Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[Dakêsîntrah]

This thread was very interesting to read. Of course I could not read all of it. But it was very entertaining, so as to keep me up all night.

I do believe it makes logical sense to simply conclude that if the Witch-king and Gandalf ever did engage in a duel, it would be a stalemate.

One thing that Tolkien replicates is Biblical pneumatology or more closely the nature of angelology.

In Gandalf he seems to replicate to a degree the nature of Jesus Christ in the flesh, or even the angels that intervened in the flesh.

If you agree with my theology, and perhaps even Tolkien's, then we may throw a contrast of sorts into the mix between the natures of Gandalf and the WK, and between the natures of Jesus and Satan.

It seems Gandalf was incarnated in the flesh as Gandalf the Grey, and then *reincarnated later as the White. Much like Christ, in that I see Gandalf the Grey much like Jesus before his death. I see the clothing in white as symbolic of resurrection.

Tolkien would probably agree with me as to the nature of the Deity of Christ, in that Jesus was 100% divine yet 100% in the flesh of men. Same as Gandalf. Furthermore, it is true Gandalf always had the potential to use fully his divine powers. It is not that he was limited or restricted to the use of them while in bodily form. I believe the Valar did not really restrict him to the use of all things divine, just as God had not restricted Jesus during his lifetime. But in terms of both of their missions, their purpose were altogether different than showing off their divinity. If they were to suffer bodily on earth, then it would follow that if they were allowed to transcend the limitations of said physical body, it would have been violated and breached according to the natural laws of the said universe. They were not limited to no divine miracles, they certainly both did many, but they were all in the guise, under the manifestation of what the natural universe allowed.

Now we have the Witch-king, who Tolkien alludes had been demonically enhanced by Sauron. The Witch-king indeed was the Christian equivalent of the Anti-Christ, whom Satan also enhances, rather possesses (depends on how you view theology).

it is certainly correct to portray Gandalf as perhaps temporarily fearful of the Witch-king's presence. I would think Gandalf was more fearful of losing his body in a time where there was a dire need for his bodily presence during the siege of Minas Tirith. I think the WK certainly could have slain Gandalf's bodily form, but there is certainly no way the WK could have defeated Olorin, the Maia Spirit. If Jesus could be tempted, Gandalf could be fearful.

Conversely, I think that in terms of sorcery, Gandalf was stronger; but I doubt Gandalf as a Maia had any chance to really dispose of any Undead Nazgûl. They are neither living nor dead. So who can judge the living spirits, or for the Nazgûl specifically, neither living nor dead? Is it for the Valar to decide, or must that fall on Eru, Mandos? Are they stuck in some kind of limbo, some Abyss?

Someone pointed out why the WK would pull out a flaming sword against Gandalf. I think the WK stood no chance against Gandalf in terms of sorcery, but in terms of melee, the WK would actually stand a chance. But we can all imagine how this magically enhanced sword of the WK might be immune to such deflection or paralyzing spells of Gandalf. We know what happened to Aragorn's sword in Fangorn Forest. I think via melee, WK was confident he could overpower Gandalf in that surprise encounter.

I recall how the WK said he would 'break' Gandalf. I would presume breaking his fleshly body. I think the WK suspected that it was impossible to destroy Gandalf's actual spirit. Surely the WK isn't that stupid to confront Gandalf without the knowledge that he is a Maia. It is Sauron who probably informed the WK of this knowledge, and then possessed it, so it would be emboldened. Without the WK's direct possession via Sauron, you see him flee in the face of Gandalf, Glorfindel, and possibly Aragorn. The WK acting without the direct will of Sauron is just a Man stuck in limbo, whose only real weapon was fear of the unknown, something every man fears in real life, and I am sure was prevalent in Tolkien's own lifetime.

We know that Sauron at the time didn't physically 'possess' the Ring, but he did certainly always possess it spiritually. We say his will was poured into it, but when we speak of will, we speak of Spirit, for they are one and the same. This is Tolkien, who poured his will into the narratives, a will of his that was entrenched in orthodox theology.

To be honest, my Tolkien knowledge pales in comparison to all you folks on here. But I am well versed in Christian theology, and I can already see clearly where Tolkien may be coming from.

Now back to the hypothetical duel between the WK/Sauron and Gandalf: I really do see this as paralleling a hypothetical Jesus versus the Anti-Christ/Satan. You can think back to the temptation of Jesus by Satan. You ask: Why did not Jesus just destroy Satan right there and then while in the body? Well, that was not the Will of God. In like manner, Eru did not will Gandalf to destroy the WK - as I think it is not possible to "kill" a spirit, synonymous to the nature of a Spirit in Biblical Theology. Tolkien does not make mention any possible way for Eru or the Valar or the Maiar to vanquish spirits into nothingness. You ask why God cannot or will not destroy Satan to nothingness, yet his judgment is to be in chains for eternity. You ask why Melkor was not totally vanquished to nothingness, yet he was put in chains into the Void by the Valar. These spirits will always exist, but will be imprisoned in a Realm far outside the Divine or human realms that they cannot interfere.

Now to the breaking of the staff and the prostration of Gandalf in the movie: Yes, it strays from the book, but I see no problem here, considering what I have just said.

I see it quite feasible that the WK should break Gandalf's staff. It's all a symbolic act.
The Staff symbolises Gandalf's stewardship of Middle Earth - not so much a physical conduit to enhance his divine powers. I see the Staff as merely a physical item from that universe that served as a conduit for manifesting divine miracles via the guise of natural law. Much like the cloak of Christ served to act as a physical means whereby one could be healed.

It is a physical manifestation of Gandalf's title, and the WK knows via Sauron that the eradication of anything physically symbolic of his titular power granted while on ME AND Valinor, is worth more than just the physical body. Much like the 'breaking of Jesus' on the cross. A physical 'breaking' that was supposed to show what a failure he is to humanity, and that his mission was also a waste spiritually. And of course, a physically dead Gandalf would be of no immediate use in the siege of Minas Tirith. Hence, I think it is feasible that the WK breaks his staff first, as the body of Gandalf will wait as it is of second importance.

Now, probably Tolkien is turning in his grave at the change submitted by PJ and Co., but Tolkien was not inspired by God to write Middle Earth, so I have no fear to say some changes in the movie are fine, or may be even better.

The Nordic, Finnish or Anglo Saxon et cetera poems are timeless, and many of them like the Kalavala are classic canon material. Yet I find Tolkien replicating them and making changes for his fantasy story. Peter Jackson has his own interpretation, and is in its own right movie canon.

Best Regards

[Inziladun]

Well met, Dakêsîntrah, and interesting thoughts.
Just a few quick thoughts of my own.

Originally Posted by Dakêsîntrah

I do believe it makes logical sense to simply conclude that if the Witch-king and Gandalf ever did engage in a duel, it would be a stalemate.

Originally Posted by Dakêsîntrah

Conversely, I think that in terms of sorcery, Gandalf was stronger; but I doubt Gandalf as a Maia had any chance to really dispose of any Undead Nazgûl.

The Witch-king's vulnerablity to destruction is clear: he was rendered impotent by two mortals. Merry had his Barrow-blade, which had Númenórean spells upon it that apparently enhanced the damage done by it, but Éowyn had nothing but an ordinary sword.
The way I see it, Gandalf had ample power to do away with the WK, or any of the Nazgûl. Think of the manner in which he rescued Faramir from them:

But now the dark swooping shadows were aware of [Gandalf]. One wheeled towards him; but it seemed to Pippin that he raised his hand, and from it a shaft of white light stabbed upwards. The Nazgûl gave a long wailing cry and swerved away..

ROTK The Siege of Gondor

Gandalf was the self-described 'servant of the Secret Fire', and 'wielder of the flame of Anor'. The Nazgûl were said to specially fear fire, and Gandalf's fire would seem to be the worst they could imagine- divine fire from the West.

If mortals could bring about the WK's vanquishment, and Gandalf obviously possessed a power feared and avoided by the Nazgûl, it doesn't seem a question of could Gandalf have destroyed him, but why he failed to do so.

Throughout the books, Gandalf is bound to primarily using persuasion and his own intelligence to accomplish his goals, resorting to 'magic' only in direst need. Even in emergencies, he unleashes only the bare minimum of power necessary to get the job done. Gandalf, and the other Istari, were in Middle-earth not to fight Sauron and his forces militarily, but to direct resistance against him, military and otherwise. They were not allowed cavalier displays of raw power for no reason: that would have lead to their being followed out of fear, not wisdom; and that was the path of a Sauron. Gandalf knew the Men of Gondor and Rohan were still capable of fighting the immediate threat, and kept his power mostly veiled. We see brief flashes of it when he saves Faramir (twice), and earlier when he overthrows Saruman at Orthanc. When the Witch-king threatened to enter Minas Tirith itself, Gandalf blocked the gate, but no more.
What he would have done, had the Witch-king tried to press into the City, could still be debated, I suppose. But my feeling is that under no circumstances would he have allowed the Witch-king to enter, and we would have seen another flash of the White.

[Pitchwife]

Wow, Dakêsîntrah, that's an epic first post! I don't quite feel up to digging into the theological aspects you discussed so extensively, but I'd like to make a few minor comments:

Originally Posted by Dakêsîntrah

I think via melee, WK was confident he could overpower Gandalf in that surprise encounter.

He certainly was, but does that tell us something about Gandalf or about the WK's ignorance of who he was up against? He may have had a notion of who or what Gandalf the Grey was, but the contemptuous tone in which he adressed Gandalf doesn't sound to me as if he had any idea how his opponent had been changed and enhanced by being resurrected.
On a similar note, I agree Gandalf felt - maybe not exactly fearful, but certainly apprehensive of confronting the WK; but again, does that tell us something about the balance of power between them or rather about Gandalf's natural humility?

Originally Posted by Dakêsîntrah

I recall how the WK said he would 'break' Gandalf.

That must have been in the movie. In the book he said nothing of the sort.

Originally Posted by Dakêsîntrah

The Staff symbolises Gandalf's stewardship of Middle Earth

That's an interpretation of the staff I find both quite possible and quite attractive (and never mind that it doesn't play the least part in the movie). But if that was so, it's rather a strong argument against the WK's ability to break it. Breaking Gandalf's staff would be tantamount to symbolically (and in a mythological context, symbolically equals factually in my book) revoking his stewardship - just like Gandalf revoked Saruman's leadership of the Heren Istarion by breaking his staff in Isengard - , and the WK was in no position to do this; no one in Middle-earth was. Power isn't crucial here, authority is - or rather, authority is the only power that matters. Just like Gandalf could only break Saruman's staff after he'd been sent back and empowered as the new White Wizard, only those that had invested him with stewardship could have broken his own staff and revoked it.
Finally (and now I'm digging into the theology after all), I think you're actually weakening your own case by stressing the parallels between Gandalf and Jesus. Gandalf resurrected being killed a second time by the WK would be much like Jesus dying on the cross a second time after his resurrection. As Eliza Doolittle would say, Not bloody likely.
That is not to belittle the WK - he certainly was a formidable opponent and would certainly have made short shrift of any mortal (and most Elves) unaided by Númenórean blades and prophecy, but I just don't see any chance of him prevailing against Gandalf the White.

Originally Posted by Dakêsîntrah

To be honest, my Tolkien knowledge pales in comparison to all you folks on here.

Hey, no false modesty, please, or I'll think you're fishing for compliments!

P.S. x-ed with Zil, who is quite right, of course. Here we go again...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

P.S. x-ed with Zil, who is quite right, of course. Here we go again...

I know, I'm sorry.
But the idea that the WK, whose power was derived from Sauron (himself a diminished Maia) could be superior, or even on a level playing field with Gandalf, has on me the effect that saying Balrogs had wings would have on some others here.

I don't see much in the way of parallels between Gandalf's return and the Resurrection. I'm wary of delving too deeply into comparisions with Christianity here, but the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ were planned events, the purpose of which was to redeem mankind from sin.
Gandalf's sacrifice was, I think, incidental. He happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and was guiding and guarding the Ring-bearer, whose success was the key to the fulfillment of Gandalf's greater quest, the fall of Sauron. As far as Gandalf knew at that moment, he was the sole person present capable of facing the Balrog, and giving his companions an opportunity to escape. He then accepted the challenge, with the knowledge that the Balrog might well destroy his physical body. When that body did die, his selflessness and dedication to the cause for which he had been sent was duly noted by the Authority in the West, and he was allowed to return for a brief time to finish his task.

[Dakêsîntrah]

The Witch-king's vulnerablity to destruction is clear: he was rendered impotent by two mortals.

So you're inferring the Westernesse blade is able to 'kill' something neither living or dead? How does that work? I think Tolkien may have created for himself a little paradox.

I just don't think it would be in the nature of a sword, no matter what kind of magic enhances it. A sword is made to ultimately kill even in Tolkien's universe, but a physical weapon terminating a spiritual being is not logical.

Gandalf had Glamdring, but that apparently would not have any real effect on the WK.

So the Witch-king would temporarily stun Gandalf and mow him down with the flaming sword.

He may have had a notion of who or what Gandalf the Grey was, but the contemptuous tone in which he adressed Gandalf doesn't sound to me as if he had any idea how his opponent had been changed and enhanced by being resurrected.

Rather it seems to me that regardless whether WK went up against Gandalf the Grey or Gandalf the White, he would still have a chance at beating him with the enchanted sword. I think he could care less who Gandalf was bodily; but I don't think he was stupid enough not to realize Gandalf's innate divinity had risen in his Spirit. What the Witch-king could do however is wrench Gandalf's bodily authority or reputation away from him. And again, render Gandalf useless without bodily form.

But if that was so, it's rather a strong argument against the WK's ability to break it.

I don't see that at all. If we want to say one of Gandalf's sticks were fashioned in Lothlórien, why would something wrought from nature be impossible for WK to break?
I think it's impossible, yes, for WK to wrench Olorin's authority away as a Maia, but in the weak, flawed, flesh of Man it is possible.

On a side note, I really don't believe the Istari came into Middle Earth for the first time wielding staves. Their power was innate.

Just like Gandalf could only break Saruman's staff after he'd been sent back and empowered as the new White Wizard,

I think the Istari always had potential to usurp authority from themselves, so in the case of their wills to break another's staff, for example, it would not be possible unless one of them transgressed the purpose and responsibility of the Valar and ultimately of Eru. Saruman transgressed divine fiat and was judged accordingly.

Saruman could have easily broken Gandalf's staff at Orthanc. But Saruman is more cunning than to declare himself as having turned to the dark side. Rather he has convinced himself that evil, even Sauron, is really not evil, but a maligned interpretation of good that people have created and are thus ignorant of. And so, maybe his digressions with Gandalf can be negotiated to reach a compromise. Gandalf of course refuses, and so Saruman tortures and tempts his mind by imprisoning him on top of Orthanc.

To the Witch-king, a mere stick wrought from that world would be no trouble to break. It doesn't have any special magic enhancements that could resist him, that I am aware of. If a physical body can be broken, so can a physical object from that same universe. If the WK is neither living or dead, why should he fear breaching natural (physical) authority by breaking its physical product or symbol?

That must have been in the movie. In the book he said nothing of the sort.

Yeah, I was referencing the movie.

Gandalf resurrected being killed a second time by the WK would be much like Jesus dying on the cross a second time after his resurrection.

In all respect, I did say that to some degree there are obvious parallels. The nature of both figures are more parallel than the events that surrounded them.
And of course, it depends on your theology, but some Gnostics, or I should rather say, Pneumatic sects, called by their ancient name-- did in fact believe Jesus would die and resurrect a second time. But that's beside the point, I think

but I just don't see any chance of him prevailing against Gandalf the White.

Not prevailing in what sense? Gandalf's innate divinity had risen, which I think was a separate thing in regards to the incarnation of his second body. It was the same body essentially, just the hair color changed and he was dressed in white with a new walking stick, presumably carved from the Elves? I don't see anything drastically different *physically. if you can point me to a text, I will be obliged to concur.

So not to hold forth any false modesty, it really is true that I am less knowledgeable and more hazy on the books than the movies. The movies I have down to a tee, having watched them for the umpteenth time, plus every little nook and cranny of the EE.

Thanks for responding to my rambling.

Best Regards

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I would like to address the theological comparison of Gandalf with Jesus Christ briefly. We do need the Silmarillion for this, since there is no reference to the nature of Eru, Valar, and Maiar in LotR.

In Christianity, Jesus is clearly said to be God himself, come to earth in human form, as one of the Trinity. He is not a created being, but was in existence for eternity. In Arda, there is no Trinity - there is only Eru, who is the sole god. He created the Ainur, of whom some are Valar and Maiar. These may be called "gods" by the Children, but they are clearly intended to be angelic creatures. Gandalf is one of the Maiar.

There may be some parallels between Gandalf and Christ - after all, this is a fantasy world, and things are different there. However, the fact that Gandalf is a created being is enough to refute any direct comparison. He is not even one of the higher group of Ainur, the Valar, but is a servant to them.

The Bible tells incidents of angels who came to earth in human form to fulfil tasks there - bringing messages, for the most part. Their becoming flesh is necessary so that their appearance will not put fear into the hearts of their human listeners. This parallels Gandalf's incarnation.

The resurrection aspect of Gandalf's life can be compared to that of human persons in the Bible who were resurrected by God to fulfil their purpose in life. Resurrection is not theologically limited to God Himself, though it can only be achieved by his power.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Dakêsîntrah

Not prevailing in what sense? Gandalf's innate divinity had risen, which I think was a separate thing in regards to the incarnation of his second body. It was the same body essentially, just the hair color changed and he was dressed in white with a new walking stick, presumably carved from the Elves? I don't see anything drastically different *physically. if you can point me to a text, I will be obliged to concur.

"Indeed my friends, none of you has any weapon that could hurt me." This is what Gandalf tells Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli when they first meet him as Gandalf the White in Fangorn. Of course, their weapons are rendered absolutely useless.

When Gwahir the Windlord picks up Gandalf from the mountain, he tells the wizard, "A burden you have been...but not so now. Light as a swan's feather in my claw you are. The sun shines through you."

So no, he is not housed in essentially the same body; on the contrary, this presents a fundamental change, not just a hair tint and a romp through Galadriel's closet. Gandalf's physical manifestation has been divinely altered, so much so that he must drape himself again in his gray rags to hide his luminescence. As he stated, he was sent back "for a brief time, until my task was done."

[Mugwump]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Gandalf's physical manifestation has been divinely altered, so much so that he must drape himself again in his gray rags to hide his luminescence. As he stated, he was sent back "for a brief time, until my task was done."

Perhaps Tolkien gave us only an abbreviated version of what Gandalf said. Perhaps he actually said that he was sent back "for a brief time, until my task was done, at which time -- about the middle of the third movie, I expect -- I will diminish, becoming much less wise and powerful in order to make the future King of Gondor seem more heroic in comparison."

[Dakêsîntrah]

So no, he is not housed in essentially the same body; on the contrary, this presents a fundamental change, not just a hair tint and a romp through Galadriel's closet. Gandalf's physical manifestation has been divinely altered, so much so that he must drape himself again in his gray rags to hide his luminescence.

I concede that is the case from the text now. However, the physical *form of Man was not altered dramatically. Of course he was light "as a feather," and of course against his new and divinely incarnated sorcery skills, the Fellowship's Middle Earth weapons would be useless.

This still does not mean a spirit neither living or dead can be hindered with an enchanted sword versus Gandalf - still in the fleshly form of Man.

I agree with you, but I see Tolkien's Gandalf differently than you, perhaps because I am so entrenched in Christian theology.

In Christianity, Jesus is clearly said to be God himself, come to earth in human form, as one of the Trinity. He is not a created being, but was in existence for eternity. In Arda, there is no Trinity - there is only Eru, who is the sole god. He created the Ainur, of whom some are Valar and Maiar. These may be called "gods" by the Children, but they are clearly intended to be angelic creatures. Gandalf is one of the Maiar.

Of course there are various sects of Christianity, and I am sure Tolkien was aware of Gnosticism - a form of Christianity that went all the way back to the time of the apostles or beyond. I know I am probably going on a rabbit trail here, but whether or not Tolkien intended it, some of his Middle Earth "theology" has its roots in his Catholic orthodoxy, and then I see other concepts which have root in Christian Gnosticism. I'm surprised nobody has dealt with Tolkien's Gnostic parallels before, as far as I am aware of. Gnosticism was Roman Catholicism's ancient foe, and I am sure Tolkien came across these watershed traditions during his medieval studies - it is a thing that pervades not only church history, but secular as well.

So, in some Gnostic theology, Jesus is not God, and the Trinity is not really a Trinity, rather manifestations of the Godhead Himself. Much like the Eldar who seemed to emanate from Eru. And of course, as Jesus was an emanation, he was also a created being who came to earth in the guise of a man, as a Messenger. He was not the only Messenger to bring the Light in a Dark World. There were notably four other sages.

The one true God of the ancient Pneumatics was the Sumerian Anu - a close resemblance to the name Eru. Anu and Eru are able to manifest themselves through emanations - so I believe (all conjecture) that Olórin was some sort of manifestation of Eru Himself. Once again, nobody seems to talk about Tolkien and his parallels to even Sumerian myth, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out he knew quite a deal of it.

Gandalf's sacrifice was, I think, incidental. He happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time

If Olórin is an emanation of Eru, I cannot agree with "he happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time." I see God's Will as all Sovereign. Whatever happens, whether tragedy or evil triumphs, it is still the Will of the God.

Best Regards

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Dakêsîntrah

This still does not mean a spirit neither living or dead can be hindered with an enchanted sword versus Gandalf - still in the fleshly form of Man.

There is an interesting quote from The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien concerning the 'real' power of the Nazgûl:

[The Nazgûl's] peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts)....They have no great physical power against the fearless.

Letter #210 (bolding added)

I don't think the same could be said of Gandalf.

Originally Posted by Dakêsîntrah

If Olórin is an emanation of Eru, I cannot agree with "he happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time." I see God's Will as all Sovereign. Whatever happens, whether tragedy or evil triumphs, it is still the Will of the God.

The event was apparently not forseen by Gandalf, making his sacrifice distinct from that of Christ.

For all [Gandalf] could know at that moment he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success.

Letter #156 (bolding added)

Whether the fall of Gandalf was arranged by a Higher Authority is another matter. But Gandalf himself believed at the time that he had failed.
When Christ looked up and said 'It is finished', did He think his task had been unsuccessful?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Dakêsîntrah

I concede that is the case from the text now. However, the physical *form of Man was not altered dramatically. Of course he was light "as a feather," and of course against his new and divinely incarnated sorcery skills, the Fellowship's Middle Earth weapons would be useless.

This still does not mean a spirit neither living or dead can be hindered with an enchanted sword versus Gandalf - still in the fleshly form of Man.

Was the WitchKing's sword enchanted? I don't believe that is stated anywhere. It seemed no more than a flashy parlor trick to me. Which leads me to believe that the WiKi really wasn't aware who he was up against. If anything, pyrotechnics would not be much of a concern to Gandalf, who is obviously a master of fire, what with being 'servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor', the old flaming pinecone trick, zapping Orcs in caves with lightning and blasting Nazgul with excorciating beams, not to mentioning wrestling for hours with a burning balrog and surviving long enough to kill it.

Besides, who is to say that Glamdring would not have its own efficacy against the WitchKing? It sliced through a Balrog, and was feared by Orcs many thousands of years after it was last used. It, too, had pyrotechnic ability and 'shone with a pale light' when enemies were about, and blazed 'bright as blue flame' when Gandalf trepanned the Great Goblin.