Tidbits of Curiosity

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I just realized that Turin and Tuor have something in common: they both killed an Elf (or Elves, in Turin's case). I feel that this is an interesting parallel.

That's really interesting! Are there... any other Men known to have pulled that off? (Don't say 'Beren', that's just mean, he didn't intend to... though he was on his way to killing Curufin until Luthien called him off.)

Originally Posted by Urwen

Also, is it just me, or is Tuor glaring at Maeglin in this picture?

Maybe he realized the truth early on?

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think Maeglin's earlier attempts at professing love to Idril would have been more overt. But here Maeglin looks more like Grima might after whispering something nasty but selfless sounding to Theoden. He just has this smug plotting look on his face.

It's really interesting to compare Maeglin's attempts at swaying his king with Grima's. Maeglin managed to keep the defenses of Gondolin relatively low, whereas Rohan never seems to have disarmed; it was all Wormtongue could do to keep Eomer and Theodred from going on the attack! But while Grima was able to get his rival for power (Eomer) exiled, Maeglin couldn't keep his from being given lordship of a House and the hand of the princess. (Also, it seems like Maeglin's obstruction predates his fall to the Dark, whereas Grima's was only at the urging of Saruman.)

Tuor's mistrust was probably... helped by the part where his wife the Seer said 'yeah, I've just had a vision of Cousin M throwing our baby in a fire, that's probably bad'. Idril really is the driving force for Good during the Fall of Gondolin, despite how little attention she gets.

hS

[Urwen]

I believe that she offered her kindness to him, him being an orphan and all, and that's where his love for her comes. He was emotionally stunted, and mistook familial love for romantic one.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I believe that she offered her kindness to him, him being an orphan and all, and that's where his love for her comes. He was emotionally stunted, and mistook familial love for romantic one.

Many years ago, I (not seriously) proposed making a Fall of Gondolin musical. Maeglin's first solo would have been entitled "A Girl Who's Not My Mother".

Oh look! A girl who's not my mother!
Amazing! Awesome! I had no idea such a thing existed!
What's this? A girl who's not my mother!
And now I must pursue her, for
This girl -- is not -- my motherrrrr!

I think it'd be a big hit.

(This is possibly unfair to Eol, who may actually have had a household of some kind. But frankly he deserves it.)

I think I agree with your thought, though - it's the sort of thing that happens all the time even today. "She smiled at me - she must want to date me!"

Originally Posted by Urwen

Apart from the two of them, there were none.

Interesting! So, did Tolkien consciously decide that the only Men capable of killing one of the Elder Children were his three great heroes (counting Beren here, because... well, he could have)? Or is it just the fact that they're the only Men who had opportunity to fight Elves while also being the focus of a story?

Honourable mention has to go to Dior Eluchil, who killed Celegorm, thereby in part avenging the kidnapping of his mother years before. But it's implied that Dior had chosen Elven immortality, and...

... huh. Come to think of it, Dior was born to two mortal parents. When that happened to Elros' kids, they were just mortal by default. The evidence suggests, then, that the second King of Doriath may well have been a mortal Man, and his children only regained their immortal legacy through Nimloth their mother. So we can potentially add him to the list and make four.

hS

[Urwen]

Do you think Ulmo foresaw his treachery, and it was him that Ulmo/Tuor were warning Turgon against?



Re: Your question: Honestly, I think that only Turin and Tuor should count as having accomplished such a feat.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

That's really interesting! Are there... any other Men known to have pulled that off?

Apart from the two of them, there were none.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Tuor's mistrust was probably... helped by the part where his wife the Seer said 'yeah, I've just had a vision of Cousin M throwing our baby in a fire, that's probably bad'. Idril really is the driving force for Good during the Fall of Gondolin, despite how little attention she gets.

hS

Do you think Ulmo foresaw his treachery, and it was him that Ulmo/Tuor were warning Turgon against?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Do you think Ulmo foresaw his treachery, and it was him that Ulmo/Tuor were warning Turgon against?

It's possible, but I've never got the impression the Valar could foresee the actions of specific people. Ulmo seems to have been responding more to the Doom of Mandos, and the fact that everything the Noldor built was prophesied to fall.

"Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea."

Re: Your question: Honestly, I think that only Turin and Tuor should count as having accomplished such a feat.

Well, Beren is specifically said to have been in the middle of killing Curufin when Luthien told him to stop... and why exclude Dior?

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

It's possible, but I've never got the impression the Valar could foresee the actions of specific people. Ulmo seems to have been responding more to the Doom of Mandos, and the fact that everything the Noldor built was prophesied to fall.

"Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea."



Well, Beren is specifically said to have been in the middle of killing Curufin when Luthien told him to stop... and why exclude Dior?

hS

It's just an opinion I have on things. You're welcome to have a different one, of course.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

It's just an opinion I have on things. You're welcome to have a different one, of course.

I should certainly hope so! I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on the question of whether Dior was mortal.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I should certainly hope so! I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on the question of whether Dior was mortal.

hS

Dior is not one of the topics which interests me, so I never dug deeper on that.

[Urwen]

Do you think that Morgoth intended for Maeglin to die?


He made sure Maeglin was safe from his own forces, but he gave him no safety from the people of Gondolin. Meaning he might have anticipated that Maeglin would die either way, at the hands of his own allies no less.


Of course, the question is: what did he hope to accomplish by having his own loyalist killed?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Do you think that Morgoth intended for Maeglin to die?

He made sure Maeglin was safe from his own forces, but he gave him no safety from the people of Gondolin. Meaning he might have anticipated that Maeglin would die either way, at the hands of his own allies no less.

Of course, the question is: what did he hope to accomplish by having his own loyalist killed?

On the basis of no evidence at all, I'm going to say yes, he fully intended for Maeglin to die. I tend to view Morgoth as the ultimate nihilist - he'll promise anything he cares to, but feels no obligation to keep those promises. Sauron does this too, promising Gorlim his life back to betray Barahir and then offing him anyway.

Did he keep Maeglin safe from his forces? Maeglin was safe, but he never left the city, and I don't remember him running into any Orcs or Balrogs in the FoG. It's entirely possible that if he'd encountered Gothmog, he would have been skewered even while declaring his loyalty to the Iron Crown.

Like I say, this isn't an evidenced position, and I'm more than willing to shift it if you know of source text I've not considered.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

On the basis of no evidence at all, I'm going to say yes, he fully intended for Maeglin to die. I tend to view Morgoth as the ultimate nihilist - he'll promise anything he cares to, but feels no obligation to keep those promises. Sauron does this too, promising Gorlim his life back to betray Barahir and then offing him anyway.

Did he keep Maeglin safe from his forces? Maeglin was safe, but he never left the city, and I don't remember him running into any Orcs or Balrogs in the FoG. It's entirely possible that if he'd encountered Gothmog, he would have been skewered even while declaring his loyalty to the Iron Crown.

Like I say, this isn't an evidenced position, and I'm more than willing to shift it if you know of source text I've not considered.

hS

There isn't evidence per se. Presumably, he gave Maeglin a token he was to show should he encounter any of Morgoth's troops, and they'd leave him alone in turn. But this is just a fan theory I stumbled across. People on another forum say that Maeglin was an agent of Morgoth, who harbored fear and hatred for all Eldar, Maeglin included.


If we suppose this to be the case, then the question 'what did he hope to accomplish with that'?


Also, you never answered my earlier question: Could Morgoth have counter-summoned Maeglin's spirit to do his bidding?


Re: Dior: I thought about this, and I think he was immortal, which means there were three mortals who succeeded in slaying an Elda. (And no, Beren doesn't count, since he didn't actually succeed.)