Bilbo´s treachery

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

One could argue that Bilbo has already taken and disposed of his fourteenth share, in the shape of the Arkenstone; but that he still felt he was owed something for dealing with the 'two messes'.

The main issue with that interpretation is that Bilbo didn't want to take any of the treasure; he apparently just settled for the "two small chests, one filled with silver, and the other with gold" out of politeness to Dáin. I do wonder though if his failure to include any jewels there might not have been an after-affect of his dealings with the Arkenstone.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The main issue with that interpretation is that Bilbo didn't want to take any of the treasure; he apparently just settled for the "two small chests, one filled with silver, and the other with gold" out of politeness to Dáin. I do wonder though if his failure to include any jewels there might not have been an after-affect of his dealings with the Arkenstone.

I think all of us can agree that Bilbo doesn't need any of the treasure. His father was from a rich family, who married into a richer one, and who built Bag End with the money. Even taking into account that Bilbo is an only child, unmarried and childless, he still has enough money not to work and to still keep up Bag End.

The failure to include any jewels may be, as you suggest, a reference to Thorin originally agreeing that the Arkenstone would be exchanged for a fourteenth share of the treasure, but in silver and gold, setting aside the gems.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

The only thing that matters to Bilbo is trying to find a way to prevent all-out war and he's willing to betray his friends and give up all hope of treasure if that means he can stop the killing. He's the greatest hero of them all, as he is the only one who thinks it better to give the treasure away and not fight instead of killing for gold.

And I would remind you that the last thing Thorin does before he dies is to beg Bilbo's forgiveness: if he no longer sees what Bilbo has done in a bad way, why on earth should anybody else?

[Puddleglum]

Personally, I think too much is made of the word "betray". Certainly "Thorin" felt his interests had been betrayed, but I think Bilbo was both motivated by and acting in favor of the "best" interests of both Thorin and his friends - whether they felt so at the time or not.

Firstly, the end result of Bilbo's plan was intended to be (and actually worked out to be) that Thorin would get the Arkenstone he craved. It was passed to Bard as a negotiating tool, not for Bard to keep for his own - and Bard obviously saw it that way as well.

Second, as Fordim points out, Bilbo believed it was in the interests of the Dwarves to be friends with their neighbors and that their (esp Thorin's) insistence on standing for ALL their RIGHTS regardless of the consequences was damaging to THEM in the long run (or, even, in the short run).

• Think, for instance, of how Tolkien portrayed Feanor's (and his sons) "dwarvish" insistence that the Silmaril was "THEIRs" and theirs alone. They certainly had a legal case to stand on, but the "I want mine and will destroy myself to get it" attitude was portrayed as wrong and leading to destruction.
• It goes with the belief (right, I think) that "Pride" is more damaging than "loss".
• Reminds me of an old rhyme ---

  "Here lie the bones of Ezra McCray,
  who died defending his right-of-way.
  He was Right, dead Right, as he sped along,
  But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.

Bilbo, while hired to do a job, was neither a subject of Thorin, nor his servant. Rather he was a friend who felt it was an act of friendship to save Thorin, even from himself. And even at the risk of being disowned or even killed.

As Gandalf put it "Well done!, Mr. Baggins!"

[MCRmyGirl4eva]

Looking at the point of what Thranduil had done for Bilbo:

Specifically? Nothing was stated. However, Bilbo had had plenty of time to observe him while hiding in his home. He was there long enough to pick up Elvish. Therefore, perhaps he had seen Thranduil's gentler side, especially if he had seen him interacting with Legolas, and so felt guilty about sneaking around and stealing food. Also, it's hinted that he had always had a fastination for Elves. These could have prompted him to feel some compassion for Thranduil and so choose to defend him in the battle and give him the necklace to repay him for all the stolen food and wine.

I'm not going to get into the Arkenstone business because that seems to already have been well covered.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Bilbo, while hired to do a job, was neither a subject of Thorin, nor his servant. Rather he was a friend who felt it was an act of friendship to save Thorin, even from himself. And even at the risk of being disowned or even killed.

As Gandalf put it "Well done!, Mr. Baggins!"

You're right when you say that Bilbo could not have 'betrayed' Thorin because he had never given allegiance to him, as the dwarves did, and as the Rangers did to Aragorn II. He was also not an employee, so did not have that obligation to Thorin.

From the contract itself, and the events described, Bilbo was an independent contractor, a self-employed person, hired by the dwarves to take back (not 'steal' as it was their own property) treasure. He was promised a fourteenth share of the profits, Thorin modifying this to say that Bilbo could pick his own fourteenth. This Bilbo did, in the shape of the Arkenstone. As it was his property, he was entitled to dispose of it as he saw fit, in this case giving it to Bard for negotiating purposes. All this was prefectly legal and above board, covered in the contract.

In terms of giving the necklace to Thranduil, Bilbo felt that he owed him some compensation for the food and wine he had taken. There are also, as MCRmyGirl4eva correctly states, hints that he 'always had a fascination for Elves'.

The big joke in the book, I think, is that while Bilbo is described as a burglar, he's actually quite a respectable fellow, as shown above. Even in the case of Gollum and the ring, Bilbo genuinely didn't know who its owner was when he found it; and when he suspected the truth, he was in no mood to return the ring to someone who wanted to kill and eat him... In the same way, when he tried to pick a troll's pocket, any sympathy the reader might have for the troll is negated when he and the other two decide to kill and eat Bilbo and the dwarves.

The only time in The Hobbit where we can say Bilbo was a real burglar was when, after escaping with the dwarves from the Elvenking's halls, he stole food and drink from a village by the Long lake. The book does not record if he ever paid compensation for that theft...

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

The only time in The Hobbit where we can say Bilbo was a real burglar was when, after escaping with the dwarves from the Elvenking's halls, he stole food and drink from a village by the Long lake. The book does not record if he ever paid compensation for that theft...

I think you are referring to the cold, dripping night he spent when the barrels were collected and tied into a raft? Those were Elves of Thranduil working along the Forest River while still in the forest.

BTW, here is a link to a drawing Tolkien made titled Bilbo comes to the Huts of the Raftelves

There are even a few references to these later in Laketown as when Thorin declares "I speak to the Master of the men of the lake, NOT to the raft elves of the king"

At any event, Bilbo likely lumped that theft in with all the others during his stay in Thranduil's halls. And, no doubt, even the "small" present he made to the king more than covered (monetarily) the food he ate.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

I think you are referring to the cold, dripping night he spent when the barrels were collected and tied into a raft? Those were Elves of Thranduil working along the Forest River while still in the forest.

BTW, here is a link to a drawing Tolkien made titled Bilbo comes to the Huts of the Raftelves

There are even a few references to these later in Laketown as when Thorin declares "I speak to the Master of the men of the lake, NOT to the raft elves of the king"

At any event, Bilbo likely lumped that theft in with all the others during his stay in Thranduil's halls. And, no doubt, even the "small" present he made to the king more than covered (monetarily) the food he ate.

You're right, Puddleglum! We'll spotted!