Did JRRT encourage new ME stories?

[davem]

Seems Lal said a lot of this while I was writing this post, but I'll add it anyway.

Sorry, but JRRT didn't create a myth – for all the reasons Lal gave. One man cannot create a mythology. A mythology is the remnant of a religious system, not simply a set of stories.

What Tolkien did was create a pseudo-mythology, & did it so well that he fooled a lot of his readers into thinking it genuine – or at least that it has the potential to become genuine. And that's an interesting angle.

You could treat Tolkien's creation as a mythology, & open it up to other contributors. Yet at that point it would cease to be what it is & begin to become something wholly other. Tolkien's original would become no more than a starting point, & ultimately his writings would have no more 'authority' than those of any other writer – that's the central point about a true myth – no version has authority – some may be seen as more 'authentic' – but even that is a value judgement. No. As soon as you declare Tolkien's writings to be a 'myth' you turn Tolkien himself into one among many creators of M-e.

IF you're not prepared to relegate Tolkien to that position you're already denying that the Legendarium is a true mythology. If it’s a myth then its up for grabs for anyone to do anything with it. If its not up for grabs in that way then its not a true myth –which is a possession of mankind to do with as it will.

The idea of 'authorising' certain individuals to continue the story is a clear denial of the idea that we are dealing with a 'myth' in the true sense. And if its not a 'myth' then it’s the creation of one individual – a work of Art rather than a myth, & from that point of view the artist is the only true source.

Sorry, but the Legendarium is no more a 'mythology' than the work of an artist who produced a new 'medieval' manuscript by using authentic materials & bindings & cleverly aging the product so as to make it look like it was centuries old. That's effectively what Tolkien did.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Yet, Mr Davem, would you say that it was Tolkien's wish to create a mythology? He did say that he wanted a mythology for England. Yet at later points he describes Middle Earth as being this earth at 'a different level of imagination'. The constant connections with this world that one finds in the Legendarium (as are mentioned in HoTH1) sort of point to this.

So, coming swiftly to the question of this thread "Did JRRT encourage new ME stories?" I would say... possibly. I do not know if, by the time he had got as far as he had with it, the Legendarium had become something he regarded as set in stone or did not want to be messed with, but the original intention was possibly for a mythology that would grow. Perhaps when Tolkien became more engrossed in his legends, the characters felt more like his own, so to speak. This is all assumptions though.

The thing is, when a tale is so well crafted and complex, it becomes difficult to say what should be added other than details about characters here and there. In some way, that is what tends to happen with most Mythologies, there is a set number of main characters who are explored and investigated through the many tales about them. New characters may come along, but often they only serve as 'scaffolding' to an original character's development by a separate author. Another view to take is that where so much of the story is written from one man's perspective and own views and biases, when others come into the Frey, it is difficult to maintain something that 'fits in' to the world that Tolkien made.

I think that it is probable that Tolkien would originally have wanted his 'mythology' to grow by the hands of others. But I think it has become too much 'his own' and meddling often goes unnoticed. That doesnt mean, I think, that fans should stop exploring or questioning a character from the story, even in the medium of their own story. The thing is, that these new stories just won't become par of the cannon.

[drigel]

You guys are killing me. When did JRRT NOT discourage new ME stories from other persons than himself? Riddle me that question.

[Morwen]

Originally posted by drigel

You guys are killing me. When did JRRT NOT discourage new ME stories from other persons than himself? Riddle me that question.

That can't be the question. Unless an author specifically encourages others to make additions to his works, there can't be a presumption that this is what he intended.

[drigel]

Morwen,

That was my point. Prove to me that he never discouraged new writings from other folks, then the conjecture that he might have encouraged new writings, will somewhat make sense.

[Morwen]

Hmm....seems I misread you initial post.

But yes, I think the presumption with respect to any author has to be that he/she doesn't intend other people to expand on his/her work unless otherwise suggested.

[Lalwendë]

Do not laugh! But once upon a time (my crest has long since fallen) I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic, to the level of fairy story - the larger founded on the lesser in contact with the earth, the lesser drawing splendour from the large backcloths - which I could dedicate simply to: to England; to my country. It should possess the tone and quality that I desired, somewhat cool and clear, be redolent of our 'air' (the clime and soil of the North West, meaning Britain and the hither parts of Europe: not Italy or the Aegean, still less the East), and, while possessing (if I could achieve it) the fair elusive beauty that some call Celtic (though it is rarely found in genuine ancient Celtic things), it should be 'high', purged of the gross, and fit for the more adult mind of a land now steeped in poetry. I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama. Absurd.

Stuck that on again as it's always useful to see the words

The thing is, he never ever wanted to create anything for England. He wanted to dedicate his Art to England which is a very different thing. he wanted to encapsulate elements of Englishness in his work (which is why I believe an understanding of the nature of true Englishness is as vital as an understanding of anything else if such things be needed - and indeed many arguments I have stem from people not always knowing the nuances of Englishness - things you cannot learn from a Hugh Grant film ).

However, while we are all bellyaching here, there are two things which wrap up what he says here and they are:

Do not laugh! But once upon a time (my crest has long since fallen)

and

Absurd.

So is he being entirely serious? I suspect that like all English people, he might occasionally think of some fancy ideas, but he dismisses them as just that, fancy ideas. Strangely, his work does have the Northern Air, and it does read just like a real mythology (though we have a lot more of it than any genuine mythology and should think ourselves lucky). He really did succeed in creating a faux mythology. He was superb at his Art.

But really, you have it in a nutshell here:

That doesnt mean, I think, that fans should stop exploring or questioning a character from the story, even in the medium of their own story. The thing is, that these new stories just won't become par of the cannon.

No, nothing wrong in having fun with fan-fic, and you are currently allowed to write it (though the estate could stop you if they wanted, those names being Trade Marks) and even publish it on a not for profit basis. My objection is that given all of this, why on earth do people want more if not to either a. leech off Tolkien's name and get some spurious name for themselves or b. make money, in which case, such people would be despicable.