Arwen vs. Galadriel

[cellurdur]

IMHO Galadriel was right when she refused the pardon, because for what should she need to be forgiven? For leaving Aman?
The Valar were wrong.

No the Valar were right. The Valar cursed the Noldor for leaving, because of their actions. The right thing to do would be go and ask pardon. Ultimately the Valar would have sent a force. Finarfin acted in the correct manner and you will note he was the one that gained everything. He gained the High Kingship of all the Noldor, he was the one who led the Noldor to victory. If his children and relatives had listened then things would have turned out much better.

"Elrond's character had yet to be fully developed when The Hobbit was first published. Rateliff's The History of The Hobbit has a detailed section on Elrond's character, as Rateliff notes:

...and the very presense of Elrond himself, who is certainly not described as an elf (at the end of the chapter Elrond, the hobbit, the wizard, and the dwarves go outside to 'see the elves' dance and sing) and seems to not have been conceived of as an immortal or even particularly long lived at this point, - The History of The Hobbit: Mr. Baggins; Ch III, Rivendell.

And in The Annotated, in A Short Rest: note 9, Anderson refers to a 1964 letter where Tolkien called Elrond's naming a "fortunate accident":

Tolkien wrote to Christopher Bretherton in a letter of July 16, 1964, "The Passage in Ch. 3 relating him to the Half-elven of the mythology was a fortunate accident, due to the difficulty of constantly inventing good names for new characters. I gave him the name Elrond casually, but as this came from the mythology...I made him half-elven."

"Tolkien needed a name for this character in The Hobbit who was an "elf-friend" and the master of Rivendell, and it appears he casually plucked the name Elrond. This would become a fortunate accident, because Tolkien realized Elrond was already a character in his mythology, and already the "half-mortal and half-elfin" child of Earendel and Elwing ("Sketch of the Mythology"). I'm not sure when Elrond's full character gets fleshed out, but it would not be anytime before LOTR."

That all is copied from someone who wrote that in another forum.

Well, I wouldn´t read too much into it.
Elrond "chose to be counted among the Eldar" and therefore is included in that quote despite being half elven, with Arwen it´s a little more difficult, but alone the fact that Tolkien said that her and Aragons wedding was the third between the Eldar and Edain is prove enough for me.
They are called called half - elven, not half-man, so it is reasonable if they would be included in such a general statement.

What does that have to do with anything? Tolkien comments on how he was fortunate he used Elrond's name, but it does not change his status as one of the Half-Elven. The Half-elven are their own separate group. I have given several quotes distinguishing Elrond from other Elf-lords and his children too. None of the Half-Elven were elves. There is only one slip up when he talks about the marriages of the Eldar and the Edain and he quickly corrects this one letter. Through out the Lengendarium he is consistent in showing the difference.

In fact his quote about Elrond having the best chance out of anyone except the Maia suggest Elrond has a greater innate power.

Yes, Eomer thought Arwen was fairer, Gimli Galadriel, so now, what was Tolkiens opinion on that? Maybe he wasn´t sure. Whose opinion has more weight?

Except we have Aragorn's, Gilraen's and the references to Arwen's similarity to Luthien.

When did they rejected Finrod? He was king and would have stayed king, if he would not have helped Beren, Feanor nobody liked and Galadriel would have been Queen after Gil Galad, if they would have let a women rule, but at that time the Noldor left ME.

They rejected Finrod when Curufin and Celegorm convinced them to abandon the king. The elves of Eregion by one story rejected Galadriel in favour of Celebrimbor.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

According to me it doesn't. Being a descendant does not necessarily trump a separate quality. It's comparing apples to oranges - being less powerful than the other's ancestors, but in your own right, or not being as special by yourself but having inherited something due to your ancestry.

In Tolkien, nobility is not just down to actions, but to descent as well. Part of the reason Arwen was so great was her descent. The rest was in her actions.

There is a difference between doing nothing peacefully and doing something peacefully. The only problem is that the something turned quite bloody, but not by Galadriel's will.

The Vanyar and the remaining Noldor DID do something. They were the ones who won the war. They regained the Silmarils. Being wise and not too hasty is a virtue.

And if everyone acted perfectly we would not have a story. *sigh* But that's beside the point. Thing is, we see so few of Arwen's actions that we can't really judge her. Galadriel does things imperfectly. Arwen doesn't do much at all. Galadriel learns wisdom and humility. Arwen becomes mortal. You decide which is the apple and which is the orange.

That is true, but it does not matter when judging characters. Tolkien himself says that people have to fall, to give us the story, but falling is a failure.

I agree we do not really know enough about Arwen to judge, but we only know that she was very similar to Luthien.

I don't get your last point? How is becoming mortal anything to do with character? Earendil would have happily become a mortal as would many elves like Galadriel's own brother Aegnor.

All the Noldor Princes/Ladies were quite deeply flawed and this is why Elrond distances himself from them and would rather be Thingol's heir.

[elbenprincess]

Oh yes, Thingol was of course not flawed

That Elrond distances himself from the Noldor because of their past, makes me almost not liking him (almost!) If it wasn´t for the Noldor leaving Aman despite the Valar cammanding them to stay, there would be no Elrond. One could ask for a little more respect regarding his Noldorin ancestors.

I wouldn´t call them flawed (except Feanor and his sons), I would call them people with character.

Part of the reason Arwen was so great was her descent

Oh please really, where was Arwen "so great", she just happens to marry the King of Arnor and Gondor. Origianlly he would even have married Eowyn.

In fact his quote about Elrond having the best chance out of anyone except the Maia suggest Elrond has a greater innate power.

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.
Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).

It says "IF" Galadriel could, Elrond could too, but that is not the case.

Here's that next line...

But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power.

It says Galadriel thought she could, but that was because of one of the Ring's key powers - deception. Galadriel was deceived into thinking that she could use the Ring for herself, so was Elrond, maybe even to a greater degree.

That doesn´t make Elrond more powerful than Galadriel, actually i think it´s very unlikely that Elrond has more innate power, when you have in mind what Tolkien has written about her in comparision to Feanor.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

Oh yes, Thingol was of course not flawed

That Elrond distances himself from the Noldor because of their past, makes me almost not liking him (almost!) If it wasn´t for the Noldor leaving Aman despite the Valar cammanding them to stay, there would be no Elrond. One could ask for a little more respect regarding his Noldorin ancestors.

I wouldn´t call them flawed (except Feanor and his sons), I would call them people with character.

Thingol had his flaws, but disobeying the King of the World was not one of them. Of course Elrond respects them, but disobeying the Valar and receiving a ban is no small matter. Worse still they were kin slayers in Aman itself. I know Galadriel and the House of Finarfin did not take part in this. Rather Galadriel in most accounts defended her kin, but then she STILL left with the Noldor.

I like the Noldor and they certainly did have character, but just like Turin and Morwen, whom resembled them so much; they had too much pride.

In retrospect distancing himself is perhaps too harsh. He rather traced his heritage to Elwe over Fingolfin/Finwe.

where as Elrond remained among the elves and carried on the lineage of Elwe.
and then the note adds
And Turgon; though he preferred that of Elwe, who was not under the ban that was laid on the exiles.

Oh please really, where was Arwen "so great", she just happens to marry the King of Arnor and Gondor. Origianlly he would even have married Eowyn.

Originally Aragorn was a hobbit with a peg leg.

It does not distract from Galadriel's greatness, that Arwen was great in her own right. Aragorn actually uses Arwen's greatness to praise her.

O lady of Lorienof whom sprung Celebrian and Arwen Evenstar. What praise could I say more

Arwen was great and this reflects on Galadriel not just, because she was her grandmother, but also due to the tutelage Arwen received.

It says "IF" Galadriel could, Elrond could too, but that is not the case.

Here's that next line...

But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power.

It says Galadriel thought she could, but that was because of one of the Ring's key powers - deception. Galadriel was deceived into thinking that she could use the Ring for herself.

That doesn´t make Elrond more powerful than Galadriel, actually i think it´s very unlikely that Elrond has more innate power, when you have in mind what Tolkien has written about her in comparision to Feanor.

I too don't think even Galadriel could defeat Sauron in person with the ring. That is not to say she would not defeat him in other ways. Like even lesser powers she would just command huge army and defeat Sauron that way. As powerful as Sauron was, Numenor alone was too great for him to handle in might alone.

However, the point still stands that when it came to a confrontation based on innate power alone, Elrond had the greatest chance of victory. It is Elrond who is given the most powerful ring. It is Elrond, who holds out against Sauron's siege too. Melian was a Maia on par and perhaps greater than Sauron. Luthien was an elf greater than Sauron. Six thousand years and over 60 generations down the line, this same ancestry is still giving Aragorn great healing powers.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

In Tolkien, nobility is not just down to actions, but to descent as well. Part of the reason Arwen was so great was her descent. The rest was in her actions.

I do not disagree. Both have great ancestors, but Arwen has the greater ones. Both do great deeds, but Galadriel does the greater ones. How do you balance it out? You can't. It's apples and oranges.

The Vanyar and the remaining Noldor DID do something. They were the ones who won the war. They regained the Silmarils. Being wise and not too hasty is a virtue.

That's beside the point. They won the war - after an Age of doing... what? Sitting at home, carving jewels, watching the stars... Life in Valinor is good when you are weary and seek rest. But what about when you are still young, vigorous, ambitious? When you don't want to just take and enjoy what the Valar have provided, but want to build yourself? Enjoyment wears off together with appreciation.

That is true, but it does not matter when judging characters. Tolkien himself says that people have to fall, to give us the story, but falling is a failure.

Alright. Sure. It's failure. But it makes a character more interesting to read about. I love Galadriel (who has fallen and risen again) as a character more than I do Arwen, who has neither fallen nor risen. She not only does little in the physical sense, but her character is pretty stagnant, other than perhaps her decision to become mortal.

And likewise, I love Morwen more than both of them put together, even though her fall was the hardest and grandest - perhaps I love her more because her fall was the worst.

I don't get your last point? How is becoming mortal anything to do with character? Earendil would have happily become a mortal as would many elves like Galadriel's own brother Aegnor.

We don't know much of Arwen's character. We need deeds to judge character. Arwen does very few things that are her choice (I mean, she can be beautiful, but it's not really her credit); she visits Lorien. She weaves a banner. There's the look she gave Frodo in Rivendell that he always remembered afterwards, as well as giving him the necklace. And she became mortal. Coincidence or not, but many of her deeds originate in this choice. It's the most important thing to me in judging her character.

All the Noldor Princes/Ladies were quite deeply flawed and this is why Elrond distances himself from them and would rather be Thingol's heir.

Elrond distances himself from the Noldor and would rather be Thingol's heir? Where did you get this from? I can't seem to recall any such, but I may have forgotten this bit since my last read.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I do not disagree. Both have great ancestors, but Arwen has the greater ones. Both do great deeds, but Galadriel does the greater ones. How do you balance it out? You can't. It's apples and oranges.

In my opinion nobility is about character and not just great deeds. I would say Arwen was a more pure character than Galadriel. In the same way that Tuor could be said to be more pure than Turin, even if he was lesser in power. Galadriel was contemplating stealing the ring from Frodo and her temptation was greater than Aragorn or Gandalf, who too were offered the ring.

That's beside the point. They won the war - after an Age of doing... what? Sitting at home, carving jewels, watching the stars... Life in Valinor is good when you are weary and seek rest. But what about when you are still young, vigorous, ambitious? When you don't want to just take and enjoy what the Valar have provided, but want to build yourself? Enjoyment wears off together with appreciation.

They won against a more powerful army, than the rebels faced. The desire to leave and travel ME was not inherently a bad choice. If they had petitioned the Valar reasonably (like Galadriel does in some accounts) then the Valar would have granted their request. It was the manner of the their rebelling, which led to the curse.

Alright. Sure. It's failure. But it makes a character more interesting to read about. I love Galadriel (who has fallen and risen again) as a character more than I do Arwen, who has neither fallen nor risen. She not only does little in the physical sense, but her character is pretty stagnant, other than perhaps her decision to become mortal.

I agree from a literary point of view a fallen character is more interesting. Tolkien himself says this. He goes further; here are his thoughts on the matter in a letter.

There cannot be any 'story' without a fall....So proceeding the elves have a fall, before their 'history' can become storial.

Ingwe may not be the most exciting character, but I dare say he is a better elf than Feanor.

And likewise, I love Morwen more than both of them put together, even though her fall was the hardest and grandest - perhaps I love her more because her fall was the worst.

Morwen is my favourite female character and only second to Turin in my favourite characters, but she was flawed too. If Turin and her, had been less proud then their lives very possibly may have been better, but perhaps not as great. That being said Turin and Morwen were both too proud. They were both great, but their pride was their greatest fault.

We don't know much of Arwen's character. We need deeds to judge character. Arwen does very few things that are her choice (I mean, she can be beautiful, but it's not really her credit); she visits Lorien. She weaves a banner. There's the look she gave Frodo in Rivendell that he always remembered afterwards, as well as giving him the necklace. And she became mortal. Coincidence or not, but many of her deeds originate in this choice. It's the most important thing to me in judging her character.

I disagree. We know Arwen's character, but we don't know much of her deeds. Her character is similar to Luthien. Her giving Frodo the necklace was not a coincidence. She is the first one to notice the ill effects that the ring has on Frodo. She realises that healing is impossible for him in ME and arranges for him to go the Tol Eressea.

Elrond distances himself from the Noldor and would rather be Thingol's heir? Where did you get this from? I can't seem to recall any such, but I may have forgotten this bit since my last read.

Distanced himself is too strong I feel. It was my mistake to use that word. It's better to say he favoured his Sindar descent over the Noldor and considered himself Thingol's heir.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

However, the point still stands that when it came to a confrontation based on innate power alone, Elrond had the greatest chance of victory. It is Elrond who is given the most powerful ring. It is Elrond, who holds out against Sauron's siege too. Melian was a Maia on par and perhaps greater than Sauron. Luthien was an elf greater than Sauron. Six thousand years and over 60 generations down the line, this same ancestry is still giving Aragorn great healing powers.

I beg to differ. I see Galadriel as taking Melian's place in the TA when it comes to a confrontation with the main villain. Compare:

Who knows now the counsels of Morgoth? Who can measure the reach of his thought, who had been Melkor, mighty among the Ainur of the Great Song, and sat now, a dark lord upon a dark throne in the North, weighing in his malice all the tidings that came to him, and perceiving more deeds and purposes of his enemies that even the wisest of them feared, save Melian the Queen? To her often the thought of Morgoth reached out, and there was foiled.

--The Sil, of Turin Turambar (an almost exact copy of this passage is found in COH, The Land of Bow and Helm)

"But do not think that only by singing amid the trees, nor even by the slender arrows of elven-bows, is this land of Lothlorien maintained and defended against its Enemy. I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see my thought. But still the door is closed!"

--Galadriel, The Mirror of Galadriel, FOTR.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

In my opinion nobility is about character and not just great deeds. I would say Arwen was a more pure character than Galadriel. In the same way that Tuor could be said to be more pure than Turin, even if he was lesser in power. Galadriel was contemplating stealing the ring from Frodo and her temptation was greater than Aragorn or Gandalf, who too were offered the ring.

Can you tell a clean plate from an unused plate? It's one thing to go through trials and come out unscathed (which realistically never happens, near every character has some flaw), and it's another to not go through any trials at all and be nice and shiny. If I understand you right, you respect the ones that do not show any wear-and-tear of usage on them, even if they are clean. But I respect Galadriel more, because she is more flawed, perhaps, and has had many more trials than Arwen - and still she remains the clean plate, though with a chipped edge or a dent.

As for the deeds, once again - the refusal for temptation is the deed. You count it as a flaw. I count it as a refusal to succumb to a flaw. In your eyes it makes one lesser - because she was tempted, and allowed herself to be tempted badly. In my eyes, Galadriel's refusal to temptation makes her greater - because she had the nettle to resist the temptation. The greater the temptation, the greater the strength put into resisting it. If you don't have a strong temptation, you did not display sich strength of mind and will.

You cannot say that Arwen is better than Galadriel because Arwen was not tempted so badly by the Ring, because she was not tempted at all. You could compare Galadriel to Gandalf, to Frodo, Sam, Gollum, Boromir, even Aragorn to some extent, but not Arwen. Not in this case.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

They won against a more powerful army, than the rebels faced. The desire to leave and travel ME was not inherently a bad choice. If they had petitioned the Valar reasonably (like Galadriel does in some accounts) then the Valar would have granted their request. It was the manner of the their rebelling, which led to the curse.

Neither of which is what I'm talking about. I am not reciting The Sil; I am trying to explain the desire of many of the Exiles. To build a kingdom of their own, and make their own, without the Valar handing them everything. Like you want to make your own food instead of just heating up frozen foods. It is not about what they ended up doing - fighting a war, losing a war, winning a war, - it's about what they wanted to do before it all went rolling downhill.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Ingwe may not be the most exciting character, but I dare say he is a better elf than Feanor.

Certainly, Ingwe doesn't start a World War. But then, as you said, he's quite boring, and he gives me no emotion whatsoever. I cannot respect him for being good, because there wasn't much of an option (leaving with the Noldor does not count, since the Vanyar were not affected by Morgoth's lies in the first place). He's an unused plate. You can't judge a plate without using it. On the contrary, I'm sure everyone will find some respect (at least!) for the likes of Finrod and Fingolfin, who, despite their brothers and neighbours and everything still try to be good. Even if they fail at it (which is debatable, but beside the point). I respect Fingolfin, who basically committed suicide, more than I respect Ingwe.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Morwen is my favourite female character and only second to Turin in my favourite characters, but she was flawed too. If Turin and her, had been less proud then their lives very possibly may have been better, but perhaps not as great. That being said Turin and Morwen were both too proud. They were both great, but their pride was their greatest fault.

Very true. Their main flaws were pride and deafness/blindness to truth and good advice. But they try to be good. Even if they fail utterly (which just adds to the beauty of the story). Unlike Ingwe, who doesn't even have to try.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I disagree. We know Arwen's character, but we don't know much of her deeds. Her character is similar to Luthien. Her giving Frodo the necklace was not a coincidence. She is the first one to notice the ill effects that the ring has on Frodo. She realises that healing is impossible for him in ME and arranges for him to go the Tol Eressea.

Firstly, in my opinion, we know only as much about her character as her deeds and a few descriptions allow us to perceive. She looked like Luthien, probably inherited some of her power/wisdom/insight/foresight, possibly inherited some of her character. But I cannot say she had the same character, at least based on the few actions that we do know. I cannot see Luthien sitting at home weaving a banner when Beren is off to god knows where trying to throw down a being who is a head higher than everyone else, metaphorically speaking, of course. Just like I can't see Arwen galloping off to the Paths of the Dead to...? Dunno. Help out somehow.

From the fact that she gives Frodo the necklace, I see that Arwen has wisdom and foresight. Good qualities, but precious little when it comes to character. Any average elf of the TA has this, though perhaps is lesser measure. Her metaphorical giving her place to Frodo is only possible because she chose mortality. It is dependant on her main deed, the choice between Aragorn and life.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I beg to differ. I see Galadriel as taking Melian's place in the TA when it comes to a confrontation with the main villain. Compare:



--The Sil, of Turin Turambar (an almost exact copy of this passage is found in COH, The Land of Bow and Helm)



--Galadriel, The Mirror of Galadriel, FOTR.

The same applies to Elrond and Rivendell. The difference is Melian was up against Morgoth, Galadriel could not keep out Sauron. Without Numenor all of eastern Elvish Kingdoms would have been destroyed. Galadriel would not hope to take on the host of Sauron. Luthien actually DID take on the host of Morgoth.

Can you tell a clean plate from an unused plate? It's one thing to go through trials and come out unscathed (which realistically never happens, near every character has some flaw), and it's another to not go through any trials at all and be nice and shiny. If I understand you right, you respect the ones that do not show any wear-and-tear of usage on them, even if they are clean. But I respect Galadriel more, because she is more flawed, perhaps, and has had many more trials than Arwen - and still she remains the clean plate, though with a chipped edge or a dent.

It's better to reject the temptation at the first test. This is usually better for you and all your friends. Compare the lives of the Noldor to the lives of the Vanyar.

As for the deeds, once again - the refusal for temptation is the deed. You count it as a flaw. I count it as a refusal to succumb to a flaw. In your eyes it makes one lesser - because she was tempted, and allowed herself to be tempted badly. In my eyes, Galadriel's refusal to temptation makes her greater - because she had the nettle to resist the temptation. The greater the temptation, the greater the strength put into resisting it. If you don't have a strong temptation, you did not display sich strength of mind and will.

It's better to be so pure that you are never tempted in the first place.

You cannot say that Arwen is better than Galadriel because Arwen was not tempted so badly by the Ring, because she was not tempted at all. You could compare Galadriel to Gandalf, to Frodo, Sam, Gollum, Boromir, even Aragorn to some extent, but not Arwen. Not in this case.

We do not know if Arwen was tempted or not. However, she did struggle more than Elrond, Aragorn and Gandalf. I forget that Elrond too was offered the ring at the Council. In the end the deed is all that matters, but it does show her personality was more tainted by lust for power than the others.

Neither of which is what I'm talking about. I am not reciting The Sil; I am trying to explain the desire of many of the Exiles. To build a kingdom of their own, and make their own, without the Valar handing them everything. Like you want to make your own food instead of just heating up frozen foods. It is not about what they ended up doing - fighting a war, losing a war, winning a war, - it's about what they wanted to do before it all went rolling downhill.

They were deluded and were corrupted by Morgoth, because Manwe is the King of Arda not just Aman. Where ever they tried to go they could not escape the authority of the Valar. The Teleri worked hard on their ships, the Vanyar on poetry and singing. The Noldor's reasons for returning were mostly due to the lies of Morgoth.

Certainly, Ingwe doesn't start a World War. But then, as you said, he's quite boring, and he gives me no emotion whatsoever. I cannot respect him for being good, because there wasn't much of an option (leaving with the Noldor does not count, since the Vanyar were not affected by Morgoth's lies in the first place). He's an unused plate. You can't judge a plate without using it. On the contrary, I'm sure everyone will find some respect (at least!) for the likes of Finrod and Fingolfin, who, despite their brothers and neighbours and everything still try to be good. Even if they fail at it (which is debatable, but beside the point). I respect Fingolfin, who basically committed suicide, more than I respect Ingwe.

You are confusing being a boring person, with a boring story. It seems strange to me that you cannot respect someone for being good. We have very different views. Being good is harder and better than being bad.

The Vanyar were tempted by Morgoth just like the Noldor, but they resisted it and did not fall under the shadow. This is to their credit. Again it seems odd that you respect Fingolfin for leading his people to destruction over a wiser ruler who kept his people safe. The Noldor leave to fight Morgoth having no clue about his true power for mainly selfish reasons. The Vanyar leave fully aware of Morgoth's might for selfless reasons. I respect the Vanyar far more than the Noldor on this. We will never see eye to eye on this matter.

Very true. Their main flaws were pride and deafness/blindness to truth and good advice. But they try to be good. Even if they fail utterly (which just adds to the beauty of the story). Unlike Ingwe, who doesn't even have to try.

What? Everyone has to strive to be good. Ingwe just made the right decisions so did not suffer. His people were untroubled and had happy lives. He was the High King of all elves.

Firstly, in my opinion, we know only as much about her character as her deeds and a few descriptions allow us to perceive. She looked like Luthien, probably inherited some of her power/wisdom/insight/foresight, possibly inherited some of her character. But I cannot say she had the same character, at least based on the few actions that we do know. I cannot see Luthien sitting at home weaving a banner when Beren is off to god knows where trying to throw down a being who is a head higher than everyone else, metaphorically speaking, of course. Just like I can't see Arwen galloping off to the Paths of the Dead to...? Dunno. Help out somehow.

You canot say she has the same character as Luthien, but Tolkien can and he does. As the author of the story he can gives us definitive statements. Like when he tells us Sam, Frodo and Bilbo still eventually die in Tol Eressea. He tells us outright Luthien and Arwen had a similar character. Luthien too sat at home and respected the authority of Thingol. It was only when things became desperate for Beren and he was days away from death did she interfere. Arwen on the other hand did not have Luthien's power or the need to rush out and save Aragorn. She helped him as she could and had faith in him.

From the fact that she gives Frodo the necklace, I see that Arwen has wisdom and foresight. Good qualities, but precious little when it comes to character. Any average elf of the TA has this, though perhaps is lesser measure. Her metaphorical giving her place to Frodo is only possible because she chose mortality. It is dependant on her main deed, the choice between Aragorn and life.

If any average had this wisdom then why was she the first to notice? Why do the elves accept her as their queen? What do you mean she metaphorically gives Frodo her place? Arwen arranging Frodo's place on the boat has nothing to do with her being mortal. Or how do you explain Gimli, Sam and Bilbo all gaining a place. She was not being literal.

[elbenprincess]

The same applies to Elrond and Rivendell. The difference is Melian was up against Morgoth, Galadriel could not keep out Sauron. Without Numenor all of eastern Elvish Kingdoms would have been destroyed. Galadriel would not hope to take on the host of Sauron. Luthien actually DID take on the host of Morgoth.

It is stated that Galadriel

Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur; but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself. Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lórien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.

Nothing similiar is said regarding Elrond, later in the passage she resebles Luthien in her deed to destroy Dol Guldur. So I would agree that Galadriel somewhat takes the place of Melian, her defence of Lorien is similar to that of Doriath, just to a lesser degree. And that she could see Saurosn thought and still her thougts are hidden from him.

It is Elrond who is given the most powerful ring

Elrond was not even the original bearer, the three were given to the tree greatest of the Eldar (of this time) Galadriel, Cirdan and Gil Galad.

It's better to reject the temptation at the first test. This is usually better for you and all your friends. Compare the lives of the Noldor to the lives of the Vanyar.

The more powerful you are, the more tempted you are, the ring wanted the strongest master to come again to his real master.
Besides Galadriel has good reason to be tempted, more than Elrond, she was really in a dilemma, we must assume that she thought of her self as still being banned and allowing the ring to be destroyed could probably destroy her last home, for before the temptation she wouldn´t know that she could return to Valinor.
Elrond wouldn´t have this pressure, if things would went terribly wrong, he could take Arwen and flee to Aman, Galadriel never wold have the possibility, being banned.

Galadriel was contemplating to steel the ring

She never planned to take the ring, she was tempted, but she didn´t ask Frodo to look in der mirror, just to get the ring.

Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve

So even before Frodo entered Lorien she decided to refuse the ring.

When I compare the Noldor to the Vanya, the Vanya sure had the more comfortable life, but the Noldor were the heroes, matter of histories, legnds and songs, they made the more important deeds, they had a fullfilled life, the Vanyar were always in their golden cage, they never learned to take care of themselves. I wouldn´t want the life of a Vanyar, that wouldn´t satisfy me. I can understand the Noldor, they wanted to see what they were able to achieve alone, without the help of the Valar, of course there is a risk, but they accepted that. Individual fulfilment was very important to them and for that they had to leave Aman at least for a time.

If they had petitioned the Valar reasonably (like Galadriel does in some accounts) then the Valar would have granted their request. It was the manner of the their rebelling, which led to the curse.

Could they really be sure that they would granted their wish, there is no accord that anyone if leaving Aman to ME except the Istati and Glorfindel. Maybe some were afraid that they never would get the opportunity.

And again, WHY does the Noldor have to ask the Valar to leave? Aren´t they free? That´s really not their business where the Eldar are going and why must they give a good reason, it´s their life and they can do with it what they want.

And if the Valar later would allow them to leave, why not allow them at this point to leave, does it really matter if they leave 100 years earlier or 100 years later?
It seems to me they were overcharged.

and she became involved in the desperate measures of Manwe, and the ban on all emigration

They really had no idea what they were doing. Something was going against their wishes and so they had to punish everyody and not just the Noldor who deserves the punishment (The kinslayers and oathtakers).

The Noldor leave to fight Morgoth having no clue about his true power for mainly selfish reasons.

I don´t think the majority wanted to fight Morgoth, I think the most, like Galadriel just wanted to see new lands. Isn´t it somewhere noted that the Noldor long before Morgoth influenced them had the desire to go to ME, but that it just came to the surface during Feanors rebellion?

They were deluded and were corrupted by Morgoth, because Manwe is the King of Arda not just Aman. Where ever they tried to go they could not escape the authority of the Valar. The Teleri worked hard on their ships, the Vanyar on poetry and singing. The Noldor's reasons for returning were mostly due to the lies of Morgoth.

That is the problem, "where ever they tried to go they could not escape the authority of the Valar" isn´t that terrible? It´s like a big jail, or like you would never be able to move away from your parents, cause they force you to stay in a little vilage.

I don´t see them being corrupted by Morgoth just because they wanted to leave Aman, they had dreams. It´s true, Arda belonged to the Valar but I see no crime in the need to be a little distanced from them, because you want to make your own experiences, that doesn´t mean that the Eldar who went into exil didn´t love the Valar anymore. Maybe the Valar thought that the Noldor don´t love them anymore, but Galadriel for example, and certaily other Noldor, still revered the Valar very much.

[elbenprincess]

Another thing that occured to me is Galadriels pardon. What was the condition? Did she have to repent going to ME?

We also know that ban, per Letter # 297, was lifted because she refused the Ring

Her prayer was granted - but also her personal ban was lifted, in reward for her services against Sauron, and above all for her rejection of the temptation to take the Ring when offered to her. So at the end we see her taking ship.

So she was able to return because of that, was there more?

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

Another thing that occured to me is Galadriels pardon. What was the condition? Did she have to repent going to ME?
So she was able to return because of that, was there more?

No she was banned for her part in being one of the leaders in the rebellion. Tolkien later on was considering changing her significant role in leading the Noldor, but she was always going to under ban for disobeying the Noldor.

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

It is stated that Galadriel

Nothing similiar is said regarding Elrond, later in the passage she resebles Luthien in her deed to destroy Dol Guldur. So I would agree that Galadriel somewhat takes the place of Melian, her defence of Lorien is similar to that of Doriath, just to a lesser degree. And that she could see Saurosn thought and still her thougts are hidden from him.

No the same thing is said about Rivendell.

What power still remains lies with us, here in Imladris, or with Cirdan at the Havens, or in Lorien. But have they the strength, have we the strength to withstand the enemy, the coming of Sauron at the last; when all else is overthrown?
'I have not the strength.' said Elron; 'neither have they'

Yes her defense is impressive, but how is it more impressive than Elrond's defense of Imladris? Elrond without the help of his ring defended Rivendell against Sauron in person with his entire army at his back. This was Sauron using the One Ring.

It is Elrond, who takes out all 9 wraiths at the same time when they attempt to enter his realm.

The more powerful you are, the more tempted you are, the ring wanted the strongest master to come again to his real master.
Besides Galadriel has good reason to be tempted, more than Elrond, she was really in a dilemma, we must assume that she thought of her self as still being banned and allowing the ring to be destroyed could probably destroy her last home, for before the temptation she wouldn´t know that she could return to Valinor.
Elrond wouldn´t have this pressure, if things would went terribly wrong, he could take Arwen and flee to Aman, Galadriel never wold have the possibility, being banned.

Who told you the more powerful the more tempted you are? That is rubbish. Do you think Gollum was more powerful than Faramir? Or Boromir more powerful than Aragorn? The weakness is in the individual not their power. Of course with more innate power you can actually accomplish more.

So did everyone else just like Boromir. You defense of Galadriel is becoming to desperate. Everyone had much to lose and much to gain by using the Ring and if we are honest none more so than Aragorn of Gandalf.

She never planned to take the ring, she was tempted, but she didn´t ask Frodo to look in der mirror, just to get the ring.

No, but she was considering stealing it from Frodo if he passed through her land.

Would not that have been a noble deed to set to the credit of his ring, if I had taken it by force or fear from my guest?

She does reject this train of thought, but at the same time she greatly desire Frodo to offer her the ring. Characters with pride without majesty do not.

So even before Frodo entered Lorien she decided to refuse the ring.

No she was unsure of what she would do until the moment itself happened.

When I compare the Noldor to the Vanya, the Vanya sure had the more comfortable life, but the Noldor were the heroes, matter of histories, legnds and songs, they made the more important deeds, they had a fullfilled life, the Vanyar were always in their golden cage, they never learned to take care of themselves. I wouldn´t want the life of a Vanyar, that wouldn´t satisfy me. I can understand the Noldor, they wanted to see what they were able to achieve alone, without the help of the Valar, of course there is a risk, but they accepted that. Individual fulfilment was very important to them and for that they had to leave Aman at least for a time.

You keep forgetting that the Vanyar were the ones, who actually defeated Morgoth.

There is more to life than just fighting and wars. It's a shame that more people would not be happy with living in a paradise with their friends and family. The Noldor were power hungry and influenced by Morgoth. In the end it cost them and they were forced to return to Aman anyway.

Could they really be sure that they would granted their wish, there is no accord that anyone if leaving Aman to ME except the Istati and Glorfindel. Maybe some were afraid that they never would get the opportunity.

The Valar had said several times the elves were free to come and go as they pleased.

And again, WHY does the Noldor have to ask the Valar to leave? Aren´t they free? That´s really not their business where the Eldar are going and why must they give a good reason, it´s their life and they can do with it what they want.

Manwe is King of Arda. It is his business. He is the king and rightful ruler. He is put there by Illuvatar and understands HIS will better than anyone else. That sort of reasoning is how Melkor became Morgoth.

And if the Valar later would allow them to leave, why not allow them at this point to leave, does it really matter if they leave 100 years earlier or 100 years later?
It seems to me they were overcharged.

It matters in the manner. Leaving in toe with a mad man, who had broken the Valars laws and sworn a destructive oath was there choice. They then doubled their misery by committing murder before they went.

They really had no idea what they were doing. Something was going against their wishes and so they had to punish everyody and not just the Noldor who deserves the punishment (The kinslayers and oathtakers).

No the Noldor did many crimes and were rightly punished. They had a choice to reject the actions of Feanor and his people, but instead they followed him.

I don´t think the majority wanted to fight Morgoth, I think the most, like Galadriel just wanted to see new lands. Isn´t it somewhere noted that the Noldor long before Morgoth influenced them had the desire to go to ME, but that it just came to the surface during Feanors rebellion?

Tolkien is clear that there is a shadow over them. This first came about when Morgoth started spreading his lies. If they were wiser like the Vanyar or less proud like the Teleri they would have rejected him. Pride like always was the downfall for the Noldor.

That is the problem, "where ever they tried to go they could not escape the authority of the Valar" isn´t that terrible? It´s like a big jail, or like you would never be able to move away from your parents, cause they force you to stay in a little vilage.

Manwe is the rightful ruler. It takes humility to accept that there are people in the world with a higher rank. Morgoth did not like this and the Noldor followed. Eru made it that way. Your words were the same lies that Morgoth told them.

If thraldom it be you cannot escape it: for Manwe is king of Arda and not Aman only.

I don´t see them being corrupted by Morgoth just because they wanted to leave Aman, they had dreams. It´s true, Arda belonged to the Valar but I see no crime in the need to be a little distanced from them, because you want to make your own experiences, that doesn´t mean that the Eldar who went into exil didn´t love the Valar anymore. Maybe the Valar thought that the Noldor don´t love them anymore, but Galadriel for example, and certaily other Noldor, still revered the Valar very much.

The whole world is under Manwe. As Mandos said you cannot escape his kingship. Tolkien outright states they were corrupted by Morgoth and repeated his lies. They may have loved the Valr, but they broke their laws and had to make their own bed.

Nor did the Valar punish them in any undue way. They refused them help and banned them from Aman. If the Valar had not shown mercy then the Noldor would have been wiped out by Morgoth and quickly returned to Aman to sit in the halls of Mandos. The ones, who remained would become a rustic people and slowly fade away. The Valar were more forgiving than they could have been. In the end it is the Noldor, who are desperate to come back and constantly pine for Aman.