Arwen vs. Galadriel

[Glorthelion]

Arwen, because she is descended from Luthien the fairest elf to ever live. It says somewhere in the Lord of the Rings books that Arwen was the fairest since the time of Luthien.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Glorthelion

Arwen, because she is descended from Luthien the fairest elf to ever live. It says somewhere in the Lord of the Rings books that Arwen was the fairest since the time of Luthien.

Thing is, Galadriel is also said to be the fairest. It's like the competition between Treebeard and Tom B about who is older.

[elbenprincess]

Yes, it is said that Galadriel was the "mightiest and fairest of the remaining elves" and IMHO Arwen was an elf, ntil she decided to become mortal and Gimli thought also that Galadriel was fairer and if Arwen really would look like Luthien, which she didn´t, she is said to walk in the likeness of Luthien, then there should be no doubt left who is fairer.

And beside the fairest thing, Galadriel is much more powerful and awesome and in one league with Feanor.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

Yes, it is said that Galadriel was the "mightiest and fairest of the remaining elves" and IMHO Arwen was an elf, ntil she decided to become mortal and Gimli thought also that Galadriel was fairer and if Arwen really would look like Luthien, which she didn´t, she is said to walk in the likeness of Luthien, then there should be no doubt left who is fairer.

And beside the fairest thing, Galadriel is much more powerful and awesome and in one league with Feanor.

Arwen was never an elf. She was one of the Half-elven like her father and brothers. Arwen does resemble Luthien in both looks and character. I think it can be agreed that most people considered Awen the fairest of the elves.

As for power, I agree Galadriel was more powerful than Arwen, but Arwen was a power in her own right. She does become the queen of all the remaining elves in Middle Earth.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Arwen was never an elf. She was one of the Half-elven like her father and brothers. Arwen does resemble Luthien in both looks and character. I think it can be agreed that most people considered Awen the fairest of the elves.

She's certainly very beautiful, and those who know what they talk about say that she's Luthien reborn (not literally of course). However, she is not as potent as Luthien.

As for power, I agree Galadriel was more powerful than Arwen, but Arwen was a power in her own right. She does become the queen of all the remaining elves in Middle Earth.

Certainly. I think that Arwen has an innate power of her own, albeit a lesser one than that of Luthien and Galadriel. The reason I prefer Galadriel over Arwen is not because one is more beautiful or has greater power. I just like Galadriel's portrayal better - and better than Luthien's too, by th way. To be honest, I like Morwen Eledhwen better than either of them, and, though she's beautiful and powerful in her own right, she's no match for an elf or even half-elf. But I absolutely adore her because of her role and her story.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

She's certainly very beautiful, and those who know what they talk about say that she's Luthien reborn (not literally of course). However, she is not as potent as Luthien.

Yes Luthien was exceptional at everything and stands alone.

Certainly. I think that Arwen has an innate power of her own, albeit a lesser one than that of Luthien and Galadriel. The reason I prefer Galadriel over Arwen is not because one is more beautiful or has greater power. I just like Galadriel's portrayal better - and better than Luthien's too, by th way. To be honest, I like Morwen Eledhwen better than either of them, and, though she's beautiful and powerful in her own right, she's no match for an elf or even half-elf. But I absolutely adore her because of her role and her story.

The thing with Arwen is that we don't know much about her. Considering she was very much like Luthien in personality, I would probably like her more than Galadriel, but not much evidence.

Galadriel, like virtually all the Lords/Ladies of the House of Finwe, seems a bit too power hungry. Even Finrod, who is another one of my favourite characters.


Oddly enough Morwen and Turin are my two favourite characters. Morwen more than Turin, because despite everything that happened to her she remained unbroken.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Oddly enough Morwen and Turin are my two favourite characters. Morwen more than Turin, because despite everything that happened to her she remained unbroken.

Yes!!! I have an ally!!!

I'm a bit obsessed with tragic heroes and just tragic characters in general, and more FA than the later Ages, and especially COH, though The Sil is good also. But I have endless arguments about Hurin's family (can you go more tragic?) with nearly everyone.

Before I get cast out of the Doors of Night to keep Melkor company for going off track...

The thing with Arwen is that we don't know much about her. Considering she was very much like Luthien in personality, I would probably like her more than Galadriel, but not much evidence.

I'm not the biggest fan of Luthien either. As you can tell, I'm more of a fan of tragic endings than love stories.

The way I see Arwen and Luthien differs from yours. I think that Luthien is much more forward and charismatic, more rough, more First Age. Arwen is, for lack ofa better word, tamer. Between them, there are times when I prefer Luthien because of her wild and rebellious touch (but that's not to say that I see her as a willful teenager, I'm just pointing out the difference what I see her as compared to Arwen). Arwen is gentler, quieter, but you can still feel that backbone in her at times. And both ladies are certainly mysterious, though in different ways. Arwen, because we know so little of her, and Luthien, because, as you well put it, she stands alone.

Galadriel, like virtually all the Lords/Ladies of the House of Finwe, seems a bit too power hungry. Even Finrod, who is another one of my favourite characters.

It's one of my favourite bits of Galadriel history when she refuses the Ring in Lorien. She has a bit of that wild First Age streak in her too in The Sil, but in LOTR she has gained more greatness, more inner power, and curbed her ambition.

[elbenprincess]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Arwen was never an elf. She was one of the Half-elven like her father and brothers. Arwen does resemble Luthien in both looks and character. I think it can be agreed that most people considered Awen the fairest of the elves.

As for power, I agree Galadriel was more powerful than Arwen, but Arwen was a power in her own right. She does become the queen of all the remaining elves in Middle Earth.

Arwen is said to walk in the "likeness of Luthien", but not that she resembles her looks. Unless I forgett something, there is no evidence that Arwen is the fairest in ME, I believe Tolkien at least meant Galadriel and her to be equally beautiful.

And for the quote I stated, that Galadriel is the"...and fairest of the remaining elves" IMHO, when Tolkien is takling generally of elves, both Elrond and Arwen are included, otherwise he would probably say "...the elves of Me and the two half elves..." But that would be silly and nitpicking, so he probably just says elves. Elrond because he chose to be counted among the Eldar and Arwen cause she lifed the life of the Eldar and had their youth and until the point she chose to become mortal she was for me an elf maiden. Genetical she is half elfen but culturally elf, until she decided to become a mortal women.

I prefer Luthien because of her wild and rebellious touch

I really don´t see her as wild and rebellios, I mean it wold have been good, but everything what she did was for Beren and not because she was freeminded and felt confined in Doriath.

And for Luthien I´m really not impressed by her even if Tolkien said that she was the greatest of the Eldar, everything what she did was for the sake of her love to beren but not for the greater good. Would Beren not have come to Doriath Luthien wold probably still dance under a tree. Don´t get me wrong her deeds are impressive, but not Luthien, would she have went to Morgoth to free some people, Finrod for example then I would be impressed or if she became active before she met Beren, that for me would be an example of a strong women but she did that cause she couldn´t life without Beren.

That´s why Galadriel for me is greater (even if Tolkien sees it differently), she chose to stay in ME (if we leave out her pride, which was one reason) for the greater good to see Sauron fall and help where she could.

Galadriel, like virtually all the Lords/Ladies of the House of Finwe, seems a bit too power hungry. Even Finrod, who is another one of my favourite characters.

I speak now only for Galadriel but did she leave Aman only for power, I see it rather as need for responsibility and there is nothing wrong with it. She wanted to have her own kindom to have something to do, to accomplish something and not just sit singing under a tree. In the UT she is disribed as being "brilliant in mind and swift in action", so like all hugely intelligent people she was looking for a challenge but she still wanted only good for her people (she never would have suppressed someone (unlike Sauron or Morgoth) and every society needs a leader. So I see nothing negative in Galadriel wanting a realm of her own, as long as she doesn´t force the elves to accept her.

but Arwen was a power in her own right. She does become the queen of all the remaining elves in Middle Earth.

Yes, but that was nothing she accieved in her own, it was because of her marriage to Aragon, if she had fought for it and went through many dangers (like Aragon) then I would be impressed but she was only lucky that Aragon loved her, otherwise we maybe would have never even heard of her.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

I really don´t see her as wild and rebellios, I mean it wold have been good, but everything what she did was for Beren and not because she was freeminded and felt confined in Doriath.

Yes. Once again, I do not see her as a daredevil teenager. But compared to Arwen, who sits at home and weaves a banner, she is quite the daredevil. Also, everyone in The Sil has a bit of wild to them compared to those in LOTR. Perhaps because the whole book is more desperate, or perhaps the whole world is new so you don't have the ancient anything to balance out the new and wild.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

Arwen is said to walk in the "likeness of Luthien", but not that she resembles her looks. Unless I forgett something, there is no evidence that Arwen is the fairest in ME, I believe Tolkien at least meant Galadriel and her to be equally beautiful.

Arwen is called the fairest woman in the world several times in the books.

Arwen is not a 're-incarnation' of Luthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Luthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate.

There can be no doubt that Arwen looked a lot like Luthien.

'"My son," said Gilraen, "your aim is high, even for the descendant of many kings. For this lady is the noblest and fairest that now walks the earth. And it is not fit that mortal should wed with the Elf-kin."


'"At last, Lady Evenstar, fairest in this world, and most beloved, my world is fading. Lo! we have gathered, and we have spent, and now the time of payment draws near."

But now I will put Queen Arwen Evenstar first, and I am ready to do battle on my own part with any who deny me.

And for the quote I stated, that Galadriel is the"...and fairest of the remaining elves" IMHO, when Tolkien is takling generally of elves, both Elrond and Arwen are included, otherwise he would probably say "...the elves of Me and the two half elves..." But that would be silly and nitpicking, so he probably just says elves. Elrond because he chose to be counted among the Eldar and Arwen cause she lifed the life of the Eldar and had their youth and until the point she chose to become mortal she was for me an elf maiden. Genetical she is half elfen but culturally elf, until she decided to become a mortal women.

It is very simple. Arwen and Elrond were immortal Half-Elven. Again Tolkien clarifies this clearly.

The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and fate they shall belong: choose once and for all. Hence the grief at the parting of Elrond and Arwen."-Letter 154


"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights-Letter 345

Arwen and Elrond were never elves. Nothing more can be said about it.

I speak now only for Galadriel but did she leave Aman only for power, I see it rather as need for responsibility and there is nothing wrong with it. She wanted to have her own kindom to have something to do, to accomplish something and not just sit singing under a tree. In the UT she is disribed as being "brilliant in mind and swift in action", so like all hugely intelligent people she was looking for a challenge but she still wanted only good for her people (she never would have suppressed someone (unlike Sauron or Morgoth) and every society needs a leader. So I see nothing negative in Galadriel wanting a realm of her own, as long as she doesn´t force the elves to accept her.

Yet power was still one of the main reasons she left and was consequently banned from Aman. Her father was wise and brilliant, but had more wisdom.

What is wrong desiring a peaceful life? The Vanyar and the remaining Noldor were the ones who went and overthrew Morgoth. They were not scared, but wise enough to listen to the council of the Valar and not defy them.

Yes, but that was nothing she accieved in her own, it was because of her marriage to Aragon, if she had fought for it and went through many dangers (like Aragon) then I would be impressed but she was only lucky that Aragon loved her, otherwise we maybe would have never even heard of her.

Arwen is Queen of Elves by her right and plays a huge part in running Aragorn's kingdom. Not only that, she was keeping watch on him from Rivendell, arranged for him to receive the Elessar and made his kingly banner.

Arwen remained in Rivendell, and when Aragorn was abroad, from afar she watched over him in thought; and in hope she made for him a great and kingly standard, such as only one might display who claimed the lordship of the Númenoreans and the inheritance of Elendil.

[elbenprincess]

'"My son," said Gilraen, "your aim is high, even for the descendant of many kings. For this lady is the noblest and fairest that now walks the earth. And it is not fit that mortal should wed with the Elf-kin."


'"At last, Lady Evenstar, fairest in this world, and most beloved, my world is fading. Lo! we have gathered, and we have spent, and now the time of payment draws near."

This is not Tolkiens view, that´s rather seen through the eyes of Gilraen and Aragon. Gilraen probably never meat Galadriel and therefore can not even judge that and Aragon is biased cause he is talking about his own wife, furthermore Galadriel wast in ME anymore when he said that.

The quote I provided was Tolkiens general view and not filtered through his characters.

For this lady is the noblest

That is debatable too, I would say Galadriel is more noble, being the daugther of a king (Finarfin), Granddaughter of a king (Olwe) and great niece of two kings (Ingwe and Elwe, if we assume that Elwe held kingship in Aman) Arwen is much more removed. But that´s just me. Arwen has of course the plus being decended from Melian, but for me that doesn´t make her necessarily more noble. Is just Gilraen not knowing better.

I´s like Sam saying for example that Rosie is the fairest in ME, that wold e Sams opinion, bt not neccessarily Tolkiens, or Galadriel saying that Celeborn is the wisest elf in ME, that is her opinion but probably not Tolkiens, cause he once said that abot Cirdan.

The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and fate they shall belong: choose once and for all. Hence the grief at the parting of Elrond and Arwen."-Letter 154


"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights-Letter 345

I´m very much aware that Tolkien said that Arwen isn´t an elf but half-elven, I was just trying to explain why I think that both are included in that statement, when Tolkien is talking in general of the third age eldar

Galadriel was the mightiest and fairest of the remaining elves

They are several thousand years old and living among elves. They are more elven than mortal. I think it´s quite obvious, Arwen is even listened as one of the Eldar.

There were three unions of the Eldar and the Edain: Luthien and Beren; Idril and Tuor; Arwen and Aragorn"

She was genetically not an elf, but still included when generally speaking of them, until she wedded Aragon. With Elrond it´s even more explizcit, even if he´s half-elven, since "he chose to be counted among the Eldar"

I don´t know how to explain, but isn´t she seen as an elf (I´m not saying the she IS full elven) until she decided to become mortal? After her decision she stays half elven too, but then is no longer seen as an elf but a mortal women.

Yet power was still one of the main reasons she left and was consequently banned from Aman. Her father was wise and brilliant, but had more wisdom.

What is wrong desiring a peaceful life? The Vanyar and the remaining Noldor were the ones who went and overthrew Morgoth. They were not scared, but wise enough to listen to the council of the Valar and not defy them

I´m not saying that Finarfin wasn´t wise returning to Valinor or that the other elves were cowards, it´s just that every person has other goals in life (for Galadriel being influential or powerful) and not everyone is content in just singing and writing poetry, but I wouldn´t say that Galadriel was unwise or stupid for going to ME, she had her purpose, without her things may have ended worse.

Galadriel and Feanor are the only elves described as being brilliant, I don´t think that there a dumb elves anyway, but they are seemingly extraordinary in that area, that´s the reason they weren´t content in living in Aman anymore, Galadriel even more than Feanor is seems.
I see nothing bad in her departure, I see a curious, knowlege- (slightly power) hungry "young" women who is looking for responsibility and something important to do. Even if she was looking for power, I don´t understand why some people see that in negative light. It´s the method how someone craves for power which is cruicial and Galadriel wanted always the best for ME, that sets her apart from the likes of Morgoth, Sauron or Saruman. You can have the need for being powerful and still be a good person if you know when you have to stop. Galadriels "stop" was when she refused the ring.

Arwen is Queen of Elves by her right and plays a huge part in running Aragorn's kingdom. Not only that, she was keeping watch on him from Rivendell, arranged for him to receive the Elessar and made his kingly banner.

I don´t understand, she was not in line for succession, if we go with the version that Gilgalads father was Orodreth (sp?) then the next would be Galadriel, then Celebrian, then first the twins. So Arwen was only queen because she married Aragon, had she not married him, she wouldn´t be the queen of the elves.