“Thee” and “thou” in “The Lord of the Rings”

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Another point, as far as I am concern, that he is "talking down" to Eowyn, the fact that he starts referring to himself in the third person, distancing himself.

That's a very interesting observation, Alfirin! It does add insult to injury, doesn't it?!

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

You knew I would have to post on this sooner or later, didn't you, Esty? I can only echo Mr Underhill - great thread and great posts so far.

Of course, Pitch! It's nice to see the (active) German members posting here, as we have daily experience of this linguistic usage. And thank you - I'm fascinated by the thoughts that have come up in the discussion, many of which hadn't occurred to me at all.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Sam calls Frodo du, Herr Frodo, which is highly unusual in German, where only little children use du and the honorific Herr, Frau + surname together (as in du, Frau Steimel), until they have learned the correct polite forms - but here it nicely reflects the mixture of deference and intimacy.

Now that really makes Sam sound like a first grader! I wasn't aware of that, not knowing the translation well.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Gandalf is addressed with du by Frodo and Bilbo, as befits a friend of the family, and by extension also by Merry and Pippin. To Sam, on the other hand, he is initially Ihr, Herr Gandalf; by the time they come to Moria, this has become du, Herr Gandalf (!), and at the end, on the Field of Cormallen, it's just du, Gandalf - showing nicely how the wizard changes in Sam's eyes from somebody both respected and feared to a companion who has become more familiar, but is still leader and guide, to a friend who is still respected but mostly loved.

Very interesting progression! And yes, I too am now curious as to what Krege did with the new translation - I may have to pick it up from the library to compare. I've attempted to avoid that till now!

Thanks to you too, G55, for sharing how the Russian translation handles the personal pronoun!

[The Might]

Pitch, I was talking about

and the Fellowship hobbits use Ihr to the lords and ladies they meet on their journey, like Elrond, Galadriel, King Théoden and Denethor, but also to 'normal' people like Beregond - which goes quite against the grain of Tolkien's remark in Appendix F. Apparently Ms Carroux felt she had to deviate from Tolkien in this, because it would sound childish in German to say du to an unfamiliar adult.

[Guinevere]

How could I have missed this great thread?! Yes, I know, it’s my own fault; I have been shamefully neglecting the Downs for much too long!

I found one more example of the use of "thou" in the LotR: Faramir, recalling his encounter with Boromir’s funeral boat :

"Boromir! Where is thy horn? Whither goest thou? O Boromir!"

This indicates the closeness of the brothers, and it has this archaic word order "Whither goest thou" (Old English seems to have been closer to German than modern English)

Before reading Tolkien, I had met these forms only in Shakespeare and the Bible. The quotations where thee and thou are used have a special impact on me, they always have the effect of "other time".

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

And yes, I too am now curious as to what Krege did with the new translation - I may have to pick it up from the library to compare. I've attempted to avoid that till now!

Since we have the new (Krege) translation in the house, I will go and see if and how it differs from the old one, using the examples Pitchwife mentioned.

[Guinevere]

In the Shire, Krege uses “Sie” instead of “Ihr”, which makes it sound more modern.
The hobbits mostly call each other „Du“, but then they mostly are friends or family. In the conversations in the „Ivybush“ a strange hobbit is addressed as „Sie“. The gaffer calls the miller „du, Sandigmann“ (but without „Herr“!)

The Sackville-Bagginses call Merry and Frodo „Sie“ („Sie sind kein Beutlin- Sie… Sie sind ein Brandybock!“) (in the old translation it’s “Du”)

Sam calls Frodo „Du“ and “Herr Frodo”, and sometimes “Du,Chef!” (Grrrr!) Gandalf he addresses in the beginning „Sie, Herr Gandalf“, later „Du, Herr Gandalf“, and finally Du Gandalf.

Farmer Maggot calls Frodo „Du, Herr Frodo“, but the Nazgul he tells „Verschwinden Sie!“
Mr Butterbur also calls the hobbits „Sie“ (and vice versa)

Strider and the hobbits also call each other „Sie“ until his declaration that he is Aragorn, and will give his live to save them. Thereafter they call each other Du. (in the old translation “Ihr” changes to “Du” a bit later, on the way to weathertop.)

In the Council of Elrond, Frodo calls Elrond “Du” (.Everyone is called „Du“, as far as I can see.. (Du, Meister Elrond)
Aragorn and Boromir call each other “Du” from the start. (In the Carroux translation it’s “Ihr”.) Even Sam says“Du“ to Elrond (“Aber du willst ihn doch nicht etwa allein losschicken, Meister?”)!!

Galadriel is called „Du“ by Frodo and also by Sam! ("Ihr" in the old translation)

Eomer and Aragorn say “Du” to each other. (In the old translation: "ihr")
But Théoden, as befits a king of old, is called “Ihr” by Gandalf, Eomer and everyone. (Also by Merry) (Théoden, on the other hand, calls Gandalf “Du”) (In the old translation Théoden calls Gandalf "Ihr")

At the first meeting with Faramir, Sam calls him “Sie”(!), and Frodo “Ihr”, but not for long. After the episode with the Mumak, both call him “Du” (and vice versa). (Old transl: both Frodo and Sam call Faramir "Ihr", Faramir calls Frodo "Ihr", but Sam "Du")

Gandalf calls Denethor “Ihr”, Denethor calls him “Du, Mithrandir”, but Pippin says “Sie” to Denethor (!) and he also says ”Sie” to Beregond, but only initially, after their snack on the walls, they have become friends and call each other “Du”. (Old translation: Gandalf and Pippin call Denethor "Ihr", Denethor calls Gandalf "Ihr" and Pippin "Du". Pippin and Beregond call each other "Ihr" the whole time.)

Aragorn and Eowyn call each other “Du” right from the start! So here there is no difference and hence no special significance of the passages where in the original “Thou” is used. (old translation:"Ihr", but "Du" in the passages where "Thou" is used)

Faramir and Eowyn also call each other “Du” right from the start. (old transation: "Ihr" the whole time)

[Galadriel55]

Guinevere, I can't rep you again yet, but such a detailed review deserves a note! Thanks for posting the differences!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

What G55 said - thanks for all that research, Guinevere!

[Findegil]

It is probably obvious for the Germans here at the downs, but for sure not for all members: German has preserved both familiar singular and polite plural up to now. But in daily speech polite plural is more and more neglected. That means modern English lost the familiar form while German is on the way to loss the polite form.
In translating an English text which uses the (now) obsolete and archaic familiar form you must choose between the archaism (which would be transported by the use of the German polite plural) and the familiarity of the characters (which is transported by the familiar singular). That is why Carroux and Krege came in some cases to different solutions.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Guinevere]

Well, what is interesting is that beside the familiar "Du" Carroux used only "Ihr" - the archaic form of polite address; wheras Krege uses both "Ihr" and "Sie" - apparently to distinguish between the 20th century hobbits of the Shire and the archaic world of Middle-Earth. (But he exaggerates the modernizing of the Shire language, and I really prefer the old translation!)

Btw, "Ihr" as a polite address is still in use today in the Swiss dialect of Kanton Bern. Also, in 19th century literature it has not quite the same connotation as "Sie" - it's somehow between "Du" and "Sie" ( e.g. a landlord calls the cook "Ihr", but the guest "Sie". The cook calls the landlord "Sie".) But in feudal times apparently "Ihr" was common , even among family members of the nobility.

In the 17th and 18th century there was even more social distinction in pronominal address in the German language: servants were called "Er" and "Sie" ( 3rd person singular) (eg: Komm Er! Bring Er!) And children in upper class families called their parents "Sie" (as for example Mozart in the letters to his father)

Complicated business!! it's so much easier calling everybody "You"!