Bilbo´s treachery

[Zigûr]

Yes given that the Ring was not conceived of as an evil object at the time, and as I'm fairly sure Professor Tolkien did not revise those parts of the text after he did conceive of it that way, the role of the Ring does not seem especially relevant to me.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Yes given that the Ring was not conceived of as an evil object at the time, and as I'm fairly sure Professor Tolkien did not revise those parts of the text after he did conceive of it that way, the role of the Ring does not seem especially relevant to me.

Look. I recall seeing in the prose, Gandalf looking sideways at Bilbo about some of his behaviour. Do you recall that or not?

[Ivriniel]

He was writing on a version on the Hobbit in December 1937. The book involved a series of starts.

The story of the One Ring --was quick -- to emerge. And his Silmarillion stuff was his earlier works, and as I recall, during earlier years after WWI. Ah God, we all know this stuff here, don't we?

The Lord of the Rings, as a title was conceived in Spring of 1938. Not published until later--we all know that--so what.

So, Zigur, what's your point. And also Galadriel, what's yours?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

We never find out what measure of Bilbo's treachery was motivated by the then hold the ring exerted over Bilbo

We don't know whether or not he would have conceived the plot to place the dwarves on the back foot had there been no ring

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

What does anything have to do with anything, really, except as a discussion point or random expression of curiosity.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

So, Zigur, what's your point. And also Galadriel, what's yours?

My point is that you can't just throw out an idea that's not directly connected to the discussion preceding it without explanation and expect me to immediately agree. An explanation is also a key aspect of discussion, you know.

The only aspect of the Ring I can sense behind Bilbo's decision is invisibility. It's a tool without which it would have been much more difficult for Bilbo to succeed in his plan. Would this plan, or a variation of thereof to account for lack of invisibility, have existed had the Ring not been there? I think so, because that's what Bilbo would do. Did Bilbo have an attachment to the Ring? Perhaps or perhaps not. I really can't see why it matters, and if you think it does, then please explain the merits of your idea that attachment and dependence on the Ring was a main factor in pushing Bilbo to give the Arkenstone to Bard and the Elven King. You're the one who's making the claim; the evidence is first and foremost your responsibility.

And, yes, you need to do some convincing before I will see your side of the issue. I picture Gollum, a character who we all can agree is dependent on the Ring. What would he do in a similar situation? "Friendses, they said. Liars, and cheats! We have done our job, yesss.... They are treacherous, my precious, but we are good. Let those false friendses die in battle, and we will sit snuggly here and get more reward. Yes!" This is one of the several possible scenarios that came to my mind. But one scenario that I don't see happening is Gollum betraying a friend's trust for the benefit of the friend, not for his own gain or Ring-lust.

So please explain why it would matter so much in this situation that Bilbo was already attached to the Ring. Once you establish this connection, we can debate the extent of such attachment.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

PS - I wonder if Annatar had sex with the Noldor in the Ost In Edhil? These themes are never discussed and I often wonder why not. Case in point: Maeglin. It's a bit off topic, but I'm curious to hear your comments about this.

Then make a thread about it. Stop throwing out irrelevant ideas.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

My point is that you can't just throw out an idea that's not directly connected to the discussion preceding it without explanation and expect me to immediately agree. An explanation is also a key aspect of discussion, you know.

My point is, again, what's your point.

The only aspect of the Ring I can sense behind Bilbo's decision is invisibility. It's a tool without which it would have been much more difficult for Bilbo to succeed in his plan. Would this plan, or a variation of thereof to account for lack of invisibility, have existed had the Ring not been there? I think so, because that's what Bilbo would do. Did Bilbo have an attachment to the Ring? Perhaps or perhaps not. I really can't see why it matters, and if you think it does, then please explain the merits of your idea that attachment and dependence on the Ring was a main factor in pushing Bilbo to give the Arkenstone to Bard and the Elven King. You're the one who's making the claim; the evidence is first and foremost your responsibility.

And, yes, you need to do some convincing before I will see your side of the issue. I picture Gollum, a character who we all can agree is dependent on the Ring. What would he do in a similar situation? "Friendses, they said. Liars, and cheats! We have done our job, yesss.... They are treacherous, my precious, but we are good. Let those false friendses die in battle, and we will sit snuggly here and get more reward. Yes!" This is one of the several possible scenarios that came to my mind. But one scenario that I don't see happening is Gollum betraying a friend's trust for the benefit of the friend, not for his own gain or Ring-lust.

So please explain why it would matter so much in this situation that Bilbo was already attached to the Ring. Once you establish this connection, we can debate the extent of such attachment.



Then make a thread about it. Stop throwing out irrelevant ideas.

Its rubbish, don't you think to assert that Bilbo -- didn't -- lie to Gandalf about how he procured the ring? Don't you think, such --rubbish-- coming out of the Hobbit's mouth would mean that it was --rubbish-- to assert that the Ring wasn't doing it's zshoo zshoo hahaha (as in I am literally crying with laughter at this point) by the time Bilbo planted it on his lil-ole Hobbity-finger.

Such assertions, Galadriel in your prose also convey tacitly -- off topic -- descriptors. Don't we all. I've never found a purism in any thread.

A topic on whether or not Annatar was -- hot -- can easily be made part of on topic posting here. I did mention something I'd thought you'd miss. Most do. I used the term, specifically -- death lust -- which, of course? or not of course? is a theme in the Narrative. How is this relevant to ontopic Bilbo treachery. The dire lust of which I speak is tacit in most of Tolkien's psychosexual assumptions as he cast it through the narrative. To add to the death lust theory--Sauron was full of it(angry people are full of it too). No doubt he imbued it in the Ring. The same Ring in the Hobbit, not 'the Ring', but 'the Ring', or even 'the Ring' if you like.

It's a rather interesting topic, of itself. 'Seduction' although he typically stays clear of sexual implications, is not separate or dissociable--entirely--

About lies and Rings - psychosexuality and--lying--in all its forms are conjoined.

So, I look forwards to see where your -- dependencies or attachments -- reside in where you place your particular points to inspire? posters to respond to you.

PS I wonder what kind of regalry and clothing the vanities of Annatar included to entice the Noldor. Celebrimbor, who had such trouble courting -- Galadriel -- seemed rather taken by Annatar.......

*dries eyes after laughing doubled over* - that was a fun post to write, which is what I come to these boards for. Laughter. Certainly not the stupidity of being excessively serious and losing the --fun-- of posting.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

My point is, again, what's your point.

Oh nothing whatsoever. See, I was too busy daydreaming about Annatar's hot looks to actually explain myself on a thread about Bilbo's thoughts and motivations. So terribly sorry to inconvenience you.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Its rubbish, don't you think to assert that Bilbo -- didn't -- lie to Gandalf about how he procured the ring?

Please provide a link to a post in this thread where someone makes the assertion that Bilbo did not lie to Gandalf and the Dwarves about the Ring. A specific quote would be even better. Until you do so, this is a moot argument.

And while you're at it - maybe stop putting words into people's mouths. Your posts repeatedly imply that posters have said or asserted certain things that they clearly did not. It doesn't add to the strength of your arguments.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Don't you think, such --rubbish-- coming out of the Hobbit's mouth would mean that it was --rubbish-- to assert that the Ring wasn't doing it's zshoo zshoo hahaha (as in I am literally crying with laughter at this point) by the time Bilbo planted it on his lil-ole Hobbity-finger.

It's so funny that I can barely contain myself. Because see, the fact that the Ring may have had influence over Bilbo already, doesn't make it the prime motivator in Bilbo's choice to give the Arkenstone away - for no benefit to himself whatsoever, and at great risk to his friendships and even his well-being. And see, stating the same thing over and over again doesn't spark a desire in me to agree with what you're saying. A logical explanation might. In what way exactly did the Ring push Bilbo to give away the Arkenstone? What benefit would that give to the Ring? To Bilbo? What other possible motivations may augment this effect of conflict with it? I will gladly read the elaboration of your point of view if you link your statements with a logical thought progression.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

A topic on whether or not Annatar was -- hot -- can easily be made part of on topic posting here. I did mention something I'd thought you'd miss. Most do. I used the term, specifically -- death lust -- which, of course? or not of course? is a theme in the Narrative. How is this relevant to ontopic Bilbo treachery. The dire lust of which I speak is tacit in most of Tolkien's psychosexual assumptions as he cast it through the narrative. To add to the death lust theory--Sauron was full of it(angry people are full of it too). No doubt he imbued it in the Ring. The same Ring in the Hobbit, not 'the Ring', but 'the Ring', or even 'the Ring' if you like.

It's a rather interesting topic, of itself. 'Seduction' although he typically stays clear of sexual implications, is not separate or dissociable--entirely--

About lies and Rings - psychosexuality and--lying--in all its forms are conjoined.

That is such an interesting topic. So good of you to actually tangentially link it to the context of this thread.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

*dries eyes after laughing doubled over* - that was a fun post to write, which is what I come to these boards for. Laughter. Certainly not the stupidity of being excessively serious and losing the --fun-- of posting.

Well that explains a lot.

[Ivriniel]

Please provide a link to a post in this thread where someone makes the assertion that Bilbo did not lie to Gandalf and the Dwarves about the Ring. A specific quote would be even better. Until you do so, this is a moot argument.

And while you're at it - maybe stop putting words into people's mouths. Your posts repeatedly imply that posters have said or asserted certain things that they clearly did not. It doesn't add to the strength of your arguments.

There's a lot of 'words going into people's mouths' around here. Though, I've never known a--red blooded human being with flesh and bone--to not be likewise inclined. It's just words, Galadriel. That's all they are. Nothing sinister, or anything worthy of narcissistic inflammations. Just words. At my age, words sometimes grow very--wearying--and as my dear cousin said (who I love to bits) "I don't know what the bother is, words are just approximations".

About the 'lying thing'. You remember, don't ya? You know, when Bilbo was rabbiting on about 'finding it' and also avoiding disclosing owning it. There were lies of commission and of omission riddling (pardon the pun) Bilbo's behaviour.....(I'm weary. Must I find exact quotes so you can throw another Molotov Cocktail at your screen) hahaha

Ash Bilbo Durbataluk
Ash Bilbo Gimbatul
Ash Bilbo Thrakataluk
Agh Burzum ishi Krimpatul

hahahahahahahahahahah

You're being cheeky about 'the interesting topic' aren't you. I'm not quite sure how to lead a thread at these boards on psychosexuality - it could get problematic

"Was Annatar or Aragorn Hotter?" hahahahaha

"Did Galadriel's spurning of Celebrimbor stir death lust and make him more amenable to Annatar's clothing and looks?"

hahahahaha

[Ivriniel]

btw - are you one of those people that misuses 'moot' or not? I'm reading ur words with a look of 'hmmm I think she's one of 'those' who do'.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

...the fact that the Ring may have had influence over Bilbo already, doesn't make it the prime motivator in Bilbo's choice to give the Arkenstone away - for no benefit to himself whatsoever, and at great risk to his friendships and even his well-being.

For me, that's a crucial point in an argument against the Ring being a factor in Bilbo's dealings with the Arkenstone.

Doing what he did was really a selfless, dangerous act, and he handed the Arkenstone over to Bard with a "glance of longing", true, but no real problem. Even if he'd wanted the stone for himself, how would that have been to the benefit of the Ring?

I see Bilbo's mild lust for the stone as an artifact of his time with the Dwarves, and his limited contact with Smaug (touch of dragon-sickness, maybe).

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Do you recall that or not?

Are you talking about the "queer look" that Gandalf gives Bilbo in Chapter 5? I think that this may be a revision, but it doesn't change the fact that the material in Chapters 13 to 17 dealing with the Arkenstone does not appear to have been revised, which would show that Professor Tolkien wrote Bilbo's actions that way before he conceived of the Ring as being an evil influence. Maybe in hindsight the Ring could be hypothesised to have had a role, albeit one never stated as such by Professor Tolkien, but there was definitely a time in the published history of the text when it did not.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

So, Zigur, what's your point.

My point is that the Ring probably didn't influence Bilbo to treachery, or at least Professor Tolkien probably didn't mean it that way, because when he came up with that narrative he had not yet conceived of the Ring as a corruptive object which influenced people to do evil things.
Maybe if you treat the narrative as a consistent whole it could be considered, but I'm merely saying that from a certain point of view, external to the narrative, it doesn't seem like we're meant to think that the Ring influenced Bilbo in this way. If you were to read The Hobbit in isolation, for instance, the Ring's influence would not be evident.

EDIT: I was once able to find a page which systematically listed all of the revisions made between the first and later editions of The Hobbit but at present I can't find it...
EDIT 2: It's this page, but it only lists the revisions made to "Riddles in the Dark", which was after all the most substantial place where changes were made. There were other changes as well, but I'm fairly certain the idea of Bilbo giving the Arkenstone to Bard was present from the beginning. I believe the revisions outside of "Riddles in the Dark" were fairly minor.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Are you talking about the "queer look" that Gandalf gives Bilbo in Chapter 5? I think that this may be a revision, but it doesn't change the fact that the material in Chapters 13 to 17 dealing with the Arkenstone does not appear to have been revised, which would show that Professor Tolkien wrote Bilbo's actions that way before he conceived of the Ring as being an evil influence. Maybe in hindsight the Ring could be hypothesised to have had a role, albeit one never stated as such by Professor Tolkien, but there was definitely a time in the published history of the text when it did not.

My point is that the Ring probably didn't influence Bilbo to treachery, or at least Professor Tolkien probably didn't mean it that way, because when he came up with that narrative he had not yet conceived of the Ring as a corruptive object which influenced people to do evil things.
Maybe if you treat the narrative as a consistent whole it could be considered, but I'm merely saying that from a certain point of view, external to the narrative, it doesn't seem like we're meant to think that the Ring influenced Bilbo in this way. If you were to read The Hobbit in isolation, for instance, the Ring's influence would not be evident.

EDIT: I was once able to find a page which systematically listed all of the revisions made between the first and later editions of The Hobbit but at present I can't find it...
EDIT 2: It's this page, but it only lists the revisions made to "Riddles in the Dark", which was after all the most substantial place where changes were made. There were other changes as well, but I'm fairly certain the idea of Bilbo giving the Arkenstone to Bard was present from the beginning. I believe the revisions outside of "Riddles in the Dark" were fairly minor.

No.

“For Isildur would not surrender it to Elrond and Círdan who stood by. They counselled him to cast it into the fire of Orodruin night at hand... But Isildur refused this counsel, saying: 'This I will have as weregild for my father's death, and my brother's. Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death-blow?' And the Ring that he held seemed to him exceedingly fair to look on; and he would not suffer it to be destroyed.” I don't need to quote citation, I hope.

So - spelling it out, Isildur succumbing immediately. But of course, I can already hear the objection "the Ring was still near Orodruin and recently on Master's hand, and more powerful..." yada yada.

So, then Sméagol's "...birthday present..." and two Holbytlan battling to the death after Deagol finds the Ring.

And, I won't patronise the reader by digging out the quotes from Gandalf, warning that The Ring exerts its influence, immediately upon the user. The Shadow of the Past leaves its imprint. (And no, there's no real indication that the Ring was to be an artefact of lesser perversion because the Hobbit "was published first". Come off it. Prof John had Sauron's big vengeance plan ready to rock for aeons). Nor the dire warning Gandalf implied, when Bilbo spared Gollum, and the comments about "...pity..." staying Bilbo's hand, which perhaps explained the slower perversion of Bilbo.

Then there was that Bilbo wore the thing for a very long time in Thranduil's halls.

Is that not enough, yet for you Zigur? Or have I somehow missed something in the mythology?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

And no, there's no real indication that the Ring was to be an artefact of lesser perversion because the Hobbit "was published first". Come off it.

Literally all I'm saying is that The Hobbit, including the parts about the Arkenstone etc, were written before Professor Tolkien had conceived of the idea that the Ring corrupted people.

He did not invent this idea until after he had written The Hobbit.

Prof John had Sauron's big vengeance plan ready to rock for aeons

As far as I am aware, this is not the case. Until he began drafting and planning what became The Lord of the Rings, which was after The Hobbit was initially published, Professor Tolkien had only narrated what happened after the First Age as far as Númenor was concerned.

This did involve Sauron surviving and being a character in the narrative of Númenor, but the corresponding events in Middle-earth at the same time, especially the forging of the Rings of Power, had simply not been invented yet, and were not invented until it came to drafting The Lord of the Rings. When The Hobbit was written, Professor Tolkien did not imagine that the Ring was Sauron's Ring or that it was an evil object that influenced its bearer. He had not invented those parts of the story yet.

The drafts and notes published by Christopher Tolkien in The Return of the Shadow show this, I believe.

This is all I am trying to say.

EDIT: I am not doubting that the Ring influenced people to do evil/dubious things - of course not - just trying to suggest that it probably wasn't what Professor Tolkien had in mind when he was writing The Hobbit.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Literally all I'm saying is that The Hobbit, including the parts about the Arkenstone etc, were written before Professor Tolkien had conceived of the idea that the Ring corrupted people.

He did not invent this idea until after he had written The Hobbit.

I can't see how that can be the case. Do you have citations, because they'd be interesting to look at. Can you post them please.

My response:

Glaurung.....Smaug.....Sauron.....
Erebor.....Dwarves....Balrog.....First Age. He wrote First Age notes well ahead of the Hobbit. Why does 1927 come to mind?

as Númenor was concerned.

This did involve Sauron surviving and being a character in the narrative of Númenor, but the corresponding events in Middle-earth at the same time, especially the forging of the Rings of Power, had simply not been invented yet, and were no invented until it came to drafting The Lord of the Rings.....

When The Hobbit was written, Professor Tolkien did not imagine that the Ring was Sauron's Ring or that it was an evil object that influenced its bearer. He had not invented those parts of the story yet.

he was writing The Hobbit[/I].

Don't buy it. Mr Bad Boi Sauron (Annatar was bit hot, I'd have imagined, and would have roused a bit of Noldor death-lust, I'm sure). I'm sure JRRT would have had Sméagol/Gollum in his fore as he put the Hobbit together in the 30's, some nine or so years after his pouring out of First Age Notes, and only a year before The Lord of the Rings was titled as the sequel....

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I can't see how that can be the case.

Well, I'm sorry, but it is.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Do you have citations, because they'd be interesting to look at. Can you post them please.

Everything relevant is in The Return of the Shadow. I will post a couple of things, but looking further is up to you. It is an extensive text.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

He wrote First Age notes well ahead of the Hobbit.

He wrote "Quenta Silmarillion" before The Hobbit, yes. I am not denying this.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Don't buy it.

I'm sorry, but really? "Don't buy it"?!? Your flat refusal to even consider that what I'm saying might be true makes me question the purpose of doing this.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Mr Bad Boi Sauron (Annatar was bit hot, I'd have imagined, and would have roused a bit of Noldor death-lust, I'm sure). I'm sure JRRT would have had Sméagol/Gollum in his fore as he put the Hobbit together in the 30's, some nine or so years after his pouring out of First Age Notes, and only a year before The Lord of the Rings was titled as the sequel....

I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

To quote The Return of the Shadow, in Professor Tolkien's original conception of what became The Lord of the Rings, the Ring did not matter at all. There are four drafts presented before Professor Tolkien even begins considering the Ring as more than a possible "motive" for "Bungo" (the character before Frodo) to go looking for Bilbo, and when he does, he is not even sure if it is related to Sauron:

The Ring: whence its origin. Necromancer? Not very dangerous, when used for good purpose. But it exacts its penalty. You must either lose it, or yourself.

[The Return of the Shadow Part I (v)]
Going into more detail would involve quoting huge quantities of The Return of the Shadow. Reading the Histories of Middle-earth is really invaluable for sorting out the order in which Professor Tolkien invented these various elements.

The Treason of Isengard even shows that at one point Professor Tolkien imagined that the Rings of Power (other than Sauron's, admittedly) had been made in Valinor by Fëanor in the First Age:

In those days the Rings of Power were made. It is said that they were fashioned first by Feanor the greatest of all the makers among the Elves of the West, whose skill surpassed that of all folk that are or have been.

The history of the Second Age didn't exist at all at this point, and Professor Tolkien did not yet have a firm idea of what happened. These are all musings which occurred after The Hobbit was initially published, incidentally.