Bilbo´s treachery

[Alfirin]

Another point that might come into confict is thry to define by what standard the 1/14th would be defined; by value, weight,volume etc. By volume or weight of course, Bilbo is perfectly fine. But if by value, which a lot of people would consider the "obvios" defintion especially given terms like "cash on demand"+-9 , then it is possible Thorin would possibly still be on decent legal ground (on the grounds that the Arkenstone was prized so greatly by the Dwarves that they would probably value it higher than the rest of the hoard put together).
Actually, the very terms of that contract sound a little sketchy anyway. You notice Thorin says from the beginning ("1/14 of the profits (if any) not "1/14 of the hoard". Nice an legal, but it actually does give Thorin a sneaky opening. In once sense it works to Bilbo's advantage, since it techically means he is entitled to 1/4 of the Troll hoard as well. But by defining it as "total profits" Thorin actually has ample opportunity, if he feels so inclined to cut Bilbo out entierly. He can claim that the hoard is communal property of the Dwaven kingdom of Erebor, and as such does not actually belong to any of the party personally, so no party profit actually ensued (i.e. bilbo is entiteld to 1/14 of nothing, and always was). Or he could deduct from the shares such expenses as accrued from the trip. For the dwarves these retroactive expenses are largely meaningless, as they are being paid from them to them (so it's really just being re-paid) but Bilbo, who is NOT a member of the Dwaven Kingdom, could easily find his 1/14 eaten up with "expenses". Or at best, Thorin could combine the two and say that the "profits" were the Troll hoard (since that actually WAS property claimed by the party), so Bilbo can have 1/14 of that, (actually since Thorin is probably planning to be busy setting up his kingdom for a while, he might have simply ceded ALL of the Troll hoard to Bilbo as his share (it can't be worth much compared to the whole of Erebor. Plus it is along Bilbo's way back home) and save himself having to send dwarves back to retrieve it.
Actually Thorin could actually claim Bard and Esgaroth owed THEM money, or that the debt was squared. Since Smaug's belly was largely plated with gold and gems from the hoard stuck to it, it could be argued that, when Smaug left the cave he took part of the Dwarves property with him, and that by deciding to shoot Smaug while he was over water (like Bard had a choice!) Bard deprived the Dwarves of a portion of thier property that might otherwise have been retrievalbe (If Smaug had died over land, presumably his body could have been dug up and the gems and gold retrieved) and that any question of remuniration could not be redressed until that portion was retrieved so the whole of the Hoard could be asseses (actually since at that point, Thorin did not know that Bilbo had the Arkenstone, it's a little odd he isn't brooding on that fact. Knowing that it should be there, and that he has not found it. the thought might enter into his mind that it was PART of the stuff stuck to Smaug's belly, and is now simply sitting at the bottom of Lake Esgaroth waiting to be retrieved. From that POV it's a wonder Thorin is calling in friends from the Iron hills with pumps to come and negotiating to drain the lake!

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Actually, the very terms of that contract sound a little sketchy anyway. You notice Thorin says from the beginning ("1/14 of the profits (if any) not "1/14 of the hoard". Nice an legal, but it actually does give Thorin a sneaky opening. In once sense it works to Bilbo's advantage, since it techically means he is entitled to 1/4 of the Troll hoard as well. But by defining it as "total profits" Thorin actually has ample opportunity, if he feels so inclined to cut Bilbo out entierly. He can claim that the hoard is communal property of the Dwaven kingdom of Erebor, and as such does not actually belong to any of the party personally, so no party profit actually ensued (i.e. bilbo is entiteld to 1/14 of nothing, and always was). Or he could deduct from the shares such expenses as accrued from the trip. For the dwarves these retroactive expenses are largely meaningless, as they are being paid from them to them (so it's really just being re-paid) but Bilbo, who is NOT a member of the Dwaven Kingdom, could easily find his 1/14 eaten up with "expenses".

Well that is what "of profits" means.

We have to remember though, Bilbo took but two small chets which was actually a fraction of his total share. Meanin they probably went with "value" to measure the shares, would the arkenstone outweighed the entirety of the horde I doubt it. I always felt while probably worth a fortune it was probably more of a sentimental thing.

However, to the intial point I thought Bilbo took the arkenstone to make it a bargaining chip to avoid battle. It seems to me though it backfired just angering Thorin further.

What is probably the strangest part of The Hobbit is that in the end the goblins saved the day. Do we think Gandalf could have stopped The Elves, Dwarves, and Lakemen from tearing each other apart?

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Well that is what "of profits" means.

of course that's what "of profits means". The point I was trying to make was that, by some legal hairsplitting, Thorin could have interpreted the contract so that, regardless of the actual outcome of the quest, he did not have to, or plan to, give Bilbo one red farthing, that should his avarice get the better of him, he could simply send Bilbo away with empty pockets and not technically have reneged on the terms of the contract. Or in the second case it would translate out to "yes you did your job , but I am taking your whole share to pay me back for having to take you in the first place (sort of a variation of the "your uncle has died and left you a million dollars, however with the taxes and fees you now owe us five million."

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

We have to remember though, Bilbo took but two small chets which was actually a fraction of his total share. Meanin they probably went with "value" to measure the shares, would the arkenstone outweighed the entirety of the horde I doubt it. I always felt while probably worth a fortune it was probably more of a sentimental thing.

Ah, but remember it would probably be the dwarves who would be the ones assesing the value of the treasure and the shares, so the arkenstone is "worth" whatever THEY say it is. It's a bit like trying to define the value of the crown jewels of England as based soley on their bullion content and per carat gem value. As for the two small chests, yes, it is far less than what Bilbo's share actually was as per contract, but the question is is it less, equal to or more than what Bilbo would have actually gotten had Thorin still been alive. Bilbo is riding away with those chests in a world where Dain is now King under the Mountain, who has gotten through a terrible battle, has nearly had his whole kingdom wiped out as soon as it was reclaimed and has just SEEN what the consequences of excessive greed ultimately got his cousin. Would Thorin have come to the same conclusion had he lived through the battle, or more to the point, had the battle not actually ocurred or been so devatstating to the Dwarves?

[Faramir Jones]

I have a theory that the two chests Bilbo took with him on his return journey from the Lonely Mountain are payment for two services rendered by him to the dwarves, not covered by the original contract: his rescuing them from the spiders; and secondly, his rescuing them from the Elvenking's cells.

I suggest this because, when the Mountain’s secret entrance was found, Thorin pointed out that now was Bilbo’s time ‘to perform the service for which he was included in our Company’, the time for him ‘to earn his Reward.’ Bilbo was a little indignant, because

I have got you out of two messes [the spiders and the Elvenking’s cells] already, which were hardly in the original bargain, so that I am, I think, already owed some reward. (My italics)

One could argue that Bilbo has already taken and disposed of his fourteenth share, in the shape of the Arkenstone; but that he still felt he was owed something for dealing with the 'two messes'.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

One could argue that Bilbo has already taken and disposed of his fourteenth share, in the shape of the Arkenstone; but that he still felt he was owed something for dealing with the 'two messes'.

The main issue with that interpretation is that Bilbo didn't want to take any of the treasure; he apparently just settled for the "two small chests, one filled with silver, and the other with gold" out of politeness to Dáin. I do wonder though if his failure to include any jewels there might not have been an after-affect of his dealings with the Arkenstone.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The main issue with that interpretation is that Bilbo didn't want to take any of the treasure; he apparently just settled for the "two small chests, one filled with silver, and the other with gold" out of politeness to Dáin. I do wonder though if his failure to include any jewels there might not have been an after-affect of his dealings with the Arkenstone.

I think all of us can agree that Bilbo doesn't need any of the treasure. His father was from a rich family, who married into a richer one, and who built Bag End with the money. Even taking into account that Bilbo is an only child, unmarried and childless, he still has enough money not to work and to still keep up Bag End.

The failure to include any jewels may be, as you suggest, a reference to Thorin originally agreeing that the Arkenstone would be exchanged for a fourteenth share of the treasure, but in silver and gold, setting aside the gems.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

The only thing that matters to Bilbo is trying to find a way to prevent all-out war and he's willing to betray his friends and give up all hope of treasure if that means he can stop the killing. He's the greatest hero of them all, as he is the only one who thinks it better to give the treasure away and not fight instead of killing for gold.

And I would remind you that the last thing Thorin does before he dies is to beg Bilbo's forgiveness: if he no longer sees what Bilbo has done in a bad way, why on earth should anybody else?