Gandalf’s Possible Inaccuracy in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past”

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Good thoughts.

I find this assertion of Hammond and Scull to be curious, however:

Isn't this incorrect? In Unfinished Tales, in "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn", it states of the first Council in the Second Age, after the War of the Elves and Sauron, that "At that time also Gil-galad gave Vilya, the Blue Ring, to Elrond". He appears to have given Vilya to Elrond when he was hale and hearty, well before they departed for Mordor - one thousand, seven hundred and thirty three years before the Battle of Dagorlad in fact, more than half the length of the entire Second Age.

In my head I generally imagined that Elrond left Vilya behind in Imladris when he accompanied Gil-galad to Mordor, and I similarly imagined that Círdan did the same with Narya. It seems like bringing any of the Three to Mordor, even (of course) unworn, would have been an incredibly stupid thing to do.

I think there are conflicting accounts when exactly Gil-galad gave Vilya and Narya to Elrond and Círdan, respectively, but nothing suggests Elrond only received Vilya from a dying Gil-galad. But I don't recall right the exact discrepancy, but if I'm not mistaken then it is between 'Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn' and 'Of the Rings of Power'.

In fact, the assumption that Gil-galad (or Elrond, Círdan, and Galadriel - if she was with the army) would have taken any of the Three into Mordor during the war against Sauron doesn't make any sense. If they had lost the war or been captured Sauron could have gained possession of the Rings, not to mention that it is by no means certain that Sauron while wearing the One could not have detected or felt the presence of the Three this close by. Perhaps he might even have been able to read the minds of the guardians of the Three while they had them in their pockets.

After all, the One Ring also has an effect on Frodo even before he puts it on his finger for the first time (it slows his aging process just as it did with Bilbo before). Granted, the Three weren't made by Sauron, but they were still under the dominion of the One.

One assumes Gil-galad, Galadriel, Círdan, and Elrond hid the Three somewhere in their abodes and never took them out until Sauron was overthrown and the One taken from him. And even then it might have taken quite some time until Elrond and Galadriel finally gave into temptation and actually tested what they could achieve with Nenya and Vilya.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

The Rings were never meant for Mortals in the first place.

This begs the question of why did they make so many and who were the original intended recipients.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

If they had lost the war or been captured Sauron could have gained possession of the Rings

My thoughts exactly. We can't imagine they brought them with them to use them, because at the time Sauron still had the One, so they couldn't use them. If any of them had, as you say, been captured, or if they had been killed and their body not recovered, Sauron would have gained one of the very things they had fought a bloody war earlier in the Age to keep from him.

In any event, I don't believe we ever hear of Gil-galad or Elendil having time to say or do anything as they died; I always got the impression both were killed very quickly, and we know that Gil-galad was burnt alive (I always imagine something like the way Harry "accidentally" kills Quirrel in Philosopher's Stone) by the hand of Sauron, so if he made any noise, he was probably screaming

Thus I personally see Vilya being left at Imladris, and Narya at Mithlond; given that they discussed similar ideas at the Council of Elrond we might imagine there being something like a backup plan, so that those who stayed behind would take the Rings over the Sea in the event that the Alliance lost the war.

As an aside, it strikes me as potentially (but not necessarily) inconsistent that Sauron's spirit was capable of carrying off the One during the drowning of Númenor, but could not do so from Mordor at the end of the Second Age. Why wasn't Isildur grabbing at it out of the air as it slipped off Sauron's severed finger and floated away into the East? Presumably Sauron could no longer achieve feats like this, having expended so much power in creating another body for himself after the last one was drowned.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

As an aside, it strikes me as potentially (but not necessarily) inconsistent that Sauron's spirit was capable of carrying off the One during the drowning of Númenor, but could not do so from Mordor at the end of the Second Age. Why wasn't Isildur grabbing at it out of the air as it slipped off Sauron's severed finger and floated away into the East? Presumably Sauron could no longer achieve feats like this, having expended so much power in creating another body for himself after the last one was drowned.

I don't find that inconsistent at all. I think you have provided a rational explanation.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

As an aside, it strikes me as potentially (but not necessarily) inconsistent that Sauron's spirit was capable of carrying off the One during the drowning of Númenor, but could not do so from Mordor at the end of the Second Age. Why wasn't Isildur grabbing at it out of the air as it slipped off Sauron's severed finger and floated away into the East? Presumably Sauron could no longer achieve feats like this, having expended so much power in creating another body for himself after the last one was drowned.

I see in those two examples a fundamental difference in what was happening to Sauron.

At Númenor, Sauron's physical form was unexpectedly destroyed by the force of the waters inundating the island. His fea was completely intact.

After fighting off Elendil and Gil-galad, and robbed of the Ring by Isildur, his hold not only on his corporeal body but also his very spirit was sudden;y weakened. The shock alone could have rendered him incapable of doing anything to regain the Ring.

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

As an aside, it strikes me as potentially (but not necessarily) inconsistent that Sauron's spirit was capable of carrying off the One during the drowning of Númenor, but could not do so from Mordor at the end of the Second Age. Why wasn't Isildur grabbing at it out of the air as it slipped off Sauron's severed finger and floated away into the East? Presumably Sauron could no longer achieve feats like this, having expended so much power in creating another body for himself after the last one was drowned.

That is actually easily resolved. Sauron didn't take the One with him to Númenor in the first place. Both The Akallabêth and Of the Rings of Power tell us that Sauron took up the One again after he had returned to Barad-dûr. If he had brought the Ring with him in spirit form he would have had no need to take it up again unless we infer against the text that he put it down for some time, doing other spirit things in spirit form before beginning his work to restore his body.

There are two important reasons why Sauron might have deliberately chosen to keep the One hidden in Barad-dur, protected by the Nazgûl and his armies (who might not have known that the Ring was back there):

1. He wanted to appear humble and defeated in the eyes of Ar-Pharazôn. The One, as a Ring of Power, enhanced his power both in appearance (Sauron would appear more powerful etc. than he might actually be, just as Galadriel did when Nenya's light concentrated on her) and in actuality (however that worked exactly). But Sauron did not want to appear terrible and powerful, he wanted to win the trust of the King and Númenor and corrupt and ruin him.

2. He might have feared that the Númenóreans would actually take the Ring from him and use it against him. His armies were terrified by the might and splendor of Ar-Pharazôn, after all, and he was at the peak of his power and wearing the Ring at that time. One can but wonder what Pharazôn could have done or become had he taken the Ring from Sauron. And he could have done that, there is no doubt about that. Keep in mind that Sauron never feared that anybody would destroy the Ring, but it is never stated that he never feared to lose the Ring to a superior enemy and thus be usurped and replaced by a new Dark Lord who takes everything from him. He certainly might have feared that Ar-Pharazôn would attempt to do that.
Sauron leaving the instrument and symbol of his power and rule over Middle-earth - his crown if you will - back at Barad-dûr would also symbolize that he only temporarily abandoned his seat. He would come back eventually as he did. And the Nazgûl most certainly were completely under his thumb by then. They could not have taken the One for themselves in any case, and they would have guarded it against any mortal lieutenant of Sauron's who might have entertained such notions (had any such known that Sauron had left the Ring behind).
We also have to keep in mind that Númenóreans must have known about the existence of the Rings of Power. Three Nazgûl were Númenóreans after all, and if some of them were of the line of Elros (which is not unlikely in my opinion) then they would have known even more about them.

There is a letter (or a draft of a letter) in which Tolkien talks about Sauron's spirit bringing the One back from the abyss that took Númenor but you can see while reading that letter that he begins to wonder how that would have worked. My guess is the lines in The Akallabêth and Of the Rings of Power talking about him taking the One up again might have been inspired by such ideas.

Of course, if you want to insist that Sauron must have taken the Ring to Númenor then one could speculate that Sauron's body being destroyed by some natural disaster isn't *metaphysically* or *legally* the same as him being overthrown by living enemies (and there is some truth to that). Gil-galad/Elendil and subsequently Isildur had a certain right to the Ring because it was taken from him in combat, and that could indeed explain why Sauron's spirit was unable to snatch the Ring from his own body or out of Isildur's hand.

But then, being crushed by Ilúvatar himself (or by the Valar being granted greater power by Ilúvatar) should have had an even more devastating effect on Sauron so ... this is tricky.

Anyway, I'm firmly in the camp of those who believe that the Ring never was in Númenor in the first place.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

We also have to keep in mind that Númenóreans must have known about the existence of the Rings of Power. Three Nazgûl were Númenóreans after all, and if some of them were of the line of Elros (which is not unlikely in my opinion) then they would have known even more about them.

In Letter 211, however, Professor Tolkien does state that "I do not think Ar-Pharazôn knew anything about the One Ring. The Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret, as long as they could. In any case Ar-Pharazôn was not in communication with them."
Of course this is the same letter in which Professor Tolkien states that Sauron had the Ring with him in Númenor, so I suppose, if you dismiss that idea, the idea that Pharazôn was ignorant of the Ring can be dismissed as well, but that borders upon dismissing too much in my opinion. In any event the Ring could have been easily hidden when he was taken prisoner, and would have looked like a piece of ordinary jewellery in any event.

I don't have a problem with Sauron having the Ring in Númenor but I do find the image of his spirit carrying it off back to Middle-earth with him rather silly.

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

In Letter 211, however, Professor Tolkien does state that "I do not think Ar-Pharazôn knew anything about the One Ring. The Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret, as long as they could. In any case Ar-Pharazôn was not in communication with them."
Of course this is the same letter in which Professor Tolkien states that Sauron had the Ring with him in Númenor, so I suppose, if you dismiss that idea, the idea that Pharazôn was ignorant of the Ring can be dismissed as well, but that borders upon dismissing too much in my opinion. In any event the Ring could have been easily hidden when he was taken prisoner, and would have looked like a piece of ordinary jewellery in any event.

I don't have a problem with Sauron having the Ring in Númenor but I do find the image of his spirit carrying it off back to Middle-earth with him rather silly.

Well, that image isn't sillier than the idea that spirit beings would live in a city made of stone (Valmar). Or that spirit people can be bound by physical chains (Angainor).

In any case, the letter is at least partially at odds with spirit Sauron taking up the ring again. Here is the quote from The Akallabêth:

But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure.

The context implies he didn't have the Ring with him when he returned from Númenor.

That's from Of the Rings of Power:

Thus the Exiles of Númenor established their realms in Arnor and in Gondor; but ere many years had passed it became manifest that their enemy, Sauron, had also returned. He came in secret, as has been told, to his ancient kingdom of Mordor beyond the Ephel Dúath, the Mountains of Shadow, and that country marched with Gondor upon the east. There above the valley of Gorgoroth was built his fortress vast and strong, Barad-dûr, the Dark Tower; and there was a fiery mountain in that land that the Elves named Orod-ruin. Indeed for that reason Sauron had set there his dwelling long before, for he used the fire that welled there from the heart of the earth in his sorceries and in his forging; and in the midst of the Land of Mordor he had fashioned the Ruling Ring. There now he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for himself a new shape; and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed for ever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Númenor. He took up again the great Ring and clothed himself in power; and the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even of the great among Elves and Men could endure.

There is only a difference as to when Sauron took the Great Ring up again. Either still in spirit form or only after he made himself a body again. But both quotes actually imply he didn't wear the Ring in spirit or in bodily form before he took it up again.

I really think we can dismiss the letter in those cases.

Not to mention that the talk about the Elves being secretive about the Rings isn't very convincing, if you think about it. Not if Sauron truly did give three of the Nine to Númenóreans. The fact that Sauron had magical rings and once given them to various people must have been known. And Sauron wearing some ring in Númenor could easily have triggered the greed of the One. After all, that thing looked very tempting to many people and could be most likely not easily be disguised as just some jewelery. Not to mention that it isn't even clear whether Sauron could wear the Ring and not have this burning hand he had when he fought Gil-galad (or display some other visible feature or great power and might). I mean, the One Ring is one of the most powerful artifacts in those stories and I'd be very irritated if Tolkien himself actually thought anybody else beside Tom Bombadil could treat it like a trinket. And Sauron would have at least play the charade of it being insignificant.

[Belegorn]

I think that perhaps the Nine and the One did have effect on the Númenórean population overall for many hundreds of years. In 1697 Sauron got the Rings of Power for the most part, but by the late 20th to the early 21st Centuries a shadow had fallen on Númenor. I think this was the shadow "in which may be the will of Morgoth was at work that still moved in the world." [Akallabêth] This perhaps started with some stray Númenóreans and a couple may have been given a Ring of Power at this time, working their influence on their bearers and those in their sphere of influence. After his capture I think Sauron put the One to heavy use in Númenor as it was his chief means to dominate others. He continued to stoke the fears perhaps stirred first by early infiltrators with the Nine (not all of the Nine of course) who were among the populace in Númenor. Melkor worship, human sacrifice, and not just of lesser Men, but of their own people, the Faithful, abandonment of any regard for the Valar, the attack on Valinor, et cetera. I believe in his letters Tolkien mentioned that it was not an altogether out there idea that Sauron could carry the Ring back from the destruction of Númenor without his body as he and his kind, as spirits, were involved in the shaping of Arda.

[Alcuin]

In Letter 211, Tolkien wrote,

Sauron was first defeated by a “miracle”: a direct action of God the Creator, changing the fashion of the world, when appealed to by Manwë… Though reduced to “a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind”, I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended.

You might ask why Sauron did not or could not do this after Elendil and Gil-galad killed him on the slopes of Orodruin, preventing Isildur from cutting off his finger and taking the One Ring.
In Letter 199, Tolkien wrote that the Ainur “often took the form and likeness” of Elves and Men, “especially after their appearance.”

…Sauron appeared in this shape. It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was “real”, that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that … did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gil-galad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the “will” or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear “mythologically” in the present book.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

This begs the question of why did they make so many and who were the original intended recipients.

The smiths of Eregion made them for themselves.

The original population of Rivendell was made up of survivors of Sauron’s assault upon Eregion in the Second Age: Gil-galad sent an expeditionary force from Lindon under Elrond to bolster Eregion’s defenses until the Númenórean fleet arrived. Sauron’s armies swept into and to the west of Eregion, to block both any further assistance from Gil-galad and any retreat to him from Eregion. Elrond led the survivors to Imladris; the context as I recall it indicated that these were not very numerous.

Before the War between Sauron and the Elves, there were two sizable Noldorin polities. The greater and more numerous was Lindon, where there were also a large number of Sindar. The smaller was Eregion, where the Noldor established what we might call a “colony” outside the immediate control of Gil-galad. Depending upon which storyline you follow, its settlement might have been instigated by Galadriel, Celebrimbor, or both acting together. Though nominally under the suzerainty of Gil-galad as Noldorin High King, Eregion was essentially politically independent. After Gil-galad prevented Annatar (Sauron in disguise) from entering Lindon, Celebrimbor and the Mírdain (society of smiths) welcomed him in Eregion. When Galadriel, who was in Eregion, objected to the Mírdain’s welcome of Annatar, she was ostracized and left; she did not return to Lindon, but rather to Lothlórien, a kingdom of Silvan Elves ruled by Sindar.

Though it isn’t stated, it is very difficult to resist these conclusions

• The Noldor were divided politically from the beginning. The Sindar said the Noldor returned to Middle-earth for more room to argue.
• It sounds as if a lot of the surviving Fëanorians still in Middle-earth followed Celebrimbor and Galadriel to Eregion, where they exercised considerable political independence, including a close alliance with the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm.
• Though smaller in population than Lindon, the Elves of Eregion were numerous, certainly many times the number of refugees who founded Rivendell. It had a city, Ost-in-Edhil, well-executed roads, and seems to have had numerous other settlements as well. It sounds as if the Tower of the Mírdain was a sort of guild hall, with most of the shops and smithies of its members throughout the city and country.
• The appearance of Annatar further fractured Noldorin polity, with Galadriel splitting off and moving even further [west [sic]] east [hat tip Belegorn], over the Misty Mountains.

We aren’t given any indication how many Mírdain there were, but it seems they were rather numerous. Proud and self-willed, it isn’t difficult to see that they would all want Rings of various sorts, and of course these Rings should enable the Elves wielding them to shrug off or even forestall the effects of time, as well as enhance other skills or abilities the smiths found useful or desirable. Celebrimbor made the Three by himself; you may well ask for whom he made them, and why did he make three instead of only one? I cannot answer that, except that it permits Tolkien to tell a great story! You might also argue whether he alone made them, or other smiths assisted. But there is no reason for the proud Smiths of Eregion to craft rings for the use of Mortal Men or Dwarves, and there was no particular reason for them to stop making Great Rings until they bored of the effort. After all, they were Noldor, and it was Art. Useful Art, but Art. Why did they make so many? I don’t know, but I think you might as well as ask a famous painter why he continues to paint: He enjoys it. That’s what he does.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

]The appearance of Annatar further fractured Noldorin polity, with Galadriel splitting off and moving even further west, over the Misty Mountains.

That'd be East. Silvan Elves always under the rule of a Sinda or Noldo!

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

The smiths of Eregion made them for themselves.

I had never given this aspect of the Rings much thought before.

What does this say about the inherent malign nature of the rings that when in the hands of Men and Dwarves they had such pronounced negative impacts, especially in the case of men?

Could the prolonging of life granted by the Nine in particular have something to do with the Elvish desire, and power put into the rings, to slow the effects of time?

Or were the negative aspects of the rings all rooted in the existence of the One Ring?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

Not to mention that the talk about the Elves being secretive about the Rings isn't very convincing, if you think about it. Not if Sauron truly did give three of the Nine to Númenóreans. The fact that Sauron had magical rings and once given them to various people must have been known.

It's possible, but I can also imagine that the possessors of the Nine might have kept them fairly secret in order to not risk attracting the greed of others. I'm also not convinced how well Sauron's identity was known, such that people could realise the following people were actually the same person:
1. The person who had waged a great war against Eregion
2. The person who had set himself up as the 'King of Men' in Middle-earth, with his chief stronghold in Mordor
3. The person who had given Rings to Men and Dwarves (they might not have even known at the time that anyone other than them had Rings; we don't know the circumstances in which Sauron distributed them. Did he just show up one day or did he do it publicly?)
4. The Lieutenant of Morgoth who had suspiciously disappeared at the end of the First Age.

How long might it have taken for people to draw these connections? We as readers operate from the convenient position of reading at the end of the Third Age, when all of these puzzles had been figured out.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

But there is no reason for the proud Smiths of Eregion to craft rings for the use of Mortal Men or Dwarves, and there was no particular reason for them to stop making Great Rings until they bored of the effort. After all, they were Noldor, and it was Art. Useful Art, but Art. Why did they make so many? I don’t know, but I think you might as well as ask a famous painter why he continues to paint: He enjoys it. That’s what he does.

To the best of my knowledge, the Seven and the Nine were only delineated as such through the distribution of Sauron; the Elves never intended their use by Men or Dwarves at all. Perhaps they believed that sixteen Great Rings was a useful number for their plans of preserving and beautifying Middle-earth. That being said, I imagine they were probably convinced to produce this number of Rings by Sauron, who had probably already calculated how many Rings he would need to most effectively subjugate the world, and he told them some convenient lie for why sixteen was a good number. That being said, he reckoned without the Three, so perhaps before he seized the Great Rings the distribution plan was somewhat different, because presumably he would have needed to give a few of the Seven-and-Nine to Elves.