High Elves and the Balrogs

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

So would Galadriel not need to fear the Balrog of Moria, then (besides the necromancer in dol guldur)?

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

So would Galadriel not need to fear the Balrog of Moria, then (besides the necromancer in dol guldur)?

She was high in magic.. but i don't know what Galadriel would have been like with a blade :P And they were all fought with weapons i believe

Originally Posted by Galin

Tolkien never updated this tale in long form beyond that which was published in Unfinished Tales. I see no great reason to assume a character named 'Rog' killed even one Balrog in the theoretical 'rest of' the version begun decades after The Book of Lost Tales was abandoned.

Ok so the later Balrogs were of a different breed perhaps, i know nobody has said it, but would that make Gothmog less powerful than Durins Bane? High Captain as he was, he was surely one of the first Balrogs...or is it that the other Balrogs of the time were not Maiar? or maybe that they were just not as powerful? I don't know, and alot of you chaps have more knowledge than i on this.

On Rog, he was reputed in the book to be the "strongest" of the Lords of Noldor in Gondolin, strong in strength? or magic? I think it is possible to assume strength, seeing as he isn't really a key player in Middle Earths history. Yet, though he alone might not have slain a Balrog, his people the "Hammer of Wrath", a medley of the most skilled Noldor were responsible for multiple Balrog casualties.

This is confusing me!

We have Fingon fending off one, and then being defeated by the two. Feanor who held his ground against several until he was overcome. Other counts of High Elves of the first degree being slain. Yet others were successful against one alone; Glorfindel, Ecthelion and Gandalf.

To reiterate Fingolfin's achievements... he eternally wounded Morgoth, one of the most powerful Valar. So it is possible to say that by fighting capabilities, one can impair or defeat a Maiar... maybe even a Valar if they're that hardcore? Taking into consideration Fingolfin's status, Noldorin King of immense fighting skill (ranked above Feanor in valour) and undoubtedley in magic also.

The slaying of Sauron, by Elendil, Gil-Galad and Isildur.. though he didn't actually completely decease... it's possible to admit he was defeated...

I remain inquisitive on the subject and eagerly await the shedding of light from other members!

[Boromir88]

So would Galadriel not need to fear the Balrog of Moria, then (besides the necromancer in dol guldur)?~Gorthaur

Well it's not so much that Galadriel would not fear a Balrog (I think even Gandalf displayed fear towards Durin's Bane). As no matter how powerful you are, a Balrog is a tough nut to crack and not a foe anyone would look forward to facing.

But, if you are asking would Galadriel be able to slay a Balrog, I'd say she's got a pretty good shot. As Galadriel is tough in her own regards...not just 'magically' but also as far as fighting abilities go too:

'Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years...and she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth.'~Unfinished Tales; The History of Galadriel and Celeborn

and...

'Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Feanor in the defence of her mother's kin, she did not turn back.'~ibid

So, I would say Galadriel was someone who also knew how to use a sword. Giving her a 'pretty good shot' in my opinion.

[obloquy]

Not only was Galadriel (beside Feanor) the greatest of the Noldor, in fact, but she was also listed with Feanor and Luthien as one of the greatest of all the Eldar.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Not only was Galadriel (beside Feanor) the greatest of the Noldor, in fact, but she was also listed with Feanor and Luthien as one of the greatest of all the Eldar.

I really can't see Galadriel being a physical threat to a Balrog, it may well appear sexist but i just don't think she's tough enough. She may well be dubbed "greatest" but that cannot apply to her physical capabilities - i think it more suits her wisdom and "magic" being that she was always the first to spot the bad egg, as it were.

By going by that concept, could Luthien defeat a Balrog? one doubts it further still. Though she did manage to seduce Morgoth into a state of reverie... granted! but i still do not doubt a Balrog would dismember her... or Galadriel for that matter.

She may have been prominent with her athletic capabilities in her youth, but running fast and jumping are abit out of context methinks :P lol.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Hammerhand

I really can't see Galadriel being a physical threat to a Balrog, it may well appear sexist but i just don't think she's tough enough. She may well be dubbed "greatest" but that cannot apply to her physical capabilities - i think it more suits her wisdom and "magic" being that she was always the first to spot the bad egg, as it were.

By going by that concept, could Luthien defeat a Balrog? one doubts it further still. Though she did manage to seduce Morgoth into a state of reverie... granted! but i still do not doubt a Balrog would dismember her... or Galadriel for that matter.

She may have been prominent with her athletic capabilities in her youth, but running fast and jumping are abit out of context methinks :P lol.

Well, but Lúthien could surely sing Balrog to death (cf. Finrod's duel with Sauron) or something like that. That's something I can imagine accordingly to Gandalf's "I had to use the Command Word" escapade by the door, and here I think Lúthien might have been in a bit of advantage against Gandalf, as he was weary and she, unless after a long journey through Angband or something like that, would be full of youth and so, it will be similar situation as with the Werewolves.

About Galadriel... well, that's actually something I can't indeed imagine, but I think we have to accept that she was capable of fighting. And I am sure she will be at least close to defeating a Balrog by sword, something like Fingolfin vs. Morgoth, like seven blows, avoiding his slashes, and maybe even in some unexpected moment hitting him, piercing his heart or whatever and... the end. Yes, I cannot imagine her doing that and I strongly disagree with drawing an amazon-like picture of Galadriel, but somehow, she surely would do that. That we cannot imagine it is our problem, not hers.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, but Lúthien could surely sing Balrog to death (cf. Finrod's duel with Sauron) or something like that. That's something I can imagine accordingly to Gandalf's "I had to use the Command Word" escapade by the door, and here I think Lúthien might have been in a bit of advantage against Gandalf, as he was weary and she, unless after a long journey through Angband or something like that, would be full of youth and so, it will be similar situation as with the Werewolves.

About Galadriel... well, that's actually something I can't indeed imagine, but I think we have to accept that she was capable of fighting. And I am sure she will be at least close to defeating a Balrog by sword, something like Fingolfin vs. Morgoth, like seven blows, avoiding his slashes, and maybe even in some unexpected moment hitting him, piercing his heart or whatever and... the end. Yes, I cannot imagine her doing that and I strongly disagree with drawing an amazon-like picture of Galadriel, but somehow, she surely would do that. That we cannot imagine it is our problem, not hers.

So we're all in agreement that no she-elf could possibly threaten a Balrog? :P lol
She'd probably be late for the duel anyway!

lol, well i suppose there would be a different concept to fighting to what we know with the addition of "magic" and species. No average human woman has ever been given any recognition, which can only mean that Elvish women were as competant as the men.. or close to, as regards physical exertion. Therefore, saying Galadriel was as we have defined her, i see no reason why she wouldn't be able to defend herself aptly - i just find it hard to believe, mainly because of the real world... and because she isn't depicted so much as a fighter, but more of a wise and majestic speciman

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Not only was Galadriel (beside Feanor) the greatest of the Noldor, in fact, but she was also listed with Feanor and Luthien as one of the greatest of all the Eldar.

Where is the evidence of Tolkien stating this? It's hard to believe because he'd always seem to downplay Galadriel while he augments much of Elrond's power.

Raynor, with regards to protecting Lothlorien I would say she had the aid of Nenya. As that was the purpose of the Elven Rings. However, the Elven Rings were not made to enhance it's bearers power, so any display of power 'or magic' of Galadriel I would say was all her own ability. As the Elven Rings did not lend out power boosts in the way the One Ring was made to do.

But I don't think Nenya gifted Galadriel with much power of her own, as Boro suggested. For it was not the purpose of the Elven Rings

Are you sure? I just find it impossible for Galadriel to have cast such potent spells without giving some credit to her ring. She drove back the glooms of Dol Guldor and hid Eorl's hosts from Sauron himself across Anduin. Her own brother, Finrod, couldn't even last against Sauron, yet she was able to contest him in many ways (reading his mind, creating the phial, etc...). Don't you find it strange that she was able to achieve all this in the 3rd age when she was able to openly use Nenya? I do not doubt her innate strength, after all, wasn't she schooled by Melian (maia of great power) herself for many years? She also learned much from Yavanna. But then she also asked Frodo, "Did not Gandalf tell you that the Rings gave power according to the measure of their wearer?" -- which can only mean that the Three also enhanced the innate strength of their bearers. And Galadriel, being a powerful elf, would access to much of Nenya's powers, right? For if the Three's powers were merely in preservation, then how come Rivendell lacked that spiritual, ethereal atmosphere that is so felt in Lothlorien? And so that is why I think galadriel could hold her own against the balrog of Morgoth (lesser than Sauron) because she was one of the mighty (along with Finrod, Fingolfin, and Feanor) and in addtion: a great ring of power in her keeping.

[Raynor]

I believe obloquy is referring to HoME XII:

Originally Posted by The Shibboleth

Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years.
...
These two kinsfolk [Galadriel and Feanor], the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever.*
...
* Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Luthien Tinuviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves.

[obloquy]

Yes, thanks Raynor. The quote obviously refers to a time before the exodus of the Noldor (Feanor and Galadriel were still "of Valinor"), so we know that it even includes the Vanyar. The wording leaves room--possibly but not necessarily--for Elwe somewhere below Luthien. Besides him, I can think of no other candidates in Beleriand.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Are you sure? I just find it impossible for Galadriel to have cast such potent spells without giving some credit to her ring. She drove back the glooms of Dol Guldor and hid Eorl's hosts from Sauron himself across Anduin.

If you read what I wrote, then I was saying that particularly this one was probably coming from the Ring's power.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Her own brother, Finrod, couldn't even last against Sauron, yet she was able to contest him in many ways (reading his mind, creating the phial, etc...).

If you are suggesting "Finrod was a loser", then I have to strongly disagree. His contest with Sauron was not some stupid loss, quite the contrary, I believe we can sort of compare it to Fingolfin vs. Morgoth. Or Gandalf vs. Balrog when he was closing the door to Chamber of Mazarbul. And I doubt you would call Fingolfin a loser.
Nevertheless, what you said, for example the "reading mind" thing, does not need to have, I think, anything in common with the Ring itself. Quite the contrary, I think it's exactly the example of how powerful she was. After all, Galadriel is mentioned as the most powerful in mind right after Fëanor, and that's exactly what you see here. And yes, Finrod was therefore probably not as powerful as her - as all the Elves (but he was not a loser).

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Don't you find it strange that she was able to achieve all this in the 3rd age when she was able to openly use Nenya? I do not doubt her innate strength, after all, wasn't she schooled by Melian (maia of great power) herself for many years? She also learned much from Yavanna. But then she also asked Frodo, "Did not Gandalf tell you that the Rings gave power according to the measure of their wearer?" -- which can only mean that the Three also enhanced the innate strength of their bearers. And Galadriel, being a powerful elf, would access to much of Nenya's powers, right?

Just one note before start - Galadriel, as neither of the Elf lords, was not able to use the power of the Ring openly. Just rhetorics, I know - but let's not confuse it.

Okay. Now to the main point. What the Three do I already mentioned in the post before where I quoted Elrond, and I'm not going to return to it, it's all there. Just your claim now does not in any way contest it. The words "Did not Gandalf tell you that the Rings gave power according to the measure of their wearer?" mean no more and no less that the Rings give less power when a less powerful person wields them, greater power when a more powerful person wields them. Less powerful person can make a mosquito flee away from him, more powerful person can stop the Ringwraith. But it does not, as you deduce, based with no evidence, enhance the innate strength of their bearers. Galadriel, being a powerful elf, would access to much of Nenya's powers, right - that's okay. But these powers are for making, healing... whatever. Nothing about boosting own powers.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

For if the Three's powers were merely in preservation, then how come Rivendell lacked that spiritual, ethereal atmosphere that is so felt in Lothlorien?

Lórien is something else than Rivendell because a different person is it's - let's say, ruler. But surely you don't say that Rivendell didn't have its own atmosphere? It had, just a different one. I don't actually understand what are you going to say with this. The only difference could therefore stem from the Ringbearers' attitudes and personal aims. If for example a Balrog had an Elven Ring and wanted to use it to preserve his own realm, it would have also a different atmosphere: let's say burning fires and everlasting darkness. If the Witch-King did something like this, his realm would have been a moonlit freezing place full of fear. The same it is with the Rivendell-Lórien difference.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

And so that is why I think galadriel could hold her own against the balrog of Morgoth (lesser than Sauron) because she was one of the mighty (along with Finrod, Fingolfin, and Feanor) and in addtion: a great ring of power in her keeping.

I believe that surely she would be able to face the balrog, but because of her own strength in battle (whether physical or spiritual), Nenya has nothing to do with it. Galadriel could shroud Lórien in mist with Nenya to cover it from the Balrog descending from the mountains, but in battle, the Ring won't help her much. It was made for understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained - and surely nothing of that could be of any use in a duel.