Tidbits of Curiosity

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

A little kindness wouldn't hurt.

The Valar kind of gave Men the short end of the stick. Elves got the attention, and the guidance, and a cozy corner in the house; it was their choice to do what they did. Men never had so much love or such a choice. Their fate is not bound to this world so what, the Valar have no responsibility for them? They get stuck with Morgoth and just have to deal with it. House of Hador gets the sucks even more than the rest. And Hurin even argues theology with Morgoth, he stands by what he has learned about the Valar from the Elves. Is it not at least slightly decent to give that family some recognition? We're not talking about judgement or jurisdiction, just a kind word (or maybe even a "thank you", if not an "I'm sorry"?).

Not to mention that Turin may have the power to one day vanquish Morgoth and you want him to not hate you ^.^

I think there is reason to hope for exactly this. Obviously the idea of Men going to Nienna's halls for judgement is out, but consider this:

-Tolkien Gateway gives, unsourced, the statement that the name 'Halls of Awaiting' refers to the fact that Men and Elves await their different fates in Mandos.

-The Valaquenta tells us that 'all those who wait in Mandos cry to' Nienna, 'for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom'.

We know how much Tolkien liked to keep and adapt old ideas rather than just throwing them out; it's perfectly reasonable to think that, where once Fui was the cruel judge of mortals, now Nienna is their kind listening ear and shoulder to cry on, to help them get their heads in order before they head on Out.

Shades of Death of the Endless here, I know, but in a setting where even Feanor just gets put in permanent time-out, I think we have to assume Turin and Nienor at least get a hug.

hS

[Urwen]

I just realized that Turin and Tuor have something in common: they both killed an Elf (or Elves, in Turin's case). I feel that this is an interesting parallel.

[Urwen]

Also, is it just me, or is Tuor glaring at Maeglin in this picture?





Maybe he realized the truth early on?


(Image credit to Kazuki-MENDOU)

[Galadriel55]

I think Maeglin's earlier attempts at professing love to Idril would have been more overt. But here Maeglin looks more like Grima might after whispering something nasty but selfless sounding to Theoden. He just has this smug plotting look on his face.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I just realized that Turin and Tuor have something in common: they both killed an Elf (or Elves, in Turin's case). I feel that this is an interesting parallel.

That's really interesting! Are there... any other Men known to have pulled that off? (Don't say 'Beren', that's just mean, he didn't intend to... though he was on his way to killing Curufin until Luthien called him off.)

Originally Posted by Urwen

Also, is it just me, or is Tuor glaring at Maeglin in this picture?

Maybe he realized the truth early on?

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think Maeglin's earlier attempts at professing love to Idril would have been more overt. But here Maeglin looks more like Grima might after whispering something nasty but selfless sounding to Theoden. He just has this smug plotting look on his face.

It's really interesting to compare Maeglin's attempts at swaying his king with Grima's. Maeglin managed to keep the defenses of Gondolin relatively low, whereas Rohan never seems to have disarmed; it was all Wormtongue could do to keep Eomer and Theodred from going on the attack! But while Grima was able to get his rival for power (Eomer) exiled, Maeglin couldn't keep his from being given lordship of a House and the hand of the princess. (Also, it seems like Maeglin's obstruction predates his fall to the Dark, whereas Grima's was only at the urging of Saruman.)

Tuor's mistrust was probably... helped by the part where his wife the Seer said 'yeah, I've just had a vision of Cousin M throwing our baby in a fire, that's probably bad'. Idril really is the driving force for Good during the Fall of Gondolin, despite how little attention she gets.

hS

[Urwen]

I believe that she offered her kindness to him, him being an orphan and all, and that's where his love for her comes. He was emotionally stunted, and mistook familial love for romantic one.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I believe that she offered her kindness to him, him being an orphan and all, and that's where his love for her comes. He was emotionally stunted, and mistook familial love for romantic one.

Many years ago, I (not seriously) proposed making a Fall of Gondolin musical. Maeglin's first solo would have been entitled "A Girl Who's Not My Mother".

Oh look! A girl who's not my mother!
Amazing! Awesome! I had no idea such a thing existed!
What's this? A girl who's not my mother!
And now I must pursue her, for
This girl -- is not -- my motherrrrr!

I think it'd be a big hit.

(This is possibly unfair to Eol, who may actually have had a household of some kind. But frankly he deserves it.)

I think I agree with your thought, though - it's the sort of thing that happens all the time even today. "She smiled at me - she must want to date me!"

Originally Posted by Urwen

Apart from the two of them, there were none.

Interesting! So, did Tolkien consciously decide that the only Men capable of killing one of the Elder Children were his three great heroes (counting Beren here, because... well, he could have)? Or is it just the fact that they're the only Men who had opportunity to fight Elves while also being the focus of a story?

Honourable mention has to go to Dior Eluchil, who killed Celegorm, thereby in part avenging the kidnapping of his mother years before. But it's implied that Dior had chosen Elven immortality, and...

... huh. Come to think of it, Dior was born to two mortal parents. When that happened to Elros' kids, they were just mortal by default. The evidence suggests, then, that the second King of Doriath may well have been a mortal Man, and his children only regained their immortal legacy through Nimloth their mother. So we can potentially add him to the list and make four.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

That's really interesting! Are there... any other Men known to have pulled that off?

Apart from the two of them, there were none.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Tuor's mistrust was probably... helped by the part where his wife the Seer said 'yeah, I've just had a vision of Cousin M throwing our baby in a fire, that's probably bad'. Idril really is the driving force for Good during the Fall of Gondolin, despite how little attention she gets.

hS

Do you think Ulmo foresaw his treachery, and it was him that Ulmo/Tuor were warning Turgon against?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Do you think Ulmo foresaw his treachery, and it was him that Ulmo/Tuor were warning Turgon against?

It's possible, but I've never got the impression the Valar could foresee the actions of specific people. Ulmo seems to have been responding more to the Doom of Mandos, and the fact that everything the Noldor built was prophesied to fall.

"Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea."

Re: Your question: Honestly, I think that only Turin and Tuor should count as having accomplished such a feat.

Well, Beren is specifically said to have been in the middle of killing Curufin when Luthien told him to stop... and why exclude Dior?

hS

[Urwen]

Any thoughts on this?

Originally Posted by Urwen

I just realized that Turin and Tuor have something in common: they both killed an Elf (or Elves, in Turin's case). I feel that this is an interesting parallel.