Tolkien's Funny Bone

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Focusing on the Sil...

There are certain ways that events in the Sil can be regarded as humorous. I think Hookbill's statement about the humor being situational holds here too...and your sense of humor probably has to be a bit...odd...maybe even a tad unkind.

. . . .

It is situations, not so much characters that are funny.

Although, Turin is a veritable font of comedy, if approached from a certain angle.

So are you saying that comedy lies in the eye of the beholder? Or that it implies a distance between reader/perceiver and character, with the reader holding a superior or supercilious attitude? That would imply a readerly interpretation, or unintentional humour. That's usually typical of satire, but not necessarily of all comedy.

Some of Tolkien's humour is word play. He's maybe not as sharp as P.G. Woodhouse, but the opening of Smith of Wootten Major has aspects of Woodhouse's word play.

Originally Posted by Hookbill

I also think he liked putting the 'well-to-do' in situations that they wouldn't like to be put into.

So he liked to pop a little bit of a person's vanity, if that person was perhaps pompous or lacked self-knowledge?

EDIT: Whoops no time now to reply to Aiwendil's excellent post. back later

[Tuor of Gondolin]

What sort of sense of humour did Tolkien have? Why is so little of it displayed in the Legendarium?

Did he leave it out so legions of fanfiction writers in later ages could supply it?

Aren't you forgetting about when Aldarion brought back from
northern Middle-earth a Norwegian Blue Parrot for
Erendis? Sadly, it turned out the parrot was dead, not
resting, and the relationship headed south.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

Aren't you forgetting about when Aldarion brought back from
northern Middle-earth a Norwegian Blue Parrot for
Erendis? Sadly, it turned out the parrot was dead, not
resting, and the relationship headed south.

Are you suggesting that there is a lost Pirates of the Haradrim text which CT has not included in HoMe?

Originally Posted by Warg Fancier

This creation myth is just so......high; and comedy would bring it back down.

You aren't suggesting a rank order to Tolkien's creation are you? I think that, if the elves had had more of a sense of humour, perhaps they wouldn't have become so nostalgic. It was Frodo's tragedy, as an elf-friend, to become enmeshed in this perspective and so be unable, as Sam, Merry and Pippin, to reintegrate with the Shire society.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin
Aren't you forgetting about when Aldarion brought back from
northern Middle-earth a Norwegian Blue Parrot for
Erendis? Sadly, it turned out the parrot was dead, not
resting, and the relationship headed south.

Are you suggesting that there is a lost Pirates of the Haradrim text which CT has not included in HoMe?

CT wanted to give all the credit to JRRT and none to his hitherto
unknown literary collaborator.

It can be found in the chapter
Middle-earth's Most Outrageous Out-takes ,
by G. Smeagol in his tell-all book: How an Oxford
Academic misrepresented my adventurous life

[Oddwen]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

It was Frodo's tragedy, as an elf-friend, to become enmeshed in this perspective and so be unable, as Sam, Merry and Pippin, to reintegrate with the Shire society.

Art thou saying...that Frodo lost his sense of humor somewhere on the road to Mordor?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Oddwen

Art thou saying...that Frodo lost his sense of humor somewhere on the road to Mordor?

Not quite. I think Frodo sounds "whole" in the Field of Cormallen. He is certainly capable of laughter and joy. Perhaps it was the Scouring of the Shire that was the final nail in the coffin of his depression.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Oddwen

Art thou saying...that Frodo lost his sense of humor somewhere on the road to Mordor?

I think he lost something else. He still had his humour, as is shown with the encounters with Ruffians et al in the scoured Shire. But he lost his carefree-ness. Silliness, if you will. And he *did* take over some of the Elves' nostalgia and brooding.



Honestly, I can't see anything in the Sil and COH that would make people laugh. Most of the time, if it's humour, it's quite dark and makes you unable to decide whether to laugh or to cry, which makes me laugh at myself and the brilliance of the book (rather than the text itself). Even the funnier parts mentioned earlier in ths thread are not that funny; they lighten the mood somewhat but they are still not comedy. Personally, if I laugh while reading these two books it's probably some victory or great success (but again, nothing funny) and I just can't keep my emotions under control.


There was this passage in COH where Turin runs out of the woods making lots of noise, like he has an army behind him, to help the Halethrim, and all the orcs oanic and scatter. And then the halethrim ask where are Turin's men and he answers they all walk with him as one man. I've always smiled a bit at this passage, but I'm not sure if it's because of the victory or the small bit of humour.

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

But it seems to me that Tolkien had two more or less distinct modes of literary thought - the high and the comedic. And though he sometimes combined these (e.g. in TH and LotR), he never synthesised them.

Originally Posted by Eomer

The Silmarillion (and these are only my thoughts, mind you) is not meant to be life-affirming. It's meant to be awe-inspiring.

I entirely agree with the above statements.

[Kuruharan]

Pirates of the Haradrim

With cat-like tread,
Upon our prey we steal...

Sorry...

Anyway, obviously, given Tolkien's well-known disdain for cats...he would obviously consider it appropriate to refer to such unsavory characters as Haradrim pirates as "cat-like."

[Kuruharan]

I don't have time to respond at length, I'm afraid.

But I don't see the Silmarillion this way. In fact, if you ask me, the Silmarillion is at the opposite extreme - it's an intensely serious work. In fact, it's one of the few works I can think of that is just about utterly devoid of humor.

-Aiwendil

-and-

So are you saying that comedy lies in the eye of the beholder?

-Bethberry

Bethberry basically restated my point in a much more concise (and intelligible) manner.

But I don't see the Silmarillion this way. In fact, if you ask me, the Silmarillion is at the opposite extreme - it's an intensely serious work. In fact, it's one of the few works I can think of that is just about utterly devoid of humor.

The same thing could be said of Dr. Strangelove if you wanted to view it from that perspective.

The stories are constructed with different goals in mind. Kubrick designed Dr. Strangelove to be funny complete with witty dialogue, etc. Tolkien was intending The Sil to be serious and he did this through dialogue and tone. You are not going to be reading The Sil for hilarious dialogue...unless your sense of humor is truly bizarre.

[Balin999]

I found this thread where Downers wrote about their favourite funny scenes (actually started by Esty). Doesn't fit to the ongoing debate, but maybe it's interesting for some of you anyways.

[Mithalwen]

I think it is in the Biography that Tolkien admits to having a childish sense of humour. I am sure there is something about him putting his false teeth into the outstretched hands of inattentive shopkeepers ..... tell me I didn't make that up...

[Bêthberry]

Thanks for that link to Esty's thread, Balin999. Some good examples there of humorous moments.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I think it is in the Biography that Tolkien admits to having a childish sense of humour. I am sure there is something about him putting his false teeth into the outstretched hands of inattentive shopkeepers ..... tell me I didn't make that up...

Oh dear! If they were wooden teeth, Tolkien might have been having a laugh at the first American George (who is not to be confused with St. George, nor are any other Georges ).

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

it seems to me that Tolkien had two more or less distinct modes of literary thought - the high and the comedic. And though he sometimes combined these (e.g. in TH and LotR), he never synthesised them.

Originally Posted by davem

'The Silmarillion is a fundamentally humourous & comical work, but I have deliberately cut out all references to custard pies & rubber chickens. The Sillyness has been absorbed into the story itself...'

Originally Posted by Eomer

I reckon that comedy is the way of breaking down the world.

Originally Posted by narfforc

it involves more than a touch of irony

Are we setting up a distinction between situational humour or character-driven humour?

Or, is it possible that comedy is part of the music of the Children of Ilúvatar? It is a gift to redeem the darkness imposed by Melkor?

Originally Posted by Ainulindale

For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Ilúvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making.

Could it be that comedy is the secret fire-- Being in the moment of their utterance ? Eä! Let humor be!.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I hope not. Comedy is pretty deflationary. It relaxes. This creation myth is just so......high; and comedy would bring it back down.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

O yes, it was deliberate; and all the better for it. I reckon that comedy is the way of breaking down the world. If you are depressed or whatever, you need comedy as the antidote. It leads you to view the universe in a certain way. A bit like the realisation that there are billions and billions of micro-organsims in and on your body. It makes you take things less seriously; gently reminding you that it doesn't matter that much.

The Lord of the Rings had comedy, but that was a more life-affirming work. The Silmarillion (and these are only my thoughts, mind you) is not meant to be life-affirming. It's meant to be awe-inspiring. No comedy; nothing which will make you consider the grand scheme of things. The Silmarillion could not incorporate such comedy because it demands that you never take things easily. There is no way Tolkien would make you think of the unserious here!

It's just like music. Sigur Rós and British Sea Power: two of my favourite bands. The latter you can smile at or with; the former will often not allow you to smile. They're that bit more serious. Actually, there is smiling but not laughter.

Maybe.

The other comic bit in The Silmarillion is Aulë's 'They will have need of wood' line. Apparently. I never thought it was comic. Thingol's line about sitting in a tree is not comic either (to me). I find it more scene-setting than comic. But it's a very minor point.

[narfforc]

I have always found the Sneaking episode between Gollum and the hobbits quite funny, whether Tolkien wanted it to be or not, it involves more than a touch of irony. Sam being discovered at the Council of Elrond, Bilbo's Farewell Speech at his Birthday Party, and the Ioreth incident with Aragorn in the Houses of Healing, have all got elements of comedy about them.

[davem]

Certainly The Book of Lost Tales is 'lighter' in mood & tone in many parts than the later Silmarillion. It seems like Tolkien deliberately chose an increasingly serious tone for the work. If humour is absent from the Sil it is, as Aiwendil points out, a deliberate decision on Tolkien's part.

I think LotR is the greater work, among many other things, because of the presence of humour, which 'humanises' it. The odd thing is that in his attempt to create a modern mythology he omitted something central to just about all mythologies. Or perhaps its more subtle?

'The Silmarillion is a fundamentally humourous & comical work, but I have deliberately cut out all references to custard pies & rubber chickens. The Sillyness has been absorbed into the story itself...'