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#1 | |||
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,515
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"Do not pursue him! He will not return to these lands. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall." Just as you took the narrowest view of the quote, so did the WiKi. Glorfindel's prophesy was indeed fulfilled when Eowyn, a female, slew the WiKi, with the aid of a Hobbit (who was indeed an adult male, but technically not a 'man'), but this was only based on circumstance. Nowhere does it say that the WiKi could not be killed by a man. This is emphasized when the WiKi flees from Glorfindel, rather than face an Elf of Aman in his wrath. Why run if the WiKi could not be slain? Was it because Glorfindel was a male Elf but not a 'man'? If that is the case, then Gandalf, a Maia, was no more a 'man' than Glorfindel was a 'man'. Gandalf may have 'appeared' to be a man, but that is no more the case than Glorfindel or Meriadoc not being defined as 'men'. Which brings us to your contention that the blade of Westernesse used by Meriadoc played a part in the WiKi's destruction. The text points to the blade and not the bearer as the reason for its effect on the Wiki; therefore, a Dunedain male, a mortal man and maker of the knife, would have had the same effect on the WiKi as a Hobbit. The Dunedain who crafted the baneful blades wrought the knives for one specific reason, to kill the WiKi. They didn't make them in fashionable designed colors and hand them out to the ladies of their court. Quote:
Please read the book again as many times as necessary. Use it like shampoo, wash, rinse, repeat.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
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#2 | ||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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#3 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,515
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'Sauron has yet to reveal his deadliest servant' -- Yes, I believe we are all quite aware that the WiKi is Sauron's deadliest servant, particularly since Balrogs never seemed to take orders well from anyone except Morgoth. 'The one who will lead Mordor's armies in war' -- *Quickly scans WiKi's resume* Ah yes, Mr. WitchKing -- may I call you WiKi? -- it says here you led Sauron's ground forces out of Angmar and destroyed the Dunedain kingdoms of Eriador. Quite impressive! But WiKi, I have a note here regarding your lack of support for Sauron during the Numenorean invasion. You seem quite absent in the whole affair. I believe the note says 'up and ran away'. There are also several botched jobs more recently, like on Weathertop, at Bree, and at the Ford of Bruinen. I am afraid we'll have to start you off in janitorial services, as managerial positions are filled at present. You handle a mace quite well, how are you at a mop and bucket? 'the one they say no living man can kill' -- "They' being Glorfindel, of course, and Peter Jackson obviously did not read the Glorfindel quote thoroughly. It's what happens when one quickly scans a book while laying on a sofa eating a burrito. 'He is the Lord of the Nazgul - the greatest of the nine' -- Yes, I believe that was established early on in both the books and the movie. Nothing new to report. 'He stabbed Frodo on Weathertop' -- Again, PJ's attention to detail is staggering. I suppose that had to be reiterated for anyone who did not see the first movie. Please note also that in the fray Frodo came dangerously close to terminating WiKi with his Westernesse blade (not mentioned in the movie). And Aragorn chased the Nazgul off with a flaming fagot. And no, I am not referring to Legolas, but a fire brand or a bunch of sticks. ![]() 'He is the Lord of the Nazgul - the greatest of the nine' -- When in doubt, repeat for added emphasis and heightened...ummm...something or other. Now -- strictly from the movie, mind you -- where does it say that the WiKi has been taking anabolic steroids and has become greater than a Maia, particularly since 1) Aragorn merely shrugs them off with a burning brand, 2) they get drowned by an Elf-maid who sounds like she has some throat congestion (or has been taking male hormones), 3) is chased off by Gandalf while rescuing Faramir, 4) eventually dies to a shield-maiden and a weak stab to the leg by an injured Hobbit (with no explanation of the efficacy of the blade he wields). I am merely pointing out inconsistencies here. Y'all can believe what you wish. ![]()
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
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#4 | ||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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#5 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,515
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Aint tha' loike them Aztecs, 'cept from Peru? I mispoke, Al. Nowhere is Maia or Maiar mentioned in the movie. But it is interesting that in The Two Towers during the flashback sequence in the 'White Rider' scene there are specific mentions of a supernatural occurence:
'Through fire and water.' (Flashback: Gandalf is battling the Balrog on a peak) 'From the lowest dungeon to the highest peak, I fought him, the Balrog of Morgoth.' (Gandalf holds up Glamdring and a flash of lightning strikes it before he plunges the sword into the Balrog. With a final cry, the Balrog falls from the peak and lands, smoking, onto the icy rocks below) 'Until at last, I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside.' (On top of the mountain, Gandalf crawls a little ways and then collapses) 'Darkness took me. And I strayed out of thought and time.' (The camera zooms in Gandalf’s eye and enters an amorphous realm of stars and whirling galaxies, ending in a blinding white light) 'Stars wheeled overhead and every day was as long as a life-age of the earth. But it was not the end. I felt life in me again.' (The camera zooms out from Gandalf’s eye; he is lying, naked and very still, in the snow. His hair has turned white and his wounds are completely healed. He suddenly shudders with a deep gasp as life returns to him) 'I've been sent back until my task is done.' Who completely healed Gandalf of his wounds (he looked quite beat up before his transformation)? He's been sent back by whom? Even if one discounts the lack of background information regarding Eru/Valar/Maiar, one has to get the implication that God himself sent Gandalf back to finish his task. Otherwise, what can you assume the script is referring to? Again, with such an implication, how then can we go from Gandalf defeating a Balrog 'of Morgorth' (who is this Morgoth, by the way?), being ressurrected and completely healed, breaking Saruman's staff and chasing away Nazgul on the Pelennor, to having his staff shattered, being unhorsed and cowering in fear to the WitchKing? It is bogus and utterly inconsistent. Silly even. Quote:
Have I mentioned I have, once again, drank far too much coffee today?
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
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#6 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the Helcaraxe
Posts: 733
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It's funny, but apparently Jackson had originally intended to mention the fact that the wizards were Maiar. In one of the various books that were published about the making of the films, one of those for FotR is "embellished" with quotes from the film broken out into boxes. One is a quote from Saruman, speaking to Gandalf, in which he says (as I remember it; the book is in storage somewhere), "Are we not both Maiar, members of a most excellent order...?" I don't recall the entire quote, but I do recall that the word is mentioned, and it is a line that never appears anywhere in LotR the book. It plainly came from the script as it stood at the time the book was laid out, and was either never filmed or was deleted.
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Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill |
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#7 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,039
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
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#8 | |
Wight
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Taconic Mountains
Posts: 111
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CLOSE UP: PIPPIN ... desperately seeking reassurance. ![]() |
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#9 |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 129
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Dealing with Gandalf's mortality we are touching a delicate subject. Tolkien is a Christian and the idea of God embodied in a person, who saves humanity, sharing his destiny with humans is a central point of Christianity. Tolkien as a creator doesn't dare to compete with Bible, but works out a different storyline, where not the Creator (Eru) himself, but rather some angelic beings experience something like this. Gandlf is one of them and while he suffers like a human, he knows what lies beyond death and he originally belongs to the world beyond Middle Earth.
This means his "death" is a sort of voluntary act rather then an inevitable end of being as it is the case for a human being. Even if his body had been tired and broken he could have staying alive until he decides 'that's it, I cant endure this anymore'. So, as I have already written, he couldn't be afraid of death, because death for him means return to Valinor. I don't think we should underestimate WiKi. He was a serious chalenge for Gandalf. I believe Sauron could have made an idea of Gandalf the White's power after their personal encounter in the TT, when reserected wizard diverted the Dark Lord's attention from Frodo to himself, while he "sat in a high place and strove with the Dark Tower". So Sauron could prepare his best servant to fight against the White Wizard and supply him with a perilous enchanted weapon. What Wiki was showing to Gandalf was that he was no more afraid of fire, Gandalf's magic tool, ut was ready to use it himself. However, it couldn't be an easy task to get rid of Gandaf. I belive that the power and high spirit of Wiki's army made him stronger, as he belived, he could make an incredible pressure on Gandalf's state of mind, allowing others to kill the wizard. Well it didn't mean as well tht Gandalf was an easy tagert. |
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