High Elves and the Balrogs

[Boromir88]

Galin, already mentioned this, lets not mix two different periods of time here where Tolkien began altering and changing his Balrogs.

I know the Balrogs were of the Maiar, but it seems unbelievable that a mere high elf like Ecthelion and Glorfindel could've slain them (more unbelievable is Echthelion who was able to slay 3 Balrogs)~Gorthaur

I think this is where the 'unbelievability' is coming from. As when Tolkien first started writing about his Balrogs, they were an entire race of their own. There were 'armies' and 'hosts' of Balrogs and they were much weaker than what the Tolkien's 'final' Balrogs became.

I don't know when Tolkien decided to switch things around, but eventually he made the Balrogs corrupted Maiar and as Galin remarks reduces their number down to at the very most...seven (HoME X: Morgoth's Ring; Myths Transformed).

So, the time you are talking about when Ecthelion slew 3 of them, was an earlier time when Tolkien had the idea that the Balrogs were an entire race of their own (not Maiar) and therefor far less powerful. That might be where part of the 'unbelievability' is coming from, because I agree that it would be unbelievable for any elf to slay 3 Maiar!

However, it's not so unbelievable that an Elf could take down a Balrog. Tolkien wrote a story where the lines of 'power' always mix and mingle together and there is no clear 'hierarchy' of who is more powerful. And we have to remember when we generally say that 'Elves are more powerful than Men' that doesn't mean we can assume that every elf is more powerful than every man. Just as I dont think one can assume every Maiar is equal in power, and every Balrog was equal in power. Just keep that in mind too, we're not dealing with a strict, rigid 'hierarchy of power,' but one that is just all meshed together. That is why Elves end up slaying Maiar, and Hobbits end up doing serious damage to a giant kick butt spider...etc.

Lets also not forget that Ecthelion and Glorfindel are extremely powerful Elves in their own right. They were Noldor Elven Lords, not your simple ordinary elf. They had also both seen the light of the two trees, and any elf who did, we are told grew in power.

Now if a Man slew a Balrog (even a 'great man' such as Turin) I would say that is 'unbelievable.' As it appears to take more than being a skilled and powerful fighter to slay a Balrog. Gandalf was locked in a 10 day battle with Durin's Bane and there was more than two foes who were crossing swords (or in this case one with a whip and the other with a sword):

'Long I fell, and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned. Then we plunged into the deep water and all was dark...'

'We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him...'

and...

'Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.' Suddenly Gandalf laughed. 'But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is not that enough?'

(All quotes come from The White Rider).

This was a 10-day struggle amongst two Maiar. And as Gandalf says to the Fellowship 'This is a beyond any of you.' (Aragorn and Boromir are no chumps when it comes to 'fighters' amongst mortals). Gandalf was already weary, however in this case he could use his full Maiar powers. Gandalf was just restricted from showing his true form/powers when there were Elves and Men around...well here he's battling a Balrog under and on top of mountains. There is no one around to see it, and as I think is clear from Gandalf's description, he let loose his Maiar abilities in this great 'Battle of the Peak.'

I guess the bottomline here I'm trying to get at, is it's not so unbelievable for some of the most powerful Elves around (Glorfindel and Ecthelion) to slay a Balrog...as these two chaps were right up there in that 'greatest elf' category. However, if a mortal slew a balrog, than I would say that is rather unbelievable, because I think it takes a certain power that mortals don't possess.

[obloquy]

Only three Balrogs need to exist: Durin's Bane, Gothmog, and Glorfindel's Bane. These are the three that receive solid canonicity by being included in writings that Tolkien himself saw published. Tolkien reduced their early multitude, as has been mentioned, and indicates that he might have removed all but just these three principals ("3 or at most 7"). This adjustment ought to be seen as an implemented change, since none of the texts that conflict with it were ever published by Tolkien himself, and were, per his written intention, obsolete with particular regard to balrog numbers. The Fall of Gondolin has almost no bearing on balrog discussion.

Edit: it occurs to me that Gothmog may not have had his canonicity cemented as the other two, but I don't have time right now to check. In any case, there's no indication that Tolkien intended Gothmog's fate to change.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

So would Galadriel not need to fear the Balrog of Moria, then (besides the necromancer in dol guldur)?

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

So would Galadriel not need to fear the Balrog of Moria, then (besides the necromancer in dol guldur)?

She was high in magic.. but i don't know what Galadriel would have been like with a blade :P And they were all fought with weapons i believe

Originally Posted by Galin

Tolkien never updated this tale in long form beyond that which was published in Unfinished Tales. I see no great reason to assume a character named 'Rog' killed even one Balrog in the theoretical 'rest of' the version begun decades after The Book of Lost Tales was abandoned.

Ok so the later Balrogs were of a different breed perhaps, i know nobody has said it, but would that make Gothmog less powerful than Durins Bane? High Captain as he was, he was surely one of the first Balrogs...or is it that the other Balrogs of the time were not Maiar? or maybe that they were just not as powerful? I don't know, and alot of you chaps have more knowledge than i on this.

On Rog, he was reputed in the book to be the "strongest" of the Lords of Noldor in Gondolin, strong in strength? or magic? I think it is possible to assume strength, seeing as he isn't really a key player in Middle Earths history. Yet, though he alone might not have slain a Balrog, his people the "Hammer of Wrath", a medley of the most skilled Noldor were responsible for multiple Balrog casualties.

This is confusing me!

We have Fingon fending off one, and then being defeated by the two. Feanor who held his ground against several until he was overcome. Other counts of High Elves of the first degree being slain. Yet others were successful against one alone; Glorfindel, Ecthelion and Gandalf.

To reiterate Fingolfin's achievements... he eternally wounded Morgoth, one of the most powerful Valar. So it is possible to say that by fighting capabilities, one can impair or defeat a Maiar... maybe even a Valar if they're that hardcore? Taking into consideration Fingolfin's status, Noldorin King of immense fighting skill (ranked above Feanor in valour) and undoubtedley in magic also.

The slaying of Sauron, by Elendil, Gil-Galad and Isildur.. though he didn't actually completely decease... it's possible to admit he was defeated...

I remain inquisitive on the subject and eagerly await the shedding of light from other members!

[Boromir88]

So would Galadriel not need to fear the Balrog of Moria, then (besides the necromancer in dol guldur)?~Gorthaur

Well it's not so much that Galadriel would not fear a Balrog (I think even Gandalf displayed fear towards Durin's Bane). As no matter how powerful you are, a Balrog is a tough nut to crack and not a foe anyone would look forward to facing.

But, if you are asking would Galadriel be able to slay a Balrog, I'd say she's got a pretty good shot. As Galadriel is tough in her own regards...not just 'magically' but also as far as fighting abilities go too:

'Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years...and she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth.'~Unfinished Tales; The History of Galadriel and Celeborn

and...

'Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Feanor in the defence of her mother's kin, she did not turn back.'~ibid

So, I would say Galadriel was someone who also knew how to use a sword. Giving her a 'pretty good shot' in my opinion.

[obloquy]

Not only was Galadriel (beside Feanor) the greatest of the Noldor, in fact, but she was also listed with Feanor and Luthien as one of the greatest of all the Eldar.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Not only was Galadriel (beside Feanor) the greatest of the Noldor, in fact, but she was also listed with Feanor and Luthien as one of the greatest of all the Eldar.

I really can't see Galadriel being a physical threat to a Balrog, it may well appear sexist but i just don't think she's tough enough. She may well be dubbed "greatest" but that cannot apply to her physical capabilities - i think it more suits her wisdom and "magic" being that she was always the first to spot the bad egg, as it were.

By going by that concept, could Luthien defeat a Balrog? one doubts it further still. Though she did manage to seduce Morgoth into a state of reverie... granted! but i still do not doubt a Balrog would dismember her... or Galadriel for that matter.

She may have been prominent with her athletic capabilities in her youth, but running fast and jumping are abit out of context methinks :P lol.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Not only was Galadriel (beside Feanor) the greatest of the Noldor, in fact, but she was also listed with Feanor and Luthien as one of the greatest of all the Eldar.

Where is the evidence of Tolkien stating this? It's hard to believe because he'd always seem to downplay Galadriel while he augments much of Elrond's power.

Raynor, with regards to protecting Lothlorien I would say she had the aid of Nenya. As that was the purpose of the Elven Rings. However, the Elven Rings were not made to enhance it's bearers power, so any display of power 'or magic' of Galadriel I would say was all her own ability. As the Elven Rings did not lend out power boosts in the way the One Ring was made to do.

But I don't think Nenya gifted Galadriel with much power of her own, as Boro suggested. For it was not the purpose of the Elven Rings

Are you sure? I just find it impossible for Galadriel to have cast such potent spells without giving some credit to her ring. She drove back the glooms of Dol Guldor and hid Eorl's hosts from Sauron himself across Anduin. Her own brother, Finrod, couldn't even last against Sauron, yet she was able to contest him in many ways (reading his mind, creating the phial, etc...). Don't you find it strange that she was able to achieve all this in the 3rd age when she was able to openly use Nenya? I do not doubt her innate strength, after all, wasn't she schooled by Melian (maia of great power) herself for many years? She also learned much from Yavanna. But then she also asked Frodo, "Did not Gandalf tell you that the Rings gave power according to the measure of their wearer?" -- which can only mean that the Three also enhanced the innate strength of their bearers. And Galadriel, being a powerful elf, would access to much of Nenya's powers, right? For if the Three's powers were merely in preservation, then how come Rivendell lacked that spiritual, ethereal atmosphere that is so felt in Lothlorien? And so that is why I think galadriel could hold her own against the balrog of Morgoth (lesser than Sauron) because she was one of the mighty (along with Finrod, Fingolfin, and Feanor) and in addtion: a great ring of power in her keeping.