wanted to a chance to retreat. Anyway, in the War of Wrath, they just killed the warriors that were going to fight anyway, whereas with Numenor, everyone was killed.

Thirdly, I think that Manwe wasn't sure to what extent he should go: whether to just stop the boats coming, whether to destroy the boats, or whether he should go father. So he just did the sensible thing and let Eru sort it out, instead of doing something that might have caused problems later. Manwe probably by now knew that he didn't really understand evil, so he passed over the decision to someone who could, the same way it should have been when Gandalf left Saruman to his own knowledge of the Ring(s).

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

The Valar had enough power. This was not a matter of power, but of authority. The Numenoreans were Children of Iluvatar; the Valar had no right over their fate; so Manwe rightly stepped aside and asked Iluvatar to deal with His children Himself. Case closed.

agreed! The symbolic gulf that can be imagined to separate the power resources(both formal authority and informal might) of the Ainur in comparison to the Children of the One is probably on par with the vast interstellar distances which separate planetary systems orbiting separate stars... As the consistent cohesion of the material substances of Arda depends upon the presence of the Ainur, we can surmise that their Order exercises a total governance over the organization of these physical substances, probably at the quantum level and other dimensions of space-time to which we do not presently have scientific access even in our late modern Age. To say nothing of their unmatched understanding of the psychological makeup of both Elves, Men, and Dwarves. They could easily do away with the bodies of any number of Menfolk without expending significantly their own inherent strength. The issue is the "legal" right to dominate and destroy utterly the Children, which the One has not delegated to them.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I wonder if the wholesale destruction of Beleriand was caused by the Hosts of the West, or rather by Morgoth? It would seem to me that Morgoth's nihilistic insanity, and the power of his original being dispersed throughout Arda's fabric, would be entirely consistent with him "going nuclear" and annihilating great chunks of real estate in an effort to thwart his enemies.