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#1 | |||||||
Animated Skeleton
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I just don't think it would be in the nature of a sword, no matter what kind of magic enhances it. A sword is made to ultimately kill even in Tolkien's universe, but a physical weapon terminating a spiritual being is not logical. Gandalf had Glamdring, but that apparently would not have any real effect on the WK. So the Witch-king would temporarily stun Gandalf and mow him down with the flaming sword. Quote:
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I think it's impossible, yes, for WK to wrench Olorin's authority away as a Maia, but in the weak, flawed, flesh of Man it is possible. On a side note, I really don't believe the Istari came into Middle Earth for the first time wielding staves. Their power was innate. Quote:
Saruman could have easily broken Gandalf's staff at Orthanc. But Saruman is more cunning than to declare himself as having turned to the dark side. Rather he has convinced himself that evil, even Sauron, is really not evil, but a maligned interpretation of good that people have created and are thus ignorant of. And so, maybe his digressions with Gandalf can be negotiated to reach a compromise. Gandalf of course refuses, and so Saruman tortures and tempts his mind by imprisoning him on top of Orthanc. To the Witch-king, a mere stick wrought from that world would be no trouble to break. It doesn't have any special magic enhancements that could resist him, that I am aware of. If a physical body can be broken, so can a physical object from that same universe. If the WK is neither living or dead, why should he fear breaching natural (physical) authority by breaking its physical product or symbol? Quote:
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And of course, it depends on your theology, but some Gnostics, or I should rather say, Pneumatic sects, called by their ancient name-- did in fact believe Jesus would die and resurrect a second time. But that's beside the point, I think ![]() Quote:
So not to hold forth any false modesty, it really is true that I am less knowledgeable and more hazy on the books than the movies. The movies I have down to a tee, having watched them for the umpteenth time, plus every little nook and cranny of the EE. ![]() Thanks for responding to my rambling. Best Regards |
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#2 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
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I would like to address the theological comparison of Gandalf with Jesus Christ briefly. We do need the Silmarillion for this, since there is no reference to the nature of Eru, Valar, and Maiar in LotR.
In Christianity, Jesus is clearly said to be God himself, come to earth in human form, as one of the Trinity. He is not a created being, but was in existence for eternity. In Arda, there is no Trinity - there is only Eru, who is the sole god. He created the Ainur, of whom some are Valar and Maiar. These may be called "gods" by the Children, but they are clearly intended to be angelic creatures. Gandalf is one of the Maiar. There may be some parallels between Gandalf and Christ - after all, this is a fantasy world, and things are different there. However, the fact that Gandalf is a created being is enough to refute any direct comparison. He is not even one of the higher group of Ainur, the Valar, but is a servant to them. The Bible tells incidents of angels who came to earth in human form to fulfil tasks there - bringing messages, for the most part. Their becoming flesh is necessary so that their appearance will not put fear into the hearts of their human listeners. This parallels Gandalf's incarnation. The resurrection aspect of Gandalf's life can be compared to that of human persons in the Bible who were resurrected by God to fulfil their purpose in life. Resurrection is not theologically limited to God Himself, though it can only be achieved by his power.
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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#3 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,515
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When Gwahir the Windlord picks up Gandalf from the mountain, he tells the wizard, "A burden you have been...but not so now. Light as a swan's feather in my claw you are. The sun shines through you." So no, he is not housed in essentially the same body; on the contrary, this presents a fundamental change, not just a hair tint and a romp through Galadriel's closet. Gandalf's physical manifestation has been divinely altered, so much so that he must drape himself again in his gray rags to hide his luminescence. As he stated, he was sent back "for a brief time, until my task was done."
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
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#4 | |
Wight
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Taconic Mountains
Posts: 111
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#5 | |||
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This still does not mean a spirit neither living or dead can be hindered with an enchanted sword versus Gandalf - still in the fleshly form of Man. I agree with you, but I see Tolkien's Gandalf differently than you, perhaps because I am so entrenched in Christian theology. Quote:
So, in some Gnostic theology, Jesus is not God, and the Trinity is not really a Trinity, rather manifestations of the Godhead Himself. Much like the Eldar who seemed to emanate from Eru. And of course, as Jesus was an emanation, he was also a created being who came to earth in the guise of a man, as a Messenger. He was not the only Messenger to bring the Light in a Dark World. There were notably four other sages. The one true God of the ancient Pneumatics was the Sumerian Anu - a close resemblance to the name Eru. Anu and Eru are able to manifest themselves through emanations - so I believe (all conjecture) that Olórin was some sort of manifestation of Eru Himself. Once again, nobody seems to talk about Tolkien and his parallels to even Sumerian myth, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out he knew quite a deal of it. Quote:
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#6 | ||||
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,039
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I don't think the same could be said of Gandalf. Quote:
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Whether the fall of Gandalf was arranged by a Higher Authority is another matter. But Gandalf himself believed at the time that he had failed. When Christ looked up and said 'It is finished', did He think his task had been unsuccessful?
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
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#7 |
Wight
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Taconic Mountains
Posts: 111
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Toklien clearly said that LofR was NOT intended to reflect Christian theology in any way or to be analogous to any part of it, and the only similarities lie in those elements that exist in all religions and all world myth.
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#8 | |||
Wight of the Old Forest
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
Posts: 3,329
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I won't deny that Tolkien may have been aware of the Gnostic tradition - after all, he was a man of considerable erudition; but it's a far cry from there to assuming he endorsed its beliefs to such a point that he'd have modeled the metaphysics of Middle-earth on them. As you said yourself, Gnosticism was Roman Catholicism's ancient foe, and the Prof was a devout Catholic. But we're straying a bit off-topic here. Back to the parallels between Jesus and Gandalf. Quote:
![]() Which is the point I was trying to make when I said earlier that you were doing your case no favour by stressing the parallels between them. Agreed, Jesus during his earthly life could be tempted by Satan and experienced fear of death to the point of sweating blood; but Christ Resurrected? Satan wouldn't have touched him with a long pole. And Gandalf the Grey might have had reason to fear the WK with his power newly boosted by Sauron, but Gandalf the White? Not with any shiny enchanted Sword of Hellish Flames in Middle-earth. As for Olórin (or the Eldar, for that matter) being an emanation of Eru himself, I'm really curious what in all of Tolkien's works (apart from Sumerian mythology, which he may or may not have been familiar with) you base this on. By the way, thanks for adding some intellectual challenge to this discussion of a rather embarassing movie scene. This is fun! ![]()
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Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI |
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#9 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,515
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Besides, who is to say that Glamdring would not have its own efficacy against the WitchKing? It sliced through a Balrog, and was feared by Orcs many thousands of years after it was last used. It, too, had pyrotechnic ability and 'shone with a pale light' when enemies were about, and blazed 'bright as blue flame' when Gandalf trepanned the Great Goblin.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. Last edited by Morthoron; 01-02-2010 at 09:00 PM. |
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#10 |
Flame Imperishable
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Right here
Posts: 3,928
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So we can take him to be "some conjurer of cheap tricks!"
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Welcome to the Barrow Do-owns Forum / Such a lovely place
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#11 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
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Actually, yes, when it comes to it. Think about any direct combat between the Nazgul and any foe that showed no fear: the WiKi/Nazgul fled from Glorfindel on two occasions, five Nazgul ran from Aragorn on Weathertop when the Ring was in their grasp, several more Nazgul were driven off by Gandalf at Weathertop and again in Gondor. Their primary weapon is fear. When faced by a foe who is fearless, the Nazgul flee, even when outnumbering their opponent. In the book, The WitchKing at the Gate of Minas Tirith tried to instill fear in Gandalf, but it did not work. Not even Shadowfax was fearful.
As I referred to previously, the WiKi's stunt with the flaming sword was the Middle-earth equivalent of a bully flexing his muscles. I've faced opponents like that and beat the snot out of them. Gandalf remains still and calm, watching for the opponent's next move, which is what one is taught to do in aikido, jiu-jitsu and other martial arts.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
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