Split Personality?

[Sauron the White]

from Alatar

Arguably Eomer may not have been the best judge in this matter. And again, as I've stated, these three are the best of the best at the top of their game.

I wonder if Eomer had access to the rules and regulations issued by the equal of the Middle-earth Olympic Committee? Without a doubt, records set with the aid of substances such as lembas would have been invalidated in much the same way as the recent biking scandal in Paris. Superhuman individuals hopped up on lembas with muscles which do not process gylcogen - or even need it - yeah, Eomer did not know what he was talking about.

from Folwren

I think the point that you're missing, STW, is that it is possible for the dwarf, man, and elf, but it also is very difficult. Tolkien never wrote that it was easy, and Jackson never protrayed it to be. It wasn't an everyday occurance in Rohan for someone to run so far in just three days. These three hunters had motivation and a long journey behind them, giving them will power and endurance, giving them the ability to do something that was uncommon and surprising to Eomer.

Sounds to me like you want it both ways here. Eomer was right in that it was an achievement for the ages even though
a- each of the three was in some ways non-human and had special physical gifts or abilities beyond the normal possessed by humans
b- the normal rules about running, glycogen and muscles do not apply to the three
c- they were hopped up on a special athletic performance enhancement substance which gave them prolonged strength, vigor and power
d- they may have some divine intervention assisting them as well as some here speculate that Eru himself willed it

Nope, sounds to me like its either they did something that is pretty near darn impossible or what they did was vastly overrated by Emoer who was judging them by his own standards.

I really do not think it is fair to try and have it both ways.

[Lalwendë]

From Eomer's words, expressing surprise at Aragorn's fitness, it could be that Men are the usual tortoises of Middle-earth, whereas Elves and Dwarves are the hares.

Originally Posted by Alatar

I'm guessing that the Dwarves were completely different as they were made in private by Aulë. Now, in his mind he may have had some of Eru's thinking, but from my point of view, the Dwarves were distinctly different from the other two races.

Now, we know that elves and humans can mate, meaning that at best each is a subspecies. I cannot think of any Dwarf-human/hobbit/elf cross, and so I'm guessing that they are completely different.

Not that Gimli didn't didn't consider the experiment with Galadriel...

I definitely count Elves, Men and Dwarves as distinct species - each has a different origin in terms of the Creation, and each has definite characteristics. This if course does not mean that they could not interbreed if they desired it, as there is real world evidence that homo sapiens and neanderthals could have mated, and that does not just come from the pages of a Jean M Auel novel! I have even read that the genes for red hair stem from neanderthals - though we shall quickly brush over that one. Ahem.

Originally Posted by Form

One might also add that the home sapiens of the Middle-Earth seem to break down into three very distinct subspecies themselves: homo sapiens, homo sapiens hobbitas, and homo sapiens drúadan--that is, regular man, Hobbit, and Drúadan. And, if one wants to add the Dúnedain as an effective subspecies as well, you get four.

Would they be sub-species though or simply different racial groups? Within homo sapiens we have/had a lot of physiological diversity ranging from tall slender and fair Northern Europeans to small dark pygmies - and putting aside the slightly freakish nature of the Dunedain, most of the races which come under the banner of Men seem to retain similar characteristics, even shared linguistic heritage in the case of Hobbits and the Rohirrim.

The Dunedain are more thorny though - maybe their freakish long lives can only be put down to divine intervention as there is little biological explanation for say the long life of Aragorn, besides him having a superior diet and a mega-slow metabolism.

And what about Orcses? Right can of worms...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

From Eomer's words, expressing surprise at Aragorn's fitness, it could be that Men are the usual tortoises of Middle-earth, whereas Elves and Dwarves are the hares.

Maybe Eomer was a bit shocked that Aragorn and company followed the enemy for three days on foot, being a rider or personally been inattentive.

I definitely count Elves, Men and Dwarves as distinct species - each has a different origin in terms of the Creation, and each has definite characteristics.

I understand what you mean, but always thought of the word 'species' as being a group that can interbreed, meaning that those not of that species cannot. But that definition may be antiquated.

This if course does not mean that they could not interbreed if they desired it, as there is real world evidence that homo sapiens and neanderthals could have mated, and that does not just come from the pages of a Jean M Auel novel! I have even read that the genes for red hair stem from neanderthals - though we shall quickly brush over that one. Ahem.

They're working on this issue now as seen here.

The Dunedain are more thorny though - maybe their freakish long lives can only be put down to divine intervention as there is little biological explanation for say the long life of Aragorn, besides him having a superior diet and a mega-slow metabolism.

As it could be bred out, I'm guessing it's a gene, but anything more than that I'll attribute to Eru.

And what about Orcses? Right can of worms...

They got the speed of the elves, iron-clad shoes (which allowed them to hover somewhat do to Arda's magnetic field) and the Saruman effect that lowered their wind resistance when they ran towards Orthanc.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by alatar

Maybe Eomer was a bit shocked that Aragorn and company followed the enemy for three days on foot, being a rider or personally been inattentive.

Eomer, the Horse Potato?

I understand what you mean, but always thought of the word 'species' as being a group that can interbreed, meaning that those not of that species cannot. But that definition may be antiquated.

I'm thinking along the lines of each species having a latinate name - this does not mean, like you say, that they cannot interbreed, as Lions and Tigers are distinct species but can breed. Likewise a horse and a donkey can produce a Mule - but the Mule, interestingly, is sterile. However you could not get all species to interbreed, e.g. a cat and a dog. Maybe we see no Dwarf combos with other species as they physically cannot manage the 'act'? Or maybe it was the beards?

As it could be bred out, I'm guessing it's a gene, but anything more than that I'll attribute to Eru.

True, and this could be accounted for when the text tells us that bloodlines have become 'dilute'.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

However you could not get all species to interbreed, e.g. a cat and a dog.

It's their different tastes in music that keeps them from even dancing together.

Maybe we see no Dwarf combos with other species as they physically cannot manage the 'act'? Or maybe it was the beards?

Are male dwarves attracted to females of other races? Seems that Gimli gives a hint of that. Are Dwarven females attracted to males of other races? Seems that they're not much attracted to even their own kind, but lacking any evidence I cannot say more. Do any AD&D like games support half-dwarves?

True, and this could be accounted for when the text tells us that bloodlines have become 'dilute'.

That's exactly why I stated that. Plus it's said that in some the 'gene' is recessive and only certain combinations of persons produce long-lived children in the Mendellian sense.

[Finduilas]

Does anyone find it amusing that Gollum hasn't been meantioned for about two pages?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Finduilas

Does anyone find it amusing that Gollum hasn't been meantioned for about two pages?

Who? And how fast can he run?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I have even read that the genes for red hair stem from neanderthals - though we shall quickly brush over that one. Ahem.

An update regarding Neanderthals and red hair can be found here. Also, they may have even worn large yellow boots, but that's still conjecture.

And regarding power, can we ask the opposite question: If one were completely powerless (relatively), would that mean that one could not become evil/corrupted? Seems to me that even those lowly on the pole still have that choice.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

What about Smeagol, then? Or for that matter Lotho Sackville-Baggins?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

What about Smeagol, then? Or for that matter Lotho Sackville-Baggins?

I'm sorry; what's the question?

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Nope, sounds to me like its either they did something that is pretty near darn impossible or what they did was vastly overrated by Emoer who was judging them by his own standards.

I really do not think it is fair to try and have it both ways.

Very well. Think what you want. I'm through.

[Sauron the White]

Folwren ... I am not trying to get you angry or bait you. Forgive me if you think that. All I am trying to do is to take the varied explainations for the Three Hunters achievement and compare it to the evaluation given by Eomer. Either he is right or he is grossly overstating the achievement because of his ignorance to the special circumstances involved. He is making the same mistake some here have accused me of, namely juding the Three Hunters by normal human standards.

Okay, thats not all I am trying to do. I have far more complex intentions.

What I really want to do here is to get everyone to admit that this whole willing suspension of disbelief thing, this magic thing, this special quality of JRRT's world thing, seems to cover an infinite amount of ground. One way or another it explains all the questions, all the apparent contradictions, all the paradoxes, and all that some would call holes in the story. Its like a huge catch-all that can be employed to make Middle-earth work no matter what logic or reason or even internal story contradictions mayy otherwise tell us.

And I have no problem with that. I just want equal liberty given to the other LOTR - the one in the movies. Whats good for the goose should be good for the gander.

[Folwren]

STW, you shouldn't apologize. I was in the wrong. Sorry for losing my temper. I believe I may have misunderstood something.

I doubt you'll get everyone to admit about the double standard. Sorry again.

-- Folwren

[Sauron the White]

Folwren
thank you for your last post. No harm no foul. I admit I am pushing things to force the issue so a little anger now and then is partly my fault.