Gandalf’s Possible Inaccuracy in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past”

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

(...) I don’t think could Ar-Pharazôn even see it – remember that neither Sam nor Frodo could see Galadriel’s ring until Frodo saw Sauron in the Mirror.

I interpret this scene differently: Galadriel makes a gesture here with her hands (which arguably draws attention to them), and Earendil's light glanced upon her ring. Frodo did not suddenly see Nenya, but he gazed at the ring with awe "... for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood."

He understood. Later Sam says that he too saw something, the light, but he interpreted it to be a star through Galadriel's fingers. Sam did not understand, even though Galadriel had already said, aloud, that one of the Three is in Lorien, upon her finger. It might be that he literally didn't see Nenya, but if we take in Sam's experience with the mirror, he was arguably shaken and distracted: "Sam sat on the ground and put his head in his hands. "I wish I had never come here, and I don't want to see no more magic," he said and fell silent."

Sam actually says he doesn't want to "see no more magic", and after the Lady asks him about her Ring he appears to still be thinking about the gaffer and the Shire. Galadriel had said to Frodo: "And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger? Did you see my ring?" she asked turning to Sam." Frodo didn't just see a ring, he understood it was one of the Three. As Galadriel says, his sight had grown keener. Again I think Sam saw the same light but did not recognize or understand, his worry about the Shire and his gaffer still holding much of his attention.

Of course that's just my interpretation, but I also "see" no great reason for the Three to be invisible. So far

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Galin

Frodo did not suddenly see Nenya, but he gazed at the ring with awe "... for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood."

For clarity, Frodo may have suddenly seen a ring upon Galadriel's finger at this point too, but in the sense of noticing it, due to her gesture and so on. In other words, Nenya wasn't necessarily invisible, but after he saw it he suddenly understood.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Galin

For clarity, Frodo may have suddenly seen a ring upon Galadriel's finger at this point too, but in the sense of noticing it, due to her gesture and so on. In other words, Nenya wasn't necessarily invisible, but after he saw it he suddenly understood.

I don't recall Gandalf or Elrond ever being described with a noticeable ring. Elrond, I grant, was never described in great physical detail, however, Gandalf was. If the ring was visible either Gandalf didn't wear it on his finger or it was somehow shrouded...or Tolkien deliberately chose not to describe it.

[Galin]

In The Grey Havens (second edition version here) the story tells: "As he turned and came towards them Frodo saw that Gandalf now wore openly on his hand the Third Ring, Narya the Great, and the stone upon it was red as fire."

Again, some might interpret this to mean Narya was now visible. Not me though... not yet anyway (well, I mean it was visible anyway). Plenty of folks wear rings in the Primary World of course... if you've got a magic ring and you want to keep it secret you might not want to wear it openly in front of some (those who might recognize it as a special thing)... but others will just see a ring.

... if they even notice such things that is.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Galin

In The Grey Havens (second edition version here) the story tells: "As he turned and came towards them Frodo saw that Gandalf now wore openly on his hand the Third Ring, Narya the Great, and the stone upon it was red as fire."

Good catch, I had forgotten that incident.

However, I think that the emphasis on that should be on the word openly implying that at some point in the past he had not worn it openly.

[Gothmog, LoB]

Well, I just don't buy the idea that Sauron did take the One to Númenor. Tolkien's reasoning is pretty flawed in the letter, and he clearly did not consult what he had written in The Akallabêth before or he would have stumbled on those lines claiming that Sauron put the Great Ring up again.

I mean, in context this is pretty clear. We don't have any lines mentioning Sauron leaving the One behind but if he took the One back from Númenor then he wouldn't have had no reason to pick it up somewhere - which he does in the text, in spirit form in his tower.

@Alcuin:

The problem with the reasoning there is that we have to jump through a lot of hoops to believe that no knowledge about the Rings of Power ever came to Númenor.

1. We know that there was contact between the Númenóreans and Lindon, and they eventually came to their aid. While it would make in hindsight sense for the Elves to not talk about the Rings back then Gil-galad could easily have talked about them. Even more so if he wanted to convince Telperien or Minastir to come to their aid.

2. Three great Númenóreans became Nazgûl. We don't know how or when exactly, nor who those guys were in life but if such a transformation did occur in Númenor then the Kings would have learned about that.

3. More importantly they would later also clashed with the Nazgûl on occasion in their wars in Middle-earth.

Tolkien himself fails to provide us with the possibility that the One might have been invisible, making it unlikely that this was the case. His scenario is that Ar-Pharazôn did not recognize the One as being important.

The idea that the One could be hidden the same way the Three obviously were doesn't feel right to me. It is an instrument of enormous power, it *wants* to be seen and the power its wearer gains through it would be visible, too. I doubt that a Sauron wearing the Ring could successfully fool the Númenóreans into believing that he was weak and so on. The Ring would have made Sauron appear powerful and regal, like the Maia he was, and that would have been more of an obstacle than a help.

Whether the Three can be made invisible or not is another matter, but one we don't have to decide. Gandalf, Galadriel, and Elrond should all have the power to conceal such an item without using its power but rather other innate powers they do have.

The idea that characters just don't recognize any visible rings for what they are makes no sense because Saruman kept Gandalf imprisoned at Orthanc. If he can take his staff from him he should also be able to Narya from him but he didn't. One assumes that Gandalf was indeed somehow able to conceal the Ring from Saruman.

This example would suggests that perhaps there was some 'invisibility spell' on the Three, or that the Three indeed gave their wearers the ability to keep them hidden. IF Gandalf tried to hide Narya with some Maia tricks from Saruman one assumes he would have seen through that.

But in the case of the One I don't think invisibility of the Ring itself was an option.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

2. Three great Númenóreans became Nazgûl. We don't know how or when exactly, nor who those guys were in life but if such a transformation did occur in Númenor then the Kings would have learned about that.

According to the Tale of Years the Nazgûl appeared in 2251, but the Shadow fell on Númenor around 1800 and they began colonising Middle-earth in that time. My suspicion would be that Sauron gave three of the Nine to Númenóreans who were in charge of, or at least Men of significance in, Númenórean dominions in Middle-earth, which would lead me to imagine that they were not in Númenor when their gradual transformation into wraiths occurred.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

According to the Tale of Years the Nazgûl appeared in 2251, but the Shadow fell on Númenor around 1800 and they began colonising Middle-earth in that time. My suspicion would be that Sauron gave three of the Nine to Númenóreans who were in charge of, or at least Men of significance in, Númenórean dominions in Middle-earth, which would lead me to imagine that they were not in Númenor when their gradual transformation into wraiths occurred.

I wrote an essay on this many years ago. “The Shadow falls on Númenor” is probably a reference to Sauron’s ensnaring three lords of the Númenóreans, whose influence began (or accelerated) the corruption of Númenórean society.

We know Sauron took the One Ring with him because Tolkien tells us he did. (Letters 211, already cited in this thread.) The body he first made for himself could shift form (“Beren and Lúthien” in Silmarillion: he shifted to a gigantic wolf in an attempt to kill Huan, then shifted to a great vampire bat when Lúthien released him after he yielded Tol Sirion to her; later he shifted his appearance in his disguise as “Annatar”) was destroyed when Númenor fell into the abyss, and his spirit – with the Ring – fled to Mordor. There he constructed a new body for himself (expending energy doing this: Letter 199, already cited in this thread.) but the new body he made was unable to shift form. (If you have not considered it before, it is described in terms very like Durin’s Bane, like a Balrog: man-shaped, larger than a man but not gigantic, of profound darkness.) When Tolkien wrote that Sauron “took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr”, a reasonable literal interpretation is that he put it on his new hand. (That interpretation is in accord with Galin’s in this thread.)

It certainly seems the Rings of Power connected the visible world to the invisible in order to slow the effects of Time. Slowing the effect of Time is a primary Elvish motive in making the Rings of Power: Elven regret of loss due to time is the weakness Sauron used to tempt them into using his techniques (his “science” or “engineering”, if you will) to resolve what he convinced them perceive as a problem. We aren’t told this explicitly, but it sounds as if the methods Sauron used to slow the effects of time were necromantic in nature. The Great Rings made Men (and Hobbits) invisible as a result, but not Dwarves. We can assume they did not make Elves invisible, and I think that’s correct, but we only know it for certain about the Three, because we know for certain Galadriel was wearing Nenya but remained visible. Bombadil caused the One Ring to vanish, which rather suggests he moved it completely into the invisible (“wraith”) world for a moment. (Bombadil was also able to see Frodo when Frodo put on the Ring.)

Taken together, this offers a “mechanism” consistent with the mythos for the Keepers of the Three to hide their Rings from sight, or at least from the sight of Mortals: They could move their Rings into the invisible (“wraith”) world. The Eldar in the Third Age, some of whom (e.g., Glorfindel) could see the invisible world, would hardly tell Sauron’s spies and allies where the Three were disposed even if they could see them.

If you want absolute confirmation one way or another, Gothmog, LoB, you will have to wait to see if Tolkien opined on this in his voluminous notes kept in the J.R.R. Tolkien Collection at Marquette University and Bodleian Library at the University of Oxford. He certainly he mused upon it, and it since he seems to have been in the habit of writing down his musings, there’s a good chance it’s buried somewhere in his notes. But I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for anyone to find and publish it.

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

According to the Tale of Years the Nazgûl appeared in 2251, but the Shadow fell on Númenor around 1800 and they began colonising Middle-earth in that time. My suspicion would be that Sauron gave three of the Nine to Númenóreans who were in charge of, or at least Men of significance in, Númenórean dominions in Middle-earth, which would lead me to imagine that they were not in Númenor when their gradual transformation into wraiths occurred.

That is plausible to an extent but we have to keep in mind that the people ensnared by the Nine were (quoting from memory) 'the kings, warriors, and sorcerers of old'. There was no Númenórean king among them, of course, so this category is off the table, and we also don't know whether there were any sorcerers in Númenor (that is not a positive profession in Tolkien's work, so one would look for those also among the men of Middle-earth).

That leaves the warriors. However, considering the life expectancy of the Númenóreans and the fact that Sauron would have been interested in learning more about Númenor it seems unlikely that none of the future Nazgûl didn't at least visit Númenor prior to their transformation.

I'm with you that they probably didn't become Nazgûl on the island but there would have been there occasionally, and people should have realized that something was wrong with them. Say, they might have grown very ambitious, over-reaching themselves, uncovering secrets nobody should know and revealing knowledge nobody among the Dúnedain had any ideas about.

And depending how old they were when they got the Rings (if there were members of the Line of Elros among them they must have received later in life or else they wouldn't have yet been wraiths around 2251 SA) people around them must have realized that something was wrong with them.

Even if they spend most of their time in some Númenórean colonies in Middle-earth other Númenóreans would have been with them and reported stuff back.

@Alcuin:

Actually, the Ósanwe-kenta indicates that Tolkien changed his view on Sauron's body. It was actually first destroyed (at least in known history) during his confrontation with Huan and Lúthien in the Lay of Leithian.

We also don't know whether Sauron was continuously embodied after that. We have no account on his role during the War of Wrath, after all, but we do know that he took on his fair hue when he presented himself to Eonwe. Whether this was done 'from scratch' (i.e. with him having no body before) or whether he just changed his physical body is unclear.

Reading into your essay I think we can resolve the discrepancy between Minastir and Telperien resolve simply by making her the one who sent the fleet and Minastir the one who lead it as her heir and general. The idea that she of all queens was forced to do anything is very unlikely considering how she is described. And dating her death back decades would destroy what little we know about her age and strength of will.

The idea of the Shadow having something to do with the later Nazgûl is interesting in general, but I don't think this is really necessary. The Kings didn't need some evil whisperer telling them that the Ban was crap. That they could figure out themselves, or rather their innate and growing pride and hubris could do that for them.

The identity of the Witch-king is an interesting topic to speculate. If he was of the royal line he could easily have been merely a member of a more distant cadet branch. Considering the Númenórean marriage practice there would have been a lot of relatives of the various kings over the years, not just the Lords of Andunie. And those of the Line of Elros could easily have had influence on the council or behind the scenes even without being members of the royal family.

As to the invisibility:

This should be feature that all wielders of the Rings of Power should be able to control as soon as they learned to properly use them (which Frodo, Bilbo, Gollum, and Isildur never did). The Nine most likely did not become invisible to other men just when they put their rings on but only when they deliberately wanted to walk around unseen.

We don't know whether the Three included that feature but if they did then there is even a small chance that a Noldo wearer of a Ring of Power could have used its might to hide himself from his peers because the ring extended his power to such a degree to pull this off. What the purpose of this would have been I don't know.

Your explanation about 'Sauron taking up the Great Ring' doesn't convince me, though. In The Akallabêth Sauron's spirit takes up the Ring, not his new body, and that makes only sense if he didn't have it on him when he came back to Barad-dûr in spirit form.

In fact, this version of events (rather than the one from Of the Rings of Power better explains how quickly Sauron restored his body. Being close to and in spirit form *possessing* the One helped him create himself a new body. The ringless Sauron in the Third Age needs centuries or even millennia to restore his body. We don't know when exactly it is *complete* but one can argue that Sauron was not yet fully embodied again by the time Gandalf went to Dol Guldur in 2063 TA.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

That is plausible to an extent but we have to keep in mind that the people ensnared by the Nine were (quoting from memory) 'the kings, warriors, and sorcerers of old'. There was no Númenórean king among them, of course, so this category is off the table, and we also don't know whether there were any sorcerers in Númenor (that is not a positive profession in Tolkien's work, so one would look for those also among the men of Middle-earth).

That leaves the warriors. However, considering the life expectancy of the Númenóreans and the fact that Sauron would have been interested in learning more about Númenor it seems unlikely that none of the future Nazgûl didn't at least visit Númenor prior to their transformation.

Actually, in a footnote to Letter 156 (4 November, 1954), Tolkien wrote:

* There were evil Númenóreans: Sauronians, but they do not come into this story, except remotely; as the wicked Kings who had become the Nazgûl or Ringwriaths.

The emphasis is mine. Also, in another missive, Letter 131 (undated, likely 1951), Tolkien delineates the area of suzerainty of these evil Númenórean Kings, sub-kings and sorcerous lords:

The Númenóreans carry their evil also to Middle-earth and there become cruel and wicked lords of necromancy, slaying and tormenting men; and the old legends are overlaid with dark tales of horror. This does not happen, however, in the North-West; for thither, because of the Elves, only the Faithful who remain Elf-friends will come. The chief haven of the good Númenóreans is near the mouth of the great river Anduin.

Again, the emphasis is mine. So, we are talking far south of Lebennin, Pelargir and Harondor, even further than Umbar (not yet overrun by Corsairs). The King in Númenór would have limited sway over the self-professed Númenórean kings and lords of Far Harad; in fact, in HoME 12, The Peoples of ME in the "Tale of Years" for the dates 2000-3000 2nd Age, we find the mention of "The King's Folk establish lordships in Umbar and Harad and in many other places on the coasts of the Great Lands"; undoubtedly, one of those "lords of necromancy" would eventually become the Witch-King. Later mentions of Herumor and Fuinir being Númenórean Lords of the Haradrim and even the mention of the Mouth of Sauron being a Black Númenórean (which I find fascinating, as Tolkien referred to that race as "dwindled" centuries before MoS could possibly have been born), articulate Tolkien's continued association of Evil or eventually Black Númenórean kingdoms to the far South.

So, yes, the Númenóreans who became Ringwraiths were Kings, sorcerors or lords of necromancy. They, above all other races in Middle-earth, would have the necromantic knowledge spurred in Númenór and present even in a distant descendant like the Mouth of Sauron, who learned the Black Arts directly from Sauron himself. Even the "Good" Númenóreans created items "wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor", as the Blades of Westernesse could attest.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

Even if they spend most of their time in some Númenórean colonies in Middle-earth other Númenóreans would have been with them and reported stuff back.

That's certainly possible, although even if strange things happened it doesn't mean that the Númenóreans became aware of the Rings. As Morthoron has offered, they may have become essentially lords of rogue colonies who paid lip service to Armenelos without having too much direct contact. I'm imagining a "Mister Kurtz in Heart of Darkness" type situation in which Númenórean lords in Harad are still nominally under the authority of the empire but are sufficiently isolated and/or cautious that they operate with virtual autonomy. It's also possible that before anything too "strange" happened the Númenórean Ringbearers faked their own deaths, abdicated or disappeared and then went to join Sauron, which might have been suspicious, but not sufficiently telling to indicate with much specificity what was happening.

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

The idea of the Shadow having something to do with the later Nazgûl is interesting in general, but I don't think this is really necessary. The Kings didn't need some evil whisperer telling them that the Ban was crap. That they could figure out themselves, or rather their innate and growing pride and hubris could do that for them.

I agree with this. While Alcuin's essay is interesting, I don't think there's necessarily a correlation between the Rings and the darkening of Númenor, and in some respects I think it's more thematically effective if there isn't - after all, Sauron himself is "but a servant or emissary", not the sole source of evil in the later Ages. We could also go down the "textual history" route of arguing that the Númenor story was invented before the Rings of Power story, but admittedly in early (1937) versions of Númenor the darkening did not really happen in any great degree (although there was some discontent) until Sauron himself came.