I Found the Entwives!

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by the phantom

But "magic" isn't "magic" to the Elves.

I disagree. Legolas sets himself apart from even Aragorn and Boromir in term of his ability - he does not consider it normal or ubiquitous.

Originally Posted by The ring goes south, FotR

The strongest must seek a way, say you? But I say: let a ploughman plough, but choose an otter for swimming, and for running light over grass and leaf or over snow-an Elf

The leader of the elves also notes the peculiarity of the elven cloacks:

Originally Posted by Farewell to Lorien, FotR

And you will find them a great aid in keeping out of the sight of unfriendly eyes, whether you walk among the stones or the trees.

to a great effect:

Originally Posted by The Riders of Rohan

In pairs they galloped by, and though every now and then one rose in his stirrups and gazed ahead and to either side, they appeared not to perceive the three strangers sitting silently and watching them. The host had almost passed when suddenly Aragorn stood up, and called in a loud voice
...
- And strange too is your raiment. Have you sprung out of the grass? How did you escape our sight?

What Galadriel and Tolkien dislike is the confusion of Men between magic used by elves and magic used by the enemy, which is an altogether different thing from saying that they discard the notion of magic itself:

Originally Posted by Letter #131

I have not used 'magic' consistently, and indeed the Elven-queen Galadriel is obliged to remonstrate with the Hobbits on their confused use of the word both for the devices and operations of the Enemy, and for those of the Elves.

Originally Posted by Mirror of Galadriel, FotR

For this is what your folk would call magic. I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy.

Originally Posted by Letter #155

I am afraid I have been far too casual about 'magic' and especially the use of the word; though Galadriel and others show by the criticism of the 'mortal' use of the word, that the thought about it is not altogether casual.
...
The Enemy's operations are by no means all goetic deceits, but 'magic' that produces real effects in the physical world. But his magia he uses to bulldoze both people and things, and his goeteia to terrify and subjugate. Their magia the Elves and Gandalf use (sparingly): a magia, producing real results (like fire in a wet faggot) for specific beneficent purposes. Their goetic effects are entirely artistic and not intended to deceive: they never deceive Elves (but may deceive or bewilder unaware Men) since the difference is to them as clear as the difference to us between fiction, painting, and sculpture, and 'life'.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Rune and Raynor

Blah blah magic blah blah I disagree blah blah...

Nope. Wrong.

[the phantom]

Okay, okay... here's a real response to the points you have raised.

Originally Posted by Rune

You are right in saying that it did not absolutely need to in order for the quest to succede, but no one said that there was a specific set of rules that had to be met for the rope to drop. It is magic! We are not supposed to have a check list.

They are being followed (check)
It would be usefull if the rope chose drop now (check)
Sertain doom if rope does not drop

oh darn the last one was not pressent therefor it cannot be magic!

My whole point about need was in response to the divine intervention argument for "magic". There is a difference between the two.

Example-
An elf runs over snow = normal "magic"
In a desperate situation an elf runs over water = not normal "magic" (must be divine intervention)

My argument is that the rope is either made to come untied upon command or it isn't. If it was not made that way (if it coming untied was not normal) then there was some sort of divine intervention involved. But obviously the situation did not call for divine intervention.

Therefore we must assume that the rope was designed to come untied, or that someone/something untied it. I have already given many reasons as to why I do not believe it was designed to come untied, and so the inescapable conclusion is that the rope was physically untied.

Originally Posted by me

But "magic" isn't "magic" to the Elves.

Originally Posted by Raynor

I disagree. Legolas sets himself apart from even Aragorn and Boromir in term of his ability - he does not consider it normal or ubiquitous.

Aragorn and Boromir are not Elves! So of course it is not normal for them. It is normal for an Elf however. It is as normal to an Elf as walking is to a man. Therefore it is not some form of unusual or unpredictable "magic". It is simply a natural ability.

Just like making "magic" cloaks. It is simply an enhanced ability naturally possessed and developed by some Elves. And logically, rope making would be the same.

I don't see how any of the other quotes you gave disproves my view of magic. As a matter of fact, they support it.

a magia, producing real results (like fire in a wet faggot) for specific beneficent purposes

You see? For a "specific" purpose! In other words, any "magic" that goes on is something that was specifically designed to happen. A rope doesn't untie itself because it is "magic"- it unties itself because it was purposefully and specifically designed to! Every time! The "magic" is consistent and precise- not enigmatic or unexplainable.

Anyway, there you go. The explanation has been given.

I think you guys just need to accept the fact that I found the Entwives.

[Raynor]

My whole point about need was in response to the divine intervention argument for "magic".

But need has a subjective aspect, whether in relation to divinity or to personal use of magic. One may experience a situation where his emotional status would make him consider certain actions as very necessary, even if they may not be so 'objectively'; and this we should consider when we refer to Frodo and Sam, after a hard journey, experiencing loss, betrayal, severance from the others, the burden of the quest, almost certainty of death at the end, etc. Even if we don't have an instance of magic, divine intervention may still bring about a good boost of morale, through an act of providence that may take away some of the fears and stress, and nurture hope and strength.

It is normal for an Elf however.

I disagree that all instances of magic are normal for all elves. Even for Feanor, some of his magical (subcreative) works are unique, he cannot do them again; and most of what he created generates awe, esspecially in regards to the silmarils - not only among the elves, but among the maiar and the valar too, whose magical/subcreative abilities far surpass those of the elves. Even the valar experience the mistery of magic as subcreation: Yavanna cannot make the trees again.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by me

It is normal for an Elf however. *regarding running over snow*

Originally Posted by Raynor

I disagree that all instances of magic are normal for all elves.

First- it's NOT magic. Substitute "amazing natural skills" for "magic" in that sentence.

Okay, now that we've fixed that- you are correct if you are defining "normal" as "something they themselves could do". BUT something is not "magic" just because you can't do it.

I can't bowl a perfect 300 game. That does not mean that bowling a 300 game is magical, or that the person who did it was using any sort of magic. The ability to bowl a perfect game, while not common, is normal, in the sense that it is a feat that can be achieved naturally by a human being who fully develops a strong natural gift.

I think this explains your point about Feanor and his "magical" works. Sure, Feanor's skill was far beyond everyone else, but it was natural. His works were not beyond someone possessing his level of skill and focus and his amount of learning. So his works, though amazing, were in fact normal for someone of his stature.

As far as your point about creating things that can never be duplicated (Silmarils, the two trees), the sports analogy works well for that too. There are some feats in the career of a baseball/basketball/football athlete that can logically never be equaled. A perfect storm can hit where he is at the top of his game, going up against opponents he knows well, playing in stadiums that favor his style, and to top it off he has an amazing run of great luck.

No matter what your hobby or profession is, there is going to be one moment, one day, or one accomplishment that will be your best- something you will never equal. One place and time where every bit of your natural skill and your circumstances will hit full stride.

It's not "magic". It's perfectly normal. It's life.

Well, there you go. I hope I worded that well enough for you to see where I'm coming from.

As far as your take on divine intervention, honestly- divine intervention is used merely to create a feel-good moment? I don't buy it. Sam and Frodo showed themselves capable of dealing with a heck of a lot more than a lost rope. I seriously doubt it would cause them to have an emotional breakdown.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Substitute "amazing natural skills" for "magic" in that sentence.

Well, I think we need to define magic for our discussion. I would call it abilities to interact with the world that go beyond the purely phisical possibilities of the body; these abilities come from the power of the spirit, first and foremost. I believe it is safe to presume that the elves were capable to make this difference for themselves.

Originally Posted by the phantom

divine intervention is used merely to create a feel-good moment? I

It wasn't purely symbolic, it also had a practical aspect, and even the emotional effect may not be that insignificant; after all, belief in the interventions of the 'invisible hand' is what drove the quest from the start. Since you haven't addressed the other part of that paragraph, I presume you agree that need can be perceived differently, according to circumstances, and if ability to interact with magical objects is positively influenced by the degree of need that is felt, then we can't discard magic-interaction explanation.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Ray

Well, I think we need to define magic for our discussion.

No, no, no- let's keep this issue muddy.

I would call it abilities to interact with the world that go beyond the purely phisical possibilities of the body

But how is physical power to influence and interact with matter any more natural (less magical) than spiritual/mental power to influence and interact with matter? Inherent natural power is inherent natural power, no matter if it is physical or not.

If we meet a race of aliens from Neptune that cannot make audible sounds but communicate telepathically, would you honestly call what they do "magic"? No. It would just be different and amazing. Also, our ability to communicate orally would be just as different and amazing from their point of view, so if what they do is indeed "magic" then our ability to speak is equally magical to them.

I presume you agree that need can be perceived differently, according to circumstances, and if ability to interact with magical objects is positively influenced by the degree of need that is felt, then we can't discard magic-interaction explanation.

So, you are saying that the rope may have been specifically designed to react physically to the wielder on a sensitive emotional basis? That the rope could sense the amount of urgency in the mind of the person touching it and would be activated if the urgency exceeded a certain threshold?

That's a fine theory. It fits nicely with my view of "magic"- that it is specific and precise. And it could also explain the inconsistency with Haldir in Lothlorien untying the rope.

You can certainly choose to believe that if you wish. I can't think of anything to definitively refute it. But my instinct tells me that Elves wouldn't design a rope like that.

Can you imagine anyone building a microwave that would only work for starving people, who were desperately hungry? It's not efficient. If you're going to make something that works, wouldn't it make logical sense to allow it to work all the time?

Just like the boats from Lothlorien. They weren't just light when they needed to be carried. The cloaks weren't camouflage only when enemy eyes were upon them. Now, items more unique and special, like Galadriel's vial of light, I can see being more complex and containing emotional and vocal triggers. But rope- I have difficulty believing it.