Tidbits of Curiosity

[Urwen]

I read your opinion about Tar-Miriel and I can't help but cry. It is so, so heartbreaking.....

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I read your opinion about Tar-Miriel and I can't help but cry. It is so, so heartbreaking.....

I, however, don't agree with your description of Erendis, because I can't help but be mad at her. Even when her husband revealed the real reason for his voyages, she still acted as if she were the injured party. She was perfectly willing to let Sauron run amok unchecked, spreading terror and remaining a threat, because to her, having her husband by her side was far more important, amirite?

Basically, I see her as a selfish individual who was perfectly willing to see the world burn as long as she got what she wanted.

People like Maeglin are vilified for putting their own desires ahead of the well-being of the world as a whole, and yet when someone like Erendis does the same thing (more or less), it's all perfectly kosher.

I feel it's a tad unfair.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I, however, don't agree with your description of Erendis, because I can't help but be mad at her. Even when her husband revealed the real reason for his voyages, she still acted as if she were the injured party. She was perfectly willing to let Sauron run amok unchecked, spreading terror and remaining a threat, because to her, having her husband by her side was far more important, amirite?

Basically, I see her as a selfish individual who was perfectly willing to see the world burn as long as she got what she wanted.

People like Maeglin are vilified for putting their own desires ahead of the well-being of the world as a whole, and yet when someone like Erendis does the same thing (more or less), it's all perfectly kosher.

I feel it's a tad unfair.

Ah, is this in the Strong Female Characters thing? Bear in mind that falls under the Not-So-Crackpot Theories section: ie, unlike the Deep Places list (which tries to be evidence-based and explicitly state when something is a stretch), it's allowed to be a bit on the biased and weird side. (That one comes right above the one that claims, straightfaced, that Nienor exists because Tolkien wanted people to paint nudes. O.o)

Erendis is messed up. So is Aldarion. He doesn't care about her much at all, and she is insanely jealous of him. Much like Maeglin, even if the specific inciting incident hadn't occured, she would have found something to get angry about. Take a look at how badly she messed up her daughter - and, by extension and example, all three of the later Ruling Queens - to show this.

(Of course, this still makes her a strong character...)

As for Tar-Miriel: she was the Queen, and I refuse to accept the usurper's claim.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Much like Maeglin, even if the specific inciting incident hadn't occured, she would have found something to get angry about.

So....you think that even if the circumstances were different, both of them would still have done what they did?

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

As for Tar-Miriel: she was the Queen, and I refuse to accept the usurper's claim.

hS

Me neither.

[Urwen]

P.S: Did you see my latest parodies?

[Urwen]

Nienor and Tar-Miriel survived.

The text only states that Nienor jumped into Teiglin, not that it killed her. Likewise, the text only says that Tar-Miriel was swallowed by the waves, not that it killed her. And as we know, Ulmo has a penchant for saving good people when it is in his power to do so. He saved Voronwe from the shipwreck, after all.

And in both of those cases, he had the power to do so. He saved them both, enabling them to start new lives somewhere else.

Pity that Turin chose not to jump into the river himself. If he had, he would have been saved too.

[Galadriel55]

I don't think Nienor would want to be saved, and as such I don't think she was. Tar-Miriel however... *puts on fanfic glasses*

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Nienor and Tar-Miriel survived.

The text only states that Nienor jumped into Teiglin, not that it killed her. Likewise, the text only says that Tar-Miriel was swallowed by the waves, not that it killed her. And as we know, Ulmo has a penchant for saving good people when it is in his power to do so. He saved Voronwe from the shipwreck, after all.

And in both of those cases, he had the power to do so. He saved them both, enabling them to start new lives somewhere else.

Pity that Turin chose not to jump into the river himself. If he had, he would have been saved too.

I think I can drag myself back awake for this.

Nienor? I'm dubious. Ulmo didn't have a lot of power over rivers. It also kind of ruins the downer ending - which, I get that's what you're going for, but Tolkien went pretty hard into it.

But, assume it's true... where would she go? Ulmo has a habit of rescuing people to help their kin - look at Elwing, but also Voronwe. We know that Nienor didn't go anywhere near Hurin or Morwen, so what would she do?

Well... she's the closest thing to a Lord of the House of Hador still in existence, bar her parents. The Hadorians are still seriously oppressed; in the aftermath of Turin's visit and Aerin's death, we're told things got even worse. We're also told that when Hurin visited Dor-Lomin after his release, he found none of his kin there.

We're also told that, according to Gondorian theory, the Northmen (== Rohirrim) were descended from Hadorians who refused the call to Numenor. Fitting these together, could Nienor have pulled a Moses, and led (a portion of) the enslaved remnants of her people away to the East? The idea of 'not the land, but the people' being important seems to fit pretty well with her character, and while we know that Ulmo believes 'the last hope of the Noldor lieth in the West', he may have different views of the Edain.

As for Tar-Miriel, her rescue seems a lot more likely: there's not such an obvious downer ending to the Akallabeth (most of the Good Guys get away, after all!), and she is explicitly swallowed by the Sea.

Perhaps, rather than a bird (a la Elwing), Ulmo would have transformed her into some other creature: a dolphin or something. And then... what? It's impossible to believe she wouldn't have found her way back to the Faithful if she'd gone to Middle-earth, and the idea of her being stolen away to Ulmo's palace or something isn't very Tolkien. So... Valinor?

There's a couple of options for what the Queen of Numenor could get up to in the Undying Lands. Firstly, if Amandil made it there, she could just sort of hang out with him. She'd live out her life in peace, as a sort of reward for her hardship - kind of like Frodo. But nothing too momentous.

Alternately... she's the Queen of Numenor. And there just so happens to be an entire army of Numenorean soldiers sleeping in the former Pass of Light, waiting for the End of Days. Do we really think the Valar would trust Pharazon the Usurper to lead them against Morgoth? Nah; they'd love to have a decent, Iluvatar-fearing ruler for their weird undead mortal army. I can just see them putting Tar-Miriel to sleep at their head, clad in the finest jewelled armour Aule can make. When they wake up, Pharazon can be cabin-boy for his cousin, Tar-Miriel the Gleaming, as she sails to war against the Enemy of the World.

And yes, they can meet up with Turin and plan the battle together. "Eonwe? Tulkas? I suppose they have their uses, but this is going to take skill..."

hS