Lord Melkor Rightful Master of the Fates of Arda

Originally Posted by alatar

I can understand how you may think as you do, but for me, I'm more like Treebeard when it comes to 'sides.' Sure, the Valar are all that you write (and maybe more), but your King limps from the bite of an elvish blade, couldn't keep Three Jewels from an Elvish lass and her human ragtag beau, and would have been spider food hadn't it been for Eru's intervention (sending the Balrogs to save this Dark Lord's skin), so can't say that I buy into the PR/hype, as did Ar-Pharazôn the Golden.

Manwë, I pegged here, and you can make of that what you will.

My money's on, incidently, Folco Boffin, as to me, he's at the heart of everything...

You see how quickly these empty slaves betray their masters? Whenever it suits their purpose, they will portray Luthien, beautiful thief, whom yes, even Melkor and Sauron adore and honor and speak no ignoble words, as a princess more beautiful and powerful than all the daughters of the world, and Beren, foremost among the champions of men, and then without hesitation demote them to the level of Elvish lass and Beren as "ragtag" prostitute.
Because there is no fundamental value in truth among them.
For none honor Beren more than Melkor; whom has never spoken any defilement of an advisary that has proven their worth merely by having the courage to confront Him. They dwell as equals and friends now in paradise.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Neithan Tol Turambar

For none honor Beren more than Melkor; whom has never spoken any defilement of an advisary that has proven their worth merely by having the courage to confront Him. They dwell as equals and friends now in paradise.

So, having no 'earthly' accomplishments about which to boast, Melkor has fallen to name-dropping. He was 'owned' by Beren and Luthien, and I doubt that Melkor and the Camlost ever shook hands, even the one that remained, in this life or the thereafter (assuming that Melkor could even wiggle a hand free of his chains). Does Melkor know Paris Hilton too?

By the by, I've glad that this topic has arisen as it's given me a new perspective on Melkor. Assuming Eru 'begat' in some way Melkor, technically that could mean that Eru is Melkor's mommy. So, while many of the other Valar are married, Melkor sits alone, living in Angband, as I now see it, in his mother's basement! From there he dreams and schemes, and in the end it's all for not. When, perchance, a beautiful maiden stops by, he can only look. Her singing makes him impotent..I mean, ineffective for a time, and she walks out with the guy that that brought her to the dance (which, as we've read, is now a friend of the Dark Lord, because that's as close as he's going to get to fair Tinuviel). Wow! And all this time I thought the guy scary, but now realize how sad he was.

Anyway, that may be a harsh way of saying that Melkor had no or lost his creative powers as life became all about him. What does this say about giving one's children too much? Spoiled is a really fitting word here.

And I'm not even going to bring up that Melkor had to chain Húrin to the mountainside just for some company...

But I do understand the point that Melkor did serve a purpose, as without him, the First Age may be summed up to be "The Elves had tea; Men showed up and made coffee." Boring!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Like a nasty, hateful teenager.....with superpowers! Effects will not be pleasant.

[The Might]

1. That's not such a bad idea at all, I like Pippin...but I can't change my name, sorry.

2. "If I can speak from experience, when inventing a character, especially a villain, it is difficult to get one's mind into the right position."
I disagree, look at Alien, he's evil and doesn't change a bit

3. Hmm...I'm not so sure about that Alatar. I don't think Eru really made them pairs, I just think nobody wanted to be together with Melkor. Anyway, I am pretty certain I once say a quote where it read that he had a hidden love for Varda, which would even more justify his hatred for Manwe. What I can't understand is why it necessarily happened to him...

Also, note that the original 14 Valar were 7 Male and 7 Female (somehow it feels wrong to use such terms when talking about spirits), only after the arrival of Tulkas this balance was changed.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by The Might

3. Hmm...I'm not so sure about that Alatar. I don't think Eru really made them pairs, I just think nobody wanted to be together with Melkor. Anyway, I am pretty certain I once say a quote where it read that he had a hidden love for Varda, which would even more justify his hatred for Manwe. What I can't understand is why it necessarily happened to him...

I think that, whether paired or no, Melkor was a loner, and that says something about his personality. He hung out with Ungoliant, but she wasn't really a companion, just a fellow traveler of convenience. He deceived her, she'd have et him.

Did Melkor just need a true friend, a hug, more attention from Eru?


alatar begins to look for Melkor's address to which to send a Teddy-gram...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

Did Melkor just need a true friend, a hug, more attention from Eru?


alatar begins to look for Melkor's address to which to send a Teddy-gram...

Love or a giggle perhaps. Perhaps he just never found a cartoon or comic that gave him a really good laugh.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Love or a giggle perhaps. Perhaps he just never found a cartoon or comic that gave him a really good laugh.

not true not true! I loved the Savage Sword of Conan! wench.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Neithan Tol Turambar

wench.

A typo? Did you mean wrench, as in torque?

but Hurin said: "at least none shall pity [her] for this, that [she] had a craven for father."

Thanks for the quote, but mine eyes have not seen the glory nor the point. Is Melkor riding the 'Children of Hurin" bandwagon as well? Book signings at Wal-Mart soon to come?

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

And what's more, because Everything stems from Eru, even if he who reveres Darkness thinks he is doing something different, he is not because Eru planted that there too, along with the fluffy stuff. And the Darkness only serves to make the Light that much brighter.

Initially, your post sparked thoughts of wavelengths, radiation and dark matter, but thankfully I've moved back from physics to literature and philosophy. It's been always hard for me to accept an omniscient creator god that somehow is not responsible for even the 'bad,' as others have argued here. At least in Tolkien's word, we (or at least I) see that the bad was to be part of the piece from the first note. That, to me, is different that the Christian Genesis account (and other books that refer to the Fall), where it seems that all wasn't to go sour but did.

And thanks to other posters for more good thoughts.

[The Might]

Clearly, there was a change in him

As noted in the Ainulindale, when the Ainur sang to him in the beginning, Eru was glad
But afterwards they all spent some time in which they "sang only each alone, or but few together."
It was in this time that Melkor had changed and started seeking the Flame Imperishable, as he wanted to create things of his own.
I don't think a friend would have helped...he wanted power
And since it was hard to rule over his own kind with Eru around, he wanted to create his own things over which he could rule
I think he wanted to be just like Eru, and have his own place where he could rule everything. And since this was not possible in Ea, he would have destroyed everything had he succeeded. I think it's hard to imagine how spirits think, or what needs they have...I'm not sure about this matter.

[Thenamir]

Alright, Neithan Tol Turambar, I'm calling you out. Your verbose and insufferable tirades, your name-calling, and your general attitude (not to mention your deluded self-proclamation as Lord Sauron's "herald and messenger") have earned you the negative rep you so richly deserve. Prepare to defend yourself.

In your introductory post on the "Introduce yourself here" thread, you posted the following:

I really care about Tolkeins work and would not see it cheapened, or changed, not one word, or exploited in any way by those who love it less than I. Because if they loved it as much as I then they would know that it's greatness is far beyond everything I have within myself in total, and only the vilest and most atrocious arrogance could convince a man that he could by adjustments, great or small, improve upon the work of Tolkein.

Now aside from the fact that you revere the Learned Professor's work so much that you can't even spell his name correctly, your entire premise in beginning and carrying on this thread is entirely antithetical to every spoken and written opinion of Tolkien himself. I defy you to produce one iota, a single scintilla of evidence to show that Tolkien himself, whom you claim to revere and defend, intended that Melkor (or Sauron) was the master, savior, and liberator which you claim. Otherwise you are attempting to alter and revise that work of which you say

only the vilest and most atrocious arrogance could convince a man that he could by adjustments, great or small, improve upon the work of Tolkein.

I agree with that sentiment, and I here and now accuse you of that vile and atrocious arrogance and call you to defend your position against the following quotes from LOTR and the Silmarillion (words of Tolkien himself! ), reproduced from an earlier discussion on a similar topic.

-----

Morgoth:

From splendour he fell through arrogance to contempt for all things save himself, a spirit wasteful and pitiless. Understanding he turned to subtlety in perverting to his own will all that he would use, until he became a liar without shame. He began with the desire of Light, but when he could not possess it for himself alone, he descended through fire and wrath into a great burning, down into Darkness. And darkness he used most in his evil works upon Arda, and filled it with fear for all living things.

In the powers and knowledge of all the other Valar he had part, but he turned them to evil purposes, and squandered his strength in violence and tyranny. For he coveted Arda and all that was in it, desiring the kingship of Manwë and dominion over the realms of his peers.

But he desired rather to subdue to his will both Elves and Men, envying the gifts with which Ilúvatar promised to endow them; and he wished himself to have subject and servants, and to be called Lord, and to be a master over other wills.

Then Melkor saw what was done, and that the Valar walked on Earth as powers visible, clad in the raiment of the World, and were lovely and glorious to see, and blissful, and that the Earth was becoming as a garden for their delight, for its turmoils were subdued. His envy grew then the greater within him; and he also took visible form, but because of his mood and the malice that burned in him that form was dark and terrible. And he descended upon Arda in power and majesty greater than any other of the Valar, as a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with smoke and fire; and the light of the eyes of Melkor was like a flame that withers with heat and pierces with a deadly cold.

But ever the Noldor feared most the treachery of those of their own kin, who had been thralls in Angband; for Morgoth used some of these for his evil purposes, and feigning to give them liberty sent them abroad, but their wills were chained to his, and they strayed only to come back to him again.

But in the north Melkor built his strength, and he slept not, but watched, and laboured; and the evil things that he had perverted walked abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread...And in that dark time Melkor bred many other monsters of divers shapes and kinds that long troubled the world...

...all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes.

...he [Manwë] saw not to the depths of Melkor’s heart, and did not perceive that all love had departed from him for ever.

...Then Melkor lusted for the Silmarils, and the very memory of their radiance was a gnawing fire in his heart. From that time forth, inflamed by this desire, he sought ever more eagerly how he should destroy Fëanor and end the friendship of the Valar and the Elves; but he dissembled his purposes with cunning, and nothing of his malice could yet be seen in the semblance that he wore. Long was he at work, and slow at first and barren was his labour. But he that sows lies in the end shall not lack of a harvest, and soon he may rest from toil indeed while others reap and sow in his stead.

[Quote]...Thus with lies and evil whisperings and false counsel Melkor kindled the hearts of the Noldor to strife; and of their quarrels came at length the end of the high days of Valinor

and the evening of its ancient glory.

Sauron:

Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.

...Sauron, greatest and most terrible of the servants of Morgoth, who in the Sindarin tongue was named Gorthaur, came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower upon Tol Sirion. Sauron was become now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master of shadows and of phantoms, foul in wisdom, cruel in strength, misshaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, lord of werewolves; his dominion was torment.

So, now, let's review. Even for Lalwendë who has her fingers in her ears and isn't listening anymore.

• Arrogant and contemptful of everything except themselves
• Liars without shame
• Selfish in the extreme
• Use fear and intimidation to dominate other wills
• Turn good things to evil purposes
• Usurpers of the rightful realms of others
• Coveting everything for themselves
• Appear in dark and terrible forms
• Tortured, maimed, killed, enslaved, perverted the elves
• Completely loveless
• Envious, jealous and bitter
• Ever striving to insert strife and dissent
• Cunning dissemblers and deceivers
• Instrumental in the downfall of Numenor and the consequent deaths of almost an entire race
• And in the end complete losers and failures.

Now you tell me how you can simultaneously maintain your mutually-contradicting positions of "Melkor is the Benevolent Savior and Master" and "Tolkien's work is untouchable. "

I respectfully look forward to your reply.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Thenamir

So, now, let's review. Even for Lalwendë who has her fingers in her ears and isn't listening anymore.

Que?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Thenamir

I respectfully look forward to your reply.

Melkor:

• Melkor liked Beren.

• He thought Tinuviel and Varda were 'hot.'

• Melkor invented orcs. Without such creatures, we never would have been blessed with hearing Viggo Mortensen say, "orc" like he had a clothes pin on his nose.

• Someone has to play Judas in the play.

• Who else was mighty enough to restrain the Balrogs from flying around Thangorodrim like bats?

• As stated, flour comes from milling. Melkor was the millstone.

Sauron:

• He pumped up the Witch-King in RotK.

• Sauron started the Werewolf-game madness.

• Without Annatar, jewelry in Middle Earth just wouldn't be the same - just necklaces and shiny brooches.

And the most probable (and coherent?) reply will be that all that you've stated is one point of view, from the Elves and their lackeys, and we never get to read Melkor's side, as, well, he lost, and to the victors go the publishing rights...

[QUOTE=Thenamir]Alright, Neithan Tol Turambar, I'm calling you out. Your verbose and insufferable tirades, your name-calling, and your general attitude (not to mention your deluded self-proclamation as Lord Sauron's "herald and messenger") have earned you the negative rep you so richly deserve. Prepare to defend yourself.

In your introductory post on the "Introduce yourself here" thread, you posted the following:


Now aside from the fact that you revere the Learned Professor's work so much that you can't even spell his name correctly, your entire premise in beginning and carrying on this thread is entirely antithetical to every spoken and written opinion of Tolkien himself. I defy you to produce one iota, a single scintilla of evidence to show that Tolkien himself, whom you claim to revere and defend, intended that Melkor (or Sauron) was the master, savior, and liberator which you claim. Otherwise you are attempting to alter and revise that work of which you say
I agree with that sentiment, and I here and now accuse you of that vile and atrocious arrogance and call you to defend your position against the following quotes from LOTR and the Silmarillion (words of Tolkien himself! ), reproduced from an earlier discussion on a similar topic.

-----

Morgoth:

...Thus with lies and evil whisperings and false counsel Melkor kindled the hearts of the Noldor to strife; and of their quarrels came at length the end of the high days of Valinor

Sauron:




So, now, let's review. Even for Lalwendë who has her fingers in her ears and isn't listening anymore.

• Arrogant and contemptful of everything except themselves
• Liars without shame
• Selfish in the extreme
• Use fear and intimidation to dominate other wills
• Turn good things to evil purposes
• Usurpers of the rightful realms of others
• Coveting everything for themselves
• Appear in dark and terrible forms
• Tortured, maimed, killed, enslaved, perverted the elves
• Completely loveless
• Envious, jealous and bitter
• Ever striving to insert strife and dissent
• Cunning dissemblers and deceivers
• Instrumental in the downfall of Numenor and the consequent deaths of almost an entire race
• And in the end complete losers and failures.

Now you tell me how you can simultaneously maintain your mutually-contradicting positions of "Melkor is the Benevolent Savior and Master" and "Tolkien's work is untouchable. "

I respectfully look forward to your reply.

You have agreed with me in a circular way at every point, but cannot make the proper conclusion at the end of your reasoning. Let me say this: I agree with you.
What incredible examples of the worlds finest writer. I thank you. For Tolkien was, I firmly believe the finest writer of all time and his passages arouse in me the most brilliant and compelling visions I have ever experienced. He can conjure up images of power so strong I feel them and see them he moves me!!!!
Your right. Tolkien did write those passages. He also wrote the narrative of Morgoth's perspective, an inseperable part of the whole. Melkor has glory within the revelation as an inextricably intertwined part of the story without which[EVIL] their can be no good. Think Man! By God you are at the very door!!
IN THE ABSENCE OF DARKNESS LIGHT HAS NO GLORY. EVIL REFLECTS THE GLORY OF GOD.

I laboriously type again....

"Then Illuvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Illuvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, "Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not it's uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

Now you think about that. And if you still don't know what I am doing here, then I declare outside of all eccentricity and sarcasim and from the depths of my true heart say to you sir you have no understanding. Please do not react, THINK.

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by alatar

Did Melkor just need a true friend, a hug, more attention from Eru?


alatar begins to look for Melkor's address to which to send a Teddy-gram..

I have always attested such writings as Marcus Aurelius' Meditations to one fateful day in third grade, February 14th, when the poor writer received not a single Valentine. Perhaps writing in his journal was not manly enough for Melkor, or maybe he lacked the artistry, and so resorted to self-destructiveness, which naturally grew into overall destructive behavior.

Ah, maybe that's it - he desired a creative outlet but Eru failed to give him even enough skill to draw stick figures or write nonsensical haikus?

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Originally Posted by The Might

2. "If I can speak from experience, when inventing a character, especially a villain, it is difficult to get one's mind into the right position."
I disagree, look at Alien, he's evil and doesn't change a bit

He doesnt count.
And he has changed... a bit. If anything he's got more stupid as episodes have gone on.
But then, he's not supposed to be a deep character. Remember, I put very little thought into his creation. What I was referring to are serious characters for Serious stories. Seriously.

Perhaps it can be said that the longer the story, the more complex the characters have to get. This can also be confusing for the writer. (Come back when Phantom and Alien is on Episode 1007 )

[The Might]

Serious did change...though he's not a villain
He had his old skool look for a while, then Bethberry's mustard spray face, and so he needed a holiday, definitely more complex then Alien

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Eomer

Like a nasty, hateful teenager.....with superpowers! Effects will not be pleasant.

Melkor: "Are you disrespectin' me? Am I bovvered? Do I look bovvered? Look at my my Mace, does it look bovvered? Eh? Mace? Bovvered? Bovvered? Mace? I aint Bovvered!"

Originally Posted by alatar

Did Melkor just need a true friend, a hug, more attention from Eru?

Flamin' Nora! Its David Cameron! "Hug A Minion"

I'm more into the idea that Melkor just wanted to do his own thing and went off to do it, all to no avail as Eru just wasn't going to let him. That makes the whole Melkor story even more horrible because he was created with the potential to do what he did, i.e. rebel, but without the potential to bring that to complete fruition. And of course Eru also turned Melkor's brutality into beauty - into snow and ice, and into the potential to be a hero. Without Melkor there would have been no heroes either.

Originally Posted by alatar

So, having no 'earthly' accomplishments about which to boast, Melkor has fallen to name-dropping. He was 'owned' by Beren and Luthien, and I doubt that Melkor and the Camlost ever shook hands, even the one that remained, in this life or the thereafter (assuming that Melkor could even wiggle a hand free of his chains). Does Melkor know Paris Hilton too?

By the by, I've glad that this topic has arisen as it's given me a new perspective on Melkor. Assuming Eru 'begat' in some way Melkor, technically that could mean that Eru is Melkor's mommy. So, while many of the other Valar are married, Melkor sits alone, living in Angband, as I now see it, in his mother's basement! From there he dreams and schemes, and in the end it's all for not. When, perchance, a beautiful maiden stops by, he can only look. Her singing makes him impotent..I mean, ineffective for a time, and she walks out with the guy that that brought her to the dance (which, as we've read, is now a friend of the Dark Lord, because that's as close as he's going to get to fair Tinuviel). Wow! And all this time I thought the guy scary, but now realize how sad he was.

Anyway, that may be a harsh way of saying that Melkor had no or lost his creative powers as life became all about him. What does this say about giving one's children too much? Spoiled is a really fitting word here.

And I'm not even going to bring up that Melkor had to chain Húrin to the mountainside just for some company...

But I do understand the point that Melkor did serve a purpose, as without him, the First Age may be summed up to be "The Elves had tea; Men showed up and made coffee." Boring!

...but to Urin[hurin] he gave a measure of vision, so that much of those things that befell his wife and [daughter] he might see and be helpless to aid, for magic held him in that high place. "Behold!" said Melko, "the life of [your daughter] shall be accounted a matter for tears wherever elves and men are gathered for the telling of tales."; but Hurin said: "at least none shall pity [her] for this, that [she] had a craven for father."