“Thee” and “thou” in “The Lord of the Rings”

[Pitchwife]

You knew I would have to post on this sooner or later, didn't you, Esty? I can only echo Mr Underhill - great thread and great posts so far.

The use of thou & thee in the Troll song seems to me more dialectal than insulting, in accordance with the poem's folk song character - especially when you hear Tolkien himself sing it (a good recording is here).

I just remembered a smashing occurrence of thee & thou in the Silmarillion which is missing in Miggy's list - Fëanor to Melkor:

"Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!"

Everything here is a calculated insult - the use of the familiar pronoun, the epithet reminding Melkor of the worst humiliation he had suffered until then, the final act of slamming the door "in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä". (Which, incidentally, makes this a great thing to say to bailiffs, Jehovah's Witnesses and other visiting nuisances.)

Some remarks to usage in the German (Carroux) translation: the hobbits in the Shire mostly use du towards each other, but Frodo and Farmer Maggot address each other with Ihr (which may reflect uneasy feelings from the past on Frodo's side, whereas on Maggot's it may indicate that he now treats Frodo with the respect due to the Baggins of Bag-End), and the Fellowship hobbits use Ihr to the lords and ladies they meet on their journey, like Elrond, Galadriel, King Théoden and Denethor, but also to 'normal' people like Beregond - which goes quite against the grain of Tolkien's remark in Appendix F. Apparently Ms Carroux felt she had to deviate from Tolkien in this, because it would sound childish in German to say du to an unfamiliar adult.

Sam calls Frodo du, Herr Frodo, which is highly unusual in German, where only little children use du and the honorific Herr, Frau + surname together (as in du, Frau Steimel), until they have learned the correct polite forms - but here it nicely reflects the mixture of deference and intimacy.

Gandalf is addressed with du by Frodo and Bilbo, as befits a friend of the family, and by extension also by Merry and Pippin. To Sam, on the other hand, he is initially Ihr, Herr Gandalf; by the time they come to Moria, this has become du, Herr Gandalf (!), and at the end, on the Field of Cormallen, it's just du, Gandalf - showing nicely how the wizard changes in Sam's eyes from somebody both respected and feared to a companion who has become more familiar, but is still leader and guide, to a friend who is still respected but mostly loved.

[The Might]

Nice mention of the German translation, Pitch!
I've never read the books in German so it's new ground for me too.

I have to agree with the decision of avoiding using "du" and "Herr" together, it would definitely sound out of place.

[Pitchwife]

Er, Miggy, reread what I wrote. Ms Carroux doesn't avoid it, and somehow I agree with her, although it sounds weird. (I shudder to think what Krege may have done in the new translation.)

[Galadriel55]

That's interesting, Pitch. I really like the change with Gandalf. And that recording is just priceless!

In the Russian translation, Sam addresses most people defferentially. I believe (and I'm saying from memmory) that the only two people that he called by the familiar form were Hob Heyward and Gollum: the former as a friend and the latter by looking down on him. As hard as I try, I don't remember how he addressed Rosie. She addressed him in a familiar way for sure.

It seems to me, though, that Frodo was trying to convince Sam that he's not a servant but a friend to him. And Sam resisted believing that with all his might. I find it especially visible when Frodo speaks to Sam using familiar terms, and Sam replies defferentially.

Like in the German translation, Frodo addresses Maggot defferentially.

That Feanor quote is truly smashing! I wonder how he was still alive after that!

[Faramir Jones]

Pitchwife, I wanted to comment on what you had to say here:

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Some remarks to usage in the German (Carroux) translation: the hobbits in the Shire mostly use du towards each other, but Frodo and Farmer Maggot address each other with Ihr (which may reflect uneasy feelings from the past on Frodo's side, whereas on Maggot's it may indicate that he now treats Frodo with the respect due to the Baggins of Bag-End), and the Fellowship hobbits use Ihr to the lords and ladies they meet on their journey, like Elrond, Galadriel, King Théoden and Denethor, but also to 'normal' people like Beregond - which goes quite against the grain of Tolkien's remark in Appendix F. Apparently Ms Carroux felt she had to deviate from Tolkien in this, because it would sound childish in German to say du to an unfamiliar adult.

To be fair about Pippin's use of Ihr to Beregond, he initially thought that the latter was of higher rank, and was only later told by him that he was just a 'plain man of arms'.

How does Beregond refer to Pippin in the translation? Is it in formal or intimate terms? I'm interested because though both are equal in rank, Pippin is higher in social position, being the son and heir of the Thain.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

To be fair about Pippin's use of Ihr to Beregond, he initially thought that the latter was of higher rank, and was only later told by him that he was just a 'plain man of arms'.

True.

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

How does Beregond refer to Pippin in the translation? Is it in formal or intimate terms? I'm interested because though both are equal in rank, Pippin is higher in social position, being the son and heir of the Thain.

Beregond also uses the formal Ihr, although he uses du with the other guards in the kitchen. Can't remember whether he was aware of Pippin's social position back home (and don't have the book here to check), but I guess Pip being a companion of Mithrandir and a guest of the Steward would have been cause enough to show some respect, just to be on the safe side.

PS. - Thanks for the Napoleon letter! He could get quite irascible, couldn't he? But my favourite is the one he wrote to Josephine on his way home from a campaign, where he tells her "Don't wash yourself, I'm coming".

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I have a couple of additional examples for the use of "thou". In these cases, they are found in the context of poetry/song. Gildor's Elves sing:

Gilthoniel! O Elbereth!
Clear are they eyes and bright thy breath!
Snow-white! Snow-white! We sing to thee...

Later on, we read that the last lines of Galadriel's song translate:

Maybe thou shalt find Valimar.
Maybe even thou shalt find it.

Her poetic messages to Aragorn and Legolas were already mentioned, I think.

Does poetry use the familiar form for some special reason? I do know that in some languages (French, and sometimes English, for example), otherwise silent syllables are pronounced in poetry and song, illustrating the fact that the lyrical use of language can differ from normal conversation.

Or can the use of "thou" in singing to a goddess such as Varda be compared to the familiar use in prayer?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

At last I get to join this most interesting thread... I'm afraid I won't have that much to add anymore... but anyway...

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Or can the use of "thou" in singing to a goddess such as Varda be compared to the familiar use in prayer?

I believe this would be the case. It is effectively a prayer, and therefore, that's the same way.

***

As for other uses of "thou" in translations, perhaps I could contribute my bit. In the Czech translation, we have basically the same situation as in Russian (the languages and culture-use of pronouns being very much alike in this respect), or even very similar to German, as far as I see from the previous. So just to put in one more language to compare, let me sum it up (even though like I said, it's very much similar):

In Czech, you have the "polite plural" you use towards adult people you are unfamiliar with, whether you are adult yourself or not. I am actually wondering whether the reason why people tend to call Hobbits by the familiar singular ("thou"-like) form isn't partially because of this "child-like" association in the foreigner's eyes.

Hobbits in general use the "familiar singular" (ty) towards each other, except for Sam, who keeps calling Frodo, but also Merry and Pippin in the polite plural (vy). Obviously here the class-status plays its role. Otherwise, the Hobbits tend to address other people by the polite plural, and for example when they first meet Strider, they call him that way. I believe, however, that once they become friends - and once the Fellowship is formed - everyone in the Fellowship addresses each other in the familiar singular form, except for Gandalf. The Hobbits keep referring to Gandalf as "vy" (plural), and so does Gimli (but not Legolas or Aragorn! Also, I recall being somewhat surprised by Boromir calling Gandalf "ty" - familiar singular - in front of Moria when asking him about the opening password).

What I said for Hobbits goes for Bilbo in general as well. Actually, it is quite funny - I believe in the whole book of The Hobbit, people do, as a rule, address each other only with the polite plural. Even Bilbo addressing Gollum (whom later Frodo and Sam address in singular). There are only two exceptions I can recall: the Dwarves talking to each other (e.g. Thorin to Dori) and, quite interestingly, Smaug to Bilbo. I am not sure if it has anything to do with the original - I could imagine "you" being used universally in the whole book since the book has the "modern" tone with not much "thou"-ing in it, but still, it's the translator's decision to translate each "you" as plural...

Now, speaking of that, there actually seems to be one interesting aspect to the Czech translation. Obviously, the singular form is not exactly the equivalent of English "thou", since "thou" has apparently quite archaic overtone, whereas the Czech "ty" is the most mundane thing you can have. In LotR, however, the translation seems to create something which we could call a new form of its own - technically. Not sure if it works like that in the other languages which have the singular/plural forms, so I would like to hear about that. But e.g. among Hobbits, the singular pronoun has the most mundane sense, like when I am talking to my friends. However, when e.g. Éowyn or Witch-king use the pronoun (as they do), it sounds somehow more "noble" - that's what I mean by saying that it creates something else.

In Czech, you could theoretically use the singular form in derogatory sense (as the W-K or even Éowyn towards him might be assumed to do), to someone whom you actually should address by the polite plural, but you decide not to in order to mock him. It brings to mind some 17-century colonialist guy addressing primitive natives in singular. However, in the case of W-K it does not sound that way (I believe the Mouth and the Orcs are about the only ones who actually feel like doing that). The same it is with Éowyn and Aragorn talking to each other: it does not give the same feeling as if two young people were having a date today. It's determined by the rest of the vocabulary they use: their language is so "high" or "noble" otherwise, that in some way, it would be more logical for them to use the polite plural (you) and it would fit well with the rest of the words they say. Using singular in such a case sounds peculiar (though a reader might not really give it much thought - this is the first time I am consciously reflecting on it - but in any case, it will sound strikingly different to him from the "mundane talk" he is used to) - and therefore, I believe, it gets closer to the archaic sound of "thou" in English.

There could be more to say, but I will cut it short and try to remember yet some interesting examples. How about this: the Valar (including Morgoth, and speaking of him, Ungoliant) address each other in the familiar singular form. Or, in the abovementioned case of Beregond and Pippin, in Czech they of course both use the singular - and interestingly enough, this actually brings another feeling to the reader's mind: the feeling that in fact, "properly" Pippin should address Beregond by the polite plural, but he does not because Beregond approached him as equal in the first place. Something similar happens with Bergil, who automatically addresses Pippin in singular - and somehow you get the feeling, at the moment Pippin says "I'm 29", that the boy should be shocked and would have liked to correct his mistake of not addressing Pippin in plural - addressing Pippin in singular also further implies (to the reader) that Bergil thought Pippin to be a child.

[Galadriel55]

Hurray for brother languages!

Originally Posted by Legate

Otherwise, the Hobbits tend to address other people by the polite plural, and for example when they first meet Strider, they call him that way.

I haven't thought of that. They do in the Russian translation as well, and somewhere along the conversation Strider calls Frodo ty, and then explains that he is used to that form. After that, they address each other familiarly.

And that reminds me - Butterbur and Nob use the formal as well in my translation.

Originally Posted by Legate

In Czech, you could theoretically use the singular form in derogatory sense (as the W-K or even Éowyn towards him might be assumed to do), to someone whom you actually should address by the polite plural, but you decide not to in order to mock him. It brings to mind some 17-century colonialist guy addressing primitive natives in singular.

That's interresting. As far as I know, the polite plural is relatively modern in history terms. Only a couple hundred years. The earlier Zhars, and before them - princes, were always called ty. So for me, when I see Theoden, Elrond, Denethor, and other rulers being called ty, I think "ancient".

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I haven't thought of that. They do in the Russian translation as well, and somewhere along the conversation Strider calls Frodo ty, and then explains that he is used to that form. After that, they address each other familiarly.

Wait, do you actually say that they added such a thing into the book?

And that reminds me - Butterbur and Nob use the formal as well in my translation.

Indeed they do so in Czech as well, I guess that's the polite manner of the businessmen, being polite to your customers.

That's interresting. As far as I know, the polite plural is relatively modern in history terms. Only a couple hundred years. The earlier Zhars, and before them - princes, were always called ty. So for me, when I see Theoden, Elrond, Denethor, and other rulers being called ty, I think "ancient".

That's true, the polite plural is a rather modern invention in general. But now that I think of that, in Czech, calling nobles "ty" probably happens mostly only in fairytales, and in the few old sagas we have (or rather I am thinking of the one collection of old sagas which was written down in the 19th century), otherwise, an average person does not get to read things where a king is called "ty", so it sounds probably even much less natural than in many other languages, simply because of the lack of old sources.

[morwen edhelwen]

Bit of thread drift; but, Estelyn, are you German by citizenship/nationality, or do you just live in Germany? As for the "thee" and 'thou", I always thought it was meant to signify, as you said:
1.authority(familiarity, I especially remember Shakespeare's use of it in Romeo and Juliet, from studying it in English class and other plays, as part of insults and in conversations between masters and servants. I think the idea here (but I am not an expert, just what I think) is, or was, that if "you in general" are in authority over another person, you can be 'familiar" in a way to them, as in the days when thou and thee were in common use, social circles were tight and the rich were (just assuming) more secure in the thought that their servants wouldn't reveal any of the masters' secrets.

People (in general) love to talk about others, especially if those others are seen as "better" in some way.

2. familiarity, between close friends and family members. I think Tolkien is using both senses(i haven't looked at the book in a long time as I don't know where my family's copy went)

[Elmo]

Andreth says to Finrod in the Athrabeth: "But say not thou to me, for so he once did!" Which implies she is not comfortable with the reminder of the closeness that she had to Aegnor which Finrod reminds her of, ( or she thought Finrod was patronising her!)

By the way, what a great piece of writing the Athrabeth is!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Morwen, I'm of German background, though not born in Germany nor a citizen, but I live here permanently. It's complicated...

Yes, you basically have the two main usages of "thee" and "thou", perhaps with the addition of the religious usage, which we find in passages of Tolkien's work as well.

Elmo, that's a great find! I haven't read the Athrabeth in quite a while, so I didn't remember that.