Tidbits of Curiosity

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I also find it interesting that while there were quite a number of names that belonged to First Age Elves that were recycled in Second and Third Age. And yet, there were quite a number of names that weren't (Finrod, Maeglin, Aredhel, Idril, Penlod, Egalmoth, Salgant, Saeros, Elwe, Olwe, Elenwe etc.)

Lots of names were recycled by Numenorian Men, which used to belong to Men and Elves alike (as Nerwen's recent riddle proved). Do Elves recycle their names though? I'm interested to see if there's an example.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Lots of names were recycled by Numenorian Men, which used to belong to Men and Elves alike (as Nerwen's recent riddle proved). Do Elves recycle their names though? I'm interested to see if there's an example.

On the one hand, T once wrote "No...major character in the Elvish legends as reported in The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings has a name borne by another Elvish person of importance" (This was his reason for concluding Glorfindel of Gondolin and of Rivendell were one and the same). This does make sense, since even if you named your little Elfling after some dead Elvish hero, that dead Elf might come back.

On the other hand, T appears to have overlooked Galdor of Gondolin and Galdor of the Havens - unless either the latter Galdor was "of no importance," or if the original Galdor escaped the sack, made it to the Mouths of Sirion, and decided to hang out with Cirdan for the next 7000 years. But in that case, surely his buddy-reunion with Glorfindel would have been noted!

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Lots of names were recycled by Numenorian Men, which used to belong to Men and Elves alike (as Nerwen's recent riddle proved). Do Elves recycle their names though? I'm interested to see if there's an example.

I'm a bit late to this particular party but in my opinion, and generally speaking, Elves repeated names. Tolkien's late comment about the name Glorfindel has already been raised, but to repeat it here:

"At any rate what at first sight may seem the simplest solution must be abandoned: sc. that we have merely a reduplication of names, and that Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell were different persons. This repetition of so striking a name, though possible, would not be credible. No other major character in the Elvish legends as reported in The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings has a name born by another Elvish person of importance."

JRRT, Glorfindel II, The Peoples of Middle-Earth

In the margin JRRT also wrote: "Why not?" which in my opinion seems to refer to the "credible" part, and is arguably answered by the next sentence (as Christopher Tolkien appears to think as well). In addition, a Tolkienian note (same text) about the name Galdor reads:

"Galdor also appeared in The Fall of Gondolin, but the name is of a more simple and usual form [than Glorfindel] and might be repeated."

And back to the credible statement for a moment, in my opinion -- if this is indeed Tolkien's answer to "why not" -- well, let's just say I might respond with something like: "Well, not yet! That is, you can make it so."

Cough. That is, if I met JRRT in real life and could actually speak in his presence. And if I jumped that hurdle, I still dared to annoy him with such a response (unlikely, I think).



And this late comment raises the question of "importance" and "striking-ness" too, but in any case, we have other examples to possibly consider, some from JRRT's late writings.


Argon -- name often given by Sindar and Noldor in memory of Aracano's valour (The Shibboleth of Feanor)

Celebrimbor -- Sindarized form of Telerin Telperimpar -- said to be a frequent name among the Teleri (late writing, noted in Of Dwarves And Men, note 7).

Rúmil -- there are seemingly two Rúmils noted in The Lord of the Rings.

Gelmir -- there are seemingly two Gelmirs in Silmarillion writings.

Ambarussa -- (somewhat related here, though not exactly reflective of the point in general): Nerdanel gave her 6th and 7th child the same name: Ambarussa, though Feanor called one Ambarto desiring that they should be differently named.


Finarfin's Mother-name was Ingoldo, and Finarfin itself is a Sindarization of his name Arafinwe after being "prefixed" by the name Finwe -- that is, Finwe Arafinwe > Finarfin (see also Finwe Nolofinwe > Fingolfin)

Finrod's Mother-name was Ingoldo as well. And . . .

"Eärwen gave this name [Ingoldo] to her eldest child Artafindë (Finrod), and by it he was usually called by his brothers and sister who esteemed him and loved him. It was never Sindarized (the form would have been Angoloð). The name spread from his kin to many others who held him in honour, especially to Men (the Atani) of whom he was the greatest friend among the Eldar."

JRRT Shibboleth of Feanor

"Especially to Men" at least seems to include Elves too. In my opinion anyway

[Urwen]

Guess people no longer want to talk with me about things, not here at least. Oh well...back to creating individual topics...

[Galin]

In part I'm pouring my unpaid research into the web to see if it induces sleep!

Another example nobody prepared for:

It's interesting to me that a certain legend once included Morgoth knowing where Gondolin was before Maeglin was captured -- he'd heard of a Man [Tuor] wandering in the dales of the waters of Sirion, and he gathered spies, and not only orcs but snakes that could search "the deepest pits and the highest peaks", and wolves, dogs, great weasels -- thus including things that "could take scent moons old through running water"

Add owls and falcons!

"And all these came in multitudes" -- to seek this Man and search out the dwelling of the Noldoli that had escaped his thraldom."

Of course the context surrounding this -- including the thrall Noldoli and Morgoth's hold on the "Great Lands" (and other stuff) is very different here . . . but one does think of the Crebain!

Anyway, if I recall correctly -- and if not, please correct me (said me on the internet) -- in earlier versions of the Túrin saga, Húrin's release didn't reveal the location of Gondolin in any measure. And if so, the following from The Wanderings of Húrin is a newer conception:

"Yet there were ears that heard the words that Húrin spoke, and report of all came soon to the Dark Throne in the north; and Morgoth smiled, for he knew now clearly in what region Turgon dwelt, though because of the eagles no spy of his could yet come within sight of the land behind the Encircling Mountains. This was the first evil that the freedom of Húrin achieved."

JRRT, The Wanderings of Húrin, The War of the Jewels -- used in Of the Ruin of Doriath, The Silmarillion.

CJRT then reveals: "At this point in the draft manuscript my father wrote:

"Later when captured and Maeglin wished to buy his release with treachery, Morgoth must answer laughing, saying: Stale news will buy nothing. I know this already, I am not so easily blinded! So Maeglin was obliged to offer more -- to undermine resistance in Gondolin.' [a further note of almost exact wording adds] 'and to compass the death of Tuor and Earendil if he could. If he did he would be allowed to retain Idril (said Morgoth)."

Note 30 The Wanderings of Húrin

For clarity, I've no problem with Christopher Tolkien's decision to combine descriptions here for the 1977 Silmarillion . . .

. . . and for me, the combining the 1930 Qenta Noldorinwa (QN) and the Wanderings of Húrin (WH) leaves the impression that Húrin betrayed a general location, and Maeglin's betrayal was needed for the assault -- that is, Maeglin provided the "very" location (the word very was added by CJRT for The Silmarillion), and "the ways whereby it might be found and assailed" (from QN).

Christopher Tolkien (commentary The Fall of Gondolin, The Book of Lost Tales) even notes: "Thus in the Silmarillion Morgoth remained in ignorance until Maeglin's capture of the precise location of Gondolin, and Maeglin's information was of correspondingly greater value to him, as it was also of greater damage to the city."


CJRT also noted in the Foreword of WJ that so much of the last chapters of Quenta Silmarillion remained in the form of the Qenta Noldorinwa of 1930 (aside from meagre hints) -- in other words, they weren't updated in the 1950s for example, like earlier chapters had been, and:

"For this there can be no simple explanation, but it seems to me that an important element was the centrality that my father accorded to the story of Húrin and Morwen and their children, Túrin Turambar and Nienor Niniel. This became for him, I think, the dominant and absorbing story of the end of the Elder Days, in which complexity of motive and character, trapped in the mysterious workings of Morgoth's curse, sets it altogether apart. (...)"

He then notes the new dimension to the ruin that Húrin's release would bring: his catastrophic entry into the land of Haleth's people (WH). But could Húrin as the "principle betrayer" of the location of Gondolin be part of this too?



Again, in very early The Book of Lost Tales the information about Gondolin from Meglin concerns the fashion of the plain and city, of the host, and the hoard of weapons, and he tells that Melko's host could not hope to overthrow the walls and gates of Gondolin even if they availed to win into the plain. The idea that Maeglin's treachery would involve other factors beyond location would not be a wholly new departure, then, but rather more like the earlier notion (in general at least).

I also find Christopher Tolkien's choice of phrasing here interesting (the first is from commentary to WH, followed in the book by the text from QN -- the second from commentary to the Tale of Years):

"Thus the story in Q was changed (IV. 143)"

"510 The story that the site of Gondolin was revealed to Morgoth by Maeglin was later changed: see pp. 272-3 and note 30."

:awakes:



So you see (recently "so" seems to be a celebrated sentence starter)? A sleep-inducing info dump of sorts!

But this thread needed more Maeglin in my opinion. And maybe a morsel more alliteration too.

And so

[Urwen]

That's great, but please talk about the more recent topics too. >.>