Numenoreans attacking the Valar

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Now, I agree with LMP that it is possible that the Valar might have indeed lacked the authority to fight the Numenoreans (though you'd think they had the right to defend their land). But I don't agree that it is a given that they had the power. According to the text, it was the greatest force of war ever. Ever.

I believe it was simply a matter of the Valar surrendering authority to Eru because they were not allowed to kill Children of Illuvatar, plain and simple. If you remember, Eonwe forbade anyone to harm Maglor and Maedhros, even though they committed murder in the camp of the Valar after the War of Wrath.

It was not in the Valar's power to destroy the Numenoreans. And if you think about it, what does it matter if they had the greatest army ever assembled? If it were, in fact, within the Valar's scope of authority to destroy the Numenoreans, then all that had to be done was for Ulmo to unleash Osse on the Numenorean ships before they landed. A cataclysmic tsunami was all that was necessary to drown the whole shebang.

In any case, the Numenorean army was not 'technically' killed by Eru either. They were buried under hills, and there to await the final battle. It would seem to be much like the King of the Dead and the Oathbreakers never truly 'passing away' until they fulfilled their oath. Sort of a suspended animation, if you like.

[littlemanpoet]

I think Morthoron makes some good points. Consider, Ulmo himself could probably wipe out the entire armada with a tidal wave.

But regarding the authority of the Valar. The Numenoreans are a special case of Human in Middle Earth. Having just reread LotR (for the 6th time ), I was struck by how many times and ways Tolkien makes this point, be it in reference to Aragorn, to the Dunedain of the north, or to Imrahil and is kin from Dol Amroth. All of this to say that the Numenoreans were not typical of all men. The Valar themselves were the givers of Numenor to the Dunedain (correct me if I'm wrong). This placed them in a somewhat trickier (dicier?) position in regard to their authority vis a vi Iluvatar's. Therefore, the Valar did have some right relative to the land on which the Numenoreans dwelt. Nevertheless, these still were Children of Iluvatar. So the Valar had, one could say, a tight little ethical bind to figure they're way through. Instead of make a wrong choice, they made the best choice and deferred the matter to Iluvatar.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

In any case, the Numenorean army was not 'technically' killed by Eru either. They were buried under hills, and there to await the final battle. It would seem to be much like the King of the Dead and the Oathbreakers never truly 'passing away' until they fulfilled their oath. Sort of a suspended animation, if you like.

He probably didn't want to see them "beyond the edges of Arda" (or whatever the quote is to say where Men go after they die) after what they'd done.

Were they like the Army of the dead, or were they just frozen in time? Because I'm sure that being stuck in a dark underwater cavern for a few thousand years is a pretty bad punishment.