“Thee” and “thou” in “The Lord of the Rings”

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I have a couple of additional examples for the use of "thou". In these cases, they are found in the context of poetry/song. Gildor's Elves sing:

Gilthoniel! O Elbereth!
Clear are they eyes and bright thy breath!
Snow-white! Snow-white! We sing to thee...

Later on, we read that the last lines of Galadriel's song translate:

Maybe thou shalt find Valimar.
Maybe even thou shalt find it.

Her poetic messages to Aragorn and Legolas were already mentioned, I think.

Does poetry use the familiar form for some special reason? I do know that in some languages (French, and sometimes English, for example), otherwise silent syllables are pronounced in poetry and song, illustrating the fact that the lyrical use of language can differ from normal conversation.

Or can the use of "thou" in singing to a goddess such as Varda be compared to the familiar use in prayer?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

At last I get to join this most interesting thread... I'm afraid I won't have that much to add anymore... but anyway...

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Or can the use of "thou" in singing to a goddess such as Varda be compared to the familiar use in prayer?

I believe this would be the case. It is effectively a prayer, and therefore, that's the same way.

***

As for other uses of "thou" in translations, perhaps I could contribute my bit. In the Czech translation, we have basically the same situation as in Russian (the languages and culture-use of pronouns being very much alike in this respect), or even very similar to German, as far as I see from the previous. So just to put in one more language to compare, let me sum it up (even though like I said, it's very much similar):

In Czech, you have the "polite plural" you use towards adult people you are unfamiliar with, whether you are adult yourself or not. I am actually wondering whether the reason why people tend to call Hobbits by the familiar singular ("thou"-like) form isn't partially because of this "child-like" association in the foreigner's eyes.

Hobbits in general use the "familiar singular" (ty) towards each other, except for Sam, who keeps calling Frodo, but also Merry and Pippin in the polite plural (vy). Obviously here the class-status plays its role. Otherwise, the Hobbits tend to address other people by the polite plural, and for example when they first meet Strider, they call him that way. I believe, however, that once they become friends - and once the Fellowship is formed - everyone in the Fellowship addresses each other in the familiar singular form, except for Gandalf. The Hobbits keep referring to Gandalf as "vy" (plural), and so does Gimli (but not Legolas or Aragorn! Also, I recall being somewhat surprised by Boromir calling Gandalf "ty" - familiar singular - in front of Moria when asking him about the opening password).

What I said for Hobbits goes for Bilbo in general as well. Actually, it is quite funny - I believe in the whole book of The Hobbit, people do, as a rule, address each other only with the polite plural. Even Bilbo addressing Gollum (whom later Frodo and Sam address in singular). There are only two exceptions I can recall: the Dwarves talking to each other (e.g. Thorin to Dori) and, quite interestingly, Smaug to Bilbo. I am not sure if it has anything to do with the original - I could imagine "you" being used universally in the whole book since the book has the "modern" tone with not much "thou"-ing in it, but still, it's the translator's decision to translate each "you" as plural...

Now, speaking of that, there actually seems to be one interesting aspect to the Czech translation. Obviously, the singular form is not exactly the equivalent of English "thou", since "thou" has apparently quite archaic overtone, whereas the Czech "ty" is the most mundane thing you can have. In LotR, however, the translation seems to create something which we could call a new form of its own - technically. Not sure if it works like that in the other languages which have the singular/plural forms, so I would like to hear about that. But e.g. among Hobbits, the singular pronoun has the most mundane sense, like when I am talking to my friends. However, when e.g. Éowyn or Witch-king use the pronoun (as they do), it sounds somehow more "noble" - that's what I mean by saying that it creates something else.

In Czech, you could theoretically use the singular form in derogatory sense (as the W-K or even Éowyn towards him might be assumed to do), to someone whom you actually should address by the polite plural, but you decide not to in order to mock him. It brings to mind some 17-century colonialist guy addressing primitive natives in singular. However, in the case of W-K it does not sound that way (I believe the Mouth and the Orcs are about the only ones who actually feel like doing that). The same it is with Éowyn and Aragorn talking to each other: it does not give the same feeling as if two young people were having a date today. It's determined by the rest of the vocabulary they use: their language is so "high" or "noble" otherwise, that in some way, it would be more logical for them to use the polite plural (you) and it would fit well with the rest of the words they say. Using singular in such a case sounds peculiar (though a reader might not really give it much thought - this is the first time I am consciously reflecting on it - but in any case, it will sound strikingly different to him from the "mundane talk" he is used to) - and therefore, I believe, it gets closer to the archaic sound of "thou" in English.

There could be more to say, but I will cut it short and try to remember yet some interesting examples. How about this: the Valar (including Morgoth, and speaking of him, Ungoliant) address each other in the familiar singular form. Or, in the abovementioned case of Beregond and Pippin, in Czech they of course both use the singular - and interestingly enough, this actually brings another feeling to the reader's mind: the feeling that in fact, "properly" Pippin should address Beregond by the polite plural, but he does not because Beregond approached him as equal in the first place. Something similar happens with Bergil, who automatically addresses Pippin in singular - and somehow you get the feeling, at the moment Pippin says "I'm 29", that the boy should be shocked and would have liked to correct his mistake of not addressing Pippin in plural - addressing Pippin in singular also further implies (to the reader) that Bergil thought Pippin to be a child.

[Galadriel55]

Hurray for brother languages!

Originally Posted by Legate

Otherwise, the Hobbits tend to address other people by the polite plural, and for example when they first meet Strider, they call him that way.

I haven't thought of that. They do in the Russian translation as well, and somewhere along the conversation Strider calls Frodo ty, and then explains that he is used to that form. After that, they address each other familiarly.

And that reminds me - Butterbur and Nob use the formal as well in my translation.

Originally Posted by Legate

In Czech, you could theoretically use the singular form in derogatory sense (as the W-K or even Éowyn towards him might be assumed to do), to someone whom you actually should address by the polite plural, but you decide not to in order to mock him. It brings to mind some 17-century colonialist guy addressing primitive natives in singular.

That's interresting. As far as I know, the polite plural is relatively modern in history terms. Only a couple hundred years. The earlier Zhars, and before them - princes, were always called ty. So for me, when I see Theoden, Elrond, Denethor, and other rulers being called ty, I think "ancient".

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I haven't thought of that. They do in the Russian translation as well, and somewhere along the conversation Strider calls Frodo ty, and then explains that he is used to that form. After that, they address each other familiarly.

Wait, do you actually say that they added such a thing into the book?

And that reminds me - Butterbur and Nob use the formal as well in my translation.

Indeed they do so in Czech as well, I guess that's the polite manner of the businessmen, being polite to your customers.

That's interresting. As far as I know, the polite plural is relatively modern in history terms. Only a couple hundred years. The earlier Zhars, and before them - princes, were always called ty. So for me, when I see Theoden, Elrond, Denethor, and other rulers being called ty, I think "ancient".

That's true, the polite plural is a rather modern invention in general. But now that I think of that, in Czech, calling nobles "ty" probably happens mostly only in fairytales, and in the few old sagas we have (or rather I am thinking of the one collection of old sagas which was written down in the 19th century), otherwise, an average person does not get to read things where a king is called "ty", so it sounds probably even much less natural than in many other languages, simply because of the lack of old sources.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Wait, do you actually say that they added such a thing into the book?

Yep. I don't remember exactly when he says it, but Aragorn says something to Frodo, and then adds: "I will call you ty, and call me likewise. We* do not speak differently." And Frodo answers: "Speak as you are used to."

...Or something to that effect.

It just sounds terribly weird if two unknown adults begin with calling each other vy and go to ty in a matter of mintes. However, it is a common thing to say "call me ty" to someone whom you are talking to, one of the reasons being to befriend them or make them feel comfortable.

The most interesting thing that I just realised is that in my translation, only the hobbits ever use "vy". I do not remember anyone else saying it. This would sound rather weird if it was in English, but I must say it adds a certain charm to the Shire.



*We meaning his, er, circle of friends (as assumed upon rereading, the Rangers), not him and Frodo

[Galadriel55]

I came across another quote that I don't believe was mentioned here before:

Then Glaurung stirred for the last time ere he died, and he spoke with his last breath, saying: "Hail Nienor, daughter of Hurin. We meet again ere the end. I give thee joy that thou hast found thy brother at last. And now thou shalt know him: a stabber in the dark, treacherous to foes, faithless to friends, and a curse unto his kin, Turin son of Hurin! But the worst of all his deeds thou shalt feel in thyself."

~Of Turin Turambar, The Sil, as well as The Death of Glaurung, COH.

Glaurung could easily be talking down to Nienor, like he did before to Turin. After all, he knows that he dies victorius: he succeeded in demolishing the family. Or, maybe, he's being sarcastic and addressing Nienor like a friend and equal. Or maybe he forsees that they are equal by their death. It's a funny thing how they all died in basically the same place, Glaurung, Nienor, Turin, and Gurthang. And later Morwen.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

It's a funny thing how they all died in basically the same place, Glaurung, Nienor, Turin, and Gurthang. And later Morwen.

Funnily enough, I don't find it all that strange. I would have found it more intriguing if they had died in places that were somehow relevant to their births or later lives.