WW XCVI - The Fell Winter of 2911

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Meneltarmacil

I'm no wolf, nor do I help them. The wolves involved in these lynchings need not be particularly loud, nor is every innocent lynched only by wolves.

However, even if innocents are lynching innocents, you can bet that there will be at least one wolf making sure his fellows aren't going to the noose. Whether he is making the major arguments himself or merely reinforcing those made by the gullible, I still expect a wolf or two to be involved when multiple innocents are lynched in a row.

Well yes, that's their job description, isn' it? And yes, if innocents are lynched, of course those who pushed the lynch will be questioned; nothing of that is new IMO.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Nopes and that's not what I thought. Rather, it would be in the wolves' interest to bring attention to the cobbler. Now it's me who's a hypocrite to boot though, considering my eternal love for discussing the cobbler's role and tactics. But I'm still allowed to accuse everyone else who does it.

So in a game the defining characteristic of which, compared to other games, is a power boost to the role of the cobbler, wishing to discuss this power and how it affects the game is a sign of wolvery? What else would you like to discuss then?

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I hear they're nutritious. Regular consumption will make you fit enough to fight wolves single-handedly. Would you like to try some?

Thanks, no. I've heard the enhanced fitness may come at the cost of uncontrollable body hair growth.


EDIT: x-ed with Zil

[Meneltarmacil]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Thanks, no. I've heard the enhanced fitness may come at the cost of uncontrollable body hair growth.

However, if you want something that will make you stronger, I happen to have a bottle of entdraught* that I'll sell for only 20 shiremarks. Doesn't get any cheaper than that!

*Unmentioned note: Actually just Old Forest water mixed with beer.

[Kath]

I get not mentioning whether the Seer dreams or not in the narration. I suppose we just have to assume they do. But if the Ranger misses a protection and the person they were going to protect dies would the narration stay vague or would it specify whether the person didn't die due to a) Ranger protection, b) Cobbler interference or c) Wolvish incompetence.

And, good point about the Cobbler needing to avoid Night-kills. So what happens if the Cobbler gets Night-killed but has named the Seer or Ranger in their nightly pick? Does the pick still go ahead or not?

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

No. I'll let her/him know they've made a hit though.

I take this to mean the narration won't say anything about the cobbler's activities. Otherwise she'd get to know the person's exact role.

And yeah we can't ignore the cobbler but there isn't a lot we can do about her right now either because she'll appear as an ordo to the seer. All the usual rules apply: lynch whoever is suspicious, no matter if you suspect them of furriness or das Schuhmachen.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

So in a game the defining characteristic of which, compared to other games, is a power boost to the role of the cobbler, wishing to discuss this power and how it affects the game is a sign of wolvery? What else would you like to discuss then?

Yes. We're all wolves (except you who are the self-confessed cobbler), and I'd just like to talk about myself.

Originally Posted by Kath

But if the Ranger misses a protection and the person they were going to protect dies would the narration stay vague or would it specify whether the person didn't die due to a) Ranger protection, b) Cobbler interference or c) Wolvish incompetence.

If the person dies because the cobbler stopped the ranger, she dies and that's it - if there was a narration about the cobbler holding the ranger back in a bear hug, the former would definitely learn which gifted she stopped.
And if the cobbler doesn't stop the ranger and she makes a successful save, I can't see any specific reason not to mention it.

So what happens if the Cobbler gets Night-killed but has named the Seer or Ranger in their nightly pick? Does the pick still go ahead or not?

I would imagine it does.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Kath

So what happens if the Cobbler gets Night-killed but has named the Seer or Ranger in their nightly pick? Does the pick still go ahead or not?

In other words, "If we screw up and kill our cobbler, will we still profit from xyr pick?"
Never mind what I said above about cobbler discussion in general, who but the wolves would need to worry about that?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I take this to mean the narration won't say anything about the cobbler's activities.

Obviously. It will be a lot of running in the dark, of course, the Ranger/Seer will know, but that won't help the "common folk" much. But then again, it really does not matter (technically) whether some kill occured because the person wasn't protected or because the Cobbler succeeded in targeting the Ranger - the person is still simply dead. In fact, it might even confuse the WWs - because it will be harder for them to determine the Ranger's identity that way, for example (i.e. they couldn't make conclusions based on who was likely to protect whom etc...)

Yes. We're all wolves (except you who are the self-confessed cobbler), and I'd just like to talk about myself.

We know you like nothing more than that.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

In other words, "If we screw up and kill our cobbler, will we still profit from xyr pick?"
Never mind what I said above about cobbler discussion in general, who but the wolves would need to worry about that?

Hm, good spot. But then again, I think even innocents can speculate on theoretical basis - after all, what else is all this cobbler-pick debate about...

Anyway, so far, many of the people are "no show" and I am afraid I won't be around when the main debate starts. But no can do. I am trying to make as much as I can out of being here now, though of course there is nothing much to work with yet.

Shasta - exactly one of the no show folks
Menel - nothing special this far, I have no intention to get rid of him for no special reason when playing with him after such a long time
Glirdan - no show yet?
G55 - a bit in the beginning, nothing striking about her
Nerwen - again, nothing there
Legate - that's me
Pitchwife - a very nice discussion-starter, interesting digging deep into the Cobbler-issues, one can of course ask whether there isn't some agenda behind it, if he was a Wolf trying to find the Cobbler, then his Kath-spot might be attempt to randomly accuse someone, but if he was a Cobbler fishing for Wolves, not sure if he would start bringing attention to people who could be potential Wolves in his eyes; anyway, interesting persona
Nogrod - I fear of seeing him posting at 5 AM, when I am no longer here...
Lommy – nothing special this far
Inzil - talkative, but hard to make out anything out of that, though I'm somewhat wary
Aganzir - a bit the same case as Pitch, one of the Cob-talkers
Sally - no show...
Kath - ha, actually, I think I am sort of forming an opinion about her - which is most unusual, because normally I have no clue about her whatsoever! She seems in any case very active and interested, in fact, she was one of the main talkers this far... there is an air of genuine interest and activity about her, I'd say.

In any case, those are very preliminary, I mean, it's early Day 1. In general I don't have anybody I would find clearly suspicious or anything, so I hope there will be more overnight (my night) and also that I'll manage to process it before I have to vote...

[Nogrod]

J'accuse the authorities over the unhappy case of Mr. Dreyfus... oops, wrong time and place. J'accuse the football-games then... in this foul winter? Oops, again... I think I'm not perfectly balanced right now. You know us old guys...

But into reading now, erm... reminiscing about what has been said.

[Pitchwife]

Thoughts on those who have posted so far:

Gal55 - content-free first post, can be anything.

Zil - mostly commenting, reasonable points, basically his standard inscrutable self; defends Menel against me (which I actually like).

Lommy - sick, therefore excused.

Menel - has been a bit Captain Obvious and theoretical up to now, but his elaboration on his first post is sound enough, and his reaction to me doesn't strike me as particularly wolvish. Anyway, like Legate said, I'd need a good reason to vote him D1 in his first game in ages.

Legate - posting behaviour similar to Zil, reasonable stuff, wishy-washy as far as suspicions go (which is nothing new), except he seems to feel good about Kath.

Kath - "interested and active", yes, and I find no fault in wanting to discuss the new and improved(TM) cobbler, but the piece from her last post I paraphrased seems to me to be thinking too much from the perspective of the wolves.

Agan - don't trust her farther than I can throw her on general principle, but there's nothing especially alerting yet, except maybe the bit about me being the cobbler, where I'm not sure whether she was teasing me, suspecting me or hinting at me (probably not the latter, too obvious).

- The above was written before everybody started talking, especially before Gal accused Menel, which is exactly the sort of latching-on I hoped to provoke by poking at him (and yes, Menel, I think we've all got what your point was by now). And look, Nog is doing it too, casting some doubt but not actually committing to anything. I don't approve. As for his point about Zil, I'll need that explained to me, because I don't really get what he's trying to say.

Btw, I have to vote within the next half hour or so, DL being in the middle of my workday. I could imagine voting Kath for that wolf-think quote, but we'll see.

[Nerwen]

Here's a mug of beer for each of you gentlehobbits– drink deep and drown your sorrows. Don't worry. it's on the house. (Inzil just doesn't know it yet.)

Now, I couldn't help overhearing some of the conversation, and I must say, Menel seems intent on stating the obvious– wolves will try to lynch innocents? You don't say?


'Course, he's been out of town a good long while on his travels, and has maybe forgotten how we do things here.

X'd with the Retired Barkeep.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

In other words, "If we screw up and kill our cobbler, will we still profit from xyr pick?"
Never mind what I said above about cobbler discussion in general, who but the wolves would need to worry about that?

I like your paraphrasing well enough. Which means that the way Kath initiated the cobbler talk raised my hackles a tiny bit and you gave words to my feeling.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Image the situations of the Seer being revealed, having the last dream among us and being targeted... and so on.

Not that I'd think our seer is dumb or anything, but she shouldn't forget about the cobbler before revealing if she hasn't targeted her before.

Oh yay, this is one of those villages we can't really even trust the seer because the cobbler appears as an ordo.

Speaking of her... shh... Kitanna, you still haven't corrected the typo of "for the rest of the day" in your Cobbler description

Says the one who asked if the ranger can protect two people in a row.

I'm off to bed now. I'll pop in and vote before work tomorrow, and if I'm feeling energetic, I may even stay and post for a while.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I don't know your playing style, and it might have changed anyways over your absence, and playing for the first time after a big break can be nervewracking, I guess, but you do sound a bit too concerned.

I think his playing style is nothing out of ordinary. Whether that's a good or a bad thing though, who can tell?

Why "her"? I can't wave it off as a typo, because you refer as the cobbler like that twice, and in different forms of the word!

Look at my last post and you'll see I'm also the seer.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Elaboration on how the narrative will reflect a block would indeed be useful. I'd also like to add that with the Cobbler's extra abilities this go around, there ought not to be anyone saying something "Leave X be; just a Cobbler".

Quite. This is probably the only time I will fall away from my usual approach and consider the Cobbler worth lynching when it comes to that. Image the situations of the Seer being revealed, having the last dream among us and being targeted... and so on.

Originally Posted by Kath

I get not mentioning whether the Seer dreams or not in the narration. I suppose we just have to assume they do. But if the Ranger misses a protection and the person they were going to protect dies would the narration stay vague or would it specify whether the person didn't die due to a) Ranger protection, b) Cobbler interference or c) Wolvish incompetence.

And, good point about the Cobbler needing to avoid Night-kills. So what happens if the Cobbler gets Night-killed but has named the Seer or Ranger in their nightly pick? Does the pick still go ahead or not?

Well, the Cobbler needs to avoid the Night-kills in every game, of course. The new thing is that probably this time around the Wolves care a bit more for the Cobbler than usual, because of the "bonus abilities".

As for the Cobbler's death and the ability still being active, I'd think so. In the Werebear games, for instance, if the Ranger was night-killed e.g. by the Bear but protected a person targeted by the Wolves, she most often still protected the person from the Wolves, even though she died herself. I would say this would be analogical case. Or, technically, just like a non-logical Hunter killing whomever. But maybe the Moddess can clarify.

Speaking of her... shh... Kitanna, you still haven't corrected the typo of "for the rest of the day" in your Cobbler description

Overall - I think I'll try to prepare some very short summary on what I think of people this far. I see the Cobbler-talk has dominated most of the debate, but that's pretty okay, I think. Better than sitting here being mute.

EDIT: x-ed with Agan and Pitch

[Galadriel55]

I'm popping in before leaving for a couple hours again and commenting as I read.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Wolfberries...

Hmmm....

Originally Posted by Meneltarmacil

I'm no wolf, nor do I help them. The wolves involved in these lynchings need not be particularly loud, nor is every innocent lynched only by wolves.

This looks a bit overly defensive/dramatic for my taste. And this:

Originally Posted by Menel

However, even if innocents are lynching innocents, you can bet that there will be at least one wolf making sure his fellows aren't going to the noose. Whether he is making the major arguments himself or merely reinforcing those made by the gullible, I still expect a wolf or two to be involved when multiple innocents are lynched in a row.

...is the second time you're stating the obvious.

I don't know your playing style, and it might have changed anyways over your absence, and playing for the first time after a big break can be nervewracking, I guess, but you do sound a bit too concerned.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

And yeah we can't ignore the cobbler but there isn't a lot we can do about her right now either because she'll appear as an ordo to the seer.

(Bolding mine)

Ok, I'm seriously hyperventilating right now. My alarm turned on when you said "her". I don't always write both genders, or a cross (like "xe"), but then people usually choose male over female. Why "her"? I can't wave it off as a typo, because you refer as the cobbler like that twice, and in different forms of the word! This makes me wonder about your role, Agan. Considering that, as you said, the seer doesn't differentiate a cobbler from an ordo, who else but the cobbler themself and the Moddess would know the correct gender of that role? What else, but the exact knowledge, could have caused this slip?

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

In other words, "If we screw up and kill our cobbler, will we still profit from xyr pick?"
Never mind what I said above about cobbler discussion in general, who but the wolves would need to worry about that?

Umm, innocents? We don't want the pick to go through!


Edit: xed since #23

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by G55

My alarm turned on when you said "her". I don't always write both genders, or a cross (like "xe"), but then people usually choose male over female. Why "her"? I can't wave it off as a typo, because you refer as the cobbler like that twice, and in different forms of the word! This makes me wonder about your role, Agan.

You mean her role as "Finnish feminist"?

Really, I doubt very much whether it could be a slip. Agan's hardly a n00b...

Prediction: Agan will now find me highly suspicious for defending her.

Edit: X'd with Agan.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Umm, innocents? We don't want the pick to go through!

No, we don't, but whatever happens if the cobbler is Night-killed has no bearing on how we play, because the Night kill is out of our hands, so it concerns us much less than it does the wolves.