Tidbits of Curiosity

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Question for everyone: how on earth did Morgoth not realize that Gondolin must be in the one patch of land he can't get to?

We're told that before the Bragollach and Nirnaeth his spies couldn't pass beyond the borders of some elven territories, so it's possible that Gondolin lay somewhere beyond - but that wouldn't make much sense since Turgon was known to have a separate kingdom, and one that none of the other Elves knew about. On the other hand, there's this patch of mountains, that spies can't get through either because of the Eagles and other things. After the Nirnaeth it should have been obvious; the only question would be a suitable entrance. Morgoth really shouldn't have needed Hurin to unwittingly give away the general location. He should have known that already.

What land? That's a mountain range! And I doubt Orcs are much good at accurate mapping, so the fact that there was room for a city in the middle wouldn't have been at all obvious. Check out this map of the Old World to see how tricky accurate maps can be (can you even recognise Italy?), and then consider that on a flat world, you can't get any location information from the sun or stars: it's literally all 'how far have I walked and in what direction?'.

Bear in mind also that the other Hidden Kingdom, Nargothrond, was almost certainly known by Morgoth to be underground (he must have taken captives who knew of it, after all), just like Menegroth. The obvious assumption would be that Turgon had done the same thing, somewhere. The other elves didn't dig into mountains, though - and even if the thought that Turgon might be taking after himself and the dwarves had occurred to Morgoth, he'd probably have looked at the Ered Wethrin rather than clear across Sirion.

Or Brethil, which was steadfastly defended by the House of Haleth. Surely they must be hiding something more interesting than just a Mortal rabble in there?

The one he actually should have spotted is the Havens of Sirion. Big M had the run of the entirety of Beleriand west of Amon Ereb, and yet the Sons of Feanor still beat him to the Silmaril? Did he just give up and go home after taking out Gondolin?

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

What land? That's a mountain range! And I doubt Orcs are much good at accurate mapping, so the fact that there was room for a city in the middle wouldn't have been at all obvious. Check out this map of the Old World to see how tricky accurate maps can be (can you even recognise Italy?), and then consider that on a flat world, you can't get any location information from the sun or stars: it's literally all 'how far have I walked and in what direction?'.

Bear in mind also that the other Hidden Kingdom, Nargothrond, was almost certainly known by Morgoth to be underground (he must have taken captives who knew of it, after all), just like Menegroth. The obvious assumption would be that Turgon had done the same thing, somewhere. The other elves didn't dig into mountains, though - and even if the thought that Turgon might be taking after himself and the dwarves had occurred to Morgoth, he'd probably have looked at the Ered Wethrin rather than clear across Sirion.

Or Brethil, which was steadfastly defended by the House of Haleth. Surely they must be hiding something more interesting than just a Mortal rabble in there?

The one he actually should have spotted is the Havens of Sirion. Big M had the run of the entirety of Beleriand west of Amon Ereb, and yet the Sons of Feanor still beat him to the Silmaril? Did he just give up and go home after taking out Gondolin?

hS

Okay, I guess that my replies will always be overshadowed by yours.....

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Okay, I guess that my replies will always be overshadowed by yours.....

I'm pretty sure people read up past the most recent comment. I certainly always do, and reply to anything that I feel I have something to say on. Given that your comment was a claim that Morgoth did know where Gondolin was, and my whole post was on the premise that he didn't, my only options for comments were 'I think you're wrong', or 'I think you're wrong and here's the reference to prove it'. Telling people flatly that they're wrong feels like stifling discussion, though.

For the record, though:

Originally Posted by The Silmarillion: Of the Ruin of Doriath

Yet there were ears that heard the words that Húrin spoke, and report of all came soon to the Dark Throne in the north; and Morgoth smiled, for he knew now clearly in what region Turgon dwelt, though because of the eagles no spy of his could yet come within sight of the land behind the Encircling Mountains. This was the first evil that the freedom of Húrin achieved.

Morgoth only found out where Gondolin was when Hurin gave it away; then, yes, he needed a traitor to tell him the way in and prepare the way.

If you're talking about the music thread: personally I just don't like watching videos very much, and am usually in a place (*cough*work*cough*) where doing so would be ill-advised. So barring a very persuasive post on why it's worth watching, I probably won't have anything to contribute over there. I think it's great that you posted it - I didn't even know that sub-forum existed! - but it's not something I'm interested in doing.

hS

[Huinesoron]

See above:

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

If you're talking about the music thread: personally I just don't like watching videos very much, and am usually in a place (*cough*work*cough*) where doing so would be ill-advised. So barring a very persuasive post on why it's worth watching, I probably won't have anything to contribute over there. I think it's great that you posted it - I didn't even know that sub-forum existed! - but it's not something I'm interested in doing.

EDIT: Response to a deleted post.

[Urwen]

Then I'll ask here, what I asked there, more or less: To what length would Beleg have gone for Turin's sake if he wasn't killed?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Then I'll ask here, what I asked there, more or less: To what length would Beleg have gone for Turin's sake if he wasn't killed?

I think Beleg would have gone with Turin all the way, to make sure Turin lived and that he stayed of the right moral path. But if Turin would stubbornly and irreversibly insist on following some morally questionable activity, it's possible Beleg would then leave him.

Basically I think Beleg would keep doing what he was doing before.

[Urwen]

Yes. I wish I had a friend like Beleg. That friendship was so good while it lasted.



By the way, you should read Kalevala. I think you'll find the main character of that poem interesting.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Okay, I guess that my replies will always be overshadowed by yours.....

Urwen, we read the responses from oldest to newest. It really doesn't matter who posted first. You don't have to have the last post on the thread to be seen.

I agree with you that he required help getting an army over the mountains, but I wonder more about where he thought Turgon could have been.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

What land? That's a mountain range! And I doubt Orcs are much good at accurate mapping, so the fact that there was room for a city in the middle wouldn't have been at all obvious. Check out this map of the Old World to see how tricky accurate maps can be (can you even recognise Italy?), and then consider that on a flat world, you can't get any location information from the sun or stars: it's literally all 'how far have I walked and in what direction?'.

Bear in mind also that the other Hidden Kingdom, Nargothrond, was almost certainly known by Morgoth to be underground (he must have taken captives who knew of it, after all), just like Menegroth. The obvious assumption would be that Turgon had done the same thing, somewhere. The other elves didn't dig into mountains, though - and even if the thought that Turgon might be taking after himself and the dwarves had occurred to Morgoth, he'd probably have looked at the Ered Wethrin rather than clear across Sirion.

Or Brethil, which was steadfastly defended by the House of Haleth. Surely they must be hiding something more interesting than just a Mortal rabble in there?

The one he actually should have spotted is the Havens of Sirion. Big M had the run of the entirety of Beleriand west of Amon Ereb, and yet the Sons of Feanor still beat him to the Silmaril? Did he just give up and go home after taking out Gondolin?

hS

How many options are there with a place where an entire kingdom can be hidden both from Morgoth and from other Elves? Because Morgoth would have known (from spies and captives) that the Elves themselves do not know where Turgon hid himself and his people. They can't live underground indefinitely, they have to come above ground for food and such occasionally at least, so they can't be entirely invisible in a land that can be reached by Morgoth's spies.

Ered Wethrin is out, because then Fingon's people would be aware of Turgon's people. Brethil surely couldn't be that well defended that no spies could get through - and especially after the Nirnaeth.

The one thing that would guide him away from the Echoriath is that he might have thought they were uninhabitable, impregnable, etc. That the Eagles were removing his spies because they found them annoying, not to protect something. But still - process of elimination. Hithlum fell, eastern Beleriand fell, Nargothrond fell - and Morgoth still needed Hurin to give him the location? Does process of elimination mean nothing to him?

i do agree about the Havens. Morgoth should have known where the Silmaril ended up, and it wouldn't have taken him much force to regain it.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

How many options are there with a place where an entire kingdom can be hidden both from Morgoth and from other Elves? Because Morgoth would have known (from spies and captives) that the Elves themselves do not know where Turgon hid himself and his people. They can't live underground indefinitely, they have to come above ground for food and such occasionally at least, so they can't be entirely invisible in a land that can be reached by Morgoth's spies.

Ered Wethrin is out, because then Fingon's people would be aware of Turgon's people. Brethil surely couldn't be that well defended that no spies could get through - and especially after the Nirnaeth.

The one thing that would guide him away from the Echoriath is that he might have thought they were uninhabitable, impregnable, etc. That the Eagles were removing his spies because they found them annoying, not to protect something. But still - process of elimination. Hithlum fell, eastern Beleriand fell, Nargothrond fell - and Morgoth still needed Hurin to give him the location? Does process of elimination mean nothing to him?

I would say: lots. Beleriand wasn't a particularly heavily-populated place. Turgon could have gone south - there's literally nothing south of Andram and east of the Nenning. He could have gone east - until the Sons of Feanor had to retreat, everything south of Estolad was pretty much empty. Heck, he could have stayed in Nevrast - apparently nobody ever bothered to go there until Tuor showed up! I really can't see any reason for Morgoth to assume that this lump of mountains, as opposed to any other (there's one above Ivrin, one at the joining of the Mountains of Mithrim and the Ered Wethrin, all the stuff around Rerir), simply had to be important.

My guess is that, until the Nirnaeth, Morgoth actually didn't think about Turgon at all. There might have been some murmuring about how the High King's son/brother (delete as temporally appropriate) vanished, but if some cowardly elf and his people chose to run off, what was that to the King of the World? It was only when Turgon suddenly appeared with a vast army that Morgoth had no idea was out there that he had to pay attention.

Morgoth knew that Turgon had appeared and retreated through the Pass of Sirion, which actually rules out a lot of places I've suggested. He probably picked up the name of Gondolin, and so knew that he was looking for the Hidden Rock (whatever that meant). And he knew that it could field at least ten thousand warriors. At that point... maybe he could have made the wild leap to 'hidden valley in the mountains'. But I still think 'somewhere off in the south' is more logical (like, say, the mouths of Sirion... )

hS

[Galadriel55]

The reason I ruled out a lot of places is 1) has to be where Morgoth's spies wouldn't see him - what keeps them from checking out all the other random lumps of rock? Nothing much, really; and 2) Turgon has to be close enough to be relevant. I mean sure, he could have even gone over the Ered Luin, but then he's less in the picture and less worrisome. He can't get into the play in time to change events; he has to be physically present on site to make a difference that would affect Morgoth.

(Again what no one realized is that Gondolin's importance was in making Earendil and not in their strength at all, but then no one has the same reader's knowledge as us, so they all assume that the way of defeating Morgoth must be through battle with him and through survival when battle is not possible).