Tidbits of Curiosity

[Urwen]

Anyway, this brings me to my next question. There are some theories that his fall didn't kill him at all. What do you think?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Anyway, this brings me to my next question. There are some theories that his fall didn't kill him at all. What do you think?

"Great was the fall of his body, and it smote Amon Gwareth three times ere it pitched in the midmost of the flames."

You're right that it doesn't actually say that he dies (just that his name has 'gone out in shame'). But, I mean... that sounds pretty deadly.

It is possible that Elven toughness plus cleverly-wrought mail might protect someone against a short fall (as Frodo's mithril protected him against a spear-thrust), so the question becomes: how tall are the walls of Gondolin, and how tall is Amon Gwareth?

The FoG tells us that Tuor and Voronwe reached the bottom of the stairs 'after a day's light march', and that they reached top at 'the last sunlight'. We know it's a long stair, but how long?

Perhaps it's easier to come at this the other way: if Maeglin struck the rock three times, that makes for four impacts total. Assuming he comes to a complete vertical halt each time, and assuming all four impacts are evenly spaced, how far can each fall be before an impact is unsurvivable?

A quick Google turns up the fact that 90% of 80-foot falls are fatal to humans. Under Earth's gravity, that's about a 2-second drop, at which point you'll be moving at about 40 mph. (That ties in with how dangerous a 40mph car crash is to a pedestrian.) If we assume that 4 such impacts would kill even an elf, we end up with a maximum survivable height of Gondolin plus Amon Gwareth of 320 ft. That's significantly shorter than a large cathedral; Amon Gwareth would hardly be worth mentioning if it were that small! So the hill must be taller, the falls lomger, the impacts harder... yeah, I don't think Maeglin's coming out of this one alive.

hS

[Urwen]

You're very thorough.....I like it.


In fact, part of the reason I made this was so I could discuss things with you.


I am also curious about what sort of punishment he'd get. There aren't many details about the punishments in Halls of Mandos, so I'd like you to tackle this one.


This is my last question regarding him, at least for now. I might throw some additional ones later, should they spring to mind.


P.S: Recent comments have made me change my signature.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

"Great was the fall of his body, and it smote Amon Gwareth three times ere it pitched in the midmost of the flames."

You're right that it doesn't actually say that he dies (just that his name has 'gone out in shame'). But, I mean... that sounds pretty deadly.

It is possible that Elven toughness plus cleverly-wrought mail might protect someone against a short fall (as Frodo's mithril protected him against a spear-thrust), so the question becomes: how tall are the walls of Gondolin, and how tall is Amon Gwareth?

The FoG tells us that Tuor and Voronwe reached the bottom of the stairs 'after a day's light march', and that they reached top at 'the last sunlight'. We know it's a long stair, but how long?

Perhaps it's easier to come at this the other way: if Maeglin struck the rock three times, that makes for four impacts total. Assuming he comes to a complete vertical halt each time, and assuming all four impacts are evenly spaced, how far can each fall be before an impact is unsurvivable?

A quick Google turns up the fact that 90% of 80-foot falls are fatal to humans. Under Earth's gravity, that's about a 2-second drop, at which point you'll be moving at about 40 mph. (That ties in with how dangerous a 40mph car crash is to a pedestrian.) If we assume that 4 such impacts would kill even an elf, we end up with a maximum survivable height of Gondolin plus Amon Gwareth of 320 ft. That's significantly shorter than a large cathedral; Amon Gwareth would hardly be worth mentioning if it were that small! So the hill must be taller, the falls lomger, the impacts harder... yeah, I don't think Maeglin's coming out of this one alive.

hS

Who thinks of what, but the medical student in me wants to assess the extent to which the Elves' health and biological resilience applied to internal organ damage...

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Who thinks of what, but the medical student in me wants to assess the extent to which the Elves' health and biological resilience applied to internal organ damage...

You ain't experimenting on Maeglin, or on la familia. Or on any of my favorites. Not for as long as I stand.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Who thinks of what, but the medical student in me wants to assess the extent to which the Elves' health and biological resilience applied to internal organ damage...

Do it! I'm not sure what the best evidence regarding blunt-force trauma is... Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth, maybe?

Originally Posted by Urwen

You're very thorough.....I like it.

In fact, part of the reason I made this was so I could discuss things with you.

Well, I'm always happy to talk... the only problem is sorting my wild theorising from the facts!

Originally Posted by Urwen

I am also curious about what sort of punishment he'd get. There aren't many details about the punishments in Halls of Mandos, so I'd like you to tackle this one.

Hmm... punishment? You're right that the Silm doesn't go i to the details of the Halls much, but BoLT tells us a lot more:

"There Mandos spake their doom, and there they waited in the darkness, dreaming of their past deeds, until such time as he appointed when they might again... go forth to laugh and sing again."

There's no word here of punishment, except in the length of their stay; it's widely asserted that Feanor is never getting out, but the Silm tells us that Finrod left very quickly. That's Mandos' judgement: how long you have to stay there.

The Prophecy of Mandos confirms that this is actually a punishment, in the Silm: "There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you." But the implication seems to be that the only direct punitive action is locking you up with your memories of what you did - unfiltered, one assumes, by the delusions of righteousness we create in life.

Interestingly, there is punishment of the dead in BoLT - but only of Men. Fui, who's kind of a dark fusion of Vaire and Nienna, judges them in her hall that's even grimmer than Mandos. Some she sends on to Mandos (for reasons unspecified), some get to go live in Valmar, most she sends down to camp on the plains of Arvalin until the End of Days - but some she straight up kicks back over the mountains to be captured by Melkor.

Fortunately, this whole idea was entirely rejected by the time of the Silm; but Mandos as a place of waiting and reflection seems to have remained.

One idea I haven't been able to source tonight is that some Elven shades might never reach Mandos, but be captured by Morgoth. I know I've seen it bandied about; if it holds true in the later canon, then the only named defector to Morgoth would probably be a good candidate - and we can assume that the Dark Lord wouldn't be inclined to treat his new toy gently...

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Do it! I'm not sure what the best evidence regarding blunt-force trauma is... Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth, maybe?



Well, I'm always happy to talk... the only problem is sorting my wild theorising from the facts!



Hmm... punishment? You're right that the Silm doesn't go i to the details of the Halls much, but BoLT tells us a lot more:

"There Mandos spake their doom, and there they waited in the darkness, dreaming of their past deeds, until such time as he appointed when they might again... go forth to laugh and sing again."

There's no word here of punishment, except in the length of their stay; it's widely asserted that Feanor is never getting out, but the Silm tells us that Finrod left very quickly. That's Mandos' judgement: how long you have to stay there.

The Prophecy of Mandos confirms that this is actually a punishment, in the Silm: "There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you." But the implication seems to be that the only direct punitive action is locking you up with your memories of what you did - unfiltered, one assumes, by the delusions of righteousness we create in life.

Interestingly, there is punishment of the dead in BoLT - but only of Men. Fui, who's kind of a dark fusion of Vaire and Nienna, judges them in her hall that's even grimmer than Mandos. Some she sends on to Mandos (for reasons unspecified), some get to go live in Valmar, most she sends down to camp on the plains of Arvalin until the End of Days - but some she straight up kicks back over the mountains to be captured by Melkor.

Fortunately, this whole idea was entirely rejected by the time of the Silm; but Mandos as a place of waiting and reflection seems to have remained.

One idea I haven't been able to source tonight is that some Elven shades might never reach Mandos, but be captured by Morgoth. I know I've seen it bandied about; if it holds true in the later canon, then the only named defector to Morgoth would probably be a good candidate - and we can assume that the Dark Lord wouldn't be inclined to treat his new toy gently...

hS

A certain fanfiction writer posited that dead souls can be counter-summoned by Morgoth to do his bidding. What if he did that with Maeglin?


Oh, and also, I think that if there were psychiatrists in middle Earth, several individuals could have benefit from them (Turin, Nienor, Maeglin etc)


Most notably Turin, for obvious reasons.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

A certain fanfiction writer posited that dead souls can be counter-summoned by Morgoth to do his bidding. What if he did that with Maeglin?

What kind of bidding are we talking about? What can a soul actually do?

But generally I don't think Maeglin would be very happy about it. He might demand some favours in repayment for his betrayal though.

Originally Posted by Urwen

Oh, and also, I think that if there were psychiatrists in middle Earth, several individuals could have benefit from them (Turin, Nienor, Maeglin etc)

Put Morwen on some antidepressants, for god's sake!

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

the only named defector to Morgoth would probably be a good candidate - and we can assume that the Dark Lord wouldn't be inclined to treat his new toy gently...

hS

Who are you referring to here?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

You ain't experimenting on Maeglin, or on la familia. Or on any of my favorites. Not for as long as I stand.

Needs no experiment, just an ultrasound machine after his fall...

Occasionally my brain runs on autopilot down familiar tracts, and I end up in weird places. Like I may start wondering how quickly Hurin's kidney function would tank if Morgoth didn't let him drink, and I have to remind myself that creatinine clearance doesn't apply to humans who are magically put into a state of trance-like existence for many many years. Or I read about the Houses of Healing and start debating which patient is the most acidotic, and remind myself that the Black Breath is not supposed to be explicable by physiology to begin with. In some stories it's fun to diagnose the characters, but Tolkien's books are not meant for that.

But what I wonder about most in the fantasy universes is how the heart functions are split between the two Time Lord hearts, how the cardiovascular system is connected, and how electrical activity and contractility are coordinated. This is not just my brain reacting to trigger words, this is a legitimate question. Does no one else wonder what the two-heart physiology is like?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Needs no experiment, just an ultrasound machine after his fall...

Occasionally my brain runs on autopilot down familiar tracts, and I end up in weird places. Like I may start wondering how quickly Hurin's kidney function would tank if Morgoth didn't let him drink, and I have to remind myself that creatinine clearance doesn't apply to humans who are magically put into a state of trance-like existence for many many years. Or I read about the Houses of Healing and start debating which patient is the most acidotic, and remind myself that the Black Breath is not supposed to be explicable by physiology to begin with. In some stories it's fun to diagnose the characters, but Tolkien's books are not meant for that.

I am glad other people think these things. I think it was Maedhros who had me wondering if you could starve an elf to death.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I am glad other people think these things. I think it was Maedhros who had me wondering if you could starve an elf to death.

Thank you!!! So it's not just me.