The Greatest Warrior...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

'Stupid, stubborn & prideful' does seem to fit Eowyn pretty well too......

Eowyn learns from experience, and so I would not call her stupid. She is driven to extreme measures out of her frustration and despair, but she does change.

Turin by and large does not learn from his mistakes.

However, the comparisons being made here are among characters in very different texts, with very different styles. Eowyn differs from most of Tolkien's characters in that her characterisation appears closer to those in 'realist' fiction, with some degree of psychological motivation, while many of Tolkien's other characters operate in a very different style of characterisation. Turin, for example, would not be so tragic if he learned from his mistakes.

Boromir on the other hand does learn, but he learns too late. Maybe he's Turin 'upgraded' ('downsized'?) for a different literary style.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Eowyn learns from experience, and so I would not call her stupid. She is driven to extreme measures out of her frustration and despair, but she does change.

Turin by and large does not learn from his mistakes.

He does learn - he just learns the wrong things. And this brings up the larger question of the curse. To what extent can Turin 'learn' the right thing? Eowyn is not under Sauron's curse. Turin is driven by a belief that he can free himself from the curse he is under. He is seeking always to be free of his doom.

Turin is 'unlucky'. The choices he makes are all meant to bring about the Good. He isn't stupid at all. He is very smart, very cunning & a master strategist. He becomes a real threat to Morgoth's plans & in the end destroys his most powerful weapon. His strategy is, basically, 'the best defence is a good offence'. If Eowyn is driven by frustration & despair so is Turin most of the time.

Turin, for example, would not be so tragic if he learned from his mistakes.

As i said, he does learn from his mistakes - its the fact that he learns the wrong things from them that makes him a tragic hero - if he really learnt nothing at all from his mistakes he wouldn't be a tragic figure, he'd be an idiot & we wouldn't care about him.

And I think Turin & Eowyn are a lot closer than you imply - what if Niniel hadn't turned out to be Turin's sister - & what if Eowyn had been married before she rode to war &, after killing the Witch King it had turned out her husband was really her long lost brother?

Eowyn is 'lucky', & has a chance to learn from her mistakes, & find a new, meaningful life. Turin is 'unlucky' & doesn't. 'Call no man (or woman) lucky until he is dead' & all that.

If we're talking about greatest hero here we can't limit it either to being a nice guy, or to being lucky, or always winning. Turin is a great hero because he never gives in, always fights on, against insurmountable odds (even when he knows they are insurmountable. Being a hero doesn't mean being a nice guy who always wins. It means doing heroic things, facing the Dragon & standing your ground & not running.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by davem

If we're talking about greatest hero here we can't limit it either to being a nice guy, or to being lucky, or always winning. Turin is a great hero because he never gives in, always fights on, against insurmountable odds (even when he knows they are insurmountable. Being a hero doesn't mean being a nice guy who always wins. It means doing heroic things, facing the Dragon & standing your ground & not running.

Based on your criteria, I would place Hurin before Turin as the greatest mortal warrior. Hurin was far more selfless in his actions (particularly in the Nirnaeith Arnoediad), and defied Morgoth to his face (which was dauntless beyond measure). As someone stated previously, Tolkien refers to him as the "mightiest of the warriors of mortal men", and that's good enough for me. In addition, I was never really pleased at how Turin slew Glaurung (stabbing him while hidden underneath). It lacks the heroic stature of Azaghal standing bravely against Glaurung, Ecthelion versus Gothmog, or Hurin defiantly slaying 70 trolls without recourse to aid or escape. In that sense, I think Tolkien missed the boat and lessened the impact of Turin's deed.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Based on your criteria, I would place Hurin before Turin as the greatest mortal warrior. Hurin was far more selfless in his actions (particularly in the Nirnaeith Arnoediad), and defied Morgoth to his face (which was dauntless beyond measure). As someone stated previously, Tolkien refers to him as the "mightiest of the warriors of mortal men", and that's good enough for me. In addition, I was never really pleased at how Turin slew Glaurung (stabbing him while hidden underneath). It lacks the heroic stature of Azaghal standing bravely against Glaurung, Ecthelion versus Gothmog, or Hurin defiantly slaying 70 trolls without recourse to aid or escape. In that sense, I think Tolkien missed the boat and lessened the impact of Turin's deed.

I suppose one could argue that Hurin's defiance of Morgoth wasn't his smartest move, & provoked the curse which destroyed his family, hence one could question his intelligence. And as far as Hurin vs the Trolls & Azaghal vs Glauring against Turin vs Glaurung I would only note that Turin won.....

And that's not simply a throwaway line. It was impossible for Turin or anyone else to defeat Glaurung in a fair fight - which was Morgoth's intention. Turin's approach was the only one that had any chance of success. Of course, this wasn't a Beowulf vs the Dragon, 'St. George vs the Dragon' or even a 'Marduk vs Tiamat' 'fair fight'. It is, incidentally, very like the way Sigurd killed the Dragon Fafnir:

Sigurd succeeded by digging a pit under the trail Fáfnir used to walk to a stream and plunging his sword Gram into his heart as he walked past.

But in a way Turin's move is to be expected. Tolkien may have been steeped in legends & old lore, but (as we see from the in-fighting & realpolitik in the lead up to the Battle of Five Armies) he knew that the real world ain't like that, & that in a desperate situation, where your family & people are at risk, you do what's necessary. Turin did precisely what Beortnoth did not & took the strategically smart approach in dispatching his enemy.

This is what I meant about Turin being smart & learning from his experiences - sometimes he does learn the right thing - he faced Glaurung before in the ruins of Nargothrond & learned from that experience. Hurin would not have climbed the cliff & stabbed Glaurung in the guts, he would have faced him like Fingolfin faced Morgoth - & he would have lost in the same way. Turin defeats Glaurung by not behaving like a classic 'Hero' facing his mortal enemy, but by seeing & treating him as a bloody pest, as destructive vermin who needs eradicating to protect decent folk. Turin, in that act displays total contempt for Morgoth. Glaurung is Morgoth's greatest weapon, designed to be awesome, to inspire terror, & Turin dispatches him like Indy dispatches the swordsman in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

The killing of Glaurung is not the culmination, let alone the 'point' of the story - any more than the destruction of the Ring is the point of LotR. The point of both stories is what happens to the characters, not what they 'do', but the effect on them of what they do.

[Bêthberry]

what if Niniel hadn't turned out to be Turin's sister - & what if Eowyn had been married before she rode to war &, after killing the Witch King it had turned out her husband was really her long lost brother?

Eowyn is 'lucky', & has a chance to learn from her mistakes, & find a new, meaningful life. Turin is 'unlucky' & doesn't. 'Call no man (or woman) lucky until he is dead' & all that.

And what if the Moon and the Sun were Swiss cheese and the Light of the Simarils camembaert?

In addition, I was never really pleased at how Turin slew Glaurung (stabbing him while hidden underneath). It lacks the heroic stature of Azaghal standing bravely against Glaurung, Ecthelion versus Gothmog, or Hurin defiantly slaying 70 trolls without recourse to aid or escape. In that sense, I think Tolkien missed the boat and lessened the impact of Turin's deed.

Check out Tolkien's thoughts on heroism and chivalry and an excess of honour in his essay on The Homcoming of Beorhtnoth. While it is true that for the northern heroic spirit, warriors were expected to fight to annihilation if necessary, that desperate battle was intended to destroy or hold off the invaders, to save the people the leader was responsible for. A badge of honour, a personal sporting match, for Tolkien, would betray the people the leader was supposed to defend.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

And what if the Moon and the Sun were Swiss cheese and the Light of the Simarils camembaert?

Er, well, yes.....quite. A good point, & one definitely worth considering.

Umm.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by davem

Umm.

Didn't you mean "Mmmm"?!