Tidbits of Curiosity

[Urwen]

He is from Japanese animation, so you might not know him.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

He is from Japanese animation, so you might not know him.

Ah. I was thinking it's within the legendarium. Thanks for clarifying!

[Urwen]

I find Turin and Beleg's friendship inspirational.

[Urwen]

I also find it interesting that while there were quite a number of names that belonged to First Age Elves that were recycled in Second and Third Age. And yet, there were quite a number of names that weren't (Finrod, Maeglin, Aredhel, Idril, Penlod, Egalmoth, Salgant, Saeros, Elwe, Olwe, Elenwe etc.)

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I also find it interesting that while there were quite a number of names that belonged to First Age Elves that were recycled in Second and Third Age. And yet, there were quite a number of names that weren't (Finrod, Maeglin, Aredhel, Idril, Penlod, Egalmoth, Salgant, Saeros, Elwe, Olwe, Elenwe etc.)

Lots of names were recycled by Numenorian Men, which used to belong to Men and Elves alike (as Nerwen's recent riddle proved). Do Elves recycle their names though? I'm interested to see if there's an example.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Lots of names were recycled by Numenorian Men, which used to belong to Men and Elves alike (as Nerwen's recent riddle proved). Do Elves recycle their names though? I'm interested to see if there's an example.

On the one hand, T once wrote "No...major character in the Elvish legends as reported in The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings has a name borne by another Elvish person of importance" (This was his reason for concluding Glorfindel of Gondolin and of Rivendell were one and the same). This does make sense, since even if you named your little Elfling after some dead Elvish hero, that dead Elf might come back.

On the other hand, T appears to have overlooked Galdor of Gondolin and Galdor of the Havens - unless either the latter Galdor was "of no importance," or if the original Galdor escaped the sack, made it to the Mouths of Sirion, and decided to hang out with Cirdan for the next 7000 years. But in that case, surely his buddy-reunion with Glorfindel would have been noted!

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Lots of names were recycled by Numenorian Men, which used to belong to Men and Elves alike (as Nerwen's recent riddle proved). Do Elves recycle their names though? I'm interested to see if there's an example.

I'm a bit late to this particular party but in my opinion, and generally speaking, Elves repeated names. Tolkien's late comment about the name Glorfindel has already been raised, but to repeat it here:

"At any rate what at first sight may seem the simplest solution must be abandoned: sc. that we have merely a reduplication of names, and that Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell were different persons. This repetition of so striking a name, though possible, would not be credible. No other major character in the Elvish legends as reported in The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings has a name born by another Elvish person of importance."

JRRT, Glorfindel II, The Peoples of Middle-Earth

In the margin JRRT also wrote: "Why not?" which in my opinion seems to refer to the "credible" part, and is arguably answered by the next sentence (as Christopher Tolkien appears to think as well). In addition, a Tolkienian note (same text) about the name Galdor reads:

"Galdor also appeared in The Fall of Gondolin, but the name is of a more simple and usual form [than Glorfindel] and might be repeated."

And back to the credible statement for a moment, in my opinion -- if this is indeed Tolkien's answer to "why not" -- well, let's just say I might respond with something like: "Well, not yet! That is, you can make it so."

Cough. That is, if I met JRRT in real life and could actually speak in his presence. And if I jumped that hurdle, I still dared to annoy him with such a response (unlikely, I think).



And this late comment raises the question of "importance" and "striking-ness" too, but in any case, we have other examples to possibly consider, some from JRRT's late writings.


Argon -- name often given by Sindar and Noldor in memory of Aracano's valour (The Shibboleth of Feanor)

Celebrimbor -- Sindarized form of Telerin Telperimpar -- said to be a frequent name among the Teleri (late writing, noted in Of Dwarves And Men, note 7).

Rúmil -- there are seemingly two Rúmils noted in The Lord of the Rings.

Gelmir -- there are seemingly two Gelmirs in Silmarillion writings.

Ambarussa -- (somewhat related here, though not exactly reflective of the point in general): Nerdanel gave her 6th and 7th child the same name: Ambarussa, though Feanor called one Ambarto desiring that they should be differently named.


Finarfin's Mother-name was Ingoldo, and Finarfin itself is a Sindarization of his name Arafinwe after being "prefixed" by the name Finwe -- that is, Finwe Arafinwe > Finarfin (see also Finwe Nolofinwe > Fingolfin)

Finrod's Mother-name was Ingoldo as well. And . . .

"Eärwen gave this name [Ingoldo] to her eldest child Artafindë (Finrod), and by it he was usually called by his brothers and sister who esteemed him and loved him. It was never Sindarized (the form would have been Angoloð). The name spread from his kin to many others who held him in honour, especially to Men (the Atani) of whom he was the greatest friend among the Eldar."

JRRT Shibboleth of Feanor

"Especially to Men" at least seems to include Elves too. In my opinion anyway

[Urwen]

Guess people no longer want to talk with me about things, not here at least. Oh well...back to creating individual topics...

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I also find it interesting that while there were quite a number of names that belonged to First Age Elves that were recycled in Second and Third Age. And yet, there were quite a number of names that weren't (Finrod, Maeglin, Aredhel, Idril, Penlod, Egalmoth, Salgant, Saeros, Elwe, Olwe, Elenwe etc.)

Well, I think that Numenoreans would have avoided certain names as just TOO big (Finrod, Elwe, Olwe, Finwe, Fingolfin: Turgon was an exception, as more than just a direct ancestor of the Kings but the Elf who explicitly agreed to his daughter marrying a Man, starting the whole thing. He was practically family). Villains were right out: Maeglin, Salgant, Saeros, Eol (How many Mordreds or Iagos have you met?) Aredhel means "noble Elf," so not good for a human woman. Actually, T gives us so few names of Numenorean women that we can't say names like Idril and Elenwe weren't used; we know that Finduilas was.

[Urwen]

Yes, this quote got me thinking about it

...and the name of Meglin has gone out of shame from among Eldar and Noldoli.

[Huinesoron]

Taking a few things in reverse...

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Well, I think that Numenoreans would have avoided certain names as just TOO big (Finrod, Elwe, Olwe, Finwe, Fingolfin: Turgon was an exception, as more than just a direct ancestor of the Kings but the Elf who explicitly agreed to his daughter marrying a Man, starting the whole thing. He was practically family). Villains were right out: Maeglin, Salgant, Saeros, Eol (How many Mordreds or Iagos have you met?) Aredhel means "noble Elf," so not good for a human woman. Actually, T gives us so few names of Numenorean women that we can't say names like Idril and Elenwe weren't used; we know that Finduilas was.

Tolkien Gateway claims that "Ingold" (ie, Finrod's Mother-name) was pretty popular among Numenoreans; I'm not sure what that claim is based on, though.

Without checking, I feel like it was mostly the post-king Gondorians who reused names (ie, the Stewards and Dol Amroth); there's an Earendil and a Turambar in the list of kings of Gondor, but the rest look pretty unfamiliar. The lines of Numenor and Arnor are equally non-First-Age. So I feel like there was an element of harking back to the Glory Days (even if they weren't Gondorian Glory Days) involved in the whole thing.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

On the one hand, T once wrote "No...major character in the Elvish legends as reported in The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings has a name borne by another Elvish person of importance" (This was his reason for concluding Glorfindel of Gondolin and of Rivendell were one and the same). This does make sense, since even if you named your little Elfling after some dead Elvish hero, that dead Elf might come back.

On the other hand, T appears to have overlooked Galdor of Gondolin and Galdor of the Havens - unless either the latter Galdor was "of no importance," or if the original Galdor escaped the sack, made it to the Mouths of Sirion, and decided to hang out with Cirdan for the next 7000 years. But in that case, surely his buddy-reunion with Glorfindel would have been noted!

There's also Legolas, scout of Gondolin. And Gildor Inglorion, whose name seems to indicate that he was the son of Inglor - but 'Inglor' was a name either of Finrod or Finarfin, and no family tree has ever given either of them a son named Gildor. So apparently there's two Inglors, too (though Gildor also claims to be of 'the golden house of Finrod', so... who knows!).

Of course, the external answer is that Tolkien frequently cannibalised the earlier Tales when writing LotR and its associated texts. That's why he had such trouble with Glorfindel - originally he was just a convenient name, but when he set to cleaning up the Gondolin tale for theoretical publication, he had to find a way to reconcile the two.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Lots of names were recycled by Numenorian Men, which used to belong to Men and Elves alike (as Nerwen's recent riddle proved). Do Elves recycle their names though? I'm interested to see if there's an example.

Well... Finwe. Who named his sons Finwe, Finwe, and Finwe, then stuck some new bits on the front when he figured out their personalities. And then Finwe Jr I, now called Curufinwe, named one of his sons Curufinwe.

And then, after Finwe and Finwe Jr I were both dead, Finwe Jr II and Finwe Jr III both stuck their dad's name on the beginning of their own names, which were already their dad's name with something stuck on the beginning, because... somehow doing that made them more kingly?

Basically, if Mordred had just renamed himself Arthurevilarthur, he would've had the throne no problem.

hS