Numenoreans attacking the Valar

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Ulmo make a giant tidal wave?

Yeah, kill all of the Elves in Alqualonde and Tol Eressea and any settlements on the coast of Middle-Earth. I'm sure the Valar would support that plan. .

Well, it seems the Valar silently supported Eru's plan to submerge Numenor under a great wave, so yeah. It seems the storm Eru whipped up had no effect on Alqualonde or Tol Eressea, nor did it do much damage to the coasts of Middle-earth. It's amazing what gods can do -- that whole omnipotence thing.

Again, if it were under the Valar's authority to punish the Numenoreans, then their ships would've been submerged as they were leaving port. They wouldn't even have made it to within sight of the Undying Lands. Osse delighted in storms, and when for a brief time he allied with Morgoth, the Belegaer Sea was utterly unsafe for ships.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by me

Ulmo make a giant tidal wave?

Yeah, kill all of the Elves in Alqualonde and Tol Eressea and any settlements on the coast of Middle-Earth. I'm sure the Valar would support that plan.

Originally Posted by Morth

Well, it seems the Valar silently supported Eru's plan to submerge Numenor under a great wave, so yeah. It seems the storm Eru whipped up had no effect on Alqualonde or Tol Eressea, nor did it do much damage to the coasts of Middle-earth. It's amazing what gods can do -- that whole omnipotence thing.

It didn't impact Alqua or TE because it was Eru doing it. He's just a teensy bit more powerful than the Valar.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by the phantom

It didn't impact Alqua or TE because it was Eru doing it. He's just a teensy bit more powerful than the Valar.

It wasn't that the Valar were incapable of fighting the Numenoreans, Mr. P., rather it was their inability to do so based on their level of authority in regards to the Children of Iluvatar.

Tulkas laughing, Orome in his wrath and Ulmo towering out of the sea would give even Sauron pause, had he bothered to get out of the boat. And speaking of Sauron, he led the Numenoreans onward because he knew they were going to be destroyed one way or another. You must remember that the Valar did not even fight in the War of Wrath; instead they sent as leader-by-proxy Eonwe the Herald, a Maia, and hosts of the Vanyar and Noldor (and most likely other Maiar as well). This army not only crushed Morgoth's forces (including Balrogs, dragons and trolls), but destroyed Beleriand so utterly that it sunk into the sea. Read the passage in the Silmarillion regarding how vast Morgoth's army was, yet still it was defeated by an army of Valinor that did not include the Valar in battle.

So, in reiteration, I don't think that defeat at the hands of the Numenoreans was the Valar's concern. Not at all. If anything, this is one more instance of Valaric interference that went awry. Much like in the 1st Age when the Valar dragged the elves off to Valinor so that they would be 'safe' (a move that many elves eventually begrudged), Numenor was once again an artificial attempt at safeguarding the 'chosen' Children of Iluvatar that backfired on the meddlesome Valar. Strange folk, the Valar: one moment they are interfering, passing dooms and whatnot, and the next you don't hear from them for an Age. Very inconsistent. In any case, Eru, irritated that he had to tinker with his divine plan, made damn sure there would be no more chosen people, and wiped Numenor off the map -- a lesson not only for the remaining Numenoreans, but also for the Valar. Their interference thereafter (because they couldn't help but continue meddling -- it was their foible), was reduced to sending the Istari -- not to trade blow for blow with Sauron, but inspire the free peoples to fight instead.

[Mnemosyne]

And speaking of Sauron, he led the Numenoreans onward because he knew they were going to be destroyed one way or another.

Yes, but I thought that not even Sauron expected the entire continent to be wiped out. Fleet, yes, Numenor itself, no.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

Yes, but I thought that not even Sauron expected the entire continent to be wiped out. Fleet, yes, Numenor itself, no.

Yes, Sauron often had a bad habit of underestimating his enemies. Like for instance, never considering in his darkest nightmares that someone might actually want to destroy his ring.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

You must remember that the Valar did not even fight in the War of Wrath; instead they sent as leader-by-proxy Eonwe the Herald, a Maia, and hosts of the Vanyar and Noldor (and most likely other Maiar as well). This army not only crushed Morgoth's forces (including Balrogs, dragons and trolls), but destroyed Beleriand so utterly that it sunk into the sea.

The Valar might not have participated in battle themselves, but their powers were clearly exerted. Elves and Orcs and Dragons are not able to destroy Beleriand, neither are, I daresay, mere Maiar, nor Morgoth alone, at this point in his existence.

The word "lesson" made me remember that one thread alatar revived last year (I especially liked Squatter's #71).

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

If anything, this is one more instance of Valaric interference that went awry. Much like in the 1st Age when the Valar dragged the elves off to Valinor so that they would be 'safe' (a move that many elves eventually begrudged), Numenor was once again an artificial attempt at safeguarding the 'chosen' Children of Iluvatar that backfired on the meddlesome Valar. Strange folk, the Valar: one moment they are interfering, passing dooms and whatnot, and the next you don't hear from them for an Age. Very inconsistent. In any case, Eru, irritated that he had to tinker with his divine plan, made damn sure there would be no more chosen people, and wiped Numenor off the map -- a lesson not only for the remaining Numenoreans, but also for the Valar. Their interference thereafter (because they couldn't help but continue meddling -- it was their foible), was reduced to sending the Istari -- not to trade blow for blow with Sauron, but inspire the free peoples to fight instead.

This doesn't quite sit right with me. From my reading, the Vanyar are considered to be the most blessed of all the Elves because they journeyed west and stayed. So this bit of "interference" doesn't seem to have been a bad thing. That some Elves begrudged the invitation of the Valar may say at least as much about these Elves as it does about the Valar.

I grant that both the invitation to the Elves and the creation of Numenor were in part to "save" these two groups from the shadow of Morgoth; but is that a bad thing?

As to not hearing from them for an Age, whose fault was that? Was it not because the Numenoreans fell to craving deathlessness?

And are you sure you are being fair by using the rather derotagory term, "meddling"? Did they not have the right and responsibility as the assigned caretakers of Aman to do precisely that? What was it about their "meddling" that was an evil? or a weakness?

And was Eru "irritated" at the Valar? Where do you get that from the Sil? And was his motivation so that there would be no more chosen people? Please give evidence.

Granted, the Valar appear to have learned hard lessons by the 3rd Age and therefore only sent the Five Istari, but can you really support your assertions with evidence from Tolkien's writings?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

This doesn't quite sit right with me. From my reading, the Vanyar are considered to be the most blessed of all the Elves because they journeyed west and stayed. So this bit of "interference" doesn't seem to have been a bad thing. That some Elves begrudged the invitation of the Valar may say at least as much about these Elves as it does about the Valar.

I suppose it is a matter of personal taste. The Vanyar were the most blessed? Why, because they sat at the bottom of Taniquetil and adored Manwe with endless blind praise? What did they accomplish? They seem rather dull, don't they? I'll take Feanor any day over a bunch of righteous brown-nosers.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I grant that both the invitation to the Elves and the creation of Numenor were in part to "save" these two groups from the shadow of Morgoth; but is that a bad thing?

Anytime one corrals folks for their own good, no good can come of it. It seems to me the major failing of the Valar was that they did not adequately eradicate Morgoth and his minions. They botched it on several occassions. And after each war with Morgoth, they left the people of Middle-earth alone to muddle through the mess the Valar left behind. Sauron managed to elude them twice, and the Valar ignored the fact, and basically ignored the struggling Children of iluvatar for huge stretches of time. Very sloppy in my opinion.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

As to not hearing from them for an Age, whose fault was that? Was it not because the Numenoreans fell to craving deathlessness?

The Valar allowed Sauron to consolidate his power after Morgoth's defeat in the War of Wrath (end of the 1st Age) until they sent the Istari in the 3rd Age. That is an entire age of indolence! The Numenorean's search for immortality has nothing to do with the Valar's silence. They did the same thing in the 1st Age, only begrudgingly aiding Middle-earth when Earendel brought them a silmaril as a bribe.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

And are you sure you are being fair by using the rather derotagory term, "meddling"? Did they not have the right and responsibility as the assigned caretakers of Aman to do precisely that? What was it about their "meddling" that was an evil? or a weakness?

See above. Like overly maternal or paternal parents, they restricted the elves and alloted them a few mean acres in Valinor. A rebellion of the sort that occurred was inevitable among creative and fiercely freedom-loving folk like the Noldor. Then to top it off, while they were coddling the Eldar, the Valar left mortal men all alone in the infancy of their race so that they could fall more readily under the dominion of Morgoth and his successor. It makes little sense, and their uncertainty moving forward is evidently a weakness.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

And was Eru "irritated" at the Valar? Where do you get that from the Sil? And was his motivation so that there would be no more chosen people? Please give evidence.

I was being facetious. But you have to admit, Eru went beyond merely punishing Ar-Pharazon and his army. He wiped Numenor off the map. Tolkien doesn't deal with Eru's motivation in behaving in such an arbitrary and all-encompassing manner, but one can derive a certain sense of wrath in Iluvatar that is not characteristic of the patient and benign, but still omnipotent, symphony conductor we beheld during the Ainulindalë. It seems he corrected an error on the part of the Valar, and from then on the Valar only dealt with Middle-earth through intermediaries (ie., the Istari).

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Granted, the Valar appear to have learned hard lessons by the 3rd Age and therefore only sent the Five Istari, but can you really support your assertions with evidence from Tolkien's writings?

When I have time, I'll delve a bit further.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I suppose it is a matter of personal taste. The Vanyar were the most blessed? Why, because they sat at the bottom of Taniquetil and adored Manwe with endless blind praise? What did they accomplish? They seem rather dull, don't they? I'll take Feanor any day over a bunch of righteous brown-nosers.

I was seeing it from their point of view rather than the reader's. The Vanyar have it best. However, I grant you that the Noldor are far more interesting to read about.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Anytime one corrals folks for their own good, no good can come of it. It seems to me the major failing of the Valar was that they did not adequately eradicate Morgoth and his minions. They botched it on several occassions. And after each war with Morgoth, they left the people of Middle-earth alone to muddle through the mess the Valar left behind. Sauron managed to elude them twice, and the Valar ignored the fact, and basically ignored the struggling Children of iluvatar for huge stretches of time. Very sloppy in my opinion.

It appears to me that you would have your cake and eat it too. On one hand you bemoan the meddling of the Valar, and on the other, you bemoan them leaving Middle Earth alone. You can't have it both ways, my good sir.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

It appears to me that you would have your cake and eat it too. On one hand you bemoan the meddling of the Valar, and on the other, you bemoan them leaving Middle Earth alone. You can't have it both ways, my good sir.

I was referring to two separate issues; therefore, I can have my cake with ice cream topped with hot fudge. ;p

The Valar's main fault is the haphazard manner in which they dealt with Morgoth and then Sauron, and I would suggest it was indeed their primary responsibility to secure Middle-earth against their evil encroachment so that the Children of Iluvatar could live their lives in peace. Had they managed to keep up pressure on the the two immortal baddies, there would have been no need to seclude the elves or the Numenoreans afterward. But it seems the Valar ran hot and cold: one minute they were hot for the chase, the next they sat on their celestial thumbs. Pretty poor stewards of Middle-earth in my estimation.