Arwen vs. Galadriel

[elbenprincess]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Arwen was never an elf. She was one of the Half-elven like her father and brothers. Arwen does resemble Luthien in both looks and character. I think it can be agreed that most people considered Awen the fairest of the elves.

As for power, I agree Galadriel was more powerful than Arwen, but Arwen was a power in her own right. She does become the queen of all the remaining elves in Middle Earth.

Arwen is said to walk in the "likeness of Luthien", but not that she resembles her looks. Unless I forgett something, there is no evidence that Arwen is the fairest in ME, I believe Tolkien at least meant Galadriel and her to be equally beautiful.

And for the quote I stated, that Galadriel is the"...and fairest of the remaining elves" IMHO, when Tolkien is takling generally of elves, both Elrond and Arwen are included, otherwise he would probably say "...the elves of Me and the two half elves..." But that would be silly and nitpicking, so he probably just says elves. Elrond because he chose to be counted among the Eldar and Arwen cause she lifed the life of the Eldar and had their youth and until the point she chose to become mortal she was for me an elf maiden. Genetical she is half elfen but culturally elf, until she decided to become a mortal women.

I prefer Luthien because of her wild and rebellious touch

I really don´t see her as wild and rebellios, I mean it wold have been good, but everything what she did was for Beren and not because she was freeminded and felt confined in Doriath.

And for Luthien I´m really not impressed by her even if Tolkien said that she was the greatest of the Eldar, everything what she did was for the sake of her love to beren but not for the greater good. Would Beren not have come to Doriath Luthien wold probably still dance under a tree. Don´t get me wrong her deeds are impressive, but not Luthien, would she have went to Morgoth to free some people, Finrod for example then I would be impressed or if she became active before she met Beren, that for me would be an example of a strong women but she did that cause she couldn´t life without Beren.

That´s why Galadriel for me is greater (even if Tolkien sees it differently), she chose to stay in ME (if we leave out her pride, which was one reason) for the greater good to see Sauron fall and help where she could.

Galadriel, like virtually all the Lords/Ladies of the House of Finwe, seems a bit too power hungry. Even Finrod, who is another one of my favourite characters.

I speak now only for Galadriel but did she leave Aman only for power, I see it rather as need for responsibility and there is nothing wrong with it. She wanted to have her own kindom to have something to do, to accomplish something and not just sit singing under a tree. In the UT she is disribed as being "brilliant in mind and swift in action", so like all hugely intelligent people she was looking for a challenge but she still wanted only good for her people (she never would have suppressed someone (unlike Sauron or Morgoth) and every society needs a leader. So I see nothing negative in Galadriel wanting a realm of her own, as long as she doesn´t force the elves to accept her.

but Arwen was a power in her own right. She does become the queen of all the remaining elves in Middle Earth.

Yes, but that was nothing she accieved in her own, it was because of her marriage to Aragon, if she had fought for it and went through many dangers (like Aragon) then I would be impressed but she was only lucky that Aragon loved her, otherwise we maybe would have never even heard of her.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

I really don´t see her as wild and rebellios, I mean it wold have been good, but everything what she did was for Beren and not because she was freeminded and felt confined in Doriath.

Yes. Once again, I do not see her as a daredevil teenager. But compared to Arwen, who sits at home and weaves a banner, she is quite the daredevil. Also, everyone in The Sil has a bit of wild to them compared to those in LOTR. Perhaps because the whole book is more desperate, or perhaps the whole world is new so you don't have the ancient anything to balance out the new and wild.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

Arwen is said to walk in the "likeness of Luthien", but not that she resembles her looks. Unless I forgett something, there is no evidence that Arwen is the fairest in ME, I believe Tolkien at least meant Galadriel and her to be equally beautiful.

Arwen is called the fairest woman in the world several times in the books.

Arwen is not a 're-incarnation' of Luthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Luthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate.

There can be no doubt that Arwen looked a lot like Luthien.

'"My son," said Gilraen, "your aim is high, even for the descendant of many kings. For this lady is the noblest and fairest that now walks the earth. And it is not fit that mortal should wed with the Elf-kin."


'"At last, Lady Evenstar, fairest in this world, and most beloved, my world is fading. Lo! we have gathered, and we have spent, and now the time of payment draws near."

But now I will put Queen Arwen Evenstar first, and I am ready to do battle on my own part with any who deny me.

And for the quote I stated, that Galadriel is the"...and fairest of the remaining elves" IMHO, when Tolkien is takling generally of elves, both Elrond and Arwen are included, otherwise he would probably say "...the elves of Me and the two half elves..." But that would be silly and nitpicking, so he probably just says elves. Elrond because he chose to be counted among the Eldar and Arwen cause she lifed the life of the Eldar and had their youth and until the point she chose to become mortal she was for me an elf maiden. Genetical she is half elfen but culturally elf, until she decided to become a mortal women.

It is very simple. Arwen and Elrond were immortal Half-Elven. Again Tolkien clarifies this clearly.

The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and fate they shall belong: choose once and for all. Hence the grief at the parting of Elrond and Arwen."-Letter 154


"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights-Letter 345

Arwen and Elrond were never elves. Nothing more can be said about it.

I speak now only for Galadriel but did she leave Aman only for power, I see it rather as need for responsibility and there is nothing wrong with it. She wanted to have her own kindom to have something to do, to accomplish something and not just sit singing under a tree. In the UT she is disribed as being "brilliant in mind and swift in action", so like all hugely intelligent people she was looking for a challenge but she still wanted only good for her people (she never would have suppressed someone (unlike Sauron or Morgoth) and every society needs a leader. So I see nothing negative in Galadriel wanting a realm of her own, as long as she doesn´t force the elves to accept her.

Yet power was still one of the main reasons she left and was consequently banned from Aman. Her father was wise and brilliant, but had more wisdom.

What is wrong desiring a peaceful life? The Vanyar and the remaining Noldor were the ones who went and overthrew Morgoth. They were not scared, but wise enough to listen to the council of the Valar and not defy them.

Yes, but that was nothing she accieved in her own, it was because of her marriage to Aragon, if she had fought for it and went through many dangers (like Aragon) then I would be impressed but she was only lucky that Aragon loved her, otherwise we maybe would have never even heard of her.

Arwen is Queen of Elves by her right and plays a huge part in running Aragorn's kingdom. Not only that, she was keeping watch on him from Rivendell, arranged for him to receive the Elessar and made his kingly banner.

Arwen remained in Rivendell, and when Aragorn was abroad, from afar she watched over him in thought; and in hope she made for him a great and kingly standard, such as only one might display who claimed the lordship of the Númenoreans and the inheritance of Elendil.

[elbenprincess]

'"My son," said Gilraen, "your aim is high, even for the descendant of many kings. For this lady is the noblest and fairest that now walks the earth. And it is not fit that mortal should wed with the Elf-kin."


'"At last, Lady Evenstar, fairest in this world, and most beloved, my world is fading. Lo! we have gathered, and we have spent, and now the time of payment draws near."

This is not Tolkiens view, that´s rather seen through the eyes of Gilraen and Aragon. Gilraen probably never meat Galadriel and therefore can not even judge that and Aragon is biased cause he is talking about his own wife, furthermore Galadriel wast in ME anymore when he said that.

The quote I provided was Tolkiens general view and not filtered through his characters.

For this lady is the noblest

That is debatable too, I would say Galadriel is more noble, being the daugther of a king (Finarfin), Granddaughter of a king (Olwe) and great niece of two kings (Ingwe and Elwe, if we assume that Elwe held kingship in Aman) Arwen is much more removed. But that´s just me. Arwen has of course the plus being decended from Melian, but for me that doesn´t make her necessarily more noble. Is just Gilraen not knowing better.

I´s like Sam saying for example that Rosie is the fairest in ME, that wold e Sams opinion, bt not neccessarily Tolkiens, or Galadriel saying that Celeborn is the wisest elf in ME, that is her opinion but probably not Tolkiens, cause he once said that abot Cirdan.

The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and fate they shall belong: choose once and for all. Hence the grief at the parting of Elrond and Arwen."-Letter 154


"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights-Letter 345

I´m very much aware that Tolkien said that Arwen isn´t an elf but half-elven, I was just trying to explain why I think that both are included in that statement, when Tolkien is talking in general of the third age eldar

Galadriel was the mightiest and fairest of the remaining elves

They are several thousand years old and living among elves. They are more elven than mortal. I think it´s quite obvious, Arwen is even listened as one of the Eldar.

There were three unions of the Eldar and the Edain: Luthien and Beren; Idril and Tuor; Arwen and Aragorn"

She was genetically not an elf, but still included when generally speaking of them, until she wedded Aragon. With Elrond it´s even more explizcit, even if he´s half-elven, since "he chose to be counted among the Eldar"

I don´t know how to explain, but isn´t she seen as an elf (I´m not saying the she IS full elven) until she decided to become mortal? After her decision she stays half elven too, but then is no longer seen as an elf but a mortal women.

Yet power was still one of the main reasons she left and was consequently banned from Aman. Her father was wise and brilliant, but had more wisdom.

What is wrong desiring a peaceful life? The Vanyar and the remaining Noldor were the ones who went and overthrew Morgoth. They were not scared, but wise enough to listen to the council of the Valar and not defy them

I´m not saying that Finarfin wasn´t wise returning to Valinor or that the other elves were cowards, it´s just that every person has other goals in life (for Galadriel being influential or powerful) and not everyone is content in just singing and writing poetry, but I wouldn´t say that Galadriel was unwise or stupid for going to ME, she had her purpose, without her things may have ended worse.

Galadriel and Feanor are the only elves described as being brilliant, I don´t think that there a dumb elves anyway, but they are seemingly extraordinary in that area, that´s the reason they weren´t content in living in Aman anymore, Galadriel even more than Feanor is seems.
I see nothing bad in her departure, I see a curious, knowlege- (slightly power) hungry "young" women who is looking for responsibility and something important to do. Even if she was looking for power, I don´t understand why some people see that in negative light. It´s the method how someone craves for power which is cruicial and Galadriel wanted always the best for ME, that sets her apart from the likes of Morgoth, Sauron or Saruman. You can have the need for being powerful and still be a good person if you know when you have to stop. Galadriels "stop" was when she refused the ring.

Arwen is Queen of Elves by her right and plays a huge part in running Aragorn's kingdom. Not only that, she was keeping watch on him from Rivendell, arranged for him to receive the Elessar and made his kingly banner.

I don´t understand, she was not in line for succession, if we go with the version that Gilgalads father was Orodreth (sp?) then the next would be Galadriel, then Celebrian, then first the twins. So Arwen was only queen because she married Aragon, had she not married him, she wouldn´t be the queen of the elves.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

This is not Tolkiens view, that´s rather seen through the eyes of Gilraen and Aragon. Gilraen probably never meat Galadriel and therefore can not even judge that and Aragon is biased cause he is talking about his own wife, furthermore Galadriel wast in ME anymore when he aid that.

The quote I provided was Tolkiens general view and not filtered through his characters.

What about Eomer's quote? Besides I have explained and given you lots of information where Tolkien shows the Half-Elven are not included among the Elves.

That is debatable too, I would say Galadriel is more noble, being the daugther of a king (Finarfin), Granddaughter of a king (Olwe) and great niece of two kings (Ingwe and Elwe, if we assume that Elwe held kingship in Aman) Arwen is much more removed. But that´s just me. Arwen has of course the plus being decended from Melian, but for me that doesn´t make her necessarily more noble. Is just Gilraen not knowing better.

Arwen is a descendant of both Earendil and Luthien. The two most beloved, most powerful and most respected out of the Children of Illuvatar. That trumps everything.

I´s like Sam saying for example that Rosie is the fairest in ME, that wold e Sams opinion, bt not neccessarily Tolkiens, or Galadriel saying that Celeborn is the wisest elf in ME, that is her opinion but probably not Tolkiens, cause he once said that abot Cirdan.

Except more than one character says it and they have no reason to be biased. She is also compared to Luthien in looks, the fairest out of all the Children of Illuvatar.

I´m very much aware that Tolkien said that Arwen isn´t an elf but half-elven, I was just trying to explain why I think that both are included in that statement, when Tolkien is talking in general of the third age eldar They are several thousand years old and living among elves. They are more elven than mortal. I think it´s quite obvious, Arwen is even listened as one of the Eldar.

Well there are many reasons why this is not the case.
1. Elrond is called a Elf friend.
"The Master of the house was an elf-friend - one of those people whose fathers came into the strange stories before History, the wars of the evil goblins and the elves and the first men of the North.

[Elrond] was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer.

"‘And have you marked the brethren Elladan and Elrohir? Less sombre is their gear than the others', and they are fair and gallant as Elf-lords; and that is not to be wondered at in the sons of Elrond of Rivendell.'"

She was genetically not an elf, but still included when generally speaking of them, until she wedded Aragon. With Elrond it´s even more explizcit, even if he´s half-elven, since "he chose to be counted among the Eldar"

No quite the opposite, Tolkien in virtually every panel retains the distinction between Elrond/Elrond's children and true Elves. He is only LIKE or AS an elf lord.

I´m not saying that Finarfin wasn´t wise returning to Valinor or that the other elves were cowards, it´s just that every person has other goals in life (for Galadriel being influential or powerful) and not everyone is content in just singing and writing poetry, but I wouldn´t say that Galadriel was unwise or stupid for going to ME, she had her purpose, without her things may have ended worse.

Galadriel and Feanor are the only elves described as being brilliant, I don´t think that there a dumb elves anyway, but they are seemingly extraordinary in that area, that´s the reason they weren´t content in living in Aman anymore, Galadriel even more than Feanor is seems.
I see nothing bad in her departure, I see a curious, knowlege- (slightly power) hungry "young" women who is looking for responsibility and something important to do. Even if she was looking for power, I don´t understand why some people see that in negative light. It´s the method how someone craves for power which is cruicial and Galadriel wanted always the best for ME, that sets her apart from the likes of Morgoth, Sauron or Saruman. You can have the need for being powerful and still be a good person if you know when you have to stop. Galadriels "stop" was when she refused the ring.

Knowing when to stop is returning when the Valar place a curse on your errand. Finarfin was wise and knew when to stop and that was when the Valar cursed them. This is why Finarfin is the ONLY Noldor Prince/Lady to not inherit the weakness of pride the others did including Finrod and Galadriel.

If she acted perfectly then she would not have received the ban, that all the Noldor had.

In him(Feanor) she perceived a darkness that she hated and feared, though she did not perceive that the shadow of the same evil had fallen upon the minds of all the Noldor and upon her own.

I don´t understand, she was not in line for succession, if we go with the version that Gilgalads father was Orodreth (sp?) then the next would be Galadriel, then Celebrian, then first the twins. So Arwen was only queen because she married Aragon, had she not married him, she wouldn´t be the queen of the elves.

No for whatever reason it seems the Noldor had a form of Salic Succession. The throne was only passed to males through a male line. So with the death of Gil-galad not only was there a lack of elves to have a High-King, but there was nobody with a right to the throne anyway.

However, Arwen has right to claim the Queenship through Thingol. That apart the elves did not just accept leaders, because of a birth right. They rejected Finrod, Feanor and Galadriel herself even though they were the rightful rulers by birth. Arwen therefore must have displayed qualities for the elves to except her rule.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

I don´t understand, she was not in line for succession, if we go with the version that Gilgalads father was Orodreth (sp?) then the next would be Galadriel, then Celebrian, then first the twins. So Arwen was only queen because she married Aragon, had she not married him, she wouldn´t be the queen of the elves.

You talk only of political power. I think that it is only surface-deep and is based on status, not on the person. I was talking abut innate power, of which even Aragorn has lots - and Arwen probably has just as much (though of a different kind/"direction") at least.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Arwen is a descendant of both Earendil and Luthien. The two most beloved, most powerful and most respected out of the Children of Illuvatar. That trumps everything.

According to me it doesn't. Being a descendant does not necessarily trump a separate quality. It's comparing apples to oranges - being less powerful than the other's ancestors, but in your own right, or not being as special by yourself but having inherited something due to your ancestry.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

What is wrong desiring a peaceful life? The Vanyar and the remaining Noldor were the ones who went and overthrew Morgoth. They were not scared, but wise enough to listen to the council of the Valar and not defy them.

There is a difference between doing nothing peacefully and doing something peacefully. The only problem is that the something turned quite bloody, but not by Galadriel's will.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

If she acted perfectly then she would not have received the ban, that all the Noldor had.

And if everyone acted perfectly we would not have a story. *sigh* But that's beside the point. Thing is, we see so few of Arwen's actions that we can't really judge her. Galadriel does things imperfectly. Arwen doesn't do much at all. Galadriel learns wisdom and humility. Arwen becomes mortal. You decide which is the apple and which is the orange.

[cellurdur]

IMHO Galadriel was right when she refused the pardon, because for what should she need to be forgiven? For leaving Aman?
The Valar were wrong.

No the Valar were right. The Valar cursed the Noldor for leaving, because of their actions. The right thing to do would be go and ask pardon. Ultimately the Valar would have sent a force. Finarfin acted in the correct manner and you will note he was the one that gained everything. He gained the High Kingship of all the Noldor, he was the one who led the Noldor to victory. If his children and relatives had listened then things would have turned out much better.

"Elrond's character had yet to be fully developed when The Hobbit was first published. Rateliff's The History of The Hobbit has a detailed section on Elrond's character, as Rateliff notes:

...and the very presense of Elrond himself, who is certainly not described as an elf (at the end of the chapter Elrond, the hobbit, the wizard, and the dwarves go outside to 'see the elves' dance and sing) and seems to not have been conceived of as an immortal or even particularly long lived at this point, - The History of The Hobbit: Mr. Baggins; Ch III, Rivendell.

And in The Annotated, in A Short Rest: note 9, Anderson refers to a 1964 letter where Tolkien called Elrond's naming a "fortunate accident":

Tolkien wrote to Christopher Bretherton in a letter of July 16, 1964, "The Passage in Ch. 3 relating him to the Half-elven of the mythology was a fortunate accident, due to the difficulty of constantly inventing good names for new characters. I gave him the name Elrond casually, but as this came from the mythology...I made him half-elven."

"Tolkien needed a name for this character in The Hobbit who was an "elf-friend" and the master of Rivendell, and it appears he casually plucked the name Elrond. This would become a fortunate accident, because Tolkien realized Elrond was already a character in his mythology, and already the "half-mortal and half-elfin" child of Earendel and Elwing ("Sketch of the Mythology"). I'm not sure when Elrond's full character gets fleshed out, but it would not be anytime before LOTR."

That all is copied from someone who wrote that in another forum.

Well, I wouldn´t read too much into it.
Elrond "chose to be counted among the Eldar" and therefore is included in that quote despite being half elven, with Arwen it´s a little more difficult, but alone the fact that Tolkien said that her and Aragons wedding was the third between the Eldar and Edain is prove enough for me.
They are called called half - elven, not half-man, so it is reasonable if they would be included in such a general statement.

What does that have to do with anything? Tolkien comments on how he was fortunate he used Elrond's name, but it does not change his status as one of the Half-Elven. The Half-elven are their own separate group. I have given several quotes distinguishing Elrond from other Elf-lords and his children too. None of the Half-Elven were elves. There is only one slip up when he talks about the marriages of the Eldar and the Edain and he quickly corrects this one letter. Through out the Lengendarium he is consistent in showing the difference.

In fact his quote about Elrond having the best chance out of anyone except the Maia suggest Elrond has a greater innate power.

Yes, Eomer thought Arwen was fairer, Gimli Galadriel, so now, what was Tolkiens opinion on that? Maybe he wasn´t sure. Whose opinion has more weight?

Except we have Aragorn's, Gilraen's and the references to Arwen's similarity to Luthien.

When did they rejected Finrod? He was king and would have stayed king, if he would not have helped Beren, Feanor nobody liked and Galadriel would have been Queen after Gil Galad, if they would have let a women rule, but at that time the Noldor left ME.

They rejected Finrod when Curufin and Celegorm convinced them to abandon the king. The elves of Eregion by one story rejected Galadriel in favour of Celebrimbor.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

According to me it doesn't. Being a descendant does not necessarily trump a separate quality. It's comparing apples to oranges - being less powerful than the other's ancestors, but in your own right, or not being as special by yourself but having inherited something due to your ancestry.

In Tolkien, nobility is not just down to actions, but to descent as well. Part of the reason Arwen was so great was her descent. The rest was in her actions.

There is a difference between doing nothing peacefully and doing something peacefully. The only problem is that the something turned quite bloody, but not by Galadriel's will.

The Vanyar and the remaining Noldor DID do something. They were the ones who won the war. They regained the Silmarils. Being wise and not too hasty is a virtue.

And if everyone acted perfectly we would not have a story. *sigh* But that's beside the point. Thing is, we see so few of Arwen's actions that we can't really judge her. Galadriel does things imperfectly. Arwen doesn't do much at all. Galadriel learns wisdom and humility. Arwen becomes mortal. You decide which is the apple and which is the orange.

That is true, but it does not matter when judging characters. Tolkien himself says that people have to fall, to give us the story, but falling is a failure.

I agree we do not really know enough about Arwen to judge, but we only know that she was very similar to Luthien.

I don't get your last point? How is becoming mortal anything to do with character? Earendil would have happily become a mortal as would many elves like Galadriel's own brother Aegnor.

All the Noldor Princes/Ladies were quite deeply flawed and this is why Elrond distances himself from them and would rather be Thingol's heir.

[elbenprincess]

Oh yes, Thingol was of course not flawed

That Elrond distances himself from the Noldor because of their past, makes me almost not liking him (almost!) If it wasn´t for the Noldor leaving Aman despite the Valar cammanding them to stay, there would be no Elrond. One could ask for a little more respect regarding his Noldorin ancestors.

I wouldn´t call them flawed (except Feanor and his sons), I would call them people with character.

Part of the reason Arwen was so great was her descent

Oh please really, where was Arwen "so great", she just happens to marry the King of Arnor and Gondor. Origianlly he would even have married Eowyn.

In fact his quote about Elrond having the best chance out of anyone except the Maia suggest Elrond has a greater innate power.

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.
Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).

It says "IF" Galadriel could, Elrond could too, but that is not the case.

Here's that next line...

But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power.

It says Galadriel thought she could, but that was because of one of the Ring's key powers - deception. Galadriel was deceived into thinking that she could use the Ring for herself, so was Elrond, maybe even to a greater degree.

That doesn´t make Elrond more powerful than Galadriel, actually i think it´s very unlikely that Elrond has more innate power, when you have in mind what Tolkien has written about her in comparision to Feanor.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

In Tolkien, nobility is not just down to actions, but to descent as well. Part of the reason Arwen was so great was her descent. The rest was in her actions.

I do not disagree. Both have great ancestors, but Arwen has the greater ones. Both do great deeds, but Galadriel does the greater ones. How do you balance it out? You can't. It's apples and oranges.

The Vanyar and the remaining Noldor DID do something. They were the ones who won the war. They regained the Silmarils. Being wise and not too hasty is a virtue.

That's beside the point. They won the war - after an Age of doing... what? Sitting at home, carving jewels, watching the stars... Life in Valinor is good when you are weary and seek rest. But what about when you are still young, vigorous, ambitious? When you don't want to just take and enjoy what the Valar have provided, but want to build yourself? Enjoyment wears off together with appreciation.

That is true, but it does not matter when judging characters. Tolkien himself says that people have to fall, to give us the story, but falling is a failure.

Alright. Sure. It's failure. But it makes a character more interesting to read about. I love Galadriel (who has fallen and risen again) as a character more than I do Arwen, who has neither fallen nor risen. She not only does little in the physical sense, but her character is pretty stagnant, other than perhaps her decision to become mortal.

And likewise, I love Morwen more than both of them put together, even though her fall was the hardest and grandest - perhaps I love her more because her fall was the worst.

I don't get your last point? How is becoming mortal anything to do with character? Earendil would have happily become a mortal as would many elves like Galadriel's own brother Aegnor.

We don't know much of Arwen's character. We need deeds to judge character. Arwen does very few things that are her choice (I mean, she can be beautiful, but it's not really her credit); she visits Lorien. She weaves a banner. There's the look she gave Frodo in Rivendell that he always remembered afterwards, as well as giving him the necklace. And she became mortal. Coincidence or not, but many of her deeds originate in this choice. It's the most important thing to me in judging her character.

All the Noldor Princes/Ladies were quite deeply flawed and this is why Elrond distances himself from them and would rather be Thingol's heir.

Elrond distances himself from the Noldor and would rather be Thingol's heir? Where did you get this from? I can't seem to recall any such, but I may have forgotten this bit since my last read.

[elbenprincess]

Knowing when to stop is returning when the Valar place a curse on your errand. Finarfin was wise and knew when to stop and that was when the Valar cursed them. This is why Finarfin is the ONLY Noldor Prince/Lady to not inherit the weakness of pride the others did including Finrod and Galadriel.

If she acted perfectly then she would not have received the ban, that all the Noldor had

I anyway don´t understand why they were banned, the Valar said that they are free and could leave if they want but they still banned them, even those who were not guilty in the kinslaying. Galadriel had the right to go, she was no prisinor. Pride is not always a weakness, it saves ones self-respect. If you are convinced that what you do is the right thing, then you should fight for it and maybe even refuse forgiveness, if that "pardon" includes that you have to admit you were wrong. Never should anyone act against his or her believes.

IMHO Galadriel was right when she refused the pardon, because for what should she need to be forgiven? For leaving Aman?
The Valar were wrong.

"The Master of the house was an elf-friend - one of those people whose fathers came into the strange stories before History, the wars of the evil goblins and the elves and the first men of the North.

"Elrond's character had yet to be fully developed when The Hobbit was first published. Rateliff's The History of The Hobbit has a detailed section on Elrond's character, as Rateliff notes:

...and the very presense of Elrond himself, who is certainly not described as an elf (at the end of the chapter Elrond, the hobbit, the wizard, and the dwarves go outside to 'see the elves' dance and sing) and seems to not have been conceived of as an immortal or even particularly long lived at this point, - The History of The Hobbit: Mr. Baggins; Ch III, Rivendell.

And in The Annotated, in A Short Rest: note 9, Anderson refers to a 1964 letter where Tolkien called Elrond's naming a "fortunate accident":

Tolkien wrote to Christopher Bretherton in a letter of July 16, 1964, "The Passage in Ch. 3 relating him to the Half-elven of the mythology was a fortunate accident, due to the difficulty of constantly inventing good names for new characters. I gave him the name Elrond casually, but as this came from the mythology...I made him half-elven."

"Tolkien needed a name for this character in The Hobbit who was an "elf-friend" and the master of Rivendell, and it appears he casually plucked the name Elrond. This would become a fortunate accident, because Tolkien realized Elrond was already a character in his mythology, and already the "half-mortal and half-elfin" child of Earendel and Elwing ("Sketch of the Mythology"). I'm not sure when Elrond's full character gets fleshed out, but it would not be anytime before LOTR."

That all is copied from someone who wrote that in another forum.

Well, I wouldn´t read too much into it.
Elrond "chose to be counted among the Eldar" and therefore is included in that quote despite being half elven, with Arwen it´s a little more difficult, but alone the fact that Tolkien said that her and Aragons wedding was the third between the Eldar and Edain is prove enough for me.
They are called called half - elven, not half-man, so it is reasonable if they would be included in such a general statement.

What about Eomer's quote?

Yes, Eomer thought Arwen was fairer, Gimli Galadriel, so now, what was Tolkiens opinion on that? Maybe he wasn´t sure. Whose opinion has more weight?

They rejected Finrod, Feanor and Galadriel

When did they rejected Finrod? He was king and would have stayed king, if he would not have helped Beren, Feanor nobody liked and Galadriel would have been Queen after Gil Galad, if they would have let a women rule, but at that time the Noldor left ME.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

When did they rejected Finrod? He was king and would have stayed king, if he would not have helped Beren, Feanor nobody liked and Galadriel would have been Queen after Gil Galad, if they would have let a women rule, but at that time the Noldor left ME.

I would agree. Yes, only men were Kings, until Numenor changed that. However, when there are no more men left of the line, who else to follow? Moreover, Galadriel is such a figure that people would follow her regardless of her gender. She has charisma. Lots of it. And even in LOTR, whenever she appears with Celeborn, she demonstrates that he is great, and never tries to show otherwise. Yet you get the feeling all the time that despite that she is much greater than him. Even the people who follow her rule defer to her before Celeborn.