Galadriel and Celeborn

[ArcusCalion]

How about:

and beyond Duin Daer <editorial movement and east of the Ered Lindon> the Noldor seldom came{, nor ever east of Ered Lindon} while their realm lasted.

[Findegil]

About the proposed additions to the first age texts:
- The Noldor east of Ered Lindon: For this we settled on a different edited version in the thread about ‘Of Beleriand and its Realms’

- Celeborn in ‘Of the Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin’:
Yes I think we should include this, so we might better use the original source texts for the edit:

... Finrod had help of Dwarves in extending the underground fortress of Nargothrond. It is supposed originally to have been a hall of the Petty-dwarves (NG-EX-04.7{Nibinnogs}[Noegyth Nibin]), but the Great Dwarves despised these, and had no compunction in ousting them NG-EX-04.8{ - hence Mîm's special hatred for the Elves -} especially for great reward. Finrod had brought more treasure out of Tuna than any of the other princes.
>Yet Galadriel his sister dwelt NG-EX-04.9{never}[not] in Nargothrond, but remained in Doriath and received the love of Melian, and abode with her, and there learned great lore and wisdom concerning Middle-earth.> NG-EX-04.92<Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn In Doriath {she}Galadriel met Celeborn, grandson of Elmo the brother of Thingol> NG-EX-04.95<Shiboleth , whom she wedded later in Beleriand.> NG-EX-04.97<Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn Elmo{ – a shadowy figure about whom nothing is told save that he} was the younger brother of Elwë (Thingol) and Olwë, and was {"}beloved of Elwë with whom he remained.{" (}Elmo's son was named Galadhon, and his sons were Celeborn and Galathil; Galathil was the father of Nimloth, who wedded Dior Thingol's Heir and was the mother of Elwing. By this genealogy Celeborn was a kinsman of Galadriel, the grand-daughter of Olwë of Alqualondë.
> NG-EX-05 <LQ2 Now Turgon remembered rather the City set upon a Hill, Tirion the fair with its Tower and Tree, and he found not what he sought, and returned to {Nivrost}[Nevrast], and sat at peace in Vinyamar by the shore. …

- Celeborn as kinsmen of Nimloth: This is already include under the editorial maker RD-EX-66

- Celeborn escaping the sack of Doriath: I think this we should tell in retrospective, as we do with the story of Galadriel leaving Beleriand before the end of the First Age.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

Hello everybody, it is again a very long time since the last posts in this part of the Forum. As ArcusCalion utter in private communication the wish to go on with the project, I can’t resist that urge any longer and so I think it its best to start up again with the discussion of the history of Galadriel and Celeborn, since they are key-figures in the history of the early Second Age in Middle-Earth.
I still work from the collection of source texts given in the first post of this thread and still use the reference number A) to K) established in that post. It might be necessary to add farther sources. (I have seen Galins comment about ‘certain statements from Words, Phrases, and Passages’, but I did not yet look up what he meant by this.) If it becomes necessary, I would add such sources at their chronological place and indicate them with a second letter in small type.
But for now with the sources as collected, I come to the following corrected and extended timeline listing:
- Galadriel is born in Tirion
- Celeborn is born to the son of Elmo, brother of Thingol
- Feanor covets Galadriels hair / unfreindlines between them
- Galadriel plans to go to Middlee-earth, dwells for a time in Aqualondë. She was prepairing the question to Manwë for leave, when the rebellion of the Noldor started.
- Rebellion of the Noldor, Galadiriel is the only women among the debating princes
- Kinslaying: Galadriel fights Feanor in defense of the Swanhaven
- leads the Noldor across the ice
- She goes to Doriath to dwell with Melian
- Meets Celeborn and falls in love / marries
- visits Nargothrond
- journeys over the mountains with Celeborn (text D, but see next point)
- Galadriel crosses the Hitheaglir alone (text C, while Celeborn returns to Doriath, see next point)
- Celeborn escapes the fall of Doriath (text H, probably we have to add this in the appropriate chapter)
- Galadriel hears late of the summons of Eönwë (text K) and returns to Beleriand (where we would suppose Celeborn is meet again).
- accepts proudly the ban set on her return by the Valar partly because Celeborn is not willing to leave Middle-earth (text A & H)
- ‘In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women.’ (text B)
- Galadriel crosses Ered Lindon with Celeborn and they become Lord and Lady of all the Elves of Eriador. (text A & H)
- Galadriel goes together with Celeborn to Eregion (text A & H)
- Galadriel has contact to Lorien (text H)
- revolt of Celebrimbor, Galadriel leaves Eregion and goes to Lorien, Celeborn stayes in Eregion (text H)
- The War of Sauron against Eregion: Celebron leads a sortie and joins his forces to Elronds, they establish Imladris. Galadriel remains in Lorien. (text H)
- After the War Galadriel joins Celeborn in Imladris (text H), the first White Council is held in Imladris. Celeborn and Galadriel depart to Lorien to ‘fortified it against any further attempts of Sauron to cross the Anduin.’ They ‘passed through Moria with a considerable following of Noldorin exiles and dwelt for many years in Lórien.’ (text E)
- Galadriel goes then to Lindon, since ‘Celeborn rejoined Galadriel in Lindon’. (text E)
- Celeborn and Galadriel return to Lorien (text E, ‘To Lórien Celeborn and Galadriel returned twice before the Last Alliance and the end of the Second Age’, first time after the White Council, second time here)
- After a sojourn in Imladris they both go to Belfalas. (text H, this is debatable, but otherwise we have no idea where the couple staid at the end of the Second and start of the Thrid Age.)
- ‘But during the Third Age Galadriel became filled with foreboding, and with Celeborn she journeyed to Lórien and stayed there long with Amroth’. (text E)
- ‘After long journeys of enquiry in Rhovanion, from Gondor and the borders of Mordor to Thranduil in the north, Celeborn and Galadriel passed over the mountains to Imladris, and there dwelt for many years’. (text E)
- In 1981 TA Galadriel and Celeborn return to Lorien after the loss of Amroth and take up the rule there. (text E and text H)

Up to the end of the First Age this was nearly fully discussed. Only an addition to the effect of Celeborn being mentioned during the Fall of Doriath is new.
If the rest will be fully covered by our text is not so clear, but we should discuss here what our assumptions are and use that as a kind of guideline. That said we must as a matter of fact not come to full agreement about the timeline list, even so that would be great. If the texts we produce can be ambiguity enough to allow all timeline list we sought possible that is fully sufficient. But for that we need of course to know what are the timeline lists look like that each of us has in mind.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: As often before my drafts do as yet not fully cover every development made in this post. But I will not start to change them, before we did not come to some kind of conclusion here. Anyhow, even if I would not have to change anything, still all changes or text constructions in the private drafts have to be numbered and commented and the texts reduced to copy right friendly amount before posting. So please don’t calculate with a fast upcoming of that material.

[ArcusCalion]

Greetings! As to the first post that addition is splendid and I'm so glad we don't have to use the scantier version from the Sil77, so thank you for finding that!

As to the timeline, as you say, we have been in agreement until the end of the first age. Going forward, as any person who has studied these things knows, their movements quickly become vague and difficult to follow, but I think that is ok. Like you say, much of their movement is simply implied, and we will not need to actually discuss it in our drafts. For instance, Galadriel crossing over the blue mountains before the sack of Doriath is most likely not something we will include in the draft, simply because there is no textual version of this, it is merely extrapolated from her comments in FotR.

- journeys over the mountains with Celeborn (text D, but see next point)
- Galadriel crosses the Hitheaglir alone (text C, while Celeborn returns to Doriath, see next point)
- Celeborn escapes the fall of Doriath (text H, probably we have to add this in the appropriate chapter)
- Galadriel hears late of the summons of Eönwë (text K) and returns to Beleriand (where we would suppose Celeborn is meet again).

These points here are (as far as I know) unable to be included in drafts, because we have no texts to use for it, as Tolkien never wrote about it. If he did and I have forgotten about the text, my apologies, and we may need to discuss it further. As to the Timeline, I will heartily concede that you know far more than I about the contradictions in these events, and to my eyes this timeline looks serviceable, and is certainly good enough to use as a basis of drafts going forward. I think it will be easier to see any issues with it when we review the drafts themselves. Therefore, at this time, I am in agreement with the timeline, but as we begin posting drafts and reviewing them, I may raise objections.

[Findegil]

Nice, then I will look trough my drafts an see if they still fit to these timeline list.

By the way I have found that I did already collect the articles from Words,Phrases & Passages in The Lord of the Rings that are concerned with Galadriel, Celeborn, Celebrimbor, Eregion and Lothlorien. And re-reading them I think I as well found the passage that Galin meant would suggest that Galadriel and Celeborn are out as founders of Eregion. So I will prepair these texts for posting as sources here. But it will take some time. Some of the articles are long.

After that we might discuss that special case, but I am still inclined to let the story of Galadriel and Celeborn as founder stand, as well based on a sentence from the same source.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

What are the entries you mean? I can check my copy and see if I have any opinions to offer.

[gondowe]

Hello everybody. Nice that again is resurrected the forum section.
First of all repeat that I have no access to my books and material and only write from memory, but I share this for if I can help.

The WPaP text is not earlier than the UT texts? Anyway, the founders of Eregion could be Galadriel and Celeborn as well as Celebrimbor, and later remains Celebrimbor as Lord of Eregion.

But turning to the movements of G and C. Evidently they are very difficult to follow, but the temporal line of Findegil, is, for me, correct.

And for the first age could be inserted in the texts, in my opinion, with few alterations.
-First using a alter in the sentence in Of the realms of Beleriand stated above.
-Second inserting at the end of OtRoD a sentence that Celeborn escaped from its ruin.
-Third at the end ot the QS in the subsection Of the passing of the Elves inserting a compilation of the K text of Findegil... and there only with an invented clarification of few words that previously Celeborn had returned to Doriath (for me is the only way and so I had done it.)
-Then in the Second age, when Galadriel is said that contacted with Lindorinand clarificate with a sentence from Findegil's text D (I think) that she had passed across the mountains before the end of the first age.

Greetings