Silmarillion-movie?

[Sauron the White]

from davem

This is why one of the illustrations for LotR (facing page 576) is just a painting of a stream, rather than an action shot. In other words, he puts his illustrations in the service of the text.

If an illustrator does their job correctly, EVERY ILLUSTRATION should be in the service of the text. None of the ones I suggested violate this rule. Perhaps you and I have a different approach to illustration. The Lee illustration in LOTR of a stream may serve as an example. I have no problem with Lee wanting to do that scene. However, I would ask for a simple addition to give it some meaning within the realm of Middle-earth. What makes this stream stand out as something in Middle-earth as opposed to just any old stream illustration that the artist may have had laying in a drawer? In other words, make it related to Middle-earth or something very specific that can be identified by the reader. I do concede that in a massive undertaking such as the illustration of the complete LOTR, one can get away with several purely atmospheric shots that do not necessarily depict key or dramatic moments in the text.

While your suggestions are interesting, there's no evidence that Lee had any desire to paint those pictures but was stopped from doing so. Lee has stated that his approach is to let the author tell the story, & that his images are designed to help establish the 'mood' of the story rather than dominate it - which I suspect your suggestions would.

My list of suggestions was merely to comply with you asking me what illustrations I would have preferred. I made no charge that Lee wanted to do any of these or was stopped from doing any of the ones on my list of ten. Of course, we do not know if he wanted to do any of these or not. I suspect that you and I want different things in illustration. It seems - and correct me if I am wrong - that you favor some type of setting the mood or getting the atmosphere of the tale. I first want the more dramatic moments depicted and then a minority of mood pieces to flesh things out a bit. Perhaps our priorities are reversed. If so, that would explain some things and why we have such differing opinions.

None of them 'over emphasise' the dark & monstrous, but they didn't fit with Lee's 'rule' - there wasn't a plate available opposite the pages where those events are described.

While that explaination may suffice for the color plates, there are no such restrictions on the b&w pieces. The illustrator seemed to have a free reign in that regard. The color plates do appear after every 16 pages. I really have no objection to having an illustration on one facing page while the text may be a few pages apart from it. Some of the greatest book illustrators in history such as N.C. Wyeth and Arthur Rackham worked that way and it worked out wonderfully for both illustrator and reader. Speaking for myself, I would think it is far more important to come up with a great illustration of a key scene than it is merely to have an illustration fall opposite the text. Are we that stupid that we cannot accept an illustration if the text is not right there with arrows pointing to it? I certainly hope not.

My question wasn't what images you wanted to see, but what kind of images - ie, whether you really wanted to see close ups of graphic violence & such or not.

That would depend on the scene. Despite your protestations to the contrary, there are some gruesome images and descriptions in JRRT's writings. In CofH, on page 55 -

"And they hewed off Gelmir's arms and legs, and left him". Now that is pretty up front in your face gruesome.

I greatly prefer more panoramic shots which get in lots of figures, landscape or architecture and other elements. Alan Lee's Helms Deep illustration is my idea of a perfect battle illustration. I am not looking for a close-up of Gelmir's chopped off limbs in a perfect cross section so we can see blood pumping from veins and see the bone as if in a Christmas ham. But I do not want scenes with violence to be ignored altogether or shoved to the back of the bus. They can be handled with taste and class as JRRT wrote them. Perhaps we can agree on that.

[davem]

Alan Lee:

My chief concern in illustrating LotR was in attempting to provide a visual accompaniment for the story without interfering with, or dislodging, the pictures the author is carefully building up in the reader's mind. i felt that my task lay in shadowing the heroes on their epic quest, often at a distance, closing in on them at times of heightened emotion but avoiding trying to re-create the dramatic high points of the text.....

Such considerations were made simpler by technical ones. Printed seperately on a coated art paper, the pictures had to be positioned at intervals of sixteen or thirty two pages throughout the book. This limitation was recieved gratefully & probably saved weeks of fruitless agonising over which moments to illustrate.

It was important that every picture should be relevant to the text on the opposite page. (from 'Tolkien's World: Paintings of Middle-earth')

As to the B&W illustrations in CoH, Lee has chosen to top & tail the chapters with 'mood pieces'. Its clearly been his approach to Tolkien illustration all along, so I don't see how we can criticise his choice. If you choose AL to illustrate a Tolkien book this is the kind of illustration you'll get. You can complain about the choice of AL as artist, but not about the way he'll illustrate the book.

As to the 'Gelmir' thing, I find it actually more horrible in Tolkien's stark description than it could ever be in any illustration. Also, & I think this is a significant point, some readers have both a more graphic imagination & a stronger stomach than others, & what would be a perfectly acceptable illustration for some readers would be totally unnacceptable to others. Even reading about the death of Gelmir some readers will visualise that in long shot (or not at all) while others picture it in the most extreme & gory close up with blood spurting, hacked off limbs twitching & Gelmir's face contorted in an agonised scream. The text leaves the reader free to imagine the scene as they will, but any illustration would fix a particular image for the reader - which is why AL prefers (according to what he has said) to 'keep his distance'.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Interesting discussion (and I guess I posted in it once upon a time), though I'm not sure it's going anywhere. Incidentally, davem, your quote from the JRRT Letter at the end of page 1 made me smile; that letter is one of my absolute favorites. "Why is such a woman let loose?" makes me want to burst out laughing every time I read it. Tolkien is delightful to read in correspondence as well as in mythmaking.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Elladan and Elrohir

Interesting discussion (and I guess I posted in it once upon a time), though I'm not sure it's going anywhere.

It doesn't have to go anywhere if its interesting. The utilitarian approach to threads usually leads to a dead end. You discuss till you reach a consensus & then it stops & everyone toddles off to find another topic to reach a consensus on. Humour, challenge, taking your opponents points off at tangents, dismantling them & throwing them right back. Much more interesting. The original point of this thread was left behind a long time ago, because there wasn't much anyone could do with it - or at least there wasn't much anyone wanted to do with it. When StW & I started our little discussion it took off.

Ultimately, of course, our argument can't go anywhere but round in circles, because we're arguing over matters of personal taste. If, however, we manage to do it entertainingly people will read it. Luckily (as you've probably noticed) we're both sharp enough & clever enough (though I say meself, as shouldn't) to be able to keep interest in the debate. I join in debates like this (as I've stated on numerous occasions) because I find them entertaining & because I genuinely like & respect the person I'm arguing with. If I didn't I'd just ignore what they had to say & do something else.

Anyway, back to the topic:

StW is completely wrong about this subject, I'm right & I'm pretty sure Tolkien would agree with me on this one......

[Sauron the White]

davem .. I agree with you 100% that JRRT himself would agree with your position on illustration. And as has been well established, JRRT was a first rate writer, a genius when it came to creating worlds, and a rather mediocre to poor illustrator.