Orcseys - always Evil?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Let me explain. What I meant was (and that was also the "awful" part), that you made it sound like a mechanic process, sort of a "reconditioning camp". Now that would be really awful. For the Elves, they went where they longed, to see the light of the Trees and everything, to finally rest after the long years in the fading world.

But what of the ones that were taken by Melkor and changed? It is these poor souls that I was hoping to recondition. Or is it that they had, willingly, started down Melkor's road, and by the time that they figured out that it wasn't a good thing, found that they were caught? How long, starting from a few of Feanor's sons, would it take to get something like an orc? And just how far from the original captive does one have to be to be no longer welcomed on those Western Shores?

This is assuming that Melkor made orcs from elves, as it seems later that he was only interested in making his elvish captive slaves.

I mean - of course not if they chose it themselves, like Frodo or others. If an Orc - in Middle-Earth - changed his mind, became "good" and everything, then as a sort of "reward" he could be allowed to go to Eressëa. Wonderful thing. But you made it sound to me like a bunch of Elves arriving with large ships and "Come on, all Orcs, pick the green armbands, yes, line up here, please, and to the ship. Yes, sir, over there. Large Orcs to the large ships, small Orcs to the smaller ships. No, sir, this ship is full. Eighty passengers maximum. Proceed to the next one, please..."

I wouldn't sort by size, as with Osse running about, I'd hate to lose a whole subspecies of orc, and end up, in the end, having only revived the pygmy orcs for all my troubles.

But if the orcs were given a chance between going on the ship for rehabilitation or death (either by the hands of the Elves or the orcs' masters), what then would they choose? Maybe I watched too many TV dramas where a group rescues a person from a cult by whatever means possible for the person's own good, assuming that the person no longer possesses the means by which to make a real choice.

And your last bit made sense - it must have been early for me.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by alatar

Or is it that they had, willingly, started down Melkor's road, and by the time that they figured out that it wasn't a good thing, found that they were caught? How long, starting from a few of Feanor's sons, would it take to get something like an orc? And just how far from the original captive does one have to be to be no longer welcomed on those Western Shores?

Concerning the bolded part, Tolkien stated that no elf ever served Melkor willingly:

Originally Posted by Note 9, Quendi and Eldar, HoME XI

The implication that as opposed to Celbin the Moerbin were allies of Morgoth, or at least of dubious loyalty, was, however, untrue with regard to the Avari. No Elf of any kind ever sided with Morgoth of free will, though under torture or the stress of great fear, or deluded by lies, they might obey his commands: but this applied also to Celbin.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Concerning the bolded part, Tolkien stated that no elf ever served Melkor willingly:

Maybe I'm mixing up my Sil and HoME, but just how did Gondolin fall? And the sons of Feanor, though foes of Morgoth, weren't exemplars of good conduct.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by alatar

Maybe I'm mixing up my Sil and HoME, but just how did Gondolin fall? And the sons of Feanor, though foes of Morgoth, weren't exemplars of good conduct.

Well, his treachery falls under the conditions of the Quendi and Eldar (fear of torment):

Originally Posted by Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin

... it came to pass, as fate willed, that Maeglin was taken prisoner by Orcs, and brought to Angband, Maeglin was no weakling or craven, but the torment wherewith he was threatened cowed his spirit, and he purchased his life and freedom by revealing to Morgoth the very place of Gondolin and the ways whereby it might be found and assailed.

And the sons of Feanor, though foes of Morgoth, weren't exemplars of good conduct.

I agree, they weren't. However, I would opine that their oath and the curse is what led them astray, not a desire to serve Melkor. Then again, you might be right if we give "going down Melkor's road" a large enough meaning - i.e. turning towards evil, for one reason or another. But on the strictest of senses, I would say it was not the case.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Well, his treachery falls under the conditions of the Quendi and Eldar (fear of torment):

Surely it had nothing to do with Tuor and Maeglin's desire for Idril (or was that HoME?). So Maegil's exempted because he bought his life (temporarily) with the blood of Turgon and the millions of Gondolindrim who perished at the fall of the city.

I agree, they weren't. However, I would opine that their oath and the curse is what led them astray, not a desire to serve Melkor. Then again, you might be right if we give "going down Melkor's road" a large enough meaning - i.e. turning towards evil, for one reason or another. But on the strictest of senses, I would say it was not the case.

True - they didn't serve Melkor, but from their actions, it's hard to see how they could have done his work any better. So in the less strict sense, if an elf can work against Eru (or however you want to phrase it), and yet go west, why cannot the orcs, who, again assuming that they were taken and corrupted by Melkor? Ungoliant served Melkor when it served her purpose. She was evil, yet not always his pet.

Where do we draw the thin red line?

[Findegil]

Sadly as it is, it is true there are many way of evil even in Middle-Earth and serving Melkor is only one. For sure many of the Noldor went a good way down the wrong road. But all elves had a choice, at least after their death: they could follow the way Iluvatar had paved for them and go to the halls of Mandos to be judged and redeemed (the halls of Mandos were a kind of a purgatory and not part of paradise) or they could after their death (further) rebel against Iluvatars authority and deny that road. In one of the HoM-E volumes were are told that elves that did not follow Mandos call were easily cached by Melkor to serve him since he was the prime rebel against Iluvatar.

For Orcs that means in my opinion: The first generation that was transformed from Elves did never leave their prison alive. Dieing they would surely choose to go to Mandos and they would be redeemed. But they would naturally not speak much about their former lives. First of all part of the process of redemption would be a at least partial lose of the most horrible memory. And second who would be willing to listen too such a story? Of course the Valar especially Mandos and Nienna but from the Elves of Valinor? Anyway we do not know when the first of them died nor who long it took to redeem him or her in Mandos. Probably non of them left Mandos before the end of the First Age.
The later generations might have chosen to stay with Melkor even after death and thus became dragged further down. For such beings redemption must, in my opinion, wait until the last end of Arda when the elves will die indeed and have to deepened only on pure estel. But if they chose to go to Mandos, I don't think that these way was ever closed in the face of any elf. But we hear from some elves that they would never be released from Mandos within the time of Arda (Finwe and his son Fëanor, for completely different reasons). Thus redemption could take very long if on was fixed in his own evil ways or it could be even impossible with in Arda. We hear from other elves that they did not desire a reincarnation and that could be true for Orcs as well, if they once understood what crime against their own people they had committed.

As a last remark: In my view the number of Orcs with pure elvish blood would have been very small indeed. From what I understood of Tolkiens later scripts the main source for Orcs would have been men, as soon they were available. And as soon as the Orcs were of mixed origin the way to the west was blocked from them in life and in death.
A remorseful reversal in life would be very difficult indeed. Either the remorse Orc would be killed by his companions or he would cast out of any community.
And in death he would go straight away to Iluvatar. Who could say what awaited the Orcs on this road? But estel is not restricted to the good guys! It depends on the believe that Iluvatar likes his creation and will not let it suffer for ever from what ever evil befalls it nor will he deliver even part of his creation for ever to Melkor or any other rebel against his authority.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by alatar

Surely it had nothing to do with Tuor and Maeglin's desire for Idril

True, but this seems to come from a source mightier than Maeglin himself - the curse of Mandos:

Originally Posted by Of Maeglin, Silmarillion

And however that might be, Idril loved Maeglin not at all; and knowing his thought of her she loved him the less. For it seemed to her a thing strange and crooked in him, as indeed the Eldar ever since have deemed it: an evil fruit of the Kinslaying, whereby the shadow of the curse of Mandos fell upon the last hope of the Noldor.

So in the less strict sense, if an elf can work against Eru (or however you want to phrase it), and yet go west, why cannot the orcs, who, again assuming that they were taken and corrupted by Melkor?

If the orcs still have souls (and thus preserve their status as Children of Eru), then I believe you are right:

Originally Posted by Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth

If we are indeed the Eruhin, the Children of the One, then He will not suffer Himself to be deprived of His own, not by any Enemy, not even by ourselves.